You Guys Wanna Hear About Some Custom Speakers?

[FirstReflect]

I've been a big fan of Ascend speakers for a long time. Fell in love with the CBM-170 (the originals, not even the "SE" versions!) a long time ago, and I've remained a fan ever since.

But I had no idea just how far Mr. Fabrikant is willing to go in order to satisfy his customers and make their speaker dreams come true! Ascend doesn't immediately present itself as a custom speaker company. They've got their lineup of speakers, and they're all tremendous performers and value!

But it just so happened that my IDEAL setup required customizations to each and every speaker that I wanted to buy! Folks, here is what's on my Ascend Acoustics sales order :)

(2) x Custom "Low-profile" Horizon Main speakers in a vertical orientation: 32.5" tall x 8.5" wide x 11.5" deep - front slot ported. RAAL ribbon tweeters with the mid-range drivers above the tweeters (just like the Sierra Towers). Matte Black finish.

(1) x Custom "Skinny" Horizon Center speaker: 11" tall x 40" wide (:eek:) x 7.5" deep (:eek::eek::eek:) - front slot ported. RAAL ribbon tweeter. Tweeter above the mid-range driver (just like standard Horizon). Matte Black finish.

(6) x Custom Finish Sierra-1 Surround, Surround Back & Front Height speakers. NrT tweeters in all 6. Q-Plugs in all 6. And a custom Matte Black finish for all 6.

(2) x Custom Sierra-1 Front Wide speakers. RAAL ribbon tweeters. Same mid-range drivers as the Horizon speakers! Q-Plugs for the pair. Custom Matte Black finish.

Yes, indeed, folks! Every single one of the 11 speakers I am ordering is custom in some way! The Sierra-1 NrT speakers are the most "normal". But even those are getting a custom Matte Black finish.

And honestly, check out that "skinny" Horizon Center, and the super custom RAAL ribbon and Horizon mid-range Sierra-1 bookshelf Wides! Now THAT'S some seriously customized work!

Truthfully, I never expected Dave to take on this much work. But he wasn't just open to it, he seems to genuinely get a kick out of it! As I mentioned in the Sierra Horizon sticky thread on this forum, he even worked up a CAD plan for the "skinny" Horizon that I wanted before he even knew if I would buy the darn thing!

Just tremendous.

And the price? I won't give the exact figure here out of respect, but believe me when I say that it was considerably lower than what I had imagined, what I would expect to pay anywhere else for this type of design and these types of parts, and lower than what I was prepared to pay. You can probably imagine, it's a pretty good chunk o' change. But for what I'm getting, and for all the service that Mr. Fabrikant has provided? It's a bargain. And the sound quality of these speakers all working together is going to be second to none!

Speaking of service, I'm truly just amazed at how patient, courteous, open and willing Dave and Dina have been. I've no idea where Dave finds the time to take on an order like this first hand! The money he'll be making from my order isn't nothing, but it's definitely not so much that most people would put in the time and effort that he has. Certainly no one so busy!

And I haven't been the easiest client. I wanted everything "just so". Like I say, every single one of these speakers is custom in some way, and the "skinny" is basically a one-off! And, on top of that, I'm in Canada, and I use a strictly online-only bank, which has created some rather unexpected headaches when it comes to getting the payment ready. Dina and Dave have both been unbelievably patient and considerate - wanting to make absolutely sure that I pay the minimum possible in fees, and going well out of their way to accommodate my somewhat odd banking hurdles.

To say I am excited and happy is a massive understatement. This is a genuine "dream system" I will be getting here. But what REALLY makes me happy is that I am buying it from such wonderful people. THAT turns a pleasure into a joy.

:D :D :D

[Mag_Neato]

Wow! Cha-ching$$$!!

Sounds like this will be an awesome setup. Did you run out of budget for a pair of 15" Rythmiks?

[FirstReflect]

Thanks, Mag_Neato!

Nope, didn't run out of budget for subs; I already have a pair of SVSound PC13-Ultra DSP Sledge cylinder subs. Those shall suffice :D

[merrymaid520]

Quite the setup, congrats to you! Looking forward to some pics after its all up and running.

[FirstReflect]

Thanks, merrymaid520!

Yup, it's going to be very impressive. I fully expect the, "my god, it's full of...speakers" reaction from anyone who visits :D

[kinggimp82]

What size room will you be putting this beast in?

[FirstReflect]

For now, a small one - 13' x 16' x 8' roughly. Enclosed. And rather heavily treated with acoustic panels and bass traps.

But this speaker system will also be with me for a long, long time to come, hopefully :) My house is still 3 years away, but these will surely be coming with me at that time. In the meantime, I'll be making great use of the RAALs' lower volume output detail :D

[JustABrah]

We want pics when you get it all setup!!

[FirstReflect]

Woohoo!

Well, my deposit cheque is cleared, and my order is underway! Dave and Dina have kindly offered to give me regular updates along the way, so I plan on sharing those here :D

Can't believe how much custom work this wound up being. Depending on how all the timing works out, my dedicated theater room (a converted 2nd bedroom in my apartment ;) ) might still be under renovation when the speakers ship. So my first pics might be a temporary setup in my den :p Lots of renos and building going on in my life - haha. But one way or another, I'll get all these beauties fired up as soon as they arrive! Should be around 8 weeks, I believe.

Let the countdown begin!

:D :D :D

[FirstReflect]

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So, here are a few sketches of the custom "skinny" Horizon Center!

Please note: some critical internal details and measurements have been removed from these drawings.

Dave has done a tremendous amount of work on the CAD drawings, and that work needs to be protected (it wouldn't be right for someone else to just come along and pilfer his unique designs and work!). So, if you look at these sketches and figure some details might be missing, you are right! ;)

But the point here is just to tease, and get an idea of what this beauty will look like when it's built! And man oh man, I'm drooling over this thing :p

As you can see in the last image (which is a top-down view), the cabinet is a mere 7.50" from front to back, and it's a very tight squeeze to get the sealed mid-range chamber and the space for the RAAL ribbon tweeter in there! There is ZERO room for error in making this cabinet!

Personally, I love the look of the front slot ports on the far left and right sides. And I think the front fascia just looks gorgeous, with the woofers nicely spaced apart to make the unusually wide 40" stance look completely natural.

I'm jazzed! :D And I can't wait to hear from Dave as to how the build goes!

[FirstReflect]

Woo!

So here's a pic I got from Dave for one of my custom Sierra-1 bookshelf speakers! This uses the RAAL 70-20XR tweeter AND the Sierra Tower midrange driver! I will be using this pair as my Front Wide speakers to give me a perfect midrange and treble match to my Front 3 speakers! But I'll be darned if they don't look so darn sexy, now I'm thinking how much I'd like to use them as main speakers - haha. And am I crazy, or do those Sierra-1 cabinets look awesome in the custom matte black finish.

I'm excited :D

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[eliwankenobi]

That looks great! Looking forward to your custom center!!

[Dark Ranger]

OMG!!

Want! :D

[FirstReflect]

I don't think I even need to say anything...

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[Dark Ranger]

Wow, very impressive. You, sir, need to host a block party once your pallet 'o speakers arrives. I'll bring beer, ribs, pheasant, veal, whatever you want....just please let me bask in the magnificence of these wonderful custom speakers. :p:D

Can someone pass me a napkin, please? I'm drooling again.

[FirstReflect]

I know, right? :D

I really, really need my house to be move-in ready, like, NOW! haha. This little apartment is NOT going to cut it :p

Actually, I kind of can't wait to cram all 11 speakers, my 2 PC13-Ultra subs and my Onkyo TX-NR5010 + ATI AT1805 amp into my tiny apartment theatre. It's going to look hilarious!

I've definitely jumped the gun a bit with this speaker purchase :p But I'm still glad I did it. These are going to last me a long, long time. And once I move into my house, I'm sure other things will take priority, and I might not have gotten around to putting together my dream speaker system for a while! But this way, I'm all set :D

[eliwankenobi]

Are those still bamboo cabinets or MDF?

[davef]

Are those still bamboo cabinets or MDF?

Bamboo :)

[FirstReflect]

Yup, still bamboo. I just went for the matte black finish ;)

I do believe some of the internal bracing is MDF, though.

[Dark Ranger]

Actually, I kind of can't wait to cram all 11 speakers, my 2 PC13-Ultra subs and my Onkyo TX-NR5010 + ATI AT1805 amp into my tiny apartment theatre. It's going to look hilarious!

I thought my room was kind of cramped with all the electronics and speakers in here, but you've got me beat. Can't wait to see it all set up in your apartment!

You answered my unasked question, too. I was wondering what you were going to drive the Ascends with. I was also going to ask what surrounds you picked out, but I found the answer on page 1. You're gonna have one outstandingly fantastical system. Heh, I'm bouncing out of my chair with excitement and these aren't even for me! :D

[eRob]

They look great. Can't wait to see how you utilize these custom sizes in your setup.

[FirstReflect]

These are likely the last photos before my speakers ship!

Just waiting on the "Skinny" Horizon Center to be all assembled and tested!

In the mean time, prepare to drool...

Ready?

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And just to round out the set, here's a row of custom matte black finish Sierra-1 NrT speakers :D

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Almost there!

[Dark Ranger]

Excellent pics, thanks for sharing with us!

For your satisfaction, I've taken the liberty of redirecting your shipment to my house first. I will perform critical evaluations over the next 120 days to ensure these loudspeakers meet your stringent requirements. After I've sufficiently drooled over them, I will repack and ship to your residence. :p

[FirstReflect]

Sounds good, Jacob! Shall I forward my Onkyo TX-NR5010 and ATI AT1805 to you so that you can evaluate the entire signal chain?

:p

[Dark Ranger]

You betcha! It's the only way to be sure. I'm glad we see eye to eye on this. :D

Seriously, I can't wait to read your comments once everything is installed. I know these will rock your socks off. The ensuing review and feedback will be legendary, exceeding 3 forum pages in length. No wait, that's entirely incorrect. You'll be SPEECHLESS (for once, right?). It will take your breath away and you'll be reduced to Cave Man grunts. The logical/reasoning side of your brain will go into an infinite reboot loop as it tries to cope with the effects of Reaching the Peak of Audio Purity.

*ahem*

[markie]

The first thing I thought of when I saw all of Jonathon's Sierra 1 NRTs together was - "standing army". Defeating the enemy of sound mediocrity, of course. :)

I looked back through this thread and just saw the pic of Jonathon's custom made "front wide" speakers, with the cabinet of the Sierra 1 but with a RAAL 70 20XR (?) tweeter and the same midrange driver as the towers, to more closely match them in that critical range.

Immediately I thought that it might be a foretaste of the Sierra 2! I'm thinking that the Sierra 2's woofer might be somewhat modified from the one in the tower, to reach lower, but other than that, pretty much the same! That way, the Sierra 2s would be that much more of a seamless match with the towers. All guesses of course.

Congrats on an such an inspiring and bold purchase!

Mark

[FirstReflect]

Thanks!

Yup, those Front Wides were a truly unexpected choice. I made it clear to Dave that my absolute top priority was to have as close to a perfectly matching midrange and treble of the Front 3 Sierra Horizon RAAL speakers as is possible.

I asked whether that would be the Sierra-1 NrT, the upcoming Sierra-2, or just a Sierra-1 with the RAAL 70-20XR tweeter. Dave responded by telling me that if bass extension below 90-100Hz or so was of no concern, using the RAAL 70-20XR with the Sierra Tower midrange driver was the way to go. Clearly, I followed his advice ;)

Dave said flat out that this custom Sierra bookshelf with the RAAL 70-20XR and Sierra Tower midrange driver would be a better match in the midrange and treble to the Sierra Horizon RAAL speakers than the Sierra-2, or any other variation of the Sierra-1. So, when speculating about the Sierra-2, I would take that into account.

I just made the final payment for all 11 speakers. So, I'm not looking to upgrade in the immediate future -- haha. But don't think for a second that upgrading those 6 custom matte black finish Sierra-1 NrT speakers hasn't crossed my mind!

For me, it has never been as critical to have a PERFECT midrange and treble match in the Surround, Surround Back, and Front Height speakers. All of those speakers are in elevated positions, and typically very close to at least one wall. So identical response to the Front 3 speakers is never going to happen, regardless! Dave seems to be largely in agreement with me, as he'll often recommend a different model of speaker for the Surrounds vs. the Front 3. Dave's already said that he thinks the Sierra-2 will become the ideal choice for a Surround speaker to match with the Sierra Tower RAAL and Sierra Horizon RAAL. But, as I've already mentioned, even the Sierra-2 is not a PERFECT midrange and treble match. So, some amount of difference is clearly expected.

For me, whether I eventually upgrade my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to Sierra-2 will all come down to the vertical dispersion. The RAAL ribbons already buck the trend of most other ribbon tweeters by having very wide horizontal dispersion, whereas most other ribbon tweeters are quite "beam-y" with narrow horizontal dispersion. But, to my knowledge, the NrT still has taller vertical dispersion than the RAAL ribbons. So, in the elevated positions, I still think that might be a bigger benefit.

However, I certainly do not know for sure! For the Surround speakers, I have a feeling I'll be compelled to upgrade to the Sierra-2 to get that closer sonic match. The Surround Backs and Front Heights, though. Those are going to be a tougher sell. They're used so infrequently already. I could see myself upgrading the Surround Backs, too, some day, just for the heck of it, really -- haha. But, truthfully, I've found Front Height speakers to be of so little use and value, I'd REALLY have to hear something special in a Surround and Surround Back upgrade before I'd be convinced to upgrade the Heights, too. That said, if the Sierra-2's ribbon tweeter DOES have reduced vertical dispersion compared to the NrT, that might actually be the position that would benefit the most! Since they're so close to the ceiling, even mounted upside down and angled, the Front Heights are subject to some pretty strong early reflections.

So, heck, I might have just already convinced myself of another 6 speaker upgrades! haha. But, seriously, I'm going to enjoy the Sierra-1 NrT for a good while first. Nice to know there's still SOME other speaker upgrade waiting for me if I want it, though! Now, bring on Dolby Atmos at home so I have a good excuse to get 53 more speakers! :D I'm sure Dave would accommodate me -- haha.

[rsmt2000]

Now, bring on Dolby Atmos at home so I have a good excuse to get 53 more speakers! :D I'm sure Dave would accommodate me -- haha.

Not sure about Dave but Dark Ranger/Jacob will sure do:p

[FirstReflect]

So...

shipping will take place next week! Dave and I were hoping for today (Friday, Aug.09, 2013), but safety is FAR more important than expediency! So measures are being taken to make sure that all of my speakers arrive safely!

While, naturally, the wait is tough, the good news is that we get a few photos of the finished "Skinny" Horizon Center!

Behold:

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There it is from the front, looking like the BEAST that it is!

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There it is from the back, getting measured by a lucky microphone ;)

And...

wait for it...

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Look! There it is in Dave's demo room!

And, hey, look at Dave's new TV! Remember this guy (http://youtu.be/vY2XV8oqSqE?t=1m27s) from before?

I had to laugh 'cause I was picturing how absurd the "Skinny" would look sitting beneath that tiny old CRT :D I kinda woulda loved it -- just for the juxtaposition -- haha.

Anywho, that should be it until they ship and arrive!

Wish me luck!

[rsmt2000]

Hi Jonathan

Just wondering if you had a chance to fire up the new toys yet ?

-Ron

[FirstReflect]

Not yet! As it turns out, they are just shipping out from Ascend's warehouse today! Extra time was needed to arrange a pallet and freight truck shipping. So I should have them early next week!

[FirstReflect]

Whelp, here come my new bundles of joy!

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That's over 400 lbs of goodness, if the UPS shipment information is accurate ;)

Everything certainly appears to be well-packed. Fingers crossed that there's no careless UPS forklift driver to ram a forklift tine through that pallet! Had that happen to me when I got my SVSound PC13-Ultra subs a while back. So, I know all too well that it can happen! But, as far as what Ascend is able to do on their end, they've done everything they can, everything I'd expect, and more.

So, next week is the big week for me! Please keep my precious cargo in your prayers -- haha :D

[Dark Ranger]

Outstanding pics! That's a huge bundle of love right there. :D

I'll definitely be keeping your cargo in mind and trust it will arrive safely. Let us know when it arrives so I can breathe a big sigh of relief. Also, be sure to post pictures of the UPS truck rolling up, unloading the pallet, unwrapping the plastic, unboxing each speaker, and the passing out from the sheer beauty... :p

Waiting with baited breath!!

[billy p]

Whoa...that is one very well put together pallet with easy to read warning labels for all to read & adhere too...I hope it arrives the same way it left the Ascend wherehouse and safely to your front door.:)

Congrats man that is one impressive array of speakers coming your way!:cool:

Re: Bill

[curtis]

Jonathan...where do you live? I bet we can get a group there to "wait" for your delivery. :)

[Dark Ranger]

Paging Jonathan to the white courtesy phone! We need updates! Have they crossed the border? Was the UPS truck chased by moose wanting to sample the bamboo wood? Have the speakers made it safely through Bat Country?

I found a webcam capture of your UPS drivers as they navigated through dangerous territory:

http://i.imgur.com/CnUaf.jpg

No cost was spared in order to deliver your custom speakers in record time:

http://www.foundshit.com/pictures/cars/ups-flames-truck.jpg

:cool:

[FirstReflect]

They cleared customs and crossed the border just before midnight last night! Delivery should be today.

:D

[Dark Ranger]

Outstanding news!!!

Thanks for the update. I'm bouncing off the walls here. :p

[FirstReflect]

Whelp, we'll both have to bounce off the walls for several more hours. UPS called this morning. For whatever reason, they couldn't schedule the delivery until tomorrow :mad:

But, it's all ok. I've got confirmation now that they'll be here between 09:00 and 12 noon tomorrow, and it's my day off, anyway, so it all works out -- haha.

[Dark Ranger]

Well, that's a bummer. Me thinks the UPS staff just wants to try out your new speakers in the sorting warehouse. :D

I suppose it's a very minor glitch in the grand scheme of things. Soon this will be a distant blip in your memory... Thanks for the update anyway.

It's nice that you get tomorrow off. I know what you'll be dreaming about tonight!

[FirstReflect]

Ok! So, yes, the speakers did arrive!

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Sorry I don't have more pics yet! I am extremely busy this week. Plus, I have to get Dave's thank you gift ready!

All I had time to do today after they arrived was make sure that they are functional and have a really quick listen to the front 3.

So, I'm no where near set up just yet. But how about some super early impressions?

:D

To put it simply, I'm blown away by the vertical "low-profile" Horizon RAAL L/R Front speakers! With just a quick, quick listen, I'm instantly relieved and ecstatic!

I am no bass head. I'm practically the opposite of a bass head! haha. I tend to focus on upper treble detail, and just overall realism. So, when the first thing I say about the Horizon Fronts is that their bass is astoundingly good, that really means something! It's seriously making me question exactly where I want to cross over the fronts to my PC13-Ultra subwoofers!

On the opposite end of the spectrum, the RAAL tweeters are worth every penny and then some! I have been searching for this level of realism for a long time now. I use a John Williams track from the Jurassic Park soundtrack that has a glockenspiel in it as a reference track. I have never heard that glockenspiel reproduced perfectly...until now! A glockenspiel has such a characteristic sound that is extremely difficult to reproduce. On all other speakers I've tried, it's too harsh, or not harsh enough; too quiet, or too present. Never "just right". But when you hear it reproduced perfectly, it just "clicks", and you know it ;)

High hats reproduction is worth the price of these speakers alone. Again, just "real" and perfect.

At the moment, the Front L/R sound a bit warm, rather than strictly neutral. But that is due to the hasty placement ;) I don't yet have them elevated at the perfect height, and they're a bit close to the side walls, so that's reinforcing the bass, which is creating that extra warmth, methinks.

Finally, the off axis response is excellent. I got a good 45 degrees off axis before there was a clear change in the timbre. That's simply amazing for a ribbon tweeter!

The "skinny" Center is something to behold! My super quick placement has it higher than it will be in proper use. As such, it doesn't sound as warm as the Front L/R at the moment, but it basically sounds how I want and expect the Front L/R to sound once I have everything properly placed! It's got a very neutral sound, and the midrange and treble match the Front L/R perfectly.

The off axis response of the skinny Center is very impressive for such a wide and large speaker. I got to about 35 degrees off axis before the timbre noticeably changed. The vertical dispersion, though, that's going to be the trickiest part. There's a pretty quick and clear change in the timbre when getting just slightly above or below the plain of the speaker's face. So careful aiming is going to be paramount! Also, the grill seems to restrict the vertical dispersion even a little bit further. I do believe I will always use this speaker sans grill, which works out well, since the drivers are all gorgeous :D

The other really notable traits of the Horizon Front 3 are their dynamics and utter lack of distortion. They simply beg to be turned up louder and louder! But not because they're too quiet. In fact, their low volume detail is stellar! But they have that wonderful quality where turning up the volume just brings them "closer", not "louder", and just makes things sound more and more real.

I really haven't tested out the various bookshelf speakers yet. But I'm excited to do some comparisons. All in all, though, I'm thrilled, I'm happy, and I have zero regrets. I had really high expectations, and the Front 3 Horizons have exceeded them!

I can't tell you what a relief it is -- haha. But it was worth the wait, for sure. And Dave could have charged me a lot more, and still provided a fantastic value! I got these for a steal, but that's why I came to Ascend!

[Dark Ranger]

Woohoo!!

Now I can let out that breath I've been holding for the past week or so. I'm thrilled that you like them so far. It must be a huge relief (an understatement) now that everything has arrived safely, not to mention that you're happy with the sonic signature. I think you made the right choice going with the RAAL tweeter. It's fantastic, isn't it?

Have fun with the setup, tweaking, and listening. Post when you can, but first priority is enjoying your new purchase. :D

[FirstReflect]

Thanks, Jacob!

Yes, I will definitely post more pics when I am able.

I need to stress, once again, though, that my current setup is NOT my "master plan" for these speakers! Not by a long shot! No, I came up with these custom dimensions and ordered these speakers for my future house and dedicated theater. I saw no point in waiting for materials prices to keep going up and up. And when Dave responded so enthusiastically, and with such an incredibly low price for all of this work, I simply said, "well what the heck would I wait for? It ain't gonna get better than this!" Not to mention, it's not as though I can't enjoy the heck out of these speakers for the next couple of years until I'm ready to move into my house!

So, with that disclaimer said, my current theater room in my apartment is way smaller than honestly makes sense for these speakers. The pictures are going to be hilarious :D But it's still awesome to have the speakers, and to know that the lynchpin of my future plans is already bought and paid for!

So, set up my apartment theater, get Dave's thank you gift in order, finish up all the work I need to get done this week -- THEN I can enjoy, and get some proper pictures posted :)

[rsmt2000]

congratulations Jonathan !!!

You deserve every bit of sonic nirvana. I and many folks in various forums keep learning a LOT from your posts. You really are very helpful for newbies and go OVER the EXTRA MILE to help others.

I sincerely wish you all the very best for your current and future AV set ups.

-Ron

[Mpalmieri1203]

Jonathan,

Your thread had been a good read and I'm sure you're relieved to finally have your speakers.

I see that you plan on using the Sierra-1 as a surround. I plan on doing the same. My question is how or what do you plan on using to mount or stand them?

I'm trying to get some ideas for my space.

[FirstReflect]

Thanks, guys!

I didn't even get a chance to do any further setup today. What crummy timing :p I did make progress in Dave's thank you gift, though :)

Mpalmieri, at the moment, I'm using these Yorkville SKS-40B monitor stands (http://accessories.yorkville.com/studio_furniture/monitor_stands/product/sks-40b/) for my Surround, Surround Back, and Front Height speakers. They're a nice, affordable, strong stand that can be extended as tall as 4 feet, so they're great for elevated Surrounds. For the Front Height speakers, I'll have those stands on top of Autalex GRAMMA platforms, which are, themselves, on top of some 15" tall Ikea TV stands, which are also acting as my Front L/R stands ;) so, the TV stands plus the GRAMMA risers, plus the Yorkville stands gets me about 5 and a half feet, plus the 14 inch height of the Sierra-1 NrT speakers themselves :)

In the future, though, I will be wall-mounting all of the elevated speaker positions. For that, I will use these B-Tech BT77 wall-mounts (http://www.btechavmounts.com/product-range/products/bt77).

Dave also recommended these Pinpoint AM-40B wall-mounts (http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B002UV03MW/ref=redir_mdp_mobile), which look very similar.

[mapmn006]

Super cool Jonathan!

Can't wait to see more pics and hear your review when you get time!

Congratulations!

[JustABrah]

Jonathan buddy how about some updates and pics of this beast of a setup you got.

[FirstReflect]

Coming next week!

I was super busy last week, and my top, non-work priority ended up being Dave's thank you gift, which I will be shipping out to him tomorrow!

So, I really haven't had time to optimize, enjoy, and photograph my speaker setup yet. But, I have a week off work, starting tomorrow, which means I will finally be getting everything how I want it...for now ;)

Again, can't stress enough that what I have right now is a temporary apartment setup, and NOT my "master plan" for these speakers. But it sure will be fun to enjoy in the mean time.

I'll update with some shots of Dave's gift, too, once he receives it :)

[sourbeef]

Can't wait to see your pics.

[FirstReflect]

Ay-yi-yi

Well, obviously I'm late with posting my theatre pics. And here's why!

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Quite literally, one week ago, I had just completed my theatre install and setup. Finally, had the speakers and everything else positioned, set up, and I was starting to run Audyssey MultEQ XT32. I was getting ready to snap my photos when I noticed that damage on my ceiling above my Right Surround speaker.

Yup. Water damage :mad:

I live in a high rise, so I'm responsible for everything inside my apartment, but anything to do with the building itself is the responsibility of my strata. Unexposed leaky pipes are, somewhat thankfully, considered part of the structure, so my strata will pay for all the repairs to the pipes and my ceiling. But I say "somewhat", because that also means it takes longer than if I were to just call a plumber and do the drywall repairs myself.

So, alas, all of this meant I had to pull everything out of my theatre! That was fun, since I have a heavy amp, heavy AV Receiver, all my precious Ascend speakers, oh...and a 70" TV that I had to finagle off of its stand mount!

Yeah...so...that was last week. Pipes get fixed today. Drywall will be in the middle of the week. But then it needs to get mudded, primed, and the paint has to get matched. So I'm pretty much guessing that all of this week and next week are a bust :mad:

I'm so bummed out right now -- haha. Like, literally as I finally had my theatre all set up, this freaking water damage has to raise its ugly head.

The good news is that there was no equipment damage -- the water never actually leaked through. And I guess it's much better to have caught it now. But it's still a major bummer!

In happy news, though, Dave really like the gift that I got him! I gave him a custom made HTPC movie server with 10 Blu-ray demo discs loaded onto it. I'm putting up another thread explaining what I got him, and also because I'm sure he will need more input from as many forum members as possible as he familiarizes himself with Windows Media Center and all of its many capabilities! So head on over to DaveF's HTPC thread (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?5482-DaveF-s-HTPC-Come-Help-Dave-Get-the-Most-Out-of-His-New-Toy!) and lend him some advice if he ever needs it :) I really only use my own HTPCs as a movie server and for music, so I'm far from an expert when it comes to everything HTPC. But Dave seems genuinely excited and happy to have it, and we've already emailed back and forth a few times regarding different formats and adding more capabilities to the HTPC!

So, good news there. Bad news for my theatre. But it will all get sorted in time :)

[TTL2000]

I enjoyed this thread and was hoping to see the end results...is everything patched up and back together?

[FirstReflect]

I will have photos by the end of this week, I SWEAR!

haha

The final coat of paint was put on on Thursday. I work long hours over the weekend, so I've no time right this moment. A friend is coming over on Tuesday to help me do all the heavy lifting (70" TV onto its stand, big SVS subs to move in, all the speakers, of course, and my Onkyo TX-NR5010 and ATI AT1805 amp). I have to record the next AVRant episode (I'm Rob H., by the way, in case people didn't see me say that in my DaveF's HTPC thread. Sorry for the screen name confusion :p I used this "Jonathan Teller" screen name many years ago!) on Tuesday, as well, though, so I won't have time to finish all the fine tuning.

I'm free all day on Wednesday, though. So that should be when I finally get done!

Hold your breath. It won't be too long now :)

[FirstReflect]

907 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3s7cct7piafjm66/FirstReflect%20Home%20Theatre%2001.jpg)

[FirstReflect]

^^^

:D :D :D

OK. So...

I will post more photos in the days to come, but there's the glory shot.

As you can see, it's rather ridiculous.

[hornfan785]

My God, it's full of stars....

[FirstReflect]

Ah ha ha!

hornfan785, you have no idea how apropos your reply was:

https://twitter.com/firstreflect/status/394385087208251392

:D

[TTL2000]

Haha....I'm a bit speechless...I'm not even sure if it's for real...

[petmotel]

^^^

:D :D :D

OK. So...

I will post more photos in the days to come, but there's the glory shot.

As you can see, it's rather ridiculous.

Awesome Rob! only thing I see that's ridiculous are those two chairs. Minimum requirements there are at least a recliner or two ;).

Jay

[Dark Ranger]

Holy woofers and tweeters, Batman! Fiddlesticks and kettle drums, what on earth is this barrel of monkeys? :D

That is one of the most awesome things I've ever seen. Sheesh, and I thought my 7.1 setup was cramped. Considering your space constraints, you did a great job with layout and positioning. I count, uh, seven speakers plus two cylindrical (SVS?) subs. Obviously I can't seen the side and back surrounds from this angle.

I like what you did with the Auralux Grammas and MoPads. They're great for getting the right angle and height, aren't they? Plus they help a bit with decoupling depending on the frequency. The overall room treatments shown should do a good job with controlling low frequencies. So yeah, I expected outlandish, but this is just another level entirely.

I've got only one more thing to say: I want a demo!! :cool:

[petmotel]

Holy woofers and tweeters, Batman! Fiddlesticks and kettle drums, what on earth is this barrel of monkeys? :D

That is one of the most awesome things I've ever seen. Sheesh, and I thought my 7.1 setup was cramped.

I expected outlandish, but this is just another level entirely.

I've got only one more thing to say: I want a demo!! :cool:

I think the airplane crash scene from Flight of the Phoenix would sound epic on that system. Cloverfield might be a bit of fun too! A good concert Blu-Ray like John Mayer or Dave Mathews & Tim Reynolds would also be cool.

Please post what you have played and what it sounds like!

Jay

[eliwankenobi]

907 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3s7cct7piafjm66/FirstReflect%20Home%20Theatre%2001.jpg)

WOW!!

Rob, thats the most amazing array of speakers I've seen on a home theater! Great Job!!

I do agree with the previous comments, those two chairs there look kinda sad... That space screams comfy couch!

Are you finished with calibration? Would like to hear more comments on your setup, like what speakers are powered by the ATI amp( weird for me, I think ATI and video cards come to mind)? Distance from screen, etc and of course how does it sound!!!!

I hope you enjoy your system for many many years!!

[FirstReflect]

Haha....I'm a bit speechless...I'm not even sure if it's for real...

Oh, it's real. I assure you. I have the $20,000 hole in my savings account to prove it ;)


Awesome Rob! only thing I see that's ridiculous are those two chairs. Minimum requirements there are at least a recliner or two.

Jay

Thanks! Everyone hates my poor chairs :(

haha

They're actually really comfortable, but they ARE temporary. I can't fit more than a love seat, unless I want to climb over the back of a couch to get into it - lol. I have expensive taste, though. So I've gotta save up a bit. I've been so disappointed with most home theater recliners. I think I'll either have to go Ekornes or Elite HTS. Both are pricey.


Holy woofers and tweeters, Batman! Fiddlesticks and kettle drums, what on earth is this barrel of monkeys?

That is one of the most awesome things I've ever seen. Sheesh, and I thought my 7.1 setup was cramped. Considering your space constraints, you did a great job with layout and positioning. I count, uh, seven speakers plus two cylindrical (SVS?) subs. Obviously I can't seen the side and back surrounds from this angle.

I like what you did with the Auralux Grammas and MoPads. They're great for getting the right angle and height, aren't they? Plus they help a bit with decoupling depending on the frequency. The overall room treatments shown should do a good job with controlling low frequencies. So yeah, I expected outlandish, but this is just another level entirely.

I've got only one more thing to say: I want a demo!!

Just point your ears towards the north west. I think I can probably play this system loud enough for you to hear it from where you are.

:p

Thanks for the compliments! It IS a tight fit, but I planned it out extensively, and it worked out pretty well, given my constraints, I think.

Yes, I have dual SVSound PC13-Ultra subs placed at the mid-point of each side wall. And yes, I love the Auralex MoPads and GRAMMA risers for damping and aiding in the angling :)

Wall treatments are a GiK Acoustics Room Kit. And the ceiling diffusers are Auralex MetroFusers. Those ceiling treatments made way more improvement than expected. Still had some "zing" slap echo without them, despite all the absorption and bass traps. Definitely worth treating up there!


I think the airplane crash scene from Flight of the Phoenix would sound epic on that system. Cloverfield might be a bit of fun too! A good concert Blu-Ray like John Mayer or Dave Mathews & Tim Reynolds would also be cool.

Please post what you have played and what it sounds like!

Jay

I've only had a wee bit of listening time. And things will change after full calibration. But I'm right there with you on the concert Blu-rays! I've listened to Chris Botti in Boston, John Mayer, and Daniel Barenboim plays Beethoven piano sonatas. And I've tried out Dredd 3D for DTS Neo:X 11.1 playback.

The DTS Neo:X tests were interesting. The discrete 11 speaker separation is excellent. You'd never guess it's matrixed. But it alters the sound quality quite a bit. It sounds as though the room is substantially larger, so there's some additional phase stuff going on, methinks. The straight DTS-HD Master Audio playback sounds almost like headphones in my setup because I'm so close to all the speakers and everything is so clear. With Neo:X engaged, it's like the speakers got pushed back 15 feet. It's interesting for sure, and I'll need a lot more listening experimentation :)

The concerts I just played straight. I will try out all the expansion modes, for sure later. But played straight, the sound from the Front Horizons is phenomenal. It's chill inducing. Literally.

:)


Are you finished with calibration? Would like to hear more comments on your setup, like what speakers are powered by the ATI amp( weird for me, I think ATI and video cards come to mind)? Distance from screen, etc and of course how does it sound!!!!

I'm not finished at all with calibration: neither video nor audio, which is why I don't have more pictures yet ;)

My Front Main Left & Right, Center, and Front Wide speakers are all powered by the ATI AT1805 amp. All the other channels are powered by my Onkyo TX-NR5010. When using the full 11 speaker setup, the Front Wides MUST be powered by a separate amplifier. There's no other choice.

Distance from eyes to screen is about 7 feet for a nearly 40 degree field of view. Really nice for movies, especially 3D. For TV and games, I prefer a little bit smaller field of view - around 32 degrees. But this setup is for movies and music, so it all works out nicely :)

I've not had time to do a ton of listening yet, and, of course, it's not fully calibrated yet, either. But in my preliminary listening, I can say that I am SO glad that I opted for the custom Front Wide Sierra-1 speakers that use the exact same RAAL 70-20XR ribbon tweeter and Tower midrange driver. That front soundstage is perfectly seamless, which was my biggest concern!

Calibration might change my opinion, but at the moment, with just "first impressions" listening, I hope Dave won't be upset with me for saying this, but there's a discernible difference between the Sierra-1 NrT and the RAAL upgraded Front Wides & custom Horizon Front Left, Right & Center. There's just an extra level of clarity, realism and "ease" with the Front speakers vs. the NrT Surrounds, Surround Backs, and Front Heights.

I honestly don't mind, as I am personally far less critical of the Surround and Height channels. But I'm honestly a little bit surprised. It's difficult to correctly describe the level of difference. The Sierra-1 NrT sound great! But there's a bigger improvement going to the custom Horizon RAAL than I had anticipated. Let me put it this way: I had joked with Dave that it would be a while before I'd be upgrading my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to Sierra-2. Well, that's not such a joke anymore - haha. I think the way to describe it is: it feels like I'm so tantalizingly close to a PERFECT sound field that it's like, "why not?" Why not push this literally as far as it can go, and see if we can't reach nirvana? haha. Basically, the Sierra-1 NrT as Surrounds and Heights are letting me glimpse and imagine. They're right up to the edge. But having those custom RAAL 70-20XR & Tower midrange Sierra-1 wides has let me envision what the sound could/might be. I have faith that the Sierra-2 will get me to that imagined place. So, time to save up some more funds :D

[petmotel]

Calibration might change my opinion, but at the moment, with just "first impressions" listening, I hope Dave won't be upset with me for saying this, but there's a discernible difference between the Sierra-1 NrT and the RAAL upgraded Front Wides & custom Horizon Front Left, Right & Center. There's just an extra level of clarity, realism and "ease" with the Front speakers vs. the NrT Surrounds, Surround Backs, and Front Heights.

I honestly don't mind, as I am personally far less critical of the Surround and Height channels. But I'm honestly a little bit surprised. It's difficult to correctly describe the level of difference. The Sierra-1 NrT sound great! But there's a bigger improvement going to the custom Horizon RAAL than I had anticipated. Let me put it this way: I had joked with Dave that it would be a while before I'd be upgrading my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to Sierra-2. Well, that's not such a joke anymore - haha. I think the way to describe it is: it feels like I'm so tantalizingly close to a PERFECT sound field that it's like, "why not?" Why not push this literally as far as it can go, and see if we can't reach nirvana? haha. Basically, the Sierra-1 NrT as Surrounds and Heights are letting me glimpse and imagine. They're right up to the edge. But having those custom RAAL 70-20XR & Tower midrange Sierra-1 wides has let me envision what the sound could/might be. I have faith that the Sierra-2 will get me to that imagined place. So, time to save up some more funds :D

I also heard a marked difference between my front stage (all with ribbons) and the NRT Sierra-1 surrounds when I first fired up my system with the new speakers. However, after running a sweep, and looking at the results, I could see a substantial difference between response curves with those locations. After engaging the ARC system in my D-2processor, the sound field became much more 3 dimensional, and seamless. I'll be interested to see what you think after the system is better dialed in.

Jay

[billy p]

Rob....how would you compare the RAALs to other speakers you've heard...now that you've heard them...whats your POV and how, if maybe, has it changed?

Btw...I like your chairs...ha...;)

Re :Bill

[davef]

907 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3s7cct7piafjm66/FirstReflect%20Home%20Theatre%2001.jpg)

I am truly speechless!

[TTL2000]

What's the over/under for days before being booted from the apartment? ;)

[FirstReflect]

Rob....how would you compare the RAALs to other speakers you've heard...now that you've heard them...whats your POV and how, if maybe, has it changed?

Btw...I like your chairs...ha...;)

Yay! Some love for my little chairs!

haha

Thanks, Bill. I don't even need to fully dial in and calibrate the Front Main and Center speakers to say that I really don't think I've heard outright "better" speakers at any price point.

Naturally, the biggest problem is that I'm not doing side-by-side comparisons. I'm just going off of the memories of the listening experiences that I've had. So all I can really compare are the emotional responses that I had, and my overall impressions of what I remember from all the speakers I've heard in the past. That's not at all a fair comparison. But at the same time, some speakers sort of leave a "mark" on you that you easily recall.

For example, I easily remember the impression of realism I got from Magnepan's 3.6 speakers. But I also recall them not having a perfectly flat frequency response. Still, there was that "uncanny" quality about them where, if you closed your eyes, you really, really got that sense that you were listening to real live instruments, rather than speakers.

I recall the Revel Ultima Salon sounding supremely neutral. And I remember feeling like the Revel Performa3 line really sounds like the ultimate expression of the "NRC sound". Just very, very neutral and even in every way. But not quite "uncanny" real.

And I really recall the Focal Professional SM11 Studio Monitors. To this day, I don't recall ever being able to pick out minute details and 0.5dB changes in the mix the way those SM11 Monitors revealed such things.

But the simplest way that I can describe what I'm hearing with these custom Horizon RAAL speakers is, "every sound in the recording is there, and nothing that's NOT in the recording is being produced."

They just sound supremely clean. Some of that is the room. Some of that is the electronics. But, like I'm saying, just on first impressions, even going between the Sierra-1 NrT and the Horizon RAAL, there's an extra cleanliness and realism with the Horizon RAAL speakers.

One of the things that's really struck me with the Horizon RAAL Front speakers: when you go and listen to a live concert, or you play as part of a musician's group or an orchestra - there's an anticipation that you learn in terms of the sounds that you expect to hear. It's a bit tough to describe, but subconsciously, you know and anticipate the sounds of the various instruments.

With most speakers, I'm realizing that the sounds I'm anticipating and then the sounds that actually come out of the speakers don't quite match up. I think that's a big part of what lets us know that we're listening to speakers vs. real instruments. I think we're sort of inherently used to what real instruments sound like. We see a violinist raise his or her bow, and we already know and anticipate what the notes will sound like when he or she draws that bow across the strings. We see a pianist place his or her hands just above the keys, and we know and anticipate what the sound will be when he or she depresses those keys. Without thinking about it, we're anticipating the sound because we're familiar with it.

Well, with the Horizon RAAL speakers, the sound matches the anticipation. And that's a whole other emotional and psychological experience that I haven't really thought about or taken notice of before. Realizing it now, though, I think it makes perfect sense!

It really struck me how much that anticipation is part of the listening experience. I hadn't thought about it before, but I really think it's a critical component now. I could never quite place my finger on what it was before. Why was it that when I go to a live concert, or play in an amateur (and I'm definitely an amateur when it comes to actually playing anything - haha) group, why is that sound and experience so different vs. listening to a recording on speakers at home?

Well, with these Horizon RAAL speakers, I think I finally understand the answer. The anticipation of the sounds I expect to hear - having those match up with the sound that actually comes out of the speakers - it's almost like a reward that triggers something in the brain. You anticipate something, and then you get it, which sets off a part of our mind's reward system, I think. To me, hearing it now, that is what has been missing when playing recorded music through speakers. But now I think it's a HUGE part of the listening experience!

Anywho, I've no idea how you'd measure something like that objectively -- haha. But that anticipation factor is something of an epiphany for me. The fact that it had never struck me as a thought before is, perhaps, the easiest way to explain how I think the Horizon RAAL compare to other speakers. They made me realize something new about listening in general. And for an experienced listener like me, how do you top that?

:)


I am truly speechless!

I'm so glad you approve, Dave!

(you did mean the good kind of speechless, right? :p haha)

[crazycuz2k]

Well Dave... Now you know how your demo room should look

[markie]

Awesome description and insights about the listening experience, thanks Rob!

Mark

[davef]

Well Dave... Now you know how your demo room should look

Ha -- reminds me very much of my days at M&K Sound, the room looks much like Ken Kreisel's mastering room / lab... Obviously, the attached pic is an exaggeration, but really not too far off. Good memories for me!

[FirstReflect]

Hi, all!

So sorry it's taken me so long to post more photos. But here they are!

Please click on the images below and click the "open photo viewer" link towards the bottom right of the page to embiggen them, and to read the details I've posted about my gear :) It's all on Facebook. I'm trying to make the links so that you can still see the images and text even if you don't have a Facebook account, but let me know if it isn't working for you.

Oh, and sorry about the logo on the TV. That's just my shameless plugging (but mainly because I took these photos for the podcast listeners to look at, too :) )

934 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769286786422086&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F1397632_769286786422086_1912671480_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F1473045_769286786422086_1912671480_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

935 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769286873088744&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F1398551_769286873088744_209402763_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F1395110_769286873088744_209402763_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

936 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769287049755393&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F1400666_769287049755393_1871580147_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn2%2F1469780_769287049755393_1871580147_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

[FirstReflect]

937 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769287169755381&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F1400395_769287169755381_1693431322_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn2%2F1456050_769287169755381_1693431322_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

938 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769287263088705&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F1009718_769287263088705_595180605_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn2%2F1424456_769287263088705_595180605_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

939 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769287373088694&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F1397023_769287373088694_396460634_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F1393540_769287373088694_396460634_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

[FirstReflect]

940 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769287499755348&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F1402106_769287499755348_1375249051_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-frc3%2F1460310_769287499755348_1375249051_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

941 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769287796421985&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F1403281_769287796421985_1522191346_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn2%2F1441521_769287796421985_1522191346_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

942 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769287799755318&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F1403281_769287799755318_2114632502_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F1441521_769287799755318_2114632502_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

[FirstReflect]

943 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769288059755292&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F1400447_769288059755292_599708746_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2F1395764_769288059755292_599708746_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

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947 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769288536421911&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-frc3%2F1403003_769288536421911_1808307752_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F942209_769288536421911_1808307752_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

[FirstReflect]

948 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769289006421864&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-frc3%2F966066_769289006421864_1582809876_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-frc3%2F1395315_769289006421864_1582809876_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

949 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769289019755196&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F966066_769289019755196_2037866708_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F1395315_769289019755196_2037866708_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

[FirstReflect]

950 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769289013088530&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F966066_769289013088530_1064675039_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn2%2F1395315_769289013088530_1064675039_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

951 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769289016421863&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-frc3%2F966066_769289016421863_75620409_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-frc3%2F1395315_769289016421863_75620409_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

952 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769289009755197&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn2%2F966066_769289009755197_529540474_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn2%2F1395315_769289009755197_529540474_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

953 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769289253088506&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2F1401533_769289253088506_588882730_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F1452515_769289253088506_588882730_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

954 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=769289256421839&set=a.769286399755458.1073741828.522979641052803&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2F1401533_769289256421839_353230899_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F1452515_769289256421839_353230899_n.jpg&size=1359%2C1019)

[Dark Ranger]

What a show-off. ;):p

Outstanding work, sir. Looks fantastic. I must ask, where did you buy your speakers? I looked at my local BestBuy, but the B**E speakers are smaller than yours. I'm sure they'll sound just as good, though. ;)

[FirstReflect]

Thanks!

:D

Yeah, my "Bass Modules" are a little bit bigger than the ones that come packed in with those lovely little cube speakers that everyone else seems to like so much :p

[mapmn006]

WOW!!! Looks great! I bet it sounds great too! Probably 60 pounds of speaker cable. :) What brand panels are on your ceiling and how did you install them?

[FirstReflect]

Thanks, map!

It DOES sound great :D Honestly, quite a bit better than I had expected (because of the tiny room size, not because of the gear), and better than I had ever hoped for! I wrote some more thoughts about the sound of my final setup in the "Owners Photo Gallery" thread, so I'll link that here rather than repeat myself :)

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?3926-Ascend-Owners-Photo-Gallery&p=45956#post45956

I'm not sure how much speaker cable I wound up using -- haha. But it actually wasn't all that much. Pretty short runs for most of it, so it wasn't that bad.

The ceiling panels are Auralex MetroFusors. I stuck them up there with Blu-Tack :) I imagine they won't stay stuck 100% forever, but it's easy enough to reach up and give them a little wiggle and push every once in a while. They're very light-weight, so if one ever does fall down, it won't be any big deal. And easy enough to stick it back up there. No problems at all so far, though.

I must say, the ceiling diffusion really took care of some lingering slap echo in that room! It was pretty dramatic. Just doing the "clap test" and listening for the "zing" in the slap echo; no ceiling treatments? Pretty clear "zing". Diffusion panels installed? Dead clap with no reverb. Seemed well worth it :)

[JustaSheep]

JTeller,

Question for you....do you live in the room and have someone slide food in under the only door seen in the pics that is clearly blocked by speakers and stands? I don't see a way in or out (not that that's a bad thing).

[markie]

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen such concentrated goodness. Amazing work Jonathan (and Dave)!
Mark

[FirstReflect]

Haha. Good eye, Sheep :p

It actually is a bit of a production getting in and out of the room, yes. lol

First, the gap between the side of the futon and either subwoofer is pretty tight. Not a big problem, though. To open one half of the French doors, though, I do need to move one of the Surround Back speakers into the corner and slide the GiK Monster bass trap clear of the door :p I have the exact positions marked, so I can put them perfectly back in place once I'm "sealed" inside.

Once I'm all nestled in, though? The world really does seem to disappear for 2 hours (or however long I'm in there). It's truly immersive. Beats a movie theatre in every way imaginable.

[muzz]

Sweet!

[Dark Ranger]

Sweet!

muzz!

It's great to see you're still kicking. It's been a long time... :)


Oh and Jonathan, uh, Rob, I check in on your thread about once or twice a week. Your setup never gets old to see. I think you win the "best damn theater" award by a long shot...

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to change out my drool bib...again!

[muzz]

muzz!

It's great to see you're still kicking. It's been a long time... :)


Oh and Jonathan, uh, Rob, I check in on your thread about once or twice a week. Your setup never gets old to see. I think you win the "best damn theater" award by a long shot...

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to change out my drool bib...again!

Yes it has Jacob, been very busy with the new house and all, and I just can't take too much of this good stuff that I can't afford ( or actually USE) right now.
I see Dave has been very busy, and folks are getting better and better gear all the time.

Great to see so many folks thrilled with their gear, I still have my LCR Sierras/170SE's, but I haven't listened to them in almost a year.....gotta build the theater 1st!

Hope all is well!

Take Care,

Gary

[FirstReflect]

Thanks, guys!

I definitely don't have the "best damn theater" yet. Room's way too small, display could definitely be improved upon in picture quality, and the wall colour is all wrong ;)

Thankfully, in regards to the wall colour, when I'm seated, the TV takes up so much of my field of view that the red wall colour really isn't visible. It would be on the sides, but I have my black absorption panels there :) So there's effectively very little colour bias degrading my perception of the image, thank goodness.

I'm happy that I bought the Sharp LC-70LE735U. At that 70" size, there aren't a ton of options. And I'll definitely take the far more uniform full-array backlight over the edge-lit models that are pretty much the only game in town these days. I am also super thankful for the semi-matte screen! A glossy screen really would be just like a mirror in my setup. Sitting as close to the display as I do, my own reflection is staring right back at me, and at least the LC-70LE735U's semi-matte finish makes it a dull and blurry reflection, rather than a mirror!

But the black levels are pretty grey. I wouldn't turn the lights fully off with this display. Black bars on 2.35:1 aspect movies most certainly do not blend into the black bezel around the screen like they should. My lamps are a bit on the bright side, so I think I'll be adding a bias light at some point to hit a nice middle ground :)

3D is pretty good, but there's definitely significant crosstalk. Can't avoid that completely with any active shutter glasses display, but I've seen better. Seen worse, too, though ;)

Anywho, there are improvements to be made! But not to my audio gear :D On that front, yes, I'd say I've got about the "best damn theater". Just wait until I upgrade all my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to Sierra-2s! haha

I honestly still can't get over my deep bass, though. I mean, I can reach out an arm to either side and touch a subwoofer! How is it possible for them to not be localizable, completely draw attention to one side or the other, nor sound disjointed from even a single speaker in my 11 speaker setup? I mean, the sub is right there! haha. Honestly, it still seems like witchcraft :D

[JustaSheep]

Speaking of perfect theater, I saw Hunger Games on a 4k dlp with Dolby Atmos and it was very nice. I don't know if the film was shot digitally or not, but the audio was great. There were moments the spacial effects made me want to look up over my shoulder for insects.

[sourbeef]

Awesome! Congrats on a great setup. It must have been a lot of work to say the least.

[FirstReflect]

Hoo-boy.

Well, I figured I would post my early Sierra-2 impressions within my own thread here.

I picked up my Sierra-2 upgrade kits from the Post Office last night. Today, I did the upgrades, which went pretty darn smoothly, thank goodness, and had my first listen.

The Sierra-1 NrT and the Sierra-2 sound different from one another. Straight up. No ifs, ands, or buts. There's a clear difference, I'd be able to tell them apart blind, and the Sierra-2 are, in my opinion, superior. Like we've all been saying, they sound more realistic, clearer, more detailed. Where the Sierra-1 NrT sound like very good speakers, the Sierra-2 just plain sound closer to being real life. There's also a greater sense of atmosphere and the acoustics of the recording venue when such things are contained within the recording.

So for anyone who is wondering whether the Sierra-2 present a discernible and worthwhile upgrade over the already very good Sierra-1 NrT, the answer is absolutely and unequivocally, "yes". There can be no doubt as to which speaker is playing when switching between the two. I won't say "night and day difference" because I hate that saying, and I also don't think it's true in this case. But it's a clear difference. We can put that to rest :)

But now for the much, much tougher part:

To my ear, the Sierra-2 and my super-custom Front Wide Sierra bookshelf speakers that have the Towers/Horizon dedicated midrange driver and the larger RAAL 70-20XR tweeter in them do not sound identical. They are really, really close, but they are not identical.

Oy.

This is a really tough one for me to explain. To start, my super-custom Front Wides and my Horizon RAAL Front speakers sound identical. Obviously, the bass extension is different - my Front Wides can't play much at all below 90Hz, and I've found a 120Hz crossover to my subwoofers to be the best. But other than the bass extension and output, they sound identical in the midrange and treble. The match is blissfully good.

The Sierra-2 do not sound identical. But it's very, very close. Closer than a speaker selling for the price of the Sierra-2 probably has any right to get. But it's not quite identical.

The question is, is it close enough that I would be 100% satisfied using the Sierra-2 in the Surround, Surround Back, and Front Height positions, as was my intent? And man oh man, I honestly have not decided yet.

So here is what my experience has been so far: if I start with the Front Wides playing, and then I quickly switch over to the Sierra-2, it's awfully hard to tell the difference. One issue is that the Sierra-2 clearly play lower in the bass than the Front Wides that are using only the dedicated Tower/Horizon midrange driver. Even setting the high pass crossover, that low end response isn't identical because the filter is a slope, so the Sierra-2 is still producing a bit deeper bass.

But the trick is when I start by listening to the Sierra-2 and then rapidly switching over to the Front Wides. When I do that, it's like, "oh...crap...that does sound better. Crap. I was hoping it wouldn't. But it does."

:p

The Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides just sound that little bit more open, that little bit more real, and that little bit - I don't even know. It's like the last lens flip when you're taking an eye exam to get some new glasses. It's just

Sierra-2 -- gosh darn it that sounds real and good

Horizon RAAL -- holy crap! That sounds holographic!

I don't know what to do, guys -- haha.

Here's the thing, by comparison, the Sierra-1 NrT aren't even close. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but my point is that there's no question at all when it's comparing the Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides to the Sierra-1 NrT. In that setup, there's a clear and obvious difference in the sound, and I'm itching for an even better and more seamless match.

With the Sierra-2, it's like different shades of the same thing. I WANT the Sierra-2 to completely satisfy me. It's the much easier and less costly option. And when I go from the Horizon RAAL or my Front Wides to the Sierra-2, it's not at all like the Sierra-1 NrT. It's really tough to tell them apart going in that direction. I can almost convince myself.

But then I go back from the Sierra-2 to the Horizon RAAL or my Front Wides, and I just can't help it, "crap. The Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides do still sound better. Crap."

lol

But here's the real kicker: I really want that extra bit of bass extension in my Surround, Surround Back, and Front Height channels. The high crossover point works for my Front Wides because my subwoofers are literally right beside them. There's no discernible gap or audible transition. But with the Surrounds, Backs, and Heights farther away, I'd really like to have a lower crossover point to the subs to keep that transition seamless.

And let's not forget, the Surrounds, Backs, and Heights are all elevated. And frankly, they're rarely playing the exact same sounds as the Front 3 or the Front Wides. Will I really notice that slightly more open, slightly more realistic sound in my Front 5 speakers with regular movies and content?

Truthfully, I'm just going to have to put these Sierra-2 in the Surround positions and find out!

So the best thing I can say about them is that they're so close to the Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides that they're definitely worthy of further study. Placed in the elevated Surround positions, they very well might be seamless enough that their deeper bass extension makes them the superior choice vs. some more super-custom bookshelf speakers with the Tower/Horizon midrange driver and the 70-20XR in them.

The worst thing I can say about them is that they do not sound identical to the Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides. The Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides still hold the edge. Using them as Front Main speakers and quickly A-B comparing them, the Horizon RAAL still win out over the Sierra-2. I don't know if it's because the 70-20XR is handling frequencies below where the Sierra-2's ribbon tweeter rolls off. I don't know if it's the dedicated midrange driver. But the Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides remain that little bit more open, that little bit more real. I switch from the Sierra-2 to the Horizon RAAL and it's just clearer and better. But unlike the difference between the Horizon RAAL and the Sierra-1 NrT, the tone and timbre remain very much the same, and that's why they really do just sound like slightly different shades of one another, rather than outright different speakers.

Gosh, I wish I had no doubt. I wish the Sierra-2 were so remarkable that I could switch between them and my Horizon RAAL and just be unable to distinguish. But that is not the case.

If you only ever heard the Horizon RAAL separately, if you never directly A-B compared them and rapidly switched back and forth, I'd wager all my money that you'd swear they sound identical to the Sierra-2. The tone and timbre are an excellent match. For a bookshelf speaker that CAN produce satisfying bass extension and output, the Sierra-2 cannot be beat. But that darn A-B comparison. I just can't say that the match is perfect. The Horizon RAAL still win out. They say to you, "you like those Sierra-2, eh? Think things can't sound any better or more real, eh? Well have a taste of THIS!" And there it is: holographically real sound, the Sierra-2 taken to the nth degree.

Darn it, Dave! Why does that dedicated Horizon midrange driver and that RAAL 70-20XR tweeter have to take it to that level? Why can't the Sierra-2 just be the pinnacle, and all the Horizon RAAL can do is play louder and maybe lower? Why does there have to be this extra "holy crap" level of realism?

I dunno, folks. I will have to listen some more. I will have to put my Front Wides in all of those elevated positions and see if the high crossover point can still blend seamlessly with my subs. I will have to try the Sierra-2 in all of those positions as well and see if I can still make out the difference.

It's close. Close enough that I cannot easily decide to bypass the Sierra-2 and just use the dedicated Horizon midrange and the RAAL 70-20XR all around. The tone and timbre most definitely match pretty much flawlessly, unlike the Sierra-1 NrT. But there's a difference. That nagging, small, but "holy crap are the Horizon RAAL good speakers" difference.

Ay-yi-yi

:p

[eliwankenobi]

Hey Rob!

Wouldn't Audyssey help a little bit with those differences?

Also, wouldn't you rather want to be 90% closer to you custom horizons (assuming they are that close) than maybe 60% close? As you said, with the S2s there is a slight difference, while with the NrT it is just straight up easy to spot that its a different speaker.

I don't know, but it seems to me that you like them more than the NrTs for sure, and although not 100% convinced, you are looking for that extra push towards keeping them, like you are over the edge of the pit and need someone to push you over... Well sir, I am here to push you!! Keep them and upgrade the other NrTs!

Test proposal: Set them as surrounds in 5.1 and play some sweeps to have a base line, but then play some movie content. See If the sound of the speakers is good enough you can forget about the differences and just enjoy the content! I think it should. I mean, so far you have been happy with the NrTs so....how could the Sierra-2 be any worse?

[davef]

Hey Rob!

Wouldn't Audyssey help a little bit with those differences?

Also, wouldn't you rather want to be 90% closer to you custom horizons (assuming they are that close) than maybe 60% close? As you said, with the S2s there is a slight difference, while with the NrT it is just straight up easy to spot that its a different speaker.

I don't know, but it seems to me that you like them more than the NrTs for sure, and although not 100% convinced, you are looking for that extra push towards keeping them, like you are over the edge of the pit and need someone to push you over... Well sir, I am here to push you!! Keep them and upgrade the other NrTs!

Test proposal: Set them as surrounds in 5.1 and play some sweeps to have a base line, but then play some movie content. See If the sound of the speakers is good enough you can forget about the differences and just enjoy the content! I think it should. I mean, so far you have been happy with the NrTs so....how could the Sierra-2 be any worse?

I think what Rob is trying to determine is to either go with the Sierra-2 all the way around (as surrounds) -or- with more of the custom bookshelf speakers we made for him (which are much more expensive)

The issue is that he wants more of the low end response of S-2's, while also having the slight bit of higher performance offered by the dedicated midrange of the tower in combination with our custom 70-20 ribbon. Problem is, and I know Rob knows this -- is that just isn't possible in a 2-way speaker. To get the low end, we need the woofer mass -- but that added mass is what gives lighter mass mid/ribbon combo in the tower/horizon that slight bit of an advantage in performance. Ascend, RAAL and SEAS -- we all did our very best to get that same level of performance in a bookshelf speaker -- but, defying the laws of physics is not something any of us have learned to do ;)

For me, I love the way the Sierra-2's blend with the RAAL towers and Horizon - but Rob is about as critical of a listener that I know of and seeks perfection.

[petmotel]

Wow, I had the Towers and Twos set up side by side for several days, and threw tons of super high quality music at the two. I could definitely discern there was a difference in the bass, but the high frequencies, the mids, and even the dynamics were so very close between these speakers. I was actually quite astonished, I figured the dynamics of the Towers should be appreciably better than the Sierra-2s, which I did not find to be the case.

I truly think that if I had set a high pass on the two at something around 60 Hz, it would be extremely difficult to tell which was playing.

I think you now need to do a level matched, double blind ABX test to convince yourself that bias was not the cause of your results (just kidding of course). It could well be your hearing is more sensitive than mine, I'm in my late 50s, and when I last did a hearing test, I topped out at 15kHz.

In any case, your results are interesting, I'm wondering if you could try to better quantify exactly where the differences you found were?

Jay

[eliwankenobi]

I think what Rob is trying to determine is to either go with the Sierra-2 all the way around (as surrounds) -or- with more of the custom bookshelf speakers we made for him (which are much more expensive)

The issue is that he wants more of the low end response of S-2's, while also having the slight bit of higher performance offered by the dedicated midrange of the tower in combination with our custom 70-20 ribbon. Problem is, and I know Rob knows this -- is that just isn't possible in a 2-way speaker. To get the low end, we need the woofer mass -- but that added mass is what gives lighter mass mid/ribbon combo in the tower/horizon that slight bit of an advantage in performance. Ascend, RAAL and SEAS -- we all did our very best to get that same level of performance in a bookshelf speaker -- but, defying the laws of physics is not something any of us have learned to do ;)

For me, I love the way the Sierra-2's blend with the RAAL towers and Horizon - but Rob is about as critical of a listener that I know of and seeks perfection.

Thanks Dave for clarifying! I know it can feel frustrating!

I guess another alternative is to get two more subs for the surrounds? Perhaps more subs in different positions will "mask" better the lack of bass response from the custom bookshelf with the 70-20 Raal and mirange woofer? That way he could get more custom bookshelves for surrounds.... It would be more expensive though... Way more..

I have heard the towers and horizon with Raal, but not next to my Sierra-2 for comparizon... But from what I remember the Towers to be, its easy to tell they are "cut from the same cloth". More similar than different. I concur with you Dave and with and believe I would be satisfied with S2s as surrounds for a tower combo...

Also as petmotel mentioned... Perhaps the S2s and his current speakers were not properly level matched and crossed at different frequencies to the sub..... Although, from what have read and heard from Rob on the AVRant podcast... He is very careful in taking care of these kinds of things..

Good luck Rob! I do hope you end up with something that makes you happier than what you are now..

[FirstReflect]

Thanks so much for your replies, guys :)

And, Dave, thank you so much for your understanding and interest in my little (ok...big) obsession here!

Dave has it right, I'm trying to decide between upgrading all of my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to Sierra-2, or upgrading all of my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to the same super-custom 70-20XR + Horizon midrange compliment as my Front Wides. I'm willing to pay for the latter, but it is not an inconsequential difference in price to me ;)

Believe me, if I have any bias in my listening, it is in favour of the Sierra-2, not against them! haha. I WANT for them to be my ideal solution. It's a much easier upgrade! lol

I had them as level matched as possible - within 0.4dB according to my three different SPL meters :p I don't have granular enough control to get any closer, but that, by definition, ought to be inaudible. I also went through my whole rigmarole to get the crossover to the subwoofers set correctly for each pair of speakers. I did not want any differences in bass response to cloud my judgement, or mask what was going on in the midrange and treble.

I can tell you that I started with orchestral music. And I got really excited because, exactly like Jay said, I had a heck of a time telling the Horizon RAAL and the Sierra-2 apart! The timbre and tone are an excellent match.

To Eli's point, they are absolutely a closer match than the Sierra-1 NrT. They are most definitely an improvement. And for the elevated Surround, Back, and Height positions, they might very well still prove ideal.

But I always base my critique on human voices. Singing, speaking, choral, harmony. Our hearing is more sensitive to human voices than anything else. And that's where I spotted the differences. Would I be able to do it blind? ABX? Well, I believe I could.

Like I mentioned, when I went from the Horizon RAAL to the Sierra-2, even with the slightest blip during the change over, it was tough to tell. The Sierra-2 do retain a remarkable similarity to the Horizon RAAL. But when I switched from the Sierra-2 to the Horizon RAAL - I really, really hate to say it because it's another review cliché - but it is like a "veil is lifted".

To put it subjectively, imagine that someone is speaking to you from 6 feet away, and then they move to within 3 feet without getting any louder. That's the sort of difference I'm talking about. Same person, same voice, timbre nor tone changed, didn't sound like going from a speaker to real life. But the Horizon RAAL are just that little bit clearer, that little bit more distinct with human voices, have that little bit higher resolution.

It is the farthest thing from "night and day" difference. But at the same time, can you honestly say that you could never tell the difference between someone speaking to you from 6 feet away vs. 3 feet?

But will that difference be rendered moot by the elevated Surround, Back, and Height positions? That is entirely possible if not downright likely! And that is what I need to test further. Can I put my super-custom Front Wides in all of those elevated positions and maintain the PERFECT sonic match to my Horizon RAALs? Will the Sierra-2 sound equally flawless in those compromised positions? I have to listen much more to determine that. And I shall :D

I must say, though, I've begun thinking that Sierra-2 upgrades all around might very well be in my future...EVEN if I can glean an ever so slightly better match with the Front Wide configuration. And that is because of my future plans.

In my house, I will have a dedicated theater, but I will also have my living room setup, and hopefully a games room, as well. It would be simple enough to purchase a Sierra-2 Center at that time (and probably one more pair, since I like the Front Wide channels so much ;) ) and have perfectly matching Sierra-2 in every position for one of those two rooms!

If I decide that the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers can deliver an even more perfect match to my Horizon RAAL fronts, I can order 6 more of them at that time. I could also use dedicated mid-bass modules for each of them if the higher crossover frequency makes the subwoofers localizable. There is NO WAY I can add any additional mid-bass modules in my current, tiny, apartment theater! haha. I am literally laughing right this moment even thinking of it! :D

But that is all a very viable plan to me. The Sierra-2 ARE an improvement over the Sierra-1 NrT in my system. I have zero doubt or second thoughts of that. The timbral and tonal match are unmistakable with regards to my Horizon RAAL fronts.

I am being ridiculous. I'm well aware of that -- haha. But at this point, I'm more interested in what's POSSIBLE than what is reasonable. My custom Front Wides have demonstrated to me that even the Sierra-2 can be improved upon. But will the elevated positions render those improvements moot?

I'm basically just throwing my thoughts out here unfiltered because I know that some folks are interested and get a kick out of it :) I enjoy taking it to this ridiculous level. I find it fun. And I appreciate when other people are hyper critical because I'm the sort of person who notices those types of miniscule differences.

But to sum up for tonight, I really, really must stress that it is ONLY because of my super-custom Front Wides, and ONLY by direct A-B comparison that I even have any small doubts what-so-ever. The timbral and tonal match of the Sierra-2 to the Horizon RAAL is astonishing. If I did not have my custom Front Wides for direct comparison, I would not think it possible for a bookshelf form factor to come any closer. Indeed, for instruments and sound effects, I do not think I could pass a blind ABX test.

But human voices: they are the ultimate bench test. And even with my bias of wanting the Sierra-2 to sound indistinguishable, I can't help but notice what sounds like a person speaking to me from 6 feet away vs. 3 feet.

Financially, convenience-wise, and very, very likely audibly after the speakers are put into those compromised elevated positions, I think the Sierra-2 probably make more sense for me to choose as my upgrade. With my future plans laid out, it's even easier to justify. EVEN if I still find the super-custom 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers to be superior, I've no way to deploy them in an ideal fashion in my current theater, and I will still be able to make full use of the 6 Sierra-2 in an additional future room! That means I really have no downside in choosing the Sierra-2. But for my own edification, I want to make absolutely sure!

But let's face it: it is I. I'm going to end up with Horizon RAAL in every single position if I can build a dedicated theater large enough :p

Thanks so much, everyone!

[petmotel]

Sorry if it seems I'm being critical, don't mean to be. I don't think anyone can question your integrity, or your passion, no one on this board goes to the lengths to help others here as you do. I have no doubt whatsoever that what you describe is exactly what you are hearing.

Just a bit surprised, I played a fair bit of both male and female vocals in my own comparisons (Jennifer Warnes, Patricia Barber, Kevin Mahogany, and Mark Knopfler) and failed to note the same results. I have noticed, and noted previously, a considerable difference in how these speakers sound in my large, open, shop area, as opposed to the small room my surround system resides in.

But I do agree, they are not EXACTLY the same sound, just so very very close, it's quite difficult to determine what, and where those differences exist. For me, it's just way below the threshold that I would consider worrying about it. As you yourself have commented, you're almost obsessively critical, something I understand fully, and appreciate. I have a feeling that your super sensitive abilities at differentiating sounds might well be one of the reasons you are drawn to this hobby.

One thought I do have concerning surround/height speakers in an elevated position, the somewhat wider vertical dispersion window provided by the Twos might be of some advantage compared with the dispersion pattern of your custom wides.

Jay

[FirstReflect]

What a day of listening!

Whelp, I think I have come to a decision. But let me tease that out for a little bit :D

So first of all, I can't stress enough that I have never been unhappy with my Ascend setup at any point. I was already pleased as punch with my Sierra-1 NrT Surrounds, Backs, and Heights. All of this upgrading talk was about possibility and obsession, never dissatisfaction.

I really do believe, though, that quite a few folks are able to spot the timbral and tonal differences between the Horizon RAAL and the Sierra-1 NrT. They sound like slightly different speakers from one another. Meanwhile, my super-custom Front Wides that use the exact same RAAL 70-20XR tweeter and dedicated midrange driver as the ones found in the Horizon RAAL - they sounded identical to the Horizon RAAL, except for the bass extension, of course.

So that's where my whole thought process began: could I somehow get that identical sound offered by my Front Wide speakers into every single speaker position? Could I eliminate that slight timbral and tonal difference I was hearing coming from my Sierra-1 NrT speakers? I tried putting my Front Wide speakers into the Surround positions, and I found that I could! There was something remarkably pleasing and satisfying about having a truly seamless and perfectly matching sound field ALL around me. And now I wanted it :D

But I had to consider: sending in all 6 of my Sierra-1 NrT to Ascend to have them modified and outfitted with the 70-20XR and the dedicated midrange driver was going to be a sizeable expense. And not only that but the very limited bass output of that dedicated midrange driver would necessitate a high crossover frequency to my subwoofers, which might result in the upper bass becoming localizable, especially for the Surround Back or Front Height speakers where there's an appreciable distance. I also had to consider the dispersion characteristics of the 70-20XR tweeter. The vertical dispersion is clearly limited, so that might not have been the ideal choice for these Surround, Back and Height positions, all of which are elevated.

So along came the Sierra-2. The upgrades to my Sierra-1 NrT would be easy and relatively inexpensive. The bass response would be deeper, eliminating the localizable crossover worries. The dispersion might be slightly wider and taller than the 70-20XR tweeter due to the smaller dimensions of the Sierra-2 ribbon tweeter. And early owner reports were saying that the sound was basically a perfect match to the Towers RAAL! I got excited :D

So let's get to the meat. We seem to be in agreement around here: the Sierra-2 do not sound EXACTLY identical to the Horizon RAAL. But the timbre and tone are very, very close. They sound FAR more similar than different. But they're not quite IDENTICAL.

I don't think this comes as any surprise, really. The tweeter and woofer ARE different. Dave has maintained all along that the 70-20XR and the dedicated midrange driver still have some sonic advantages. And everything I've been hearing over the past two days lines up with that. Switching rapidly between the Sierra-2 and the Horizon RAAL, there's a wonderful realism and transparency with the Sierra-2, but then the Horizon RAAL make it sound as though I physically moved closer without the sound getting any louder. It's just that nth degree clearer, but it's enough to make me shake my head and say, "crap! I can't deny it. That really does sound just that little bit better."

The Horizon RAAL are out of this world.

But that's hyper critical listening with both the Horizon RAAL and the Sierra-2 up front, serving as Main Left & Right speakers. Would that little bit of extra clarity still be audible when the Sierra-2 are in the elevated Surround, Back, and Height positions? After today's findings...

yes and no.

:p

Let's start with the dispersion. Horizontally, I could go as far as 35 degrees to either side before noting an audible change in the sound with the Sierra-2. By comparison, the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange Front Wides gave me 30 degrees, but then a very, very gradual change out to as much as 45 degrees. Vertically, it was sort of the opposite: I only got to about 10 degrees either above or below on the Sierra-2, but then the change was very gradual beyond 10 degrees. With the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange Front Wides, I got to maybe 12 degrees above or below, but then there was a much more abrupt change in the sound. I found that very interesting.

So in the elevated positions, I wouldn't strongly favour the horizontal dispersion of one over the other, but the vertical dispersion of the Sierra-2 - while not really any taller just in terms of how far above or below I could go before there was ANY change - did not have as abrupt a change in sound as the super-custom Front Wides.

Combine that vertical dispersion difference with the extremely compromised placement of the Front Height speakers, and I found zero advantage in using the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers in those particular positions. In fact, even the advantages of the Sierra-2 over the Sierra-1 NrT were present, but minimized. The very compromised placement of having the speakers up so high, so close to the ceiling, and angled downward meant that I still needed Audyssey MultEQ XT32's help in order to get the Front Wides sounding matched and coherent with the Front 3 Horizon RAAL speakers.

So there's my "no" answer ;) For the Front Height positions, the extra clarity of the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers is not audible. The Sierra-2's better matching timbre and tone vs. the Sierra-1 NrT were appreciable, but even that improvement was hampered by the highly compromised placement. In short, the Sierra-2 were absolutely as good as it's going to get for those Front Height positions! So that settles whether or not I'll be returning this first trial pair of Sierra-2 upgrades. Nope! If nothing else, they can stay as my Front Height speakers, and I've zero concern about ever wanting the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers up there - they'd basically be going to "waste", and their more abrupt change in sound in their vertical dispersion would actually be an even greater detriment way up there.

So that's one question answered!

Now let's go to the Surround Back positions. I'll just cut to the chase: the high crossover frequency was localizable. Simply put, if I were going to end up using the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers back there, I would need to pair them up with mid-bass modules, or I would have to use full sized Horizon RAAL speakers. I do need that bass extension!

In terms of the audible clarity that has made me go through all of this - if I was doing hyper critical tests where I was just switching back and forth between the super-custom Front Wides and the Sierra-2 back there, I had to admit that, yes, I could still make out the slight difference in sound between the two. But with regular 7-channel content? I never, ever took any notice of it. The Sierra-2 delivered the perfectly matching timbre and tone that I was after. Gone was that slight tonal shift if a sound circled all around me that I used to be able to notice with the Sierra-1 NrT.

So there's another win for the Sierra-2! Could I make an argument for using the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers in the Surround Back positions? Sure. If I were listening to ONLY the Surround Back speakers at any moment, the Sierra-2 and the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers did not sound EXACTLY the same. But please tell me when the heck you have ever come across a recording where nothing but the Surround Back channels are playing! I certainly can't think of any. And for circling pans or front-to-back / back-to-front pans, the Sierra-2 delivered the perfectly matching timbre and tone that I was after.

That's two questions answered!

Finally, we come to the Surround positions. If you've been keeping track, you already know the answer ;)

I could spot the difference. Switching rapidly between the Sierra-2 and the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers in the Surround positions, the difference was audible, and that nth degree of clarity from the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers was appreciated. In regular content, as a sound panned from the Front Horizon RAAL to the Surround channel, the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speaker kept that sound absolutely flawless and seamless while the Sierra-2 imparted a very slight, but audible change.

But here's the thing: right now, I'm in this tiny apartment theatre. The Surround speakers are exceedingly close to me, and pretty much firing directly into my ears from either side! They're basically headphones in this current setup -- haha.

More than that, right now, they're so physically close to the locations of my subwoofers that the crossover wasn't localizable or distracting. But I already know from my Surround Back tests that it can be. In a larger room, I'm going to need that bass extension again for a seamless crossover.

So the Sierra-2 handily "won" 4 out of the 6 possible speakers. My Front Heights and Surround Backs will be Sierra-2. In those positions, they delivered everything I could possibly want, and the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers didn't provide my any audible benefits that could justify the increased price, or even really make an argument for their use. Easy. Done. Put it to bed :)

But the Surround positions still have me hemming and hawing for a moment. I'll be blunt - I would like to use the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers in the Surround positions. Much like the Front Wide positions, having that PERFECT match was magical and nice.

Would I advise anyone else to replace the Sierra-2 with super-custom 70-20XR + dedicated midrange Surrounds? Probably not -- haha. Again, the timbre and tone of the Sierra-2 are an excellent match! And in a larger room, where you're not so close to the Surround speakers that you're basically wearing them as headphones like I am? Not only would I doubt you would hear the difference, but I also believe you would far prefer to have the extended bass response of the Sierra-2 so that your crossover to the subwoofers would be seamless and never localizable.

But this is me we're talking about :p

Simply put, if I don't use a pair of 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers in those Surround positions, I'm always going to be left wondering and wishing. I know myself well enough -- haha. For now, in my tiny theatre, I think I can get away with the high crossover frequency to the subwoofers. Everything is so close together physically that it isn't localizable. But in my future, larger theatre, I'm going to need mid-bass modules for those Surround positions.

So it isn't entirely cut and dry because I have to consider my future plans! Not only that, but there is one other potential wrinkle: what about a bookshelf that uses the Sierra-2 CURV woofer, but uses the 70-20XR tweeter? How much of what I'm hearing is due to the dedicated phase-plug midrange driver? And how much of what I'm hearing is due to the fact that the 70-20XR crosses over to the woofer at a lower frequency vs. the Sierra-2 ribbon tweeter? It's entirely possible that it's all about that 70-20XR tweeter and its lower crossover, in which case, using the CURV driver instead of the dedicated midrange might give me everything I'm after without the need for an outboard mid-bass module!

And let's not forget the possibility of just using Horizon RAAL as my Surround speakers in my future, larger theatre.

So...I'll be keeping these Sierra-2 that I have. I will also be ordering 2 more upgrade kits. Those decisions are locked in my mind, and they will serve as my Front Height and Surround Back speakers.

My only remaining decision is what to do about my Surrounds. I can't forget that I could still just use Sierra-2 for the time being. As I mentioned in my last post, I always have the option to just move all of my Sierra-2 speakers into a second system in the future.

Cost is not my primary concern at all, but it's not as though money is inconsequential to me. To be completely honest, what I would LIKE to do would be to send in a pair of my Sierra-1 NrT to Ascend and have them modified to use the 70-20XR tweeter along with the Sierra-2's CURV woofer! I kind of really want to audition that custom configuration so that I can figure out whether what I'm hearing is all due to the lower crossover of the 70-20XR tweeter, or whether that dedicated phase-plug midrange driver is also responsible. If it's really mostly the 70-20XR tweeter, using the CURV woofer would give me the bass extension that I still want!

But what a potentially expensive audition! I would have to ship my Sierra-1 NrT pair. I would have to pay for the 70-20XR tweeter modifications, a completely new, custom crossover, and the CURV woofer upgrade. Then I would have to pay to ship them to me. I'd audition them, and then what if I discover that I really do need that dedicated phase-plug midrange driver? That's the cost of shipping them to Ascend again, paying to replace the crossover and the woofer, and then shipping them back to me again! Those could end up being some darn expensive bookshelf speakers! haha.

So I shall have to think about it a little more. I'm really, really tempted to just tell myself to stop being so ridiculous and just use Sierra-2 in those Surround positions. They sound excellent! They definitely improve upon the timbral and tonal match that was far more easily spotted when using the Sierra-1 NrT. I can easily, easily repurpose them in the future. And I don't have to worry about the bass extension creating a localizable crossover. Lots of advantages in choosing the Sierra-2, not to mention the cost savings!

But...possibility...

haha.

I mean, look, I'm fighting with myself! I'm struggling! I'm not doing that at all when it comes to the Front Height and Surround Back positions. Those will be Sierra-2. It was easy to decide. No struggle at all. But the Surrounds, I'm debating. That pretty much means I know I'm going to regret it if I don't go whole hog -- lol.

But WHICH whole hog? That's the question now. Even if I add a mid-bass module for each Surround speaker in the future, is that going to work out? The Surround speakers themselves will be elevated while the mid-bass modules will likely be on the floor directly below them. Will that truly be seamless? Will I end up trying to elevate those mid-bass modules? If I end up with that sort of craziness, I'm going to just want to have Horizon RAAL speakers up there instead!

Could a combo of the 70-20XR with the CURV woofer be the solution? I know it'll solve the bass extension concern. But what if it's not quite perfect? What if I need that dedicated phase-plug midrange driver to get me all the way there? That's potentially a very expensive experiment!

Decisions, decisions...

Regardless, I am waiting for the start of next month to make these final purchases. So I have a bit of time to ponder and discuss. What do y'all think? In my future theatre, my Front Wides will probably be getting mid-bass modules of their own. But they will still be at ear height, not elevated like the Surrounds, so I have no worries about them. 150Hz shouldn't be localizable in the vertical direction. If I have mid-bass modules on the floor and the Surround speakers elevated, I shouldn't be able to detect that. But I'm not 100% positive. How ridiculous would an elevated mid-bass module look? haha.

Thanks, everyone!

[petmotel]

I bought a second set of RAAL Towers for side surrounds, of course that was before the S-2s were available. I use my system for music far more than movies, and the thought for me was five identical speakers for surround music use. Even at that, the Horizon is not, in the strictest terms, identical to the Towers, even though it uses the same drivers.

I am very curious as to your thoughts of a custom with the 70-20XR RAAL, and the S-2 CURV mid/woofer. Maybe Dave would be willing to build a pair in his spare time (LOL), and let us know how it turns out? By Dave's "laws of physics" rationale, the mids should make a sizeable difference, and yet the higher crossover point could also be a major contributor to the slight differences.

Frankly, for your purposes, I think another pair of your custom RAAL front mains would be the ideal solution for side surrounds. That way you're assured of seamless integration, and plenty of bass extension.

Jay

[FirstReflect]

Thanks, Jay!

Yes, I'm certainly considering using another pair of Horizon RAAL as my Surrounds. But that would only happen in the future, larger theatre. In my current, tiny theatre, the size would be an issue for sure.

Yup, I'm curious about the 70-20XR + CURV woofer combo. But I just don't think I'm willing to risk that much, potentially, in shipping costs. If I decide to go with the 70-20XR tweeter, it'll be with the dedicated, phase-plug midrange driver as its mate. I already know for certain what I'm getting with that combo, and it's what I want, to be frank ;)

[petmotel]

Thanks, Jay!

Yes, I'm certainly considering using another pair of Horizon RAAL as my Surrounds. But that would only happen in the future, larger theatre. In my current, tiny theatre, the size would be an issue for sure.

Yup, I'm curious about the 70-20XR + CURV woofer combo. But I just don't think I'm willing to risk that much, potentially, in shipping costs. If I decide to go with the 70-20XR tweeter, it'll be with the dedicated, phase-plug midrange driver as its mate. I already know for certain what I'm getting with that combo, and it's what I want, to be frank ;)

I decided to revive this thread simply to satisfy my curiosity. Rob, your being such a discerning listener, I'm curious what you have concluded to do for surrounds in your incredible speaker package. I figure that you've had plenty of time now to compare all of the usual suspects and pick the configuration that best suits your current needs. Care to update?

[FirstReflect]

Hey there, Jay!

Yes, it's been a crazy time for me lately. Unfortunately, many, many rather serious family health issues have been going on. Outside of the AV Rant Podcast, I really have not had much time at all to spend on my home theater hobby. But that will hopefully be improving soon :)

Despite the limits of my time for the past while, I did come to a conclusion (at least for now -- haha) in regards to my speaker setup:

I would up just going with Sierra-2 all around. So I have 6 Sierra-2 now acting as my Surrounds, Surround Backs, and Front Heights.

Basically, it was just so convenient and affordable to just do the upgrades. The added cost of turning one pair of my old Sierra-1 NrT into custom 70-20XR + phase plug Tower mid-range driver units was going to be difficult to justify when their current placement and limited bass extension were going to still be slight compromises.

On top of that, Dave is, of course, always toying with new ideas. So there's nothing to report as of yet, but he's undoubtedly got ideas swimming around in his head behind the scenes :D

And furthermore, I like the idea that in my future house (where I most certainly intend to have more than one surround sound setup), I might simply move all 6 of the Sierra-2 to another room, add a Sierra-2 Center (and maybe a 4th pair for Front Wide or some sort of Dolby Atmost duties :D ), and then upgrade all of the Surround and presence speakers in my dedicated theater.

As for the results, I have zero complaints and no regrets. The timbre match of the Sierra-2 as surrounds really is excellent. And with pretty much all real world content, I'm never noticing the miniscule shift in sound quality between the Front 5 speakers and the Surrounds. The change in physical location makes a bigger difference than the very slight difference in sound quality, so it just isn't bothersome in any way when I'm actually watching something and paying more attention to the story and what's happening on screen!

So, bottom line, I feel as though I made the right decision. With the Sierra-1 NrT, there was enough of a shift in timbre (still really small, mind you, I want to stress how hyper critical I was being!) that I was thinking there was room for improvement. With the Sierra-2, no such thoughts. Do I still have it in the back of my mind that in a much larger, dedicated theater I might upgrade my Surrounds? Sure! I'm insane, after all :p But for right now, the Sierra-2 are definitely doing their jobs extremely well, and when I'm paying attention to what's happening on screen, the Sierra-2 as Surrounds are never distracting me by having a slightly different timbre from the Front soundstage. That was my goal -- that seamless immersion. So I'm very happy with my current results.

Thanks for checking in! I still have some cleaning up to do in my theater. But I'll post some pictures in a few weeks once that's all done. It's pretty fun in there with my newly upgraded and repaired ATI AT1807 amp, my new Elite HTS reclining sofa, and my 11 ribbon tweeters :D

- Rob H.

[petmotel]

Thanks for the update, really sorry to hear about the family health issues, I hope things work out with a positive resolution! Nothing like real life problems to remind us about the things that matter the most!

I have no doubt that your system sounds incredible! My relatively simple 5.1 configuration still blows my mind ;)!

Jay