Sierra-1 NrT = HT. Towers = Music ?

[Pianist718]

Hi guys,

confusing title, I know.

I own Sierra-1 NrT front/left/center, Rythmik 12" sub and smaller Ascend surrounds.

For home theater, what I have is great, BUT .... when I play (pop, jazz, classical, rock) music via Left and Right (2 ch) stereo, I notice that NrT is a bit toooo bright for my liking and mid levels could be better. Don't get me wrong .... sound is wonderful, BUT, I know that it can sound better.

Now .... I am about to have a baby, so already know that having Sierras on a stand is not practical ... one day, that kid will push them over. :-)

I am leaning towards buying Left/Right towers.

Question: Will changing Sierra-1 NrT to Towers RAAL solve my issue that I have with current set up??? Will I notice a major difference? I know it's kind of subjective but still, from people that heard both NrT and RAAL as well as Sierras and then Towers ....

Thanks

[JustABrah]

I'm sure the raal would help, from what I hear their more laid back, but I'm very interested in the Sierra-1 to tower comparison. Cause if one has a sub to take over the lows and cross it over at 80 wouldn't that open up the mid woofer in the Sierra-1 to act more as a mid range woofer and tweeter for the highs and the sub to handle the lows? The Sierra-2 are just around the corner and that should make them more laid back and take away that brightness your hearing, if they use the raal. I know I couldn't tell much of a difference between the paradigm studio 20s to the studio 60

I'm in a same boat as you as I'm really trying to convince myself to buy the horizon as a LCR but having a hard time justifying the big cost as Sierra-1 sound pretty great. I think Dave made the Sierra-1s too good haha.

[Dark Ranger]

Now .... I am about to have a baby...

Oh my! How did your wife take the news? :p



Question: Will changing Sierra-1 NrT to Towers RAAL solve my issue that I have with current set up??? Will I notice a major difference? I know it's kind of subjective but still, from people that heard both NrT and RAAL as well as Sierras and then Towers

I don't have the NrT Sierra-1s, but I do have a RAAL-equipped Horizon. That tweeter is hands-down the best tweeter I've ever heard. Absolutely no fatigue to my ears, and I'm pretty sensitive to high-frequencies (more than most guys my age). I can't imagine anyone finding the RAAL harsh or bright. With the Towers, you also get a dedicated midrange driver for midder mids. ;)

I'll leave the direct comparison to others, but I can tell you that the NrT has more stored energy and decay time compared to the custom 70-20XR. Maybe that is part of what you're hearing from the Sierra-1 NrT. Your room acoustics can also influence the final sonic signature, namely lots of bare wall space (slap and echo).

[Pianist718]

Oh my! How did your wife take the news? :p






hahaha, funny.

Yea, I am already thinking of kid proofing the house and i know once that kid starts to crawl, my speakers may end up on the floor.

[Mag_Neato]

While "kid-proofing" is a nice excuse to go with the towers, it is not guaranteed. I had some Vandersteen model 1b's and one of them was knocked/pushed over and ended up leaning into the corner of the room. There was slight damage to the veneer on the top plate as well as some gouging of the wall. At least a speaker did not come crashing down from a stand and injure my son! You could use the blue tack or museum wax that many owners of stand mounted monitors use to secure the speaker. Supposed to be very effective. BUT, if you've already convinced yourself that the towers are the way to go and you have the budget, who am I to argue with sound logic!(Pun intended!)

[Pianist718]

While "kid-proofing" is a nice excuse to go with the towers, it is not guaranteed. I had some Vandersteen model 1b's and one of them was knocked/pushed over and ended up leaning into the corner of the room. There was slight damage to the veneer on the top plate as well as some gouging of the wall. At least a speaker did not come crashing down from a stand and injure my son! You could use the blue tack or museum wax that many owners of stand mounted monitors use to secure the speaker. Supposed to be very effective. BUT, if you've already convinced yourself that the towers are the way to go and you have the budget, who am I to argue with sound logic!(Pun intended!)

:-) Hey, will all the extra expenses to come soon, why not use the situation to benefit a bit as well.

I did use the blue tack, but if anyone leans on the stand, it will go down for sure.

my only problem is that my current Sierra-1s are color dark cherry. Unfortunately there is no option now to try to match Sierra-1 center to new towers. Unless David does a custom center for me with Sierra-1 but with box made of the same finish as towers.

I am just curious if I will notice a great difference in music sound when I play 2 chanel direct Sierra NrT vs towers RAAL

[curtis]

I am just curious if I will notice a great difference in music sound when I play 2 chanel direct Sierra NrT vs towers RAAL
"Great" is subjective. I'll say this much, if you don't hear a difference, then there is something wrong with your hearing. :)

[FirstReflect]

I agree that you'd very likely hear a difference. The only problem is that I'm not entirely certain that the Sierra-1 NrT speakers themselves are the current cause of the sounds you find a bit objectionable. I have to say, I'm rather surprised to see the Sierra-1 NrT being described as "a bit too bright", and lacking some mid-range clarity. Just based upon the inherent sound quality characteristics of the speakers themselves, that doesn't really jibe with the sound they're throwing out at you if you were in, say, an anechoic chamber, a sound treated studio, or a wide open field ;)

So, that leads me to believe that the source of your issues are actually part of your current room acoustics.

Here's the thing: the Sierra Towers with RAAL do offer better mid-range clarity, and even better transient response and clarity of detail in the treble thanks to that fabulous RAAL ribbon tweeter! Also, and I think this might be more important than even those factors, it has wonderfully even and controlled polar response, with the off axis response of the RAAL ribbon perfectly matching the off axis response of the mid-range driver. The reason that is so important is because we use the reflected sound off of the side walls of any room to subconsciously get a sense of the room's size. And if there are anomalies and unevenness in the polar response of the speaker, that creates confusion in our brain that causes fatigue, and ruins the illusion of realism. It's a big part of why we can easily tell we are listening to speakers rather than a live performance. The Sierra Towers with RAAL excel in this area, which means a greater illusion of realism, and less fatigue.

So, plenty of good reasons still to upgrade. BUT, because your description of what's bugging you about your Sierra-1 NrT speakers sounds so much like room acoustic problems, I really think you should take a moment to address those issues first! For one thing, fixing the acoustics might make you perfectly happy with your current speakers, and remove the desire to upgrade! And second, it isn't really fair, in my opinion, to buy speakers as wonderful as the Sierra Towers with RAAL, only to put them in a bad acoustic environment. It's the proverbial, "buying a Ferrari to drive in stop-and-go city traffic". ;)

So, a couple of things:

1) tell us all about your room: dimensions, layout, materials, where the doors, windows, and other openings are, and where the furniture is placed. We might be able to spot an obvious problem and offer solutions!

2) talk to Dave and/or the other fine folks here at Ascend. Get their input, for sure.

3) I highly recommend making use of the FREE room analysis service from GiK Acoustics. You can find it here: http://gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/

It's free, the folks at GiK are total professionals and awesome to deal with, and you'll learn a ton about your room, even just from filling out the form and being forced to think about your room acoustically!

[Pianist718]

I agree that you'd very likely hear a difference. The only problem is that I'm not entirely certain that the Sierra-1 NrT speakers themselves are the current cause of the sounds you find a bit objectionable. I have to say, I'm rather surprised to see the Sierra-1 NrT being described as "a bit too bright", and lacking some mid-range clarity. Just based upon the inherent sound quality characteristics of the speakers themselves, that doesn't really jibe with the sound they're throwing out at you if you were in, say, an anechoic chamber, a sound treated studio, or a wide open field ;)

So, that leads me to believe that the source of your issues are actually part of your current room acoustics.

Here's the thing: the Sierra Towers with RAAL do offer better mid-range clarity, and even better transient response and clarity of detail in the treble thanks to that fabulous RAAL ribbon tweeter! Also, and I think this might be more important than even those factors, it has wonderfully even and controlled polar response, with the off axis response of the RAAL ribbon perfectly matching the off axis response of the mid-range driver. The reason that is so important is because we use the reflected sound off of the side walls of any room to subconsciously get a sense of the room's size. And if there are anomalies and unevenness in the polar response of the speaker, that creates confusion in our brain that causes fatigue, and ruins the illusion of realism. It's a big part of why we can easily tell we are listening to speakers rather than a live performance. The Sierra Towers with RAAL excel in this area, which means a greater illusion of realism, and less fatigue.

So, plenty of good reasons still to upgrade. BUT, because your description of what's bugging you about your Sierra-1 NrT speakers sounds so much like room acoustic problems, I really think you should take a moment to address those issues first! For one thing, fixing the acoustics might make you perfectly happy with your current speakers, and remove the desire to upgrade! And second, it isn't really fair, in my opinion, to buy speakers as wonderful as the Sierra Towers with RAAL, only to put them in a bad acoustic environment. It's the proverbial, "buying a Ferrari to drive in stop-and-go city traffic". ;)

So, a couple of things:

1) tell us all about your room: dimensions, layout, materials, where the doors, windows, and other openings are, and where the furniture is placed. We might be able to spot an obvious problem and offer solutions!

2) talk to Dave and/or the other fine folks here at Ascend. Get their input, for sure.

3) I highly recommend making use of the FREE room analysis service from GiK Acoustics. You can find it here: http://gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/

It's free, the folks at GiK are total professionals and awesome to deal with, and you'll learn a ton about your room, even just from filling out the form and being forced to think about your room acoustically!

Great post. Thank you.

I know I have problems with my room acoustics. It's somewhat empty. It's a horizontal room 18 by 12 with 9ft ceiling. Speakers are facing the shorter side ... the 12ft

I have a floor rug but my walls are empty. There are 2 windows on the 18ft side and the other end opens up to a dining/hallway. Opening is about 6ft on the 12ft side.

Speakers are pushed away from back wall by about 1ft (can't move them more forward ... looks weird). They are facing a leather sofa and a leather/glass ottoman.

If adding some foam behind speaker is going to help, I am all for it. If covering corners with the sound dampening, I am for it. I just want to make sure that it will help in sound.

Like I said, for me .... Sierra NrT is very detailed, BUT .... when they play an alto saxophone or another instrument that has high sounding notes, many times it's just toooo bright. Same is with the gun shots in movies .... just too "high pitched".

[curtis]

Have you checked all the settings on your Yamaha. Re-run YPAO?

Foam behind the speaker won't help with higher frequencies. You need to dampen the reflection points. Do you have drapes or covering on the windows?

[Blutarsky]

I can make my Towers sound really brittle via YPAO. Use two channel without Sub for a while , listen critically until you get the positioning right, Then run YPAO. Yamaha say's to empty the room. I got better results with my furniture in place, only moving a coffee table in front of my listening position. Record the results, and don't be afraid to try a few times.

I am sure there are more dissatisfied speaker buyers due to set-up than any flaws in the speakers themselves.
B.

>

[FirstReflect]

You're welcome! And thank you for the kind words. I'm happy you found my reply potentially helpful :)

That definitely sounds, from your description, like a room that would have some issues with early reflections that are potentially too strong, some echoes and reverberance - I'd be downright surprised if you didn't have a pretty noticeable "slap echo" in there - and also some unevenness in the bass due to the room having a large opening to another space (the dining room and hallway).

I would recommend even more highly now that you get in touch with GiK Acoustics and make use of their free Room Analysis service. Obviously, they will make suggestions that include the use of their own products. But it isn't purely a sales pitch. You can always substitute other brands, or other materials and items, entirely. For example, while not quite as effective or predictable as dedicated acoustic panels, you can use more "natural" things like wall-hangings, thick drapes, pillows, plush furniture, etc. as absorption, and things like bookcases, leafy plants, and sculptures as diffusion. The biggest value in what you'll get back from GiK are the recommendations for WHERE you need to place absorptive and diffusive objects, and the priority of where they should go. If you happen to use GiK brand products to do that, well, of course, that is their hope. But what you will be getting from them will be invaluable advice about WHERE the acoustic treatments need to go in your room. And that is information that is WELL worth the exorbitant asking price of FREE. :)

In terms of what I can say just based on your description:

from what you're saying, my guess is that the "slap echo" in your room is the main source of your discontent. Try just sitting in your chair, bring your hands up, and make a short, loud clap. Really pay attention to the sound that follows. I'm fairly certainly you will hear almost a "zing" in the sound, and a pretty clear echo from that loud clap.

If speakers like the Sierra-1 NrT are sounding too "bright", you almost certainly have a pretty bad "slap echo" problem. And, as I said before, while the Sierra Towers with RAAL might improve the sound, it really would be a shame if you were to bring them into that room, but still be disappointed in the sound quality. That would DEFINITELY be a case of the speakers themselves not being the culprit! Buying the Sierra Towers with RAAL would certainly let you know in a hurry if the room's acoustics are the bigger problem! But that's a pretty expensive experiment ;) And if you still weren't happy, due to the real problem being the room's acoustics, well that would just be such a let down.

So, GiK's service is a must, in my opinion. And there is so much more, and so many more options for acoustic treatments than just bits of foam, or ugly panels. There are an endless choice of fabrics. There are patterned fabrics, suede, and even printed or dyed covers. Those printed or dyed covers can be made to look like literally anything you can imagine! They are a wonderful solution when aesthetics are a really big concern. Many people like to decorate their rooms with artwork or posters, anyway. So why not kill two birds with one stone?

You can have temporary panels that go on stands, rather than permanently hanging on the walls or ceiling. Speaking of which, if the walls are not a good option for placement of acoustic treatments, you can do a surprising amount of improvement to your room's acoustics - especially the "slap echo" problem - with ceiling treatments, which are often less intrusive aesthetically. And if ALL panels (even really pretty ones that look like artwork) are a no-go, you can still use all those "natural" objects that I talked about earlier. It's just a matter of having them placed in the correct spots.

The other big consideration that I see right away from your description is the evenness of your bass response in that room. With that fairly large opening to the dining room and hallway, you aren't getting nearly the same "room gain" in the deep bass as you would if your theater area were enclosed. With the 12" Rythmik sub in that sort of room size (the "room size" being the ENTIRE volume of air - including everywhere that the air CAN move in those areas that are open to the theater area), I'd be surprised if your frequency response from top to bottom is truly linear and even.

The way we tend to hear - we make a lot of comparisons, and evaluate sound on a relative scale without even thinking about it. If there is louder bass in the room, we tend to perceive the treble as being quieter than it really is. Similarly, if there is a lack of bass, we tend to think that everything sounds more shrill.

So there's a fairly good chance that some of the perceived "brightness" might be due to a slight lack of low bass. You might also have a situation where the bass response is uneven - as in, some bass notes are considerably louder or quieter than others.

Getting good bass response helps a great deal in the perception of all the higher pitched sounds as being accurate, detailed, and clear. There can be a masking effect if the bass is too pronounced, and, conversely, a sense of everything being too harsh if the bass is a bit too weak.

I don't think the 12" Rythmik itself is any sort of a problem. It's a very potent sub down to 35 or 40Hz or so, which is the most important range in terms of balancing with the mid-range and treble. I'd venture that the super deep 20-25Hz stuff is likely rolling off without the room gain that a sealed room would have added. But what is very likely happening is that you are getting quite a bit of reverberation. With a reflective, echoey room, those long, powerful bass waves are bouncing around for a very long time indeed before they dissipate and lose their power. You're in somewhat of an echo chamber, which means that you might have turned your subwoofer down quite a bit, just so that it would not sound boomy and offensive. And there might also be issues with placement. With a lone subwoofer, from seat to seat, you are going to get large variations in the bass response. Some seats are going to have big peaks and dips at certain frequencies.

I agree with Curtis, also, that calibration and setup of your AV Receiver is tremendously important, as well. But I do not consider EQ (or programs like YPAO or Audyssey room correction) to be a "fix" for acoustic problems. They are much more of a "cherry on top", that can take your audio from being 80 or 90% good and accurate, to 95 or 100%. I know that they are marketed as "correction". Heck, it's right there in the name! "Room correction" :p But if your acoustics or speakers are bad, "room correction" cannot magically make them good. Room correction can make it a little bit better, but there's no magic. It's just filters and EQ altering the sound that's coming out of your speakers a little bit. If there are big problems - like a slap echo - in your room, then you can't fix that with a room correction program. So I always recommend working big to small. Get good speakers, put them in a good room. Place them correctly. Set up all the basic settings in your AV Receiver correctly. THEN use a "room correction" or EQ program to eek out the last little bits of performance. Cherry on top. Not a panacea ;)

So, bottom line is that there is quite a bit to consider in terms of your room! I DO think that swapping out your Sierra-1 NrT speakers for the Sierra Towers with RAAL would give you an improvement. But I really do not think the Sierra Towers would be sounding nearly as good as they CAN sound, and I also worry that they still might not sound as good as you truly want. I can guarantee that the Sierra Towers with RAAL tweeters would not be the problem! But that is why it is all the more important to give them a good room to play in :)

[Pianist718]

As always, great info.
I know I am at Ascend forum but I've also looked into Salk HT2-TL $4,500 speaker or Salk HT2 $3,900.
These seem to get great reviews.

Anyway .... Yesterday had a friend over and we tried tweaking things up a bit.

I noticed that I should not run music through just 2channels as if my Sierras were full range speakers. Seems like best sound I get is when I set music to run through all 7 Channels with the Sub present and crossover at 60. This also makes Sierras not sound toooo bright. Seems like YAPO did it's "correction" by dumbing down highs in the sound. On the negative side it does feel like speakers sound more free and airy when I set them to 2ch only. You can also argue that now my "receiver" is allocating all it's "power" into 2ch instead of distributing it through 5-7 channels.

I was also joking with him that I probably spent more time "tweaking" the sound and reading forums than I spent actually listening to music and enjoying my purchase.

He once again argued that for these great speakers I need a better receiver and a good CD player if I want to listen to music. He did promise to give me his old $800 Sony CD player that he argues does a great job at converting sound which he says is very important. He also is now giving away his $150 monster cables that he feels will make a difference.

Anyhow .... once I changed from CD playing music to Home Theater watching movies, I felt like that's where Sierras shine (in a good sense).

P.S. I plan on moving to a bigger place in the next year, hence I feel like altering my space right now is not needed. I am not getting crazy echo. I still enjoy my sound, especially on HD movies. I do however feel that at some point (just like my friend predicted), I'll move Sierras as Surrounds, use HTM-200 as the sides for 7.1 system and get wither Sierra Towers RAAL or one of those Salk towers mentioned on top of this post.

Now if I only knew for sure that I NEED to upgrade my receiver? :-)

[Asliang]

As always, great info.
I know I am at Ascend forum but I've also looked into Salk HT2-TL $4,500 speaker or Salk HT2 $3,900.
These seem to get great reviews.

Anyway .... Yesterday had a friend over and we tried tweaking things up a bit.

I noticed that I should not run music through just 2channels as if my Sierras were full range speakers. Seems like best sound I get is when I set music to run through all 7 Channels with the Sub present and crossover at 60. This also makes Sierras not sound toooo bright. Seems like YAPO did it's "correction" by dumbing down highs in the sound. On the negative side it does feel like speakers sound more free and airy when I set them to 2ch only. You can also argue that now my "receiver" is allocating all it's "power" into 2ch instead of distributing it through 5-7 channels.

I was also joking with him that I probably spent more time "tweaking" the sound and reading forums than I spent actually listening to music and enjoying my purchase.

He once again argued that for these great speakers I need a better receiver and a good CD player if I want to listen to music. He did promise to give me his old $800 Sony CD player that he argues does a great job at converting sound which he says is very important. He also is now giving away his $150 monster cables that he feels will make a difference.

Anyhow .... once I changed from CD playing music to Home Theater watching movies, I felt like that's where Sierras shine (in a good sense).

P.S. I plan on moving to a bigger place in the next year, hence I feel like altering my space right now is not needed. I am not getting crazy echo. I still enjoy my sound, especially on HD movies. I do however feel that at some point (just like my friend predicted), I'll move Sierras as Surrounds, use HTM-200 as the sides for 7.1 system and get wither Sierra Towers RAAL or one of those Salk towers mentioned on top of this post.

Now if I only knew for sure that I NEED to upgrade my receiver? :-)

Well the 365/465/665 series was the year Yamaha cheaped out and used integrated ICs instead of discrete amps, you could see in the preceding year, the receivers weighed 23lbs, the xx7 series also weighed about 23lbs, but the xx5 series only weighed 18lbs, there was a huge loss in amplification.

So...maybe :)

[Pianist718]

It's weird, but on another forum, an owner of Ascend Sierra 1s said not to use Yamaha receiver with Ascend speakers. He said it;'s not a good pairing because Yamaha makes them sound too bright.

Anyway, just orderd Marantz 7005 and Yamaha 2020 from a place where I can return them at $0 loss. So will demo and see what difference I hear.

[curtis]

Curious...and wanted to make sure.

You did run the YPAO calibration routine, correct? Have you made changes to anything since running YPAO?

[Pianist718]

Curious...and wanted to make sure.

You did run the YPAO calibration routine, correct? Have you made changes to anything since running YPAO?

I did on my rx-v465 and when I compare sound I get through that VS Pure direct, I do hear that Yamaha is dimming down the highs a bit. In my opinion it's still not great.

Best sound I heard was when I demoed Denon 4311, it gave awesome movie sound. Then I played with it more, screwed it up, couldn't get it back to how it sounded, didn;'t feel like reading a 100 page manual, did not want to spend $1,600 and simply returned it.

I hope Marantz 7005 works out as the price is right and looks are nice.

[davef]

I am not sure what the cause is, but when we receive comments about brightness, it is has become fairly common that the customer is using a Yamaha receiver. While I have not tested any, it is because of comments like these that I am not confident in YPAO.

[JustABrah]

You should look at the Anthem MRX, I went to a dealer that sold Anthem, Denon, Yamaha and Marantz and the Anthem really sounded noticeably better with ARC when abing them.

[curtis]

You should look at the Anthem MRX, I went to a dealer that sold Anthem, Denon, Yamaha and Marantz and the Anthem really sounded noticeably better with ARC when abing them.
But were the other receiver using their EQ systems, and calibrated correctly? Just one large variable that should be verified.

[JustABrah]

But were the other receiver using their EQ systems, and calibrated correctly? Just one large variable that should be verified.

Yeah all of them had their eq on, with arc needing a computer to do the eqing of the room vs having it in the avr is pretty big, also the mic Anthem uses is pretty cool vs the others, the Anthem mic has a cd that you can't lose cause its calibrated individually. IMHO Anthem MRX is the best avr that I've heard so far, they do all these little things that seem to matter in the end. Still I wanted to hear the Arcam and Cambridge before I buy the Anthem but I'm not sure it's going to be possible anytime soon since I dont have an Arcam or Cambridge dealer near me, so I might just buy the anthem.

[JustABrah]

I should also add that if one of the other avrs sounded as good as the Anthem I would buy it over the anthem for this reason, I own a Mac, I have limited hard drive space left, I don't have boot camp or windows, so the fact I have to buy windows, install boot camp, install windows and buy the USB connection is kinda a pain in the ass and annoying and this is before I can even go through the arc setup! But after listening the Anthem to the others in the same room and same speakers I think it's worth all that extra hassle.

[curtis]

Yeah all of them had their eq on, with arc needing a computer to do the eqing of the room vs having it in the avr is pretty big, also the mic Anthem uses is pretty cool vs the others, the Anthem mic has a cd that you can't lose cause its calibrated individually. IMHO Anthem MRX is the best avr that I've heard so far, they do all these little things that seem to matter in the end. Still I wanted to hear the Arcam and Cambridge before I buy the Anthem but I'm not sure it's going to be possible anytime soon since I dont have an Arcam or Cambridge dealer near me, so I might just buy the anthem.
the reason why I asked is because dealers use the AVRs with several different speakers. So making sure the EQ systems were configured for the same speakers (and location) is crucial.

[billy p]

I used a Yamaha AS700 with my Sierra 1's(NrT) in a stereo setup & I later move them to my rxv 1800... after selling the 700. I preferred the 1800 YPAO over the integrated amp...using a flat EQ curve I had decent results & was very satisfied on how my Sierra 1's and eventual towers sounded. I know a lot has being discussed about Yamaha having a certain type of sonic signature having come from a Denon 38xx...they (sigs)could in fact exist...I've never experience these anomalies between other brands but with REQ or DSP...well that's another matter...:)

I will say Anthem's ARC...changed everything from my POV. Upon completing my 5 position in room calibration and starting ARC the sound stage from the outset seemed more spacious giving me this airiness feeling as though we moved into a larger room...with YPAO it sounded smaller or more centralized to the listening position & I never had the seamless transition with my main & sub... as I do now...with ARC engaged it simply sounds better.

[Pianist718]

So ........... sound update ....

Yesterday, changed music to play through all speakers with subwoofer instead of just 2ch stereo without sub.
Also ... changed Crossover from 60 to 90.
On receiver did a -1 on Treble

Result .... sound is great. I am getting delivery of Marantz 7005 and Yamaha rx-a2020 today. Don't even know if I should unpack them. Do you ever upgrade even when you are satisfied with the sound? :-)

Still can't get the upgrade bug out of me.


Compared WAV vs FLAC vs 320Kbps MP3 vs 128Kbps MP3.

128 is out ..... 320 is perfect middle (easy to get, sounds close to FLAC)

[billy p]

I would not discount the 7005(Audyssey xt32 w multi EQ) or 2020(YPAO w RSC) giving you a better tranistion from sub & mains allowing proper sub EQ for your room....It was the most notable change with my new AVR....fwiw...I rip CD's @ 320... difficult to discern any differences between higher bitrates with the original.

Good luck... :)

[Pianist718]

So .... sound update ...

David is correct .... Marantz makes Sierras sound much softer and not as bright and ear beaming. Listening to Chaka Khan, if on Yamaha her high pitch vocal was a bit too bright that I wanted to turn down the volume, on Marantz it's soft enough not to jump for the remote. Still hear that high pitch, BUT at least it doesn't hit my ear as bad as it did on Yamaha.

Overall I feel like Yamaha was just taking whatever sound came into it and just throwing it up at me. Marantz on the other hand is controlling it. I notice that movies, etc sound more like they do at the movie theater.

Now .... on a negative side, it feels like Marantz is a bit tooo low on the sound and especially on regular TV programing I actually want to hear more of that bright sound. So ... movies and concerts sound great, but regular cable TV in dolby is so so.

Here are some pics of the EQ, etc that Marantz created.
As always, I had to change back to Speakers = Small and get the crossover at 100.

794

795

796

797

798

799

800

801

802

803

[Blutarsky]

Yamaha AVR's have treble control via the option button. I would like to hear the the Anthem though. My next evolution might be separate Amps and Processor. I just visited a friend with a stereo setup with a lot of headroom. Effortless amplication has its advantages. I had forgotten about it using receivers.

B.

[Pianist718]

One more change I made I think made my sound even better ... I changed the "Ref Level Offset" to -10db I think they say it's better for regular TV dialog listening. Anyone got any info on that setting?

[wtrimble]

I did on my rx-v465 and when I compare sound I get through that VS Pure direct, I do hear that Yamaha is dimming down the highs a bit. In my opinion it's still not great.

Best sound I heard was when I demoed Denon 4311, it gave awesome movie sound. Then I played with it more, screwed it up, couldn't get it back to how it sounded, didn;'t feel like reading a 100 page manual, did not want to spend $1,600 and simply returned it.

I hope Marantz 7005 works out as the price is right and looks are nice.

Just as a point, when using the "Pure Direct" mode on the receiver, it removes all EQ settings the receiver makes after doing a room calibration. It's suppose to be a direct line from source to amplication without and modifications. Same goes for all receivers.

[Pianist718]

Just as a point, when using the "Pure Direct" mode on the receiver, it removes all EQ settings the receiver makes after doing a room calibration. It's suppose to be a direct line from source to amplication without and modifications. Same goes for all receivers.

Yea, the only difference with Marantz is it has the "Pure Direct" option that does a 2.1 so it includes the sub. Sounds pretty good now.

[curtis]

One more change I made I think made my sound even better ... I changed the "Ref Level Offset" to -10db I think they say it's better for regular TV dialog listening. Anyone got any info on that setting?
Does that just make it sound louder?

[Kisakuku]

Does that just make it sound louder?

It results in a smaller boost to treble and base by Audyssey's DynEQ .

[davef]

So .... sound update ...

David is correct .... Marantz makes Sierras sound much softer and not as bright and ear beaming. Listening to Chaka Khan, if on Yamaha her high pitch vocal was a bit too bright that I wanted to turn down the volume, on Marantz it's soft enough not to jump for the remote. Still hear that high pitch, BUT at least it doesn't hit my ear as bad as it did on Yamaha.

Overall I feel like Yamaha was just taking whatever sound came into it and just throwing it up at me. Marantz on the other hand is controlling it. I notice that movies, etc sound more like they do at the movie theater.

Now .... on a negative side, it feels like Marantz is a bit tooo low on the sound and especially on regular TV programing I actually want to hear more of that bright sound. So ... movies and concerts sound great, but regular cable TV in dolby is so so.

Here are some pics of the EQ, etc that Marantz created.
As always, I had to change back to Speakers = Small and get the crossover at 100.



Looks like the Marantz is adding a significant cut at 4kHz on all the speakers. That will definitely make the speakers sound less bright. If there is a way to manually adjust these settings, add 2-3dB to each speaker at 4kHz. Leave everything else the same...

These auto-eq systems really make it hard for us loudspeaker manufacturers :mad:

[Pianist718]

Looks like the Marantz is adding a significant cut at 4kHz on all the speakers. That will definitely make the speakers sound less bright. If there is a way to manually adjust these settings, add 2-3dB to each speaker at 4kHz. Leave everything else the same...

These auto-eq systems really make it hard for us loudspeaker manufacturers :mad:


Major, major update ......

So .... yesterday I closely compared "Pure Direct" to "Stereo 2.1".
Holly cow .... Stereo 2.1 is so much better. Yes David, it's a little too deep and I would like to add just a tad to the highs like you suggested, BUT ... in Pure Direct, speakers were just too bright and once sound becomes louder you feel like you want to grab the remote and lower it.

In STEREO 2.1 ...... almost perfect.

I think that in my situation .... seems like my room is just not good acoustically and thus sound bounces all over the place. Audyssey pretty much cut it to make it sound good.

I do agree though .... just a tad of brightness can be added. I just have to figure out how I can do that :-)


On a DIFF subject.
In the manual I just read....

Subwoofer Mode : Select low range signals to be reproduced by
subwoofer.
• LFE : The low range signal of the channel set to “Small” speaker size is
added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.
• LFE+Main : The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE
signal output from the subwoofer.

My setting is set to LFE+Main. Is this correct?

[Kisakuku]

My setting is set to LFE+Main. Is this correct?

If all speakers are set to "small" (as they should be), then subwoofer mode setting makes no difference.

[Pianist718]

Looks like the Marantz is adding a significant cut at 4kHz on all the speakers. That will definitely make the speakers sound less bright. If there is a way to manually adjust these settings, add 2-3dB to each speaker at 4kHz. Leave everything else the same...

These auto-eq systems really make it hard for us loudspeaker manufacturers :mad:

So, yesterday tried to do what you suggested .... adding more gain to 4kHz ..... even though I am liking my sound the way it is ..... going into MANUAL EQ .... even when I set all parameters the way they show on Audyssey EQ, sound was not the same. Maybe it's because when trying to copy the EQ graph from the way Audyssey did it I couldn't do 100% identical because each line on the graph corresponds to 2 measuress .... meaning that it takes 2 point increase or decreas to visually move from line to line.

this is tough to explain bit doing my best and adding just a tad to 4kHz line made sound not as full as I have it automatically set up by Audyssey. Maybe there is another metric that gets shut off or changed once you change setting to MANUAL EQ ... but ... couldn't do what you suggested doing on my Marantz SR7005.

I am happy though with the sound of speakers ... much more than I was when running Pure Direct. I really think it's my room acoustics that bounce sound all over the place.

P.S. One more thing I can do to brighten them up just a bit is .... Marantz allows to change "tone" in the Manual EQ setting. So .... if it's too bright, to find the perfect middle I can always do a -2 or -4 on Treble (highs).

[Kisakuku]

even when I set all parameters the way they show on Audyssey EQ, sound was not the same. Maybe it's because when trying to copy the EQ graph from the way Audyssey did it I couldn't do 100% identical because each line on the graph corresponds to 2 measuress .... meaning that it takes 2 point increase or decreas to visually move from line to line.


Audyssey XT is not just a graphic equalizer; by defeating it you're losing all the time domain adjustments.

[Pianist718]

Audyssey XT is not just a graphic equalizer; by defeating it you're losing all the time domain adjustments.

so then how do I achieve what Dave suggested? just a little tweak in EQ?

[Kisakuku]

so then how do I achieve what Dave suggested? just a little tweak in EQ?

You can't really. I would start with some simple measures to reduce reflections (throw rugs, etc.) and make sure you run you Audyssey correctly (mic at ear height on a mic stand, all 8 positions, etc.) and see if anything changes.

[Pianist718]

You can't really. I would start with some simple measures to reduce reflections (throw rugs, etc.) and make sure you run you Audyssey correctly (mic at ear height on a mic stand, all 8 positions, etc.) and see if anything changes.

I did use the mic stand, did 6 positions (not 8).
You suggest to do some temporary room treatment just for the time of the Audyssey set up to make it not go so crazy on brightness kill. But then again, if I don't like the 2nd time around, how do I make sure I can go back to my first set up result? Would be a cool feature on a receiver to save your settings if needed.

[Kisakuku]

I did use the mic stand, did 6 positions (not 8).
You suggest to do some temporary room treatment just for the time of the Audyssey set up to make it not go so crazy on brightness kill. But then again, if I don't like the 2nd time around, how do I make sure I can go back to my first set up result? Would be a cool feature on a receiver to save your settings if needed.

The Denon model that corresponds to your Marantz has a network save/load feature, maybe it's not too late to get a different receiver.

[Pianist718]

The Denon model that corresponds to your Marantz has a network save/load feature, maybe it's not too late to get a different receiver.

I can get Denon 4311 at similar price right now. :-)

[Kisakuku]

I can get Denon 4311 at similar price right now. :-)

That would be quite an upgrade over the Marantz because of Audyssey XT32 and a bunch of other features. I love my 4311. The new X4000 is also about to come out and might be another good alternative.

[Pianist718]

That would be quite an upgrade over the Marantz because of Audyssey XT32 and a bunch of other features. I love my 4311. The new X4000 is also about to come out and might be another good alternative.

I had 4311 for 2 weeks. Got so intimidated and uninspired by that Users Manual that I didn't even perform Audyssey properly and shipped it back to the store. I can get it now for $1,200

you think it's a big upgrade from Marantz SR7005???

[Kisakuku]

I had 4311 for 2 weeks. Got so intimidated and uninspired by that Users Manual that I didn't even perform Audyssey properly and shipped it back to the store. I can get it now for $1,200

you think it's a big upgrade from Marantz SR7005???

Read batpigworld.com and Denon threads on AVS and the manual will be a lot less intimidating. 4311 has better room correction (XT32 has 512 filters for both satellites and subs vs 16 satellite filters and 128 subwoofer filters in XT), better built-in amps and a lot of other stuff. X4000 might be a better value though; I would call up AVS and see what their price for it will be.

[davef]

Are you taking the Audyssey measurements with the grilles on or off? If off, put the grilles back on and run Audyssey. The grilles will decrease the HF energy by a small amount. If you took the measurements with the grilles on, hang a small piece of toilet paper in front of each tweeter, put the grilles back on and re-run Audyssey. This will fake Audyssey into boosting the highs ever so slightly :)

[Pianist718]

Are you taking the Audyssey measurements with the grilles on or off? If off, put the grilles back on and run Audyssey. The grilles will decrease the HF energy by a small amount. If you took the measurements with the grilles on, hang a small piece of toilet paper in front of each tweeter, put the grilles back on and re-run Audyssey. This will fake Audyssey into boosting the highs ever so slightly :)

That's a very clever approach.
To tell you the truth ... because of my room acoustics and empty walls for the most part, this dimmed down sound actually sounds very nice. At 100 crossover and turning down the sub just a bit ... overall sound is very nice. I hear bigger difference when I change the file source actually .... Example .... 320kbps MP3 via USB VS Audio CD via Sony SACD player.

which brings me to my next question that I don't know if I'll get an answer to here ....

I enjoy the ease of finding a good quality 320kbps MP3 or a FLAC file, drop it on my USB and stick it into my Samsung BD-ES6000 bluray ($150). Only problem is that it sounds wayyy worse than regular CD (same file size as FLAC) but that plays on my Sony C222ES ($500 back in a day player).

Question .... is it because Sony has better guts that make music sound better? Better connection (Sony uses Analog cables, my blu-ray uses HDMI)?

How do I make my USB stored FLAC/MP3 sound better? Will upgrading to a better Blu-Ray player help???

[curtis]

Question .... is it because Sony has better guts that make music sound better? Better connection (Sony uses Analog cables, my blu-ray uses HDMI)?

How do I make my USB stored FLAC/MP3 sound better? Will upgrading to a better Blu-Ray player help???
Without really knowing what you are hearing, how the file is being processed, how the systems is setup when playing different sources, or what you prefer, it is hard to say what will be better.

The HDMI cable is transferring the file digitally to your receiver, and IMO, that should be better.

[natetg57]

How do I make my USB stored FLAC/MP3 sound better? Will upgrading to a better Blu-Ray player help???

I have a 500gb hard drive plugged directly into my Denon 991 and I think it sounds great. I have FLAC files ripped from CD's, FLAC downloaded from Murfie, and higher res files mostly from HD tracks. I would highly recommend downloading the sampler from hd tracks.

[Pianist718]

by the way ... regarding FLAC and WAV files on USB ... is this going to get the sound better
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=853818&is=REG&Q=&A=details

24 bit 192khz usb dac


Will it be better than sticking my USB into my $150 bluray player?

[natetg57]

Have you tried plugging directly into receiver as a comparison? Especially since you said you weren't completely happy with sound through blu-ray player.

[Pianist718]

Have you tried plugging directly into receiver as a comparison? Especially since you said you weren't completely happy with sound through blu-ray player.

When i plug the usb stick into receiver, it actually does not recognize it. Only iphone is recognized

[natetg57]

It may need reformatted as fat16 or fat32

[Pianist718]

Are you taking the Audyssey measurements with the grilles on or off? If off, put the grilles back on and run Audyssey. The grilles will decrease the HF energy by a small amount. If you took the measurements with the grilles on, hang a small piece of toilet paper in front of each tweeter, put the grilles back on and re-run Audyssey. This will fake Audyssey into boosting the highs ever so slightly :)

I can also turn my Dynamic EQ OFF and be done with it.

I noticed that for regular TV programming the changed EQ that significantly lowers the 4hz frequency is fine. I hear natural sound, it's all good. For movies and music however, it makes the sound too dimmed, so ... Turn off the EQ that Audyssey set and it's much crisper.

what do you think?