Speaker cable quality

[musicguy]

I know this might be a mood point. But my center channel sounded a little more open fuller when i used a better speaker cable. Anybody else experiment with better cable on the center channel. How important is this? Yes im new to AV. Always been a 2 channel guy.

Thanks for you thoughts.

[Stump909]

Were the gauges different? From everything I've read, once you reach a certain level of quality (which isn't too hard to attain), more expensive cables will not provide an improvement. Maybe the original wire was defective or corroded?

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

The two popular brands on the net are monoprice and blue jean cables. Both are inexpensive, and meet all realistic needs. Don't buy into the nonsense that a 500 dollar speaker wire will make any difference.

[chas]

Ascend sells some good quality wire (on the Accessories page):

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/accssintro.html

[Dread Pirate Robert]

I know this might be a mood point. But my center channel sounded a little more open fuller when i used a better speaker cable. Anybody else experiment with better cable on the center channel. How important is this? Yes im new to AV. Always been a 2 channel guy.

As long as the resistance of the cable is kept reasonably low, personally I've never been able to perceive any differences. It wouldn't hurt to use a thicker cable (thicker copper conductor, that is) than necessary, and the same goes for cables of higher build quality, but if you do so it would be for peace of mind rather than a perceivable improvement in sound quality, in my opinion.


Were the gauges different? From everything I've read, once you reach a certain level of quality (which isn't too hard to attain), more expensive cables will not provide an improvement.

That's right, one may measure a bit better than the others in capacitance and/or inductance, for example, but for speakers this doesn't matter in practical terms as long as you use something like lamp cord or better--just two copper conductors of sufficient thickness (important, as this can make a difference), stranded or solid (stranded is generally preferred because it is more flexible and resilient for convenience and peace of mind, respectively).


Maybe the original wire was defective or corroded?

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

The thing about cheaper cables is that they seem to stand a greater chance of corroding, but then again if you're using enough copper, according to the chart linked above, then it shouldn't have a noticeable effect (unless it corroded all the way through or significantly along most of its length, but that's fairly unlikely).


The two popular brands on the net are monoprice and blue jean cables. Both are inexpensive, and meet all realistic needs. Don't buy into the nonsense that a 500 dollar speaker wire will many any difference.

Exactly, nobody's ears could detect a difference anyway, as the speaker--a mechanical device with moving parts--is always the weakest link in the audio chain. The two-conductor cables from BJC are affordable and made in the USA by Belden, a major supplier of professional cables. The cables from Monoprice will sound just as good for about half the price, though.

I use the 12 AWG cable from BJC myself for some peace of mind, but I can't tell a difference from the old 18 AWG (much thinner) Home Depot lamp cord that I had been using, even though the latter was slightly but noticeably oxidizing inside the insulation. It just feels better to use a quality cable of more than adequate size, as long as it's reasonably priced. Well, actually, I believe that the thicker gauge does help with the long runs to my surrounds, which seem to sound better now (with no formal testing), but the front speakers sound exactly the same as before--either I imagine hearing a difference in the surrounds or the resistance was too high before, as indicated by the above chart (use the 4 ohm column for Ascend Acoustics speakers).

[wader2k]

"(use the 4 ohm column for Ascend Acoustics speakers)"

I thought the 170 and 340's were rated at 8 ohm?

[Dread Pirate Robert]

I thought the 170 and 340's were rated at 8 ohm?

It's never quite that simple. Their average impedances are about 8 ohms, as specified, but if you look at their impedance graphs, all of Ascend's speakers reach down to about 5 or even 4 ohms in certain frequency ranges. This is not uncommon among speakers in general, although some "8 ohm" nominal impedance speakers never do go much lower than 8 ohms (while others do). To be safe, I thought I'd recommend the 4 ohm column in the speaker wire table, so that the resulting frequency response of each speaker does not noticeably begin to mirror its impedance graph.

As for "nominal" impedance ratings, I'm not even sure what that means or if there is an industry standard way of determining it in the first place. Notice that Dave doesn't provide such a spec, not because he's hiding anything but probably because it doesn't tell us much. Whether a speaker is difficult or easy for amplifiers to drive additionally depends on its electrical phase graph, and matching each of these up against their corresponding impedance graphs shows that they should be relatively easy to drive for most every amp (because the phase is always near zero when the impedance gets low, which means that with regular program material the amp is not going to be overly stressed and overheat). So they're all broadly compatible with regular "8 ohm" amps (that's all we need to know), but when we're talking about wire resistance, I feel better taking those 4 ohm impedance dips into account.

[wader2k]

Gotcha. Nothing is ever simple!

[billy p]

All you need to know about speaker wire?


http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[davef]

All you need to know about speaker wire?


http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

There is some good information at that site - also some not so good...

[davef]

It's never quite that simple. Their average impedances are about 8 ohms, as specified, but if you look at their impedance graphs, all of Ascend's speakers reach down to about 5 or even 4 ohms in certain frequency ranges. This is not uncommon among speakers in general, although some "8 ohm" nominal impedance speakers never do go much lower than 8 ohms (while others do). To be safe, I thought I'd recommend the 4 ohm column in the speaker wire table, so that the resulting frequency response of each speaker does not noticeably begin to mirror its impedance graph.

As for "nominal" impedance ratings, I'm not even sure what that means or if there is an industry standard way of determining it in the first place. Notice that Dave doesn't provide such a spec, not because he's hiding anything but probably because it doesn't tell us much. Whether a speaker is difficult or easy for amplifiers to drive additionally depends on its electrical phase graph, and matching each of these up against their corresponding impedance graphs shows that they should be relatively easy to drive for most every amp (because the phase is always near zero when the impedance gets low, which means that with regular program material the amp is not going to be overly stressed and overheat). So they're all broadly compatible with regular "8 ohm" amps (that's all we need to know), but when we're talking about wire resistance, I feel better taking those 4 ohm impedance dips into account.

Wonderful post Dread, and dead-on with regard to loudspeaker impedance. Thanks!

[GirgleMirt]

I say go with whatever wins this award (http://mniec.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/snake-oil-of-the-year-award.jpg?w=594), that way you're sure to get the best!


There is some good information at that site - also some not so good...
Dave, don't tell me you believe in cable risers, cable directivity or burning in a cable!!! ;) I'm sure I'm not the only one who's curious to know what you're talking about!

[Stump909]

I say go with whatever wins this award (http://mniec.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/snake-oil-of-the-year-award.jpg?w=594), that way you're sure to get the best!


Dave, don't tell me you believe in cable risers, cable directivity or burning in a cable!!! ;) I'm sure I'm not the only one who's curious to know what you're talking about!

I'm really curious as well. With such contrasting viewpoints on the issue, it's always nice to hear the arguments behind differing opinions.

[SGCSG1]

Your own experience is the only thing that matters.

Borrow some different cables and experiment.

[Kisakuku]

Your own experience is the only thing that matters.

Borrow some different cables and experiment.

And that's how audiophile myths are propagated. Without a proper double-blind testing protocol, our experience is heavily influenced by our biases and expectations.

[Stump909]

And that's how audiophile myths are propagated. Without a proper double-blind testing protocol, our experience is heavily influenced by our biases and expectations.

Exactly. If there were objective reports or double-blind tests showing that "Gimmick A" actually produced a measurable improvement over generic 12AWG cables, I'd be really interested in seeing them. Still, I'd like to hear what Dave disagrees with in the article.

[davef]

I say go with whatever wins this award (http://mniec.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/snake-oil-of-the-year-award.jpg?w=594), that way you're sure to get the best!


Dave, don't tell me you believe in cable risers, cable directivity or burning in a cable!!! ;) I'm sure I'm not the only one who's curious to know what you're talking about!


Exactly. If there were objective reports or double-blind tests showing that "Gimmick A" actually produced a measurable improvement over generic 12AWG cables, I'd be really interested in seeing them. Still, I'd like to hear what Dave disagrees with in the article.

My disagreements with the inforrmation presented only had to do with the opinions presented on how loudspeaker impedances are rated. As quoted from the site

"The rated impedance is normally the lowest value in the curve"

Not correct....

This was really the only section I read, I rarely read up on cables as they are the simplest of devices consisting of (3) specifications: inductance, capacitance and resistance. I have indeed measured differences in cables and I once heard 2 distinct differences in 2 specialized cables. One was wound in such a way as to have very high inductance and the other had high capacitance. The cable with high inductance sounded warmer due to a mild roll-off of the high frequencies and the cable with high capacitance sounded more detailed but thin. These cables were specifically designed for their intended purposes -- to determine whether higher inductance or higher capacitance was preferred...

That said, you all well know I am not a believer in the cable industry, although I do wish Ascend had a product that I could sell with a ten times (or more) markup ;)

[Dark Ranger]

That said, you all well know I am not a believer in the cable industry, although I do wish Ascend had a product that I could sell with a ten times (or more) markup ;)

Wish no further...I have created the prototype Ascend cable riser. This custom tweak promises to reduce interference from cellular towers, eliminate static discharge from dust bunnies, and obliterate polar ice cap erosion from global warming. It's also guaranteed to make your sound better by 230%. You'll get more powerful woofing, midder mids, and crispy highs.

All of this can be had for the amazingly-low introductory price of $299 per riser. By a pack of 10 and save $250!

http://xe5.xanga.com/beec423611133184231494/z141187228.jpg

I'll let you run with my idea as long as I get 21.5% of the profits.

[GirgleMirt]

Dave: Interesting! Would you describe those two cables as 'broken by design' though? Seems so, so no matter if they 'sounded' different (skewed the signal a certain way), they would be worst than the most basic copper cable...

I guess I just yearn for more objectivity in audio... A cable is a cable; not an EQ.. there's no magic gremlins to attack cables!! I think it was the russell page mentions using a cloth hanger as speaker wire; and it worked and sounded fine...

Basically, two camps, those who believe, and those who don't.. Imho, only one of those 2 are rational.. Can cables make a diff, yeah, but they should not; if they do, they are inadequate or broken; inferior...

[Blutarsky]

I know that some cables can make subtle differences. Sure is a big, and expensive task to find out though. Reviews are worthless.

B.

[GirgleMirt]

I know that some cables can make subtle differences. Sure is a big, and expensive task to find out though. Reviews are worthless.

B.
Only if by difference you mean in your wallet, sure. (and then most likely it's not subtle at all...) Otherwise, I'd say no... Or if they do, they are broken...

It's like saying, I don't know... Does a fork change the taste of food? If your fork changes the taste of whatever you are eating, you've got a problem... Maybe it's dirty and there's left over food on it, maybe it's made if lead or cheap ass toxic plastic, but whatever the reason, if you can taste your utensils while eating food, something's wrong...

It's exactly the same for speaker wire. If your speaker wire alters the signal so that there's an audible difference, you've got a problem on your hands... Some guy raving about the sound of a speaker cable is akin to a lunatic raving about the taste of his fork... Yeah ok your fork has a taste and you love the taste of your fork, wtf, that's not a purpose of a fork... You want to change the taste of your food, put some spices, change the cooking, whatever! Music is exactly the same... It's a CABLE, it transmits an electrical signal, the perfect cable would it perfectly, basically any decently sized copper wire does it to near perfection (nowhere near as badly as blind tests could detect), so if a cable sounds differently, something is off...

Subtle differences? No... If there's subtle differences, one of the cable is defective or inadequate, or even worst, broken by design... And if you pay a lot of $$$ for a worst cable than just plain old ordinary copper cable, I don't know what to say... Something about a fool and his money ;)

[Blutarsky]

I personally use Blue Jeans Cable. Speaker placement, and room treatments are more valuable.


B.

[hman]

My cousin earned his phd in audiology at MIT. He has been, for decades, the audiology department chair at a major UK university. He is one of the world's leading experts in the science of sound. There are only 4 or 5 people in the world that are able to review his published work. Several years ago, he told me that the human ear is incapable of discerning the difference between sound transmitted through 4 figure speaker wire and a clothes hanger. I'm sure he was exaggerating a bit, but I got his point.

What I got out of this was that "great wire" is probably no better than "good wire" as far as our ears can hear.

H

[Blutarsky]

:eek:Still, enormous full range speakers, with 500W mono blocs, wouldn't look right with skinny little cables.

If Audio had no subjective opinions, no one would read these forums, or the glossy magazines. The industry would wither.

Dave would become exhausted from making speakers to fill the void.

Blutarsky

[davef]

Wish no further...I have created the prototype Ascend cable riser. This custom tweak promises to reduce interference from cellular towers, eliminate static discharge from dust bunnies, and obliterate polar ice cap erosion from global warming. It's also guaranteed to make your sound better by 230%. You'll get more powerful woofing, midder mids, and crispy highs.

All of this can be had for the amazingly-low introductory price of $299 per riser. By a pack of 10 and save $250!

http://xe5.xanga.com/beec423611133184231494/z141187228.jpg

I'll let you run with my idea as long as I get 21.5% of the profits.

Love it, and I will even give you 25% of the profits! ;)


Dave: Interesting! Would you describe those two cables as 'broken by design' though? Seems so, so no matter if they 'sounded' different (skewed the signal a certain way), they would be worst than the most basic copper cable...

Exactly, as far as I was concerned -- both cables were broken by design. A cable should not alter the original source signal in any way, and even the most basic speaker cable will not.

[DougMac]

I appreciate Dave's no nonsense viewpoint on audio items. Speaker cables is a contentious subject, everyone in this thread did a good job expressing their opinions dispassionately.

I used 14AWG plenum speaker cable from Monoprice. I went with 14 instead of 12 because it worked better with my banana plugs and it was easier to snake in conduit. No run is longer than 30', so I feel comfortable with the gauge. It's a 7.1 system with two cables to L/C/R to allow bi-wiring, if I so desire. I actually tried it and couldn't hear a difference. There's nearly 300' of speaker wire in the home theater.

[Dark Ranger]

I appreciate Dave's no nonsense viewpoint on audio items. Speaker cables is a contentious subject, everyone in this thread did a good job expressing their opinions dispassionately.

A big +1

I think this is a testament about the majority of Ascend owners. Based on my time here in the forums (even way before I officially signed up), I prefer the rational and level-headed approach to all things audio here compared to other message boards. Rather than be a most wretched hive of scum and villainy, the Ascend forum is a refreshing oasis. :)

Regarding speaker cable, I've come to believe that money is better spent in other areas, so I bought myself some quality cable and called it a day. I'm currently using the Ultralink 14-4 (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/cable/speakcable.html) offered by Ascend for all four surrounds and center channel in my HT. It's wired to 11.2 AWG and all runs are 50 feet or less. I'm also using the Ultralink 14-4 (wired to 11.2) for the 170s in my bedroom system. My Sierra-1 mains in the HT use a different brand of cable because I wanted bananas pre-installed plus a longer length than the Ultralink MX-2 (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/cable/matrixspkr.html) offered, otherwise I would have chosen the MX-2.

At the end of the day, I'd much rather spend my money on magic crystals, cable risers, and CD anti-vibration mats. Wait, that's not right. I'd rather spend my money on speakers, quality source material, and good food. :p

[billy p]

At the end of the day...I decided on the ultralink cables myself and called it a day...yeah...I tried my hand at DIY....that proved more costly and IMO they didn't look nearly as nice as the UL....:). After all this tinkering it was a small price to pay for piece of mind...:cool:

[Brannigan]

I think quality is important but wouldn't go overboard. My headphone extension cable I got from best buy back in the day was literally incapable of transmitting sound properly. I had to twist the contact points to stop the crackling and certain frequencies would drop out. I upgraded to a nice mogami ext gold cable and it sounds absolutely flawless even with 10 extra feet between the amp and my phones. Most of the problem was from oxidation but I don't doubt the quality of the cable itself contributes. My home depot 12ga speaker wire was looking pretty shabby and green tinted after all these years so I got some belden 10ga from blue jeans cable for 96 cents a foot and splurged on a nice new toslink cable for about $15 (already paying shipping anyways why not). Between the 2 cables I "feel" like there was an improvement but it's subtle and could be a result of expectations or even the fact that my speakers are in a slightly different position because I had to turn them around to install the new cables. I'm still happy because the build quality is good and it's reassuring to know I have a solid connection with no bottlenecks. These speakers can handle 300 watts and I want the connection to be as close as possible to having the binding posts on the back of the speakers welded directly to the binding posts on the back of my amp so my babies get %100 of what the amp can give. But, I wouldn't go spending hundreds on this stuff. Just get something solid with a warranty and some kind of science behind it. I tell myself that the new toslink cable has 1.23% less jitter but it's probably bs. People pay way more for shrinks to make them feel better and they have to go every week. Cables last years!

[GirgleMirt]

I agree, there's quality products sold at a reasonable price, many already mentioned here, and then there's other products sold at an unreasonable prices with bogus performance claims boosting the price.

I use plain 14AWG stranded copper wire with cheap banana plugs... I'd bet you a grand no one could tell the difference with/without the banana plugs attached.

What I'd be curious to know right now, is how much oxidation/corrosion would affect the cable... From the Russel page:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire5.jpg

All inexpensive wires are not the same, However. This wire at the right was sold as speaker wire several years ago by such places as Home Depot and Lowes. It sold for 33 cents/foot. It had transparent insulation and was 12-gauge. It was much less expensive than the brand names. It did not have any coding to identify one of the wires for proper phasing. I had some of this wire for about 6 months and noticed it was turning color. Now it has turned a very pronounced green on the surface of the copper wire, indicating a chemical interaction with the insulation and the copper. A new piece of wire is at the right for comparison. Although the wire may not corrode any further, it doesn't inspire confidence, particularly if the insulation comes close to the connecting terminals.

Perhaps the transparent insulation was an attempt to mimic the more expensive speaker wires. Without researching the chemical properties of the insulation or the need to code one of the wires, it was not well thought out for use as speaker wire. I have heard complaints by others about the same problems. The normal lighting wires and wire supplied with the receiver shown above do not have these problems. I still have some of the #16 lamp cord that was used at the shows back in the 1970’s and it still shows no sign of oxidation, corrosion or patina.
I doubt a little oxidation/corrosion would be audible... :confused: Thoughts? For it to be it would have to be on the part of the terminals and compromise the connection, but even then with a normal bit of pressure I doubt it would be significant as significant contact would still be achieved with the copper... And maybe the oxidation itself isn't that horrendous as a conductor and again how much can there be? (edit; not great..) Anyhow, to be safe (and original ease of plugging/unplugging) I put a bit of solder on the ends of my speaker wire... :)

And to be fair to quality wire, I was once in a bad spot and needed to buy wire and there was only this high end audiophile shop lol I bought their least expensive wire, and it was a pleasure to work with, easy to strip with some kind of paper between wire and insulator, was great! ;)

[Asliang]

All wire is going to oxidize eventually so new wire u buy certainly might sound better but it's not due to "r&d" or space magic.