Considering upgrading to Sierra-1's

[noteworthy]

I very recently purchased a pair of CBM-170 SE's but am now considering the Sierra-1's. Originally I had planned on getting the CBM-170 SE's, CMT-340 SE Center, and a ~$500 subwoofer. Now I'm considering LCR Sierra-1's and a ~$500 subwoofer. The setup will be for all around use - movies, video games, and music. While I may be focused on one (or two) of the three at any given time I still want all of them to sound really good. My room is small at only 11'x11'x8' and I don't listen at very loud volumes. I will be using a Denon AVR-1712 which has 90 WPC.

Based on what I've read about the Sierra-1's I'm expecting music to sound better compared to the CBM-170 SE's. What I want to know is if I would be losing anything with movies and games with the LCR Sierra-1's, particularly in regards to the center (CMT-340 SE vs Sierra-1), taking into account my small room. Would the Sierra-1 setup be a step up in all regards for movies, games, music? Does the CMT-340 SE Center match well with the Sierra-1's or would I be better off with the Sierra-1 center?

[GirgleMirt]

With Sierras you'd get an improvement and clarity and detail, improved imaging, as well as bass. If you don't have a sub yet, I'd say go for Sierras and see if you want to add a sub. I've used mine for years without a sub and they definitely have very good bass. I was about to add "for their size", but anyhow, lets just say that I've had 1600$ floorstanding speakers and the Sierra bass was better... Very good is relative though, and in absolute terms when there's speakers costing 100x more, of course "very good" is relative to the price point. Not ultra low bass (~40hz), but quite punchy and tight. Quite decent!

From 170SE graphs & my experience with the Sierras, Sierras might be a bit more laid back than the 170SE. And the NrTs would be a bit more forward sounding. Or hey, Sierras are around 950$ I think, the Towers are 1800 ish I think, they have twice the woofers so improved bass, they have a dedicated mid, the NrT tweeter, I'd well consider a pair of towers for 2k rather than Sierra-1s + 500$ sub. I think most will recommend a higher end sub anyhow for the Sierras...

But hey, it depends on budget and price point ;) So having the 340SE, Sierras-1 and Nrts, not having heard the Ascend towers though, say I had the 340SEs and was looking for an upgrade, if I had 2000$, I'd probably go for the towers. My logic: NrT tweeter, mid woofer, 2x bass woofers. Towers go lower than Sierra1s, with more authority... And IMHO, high end and mids is a bit more important than 20-30hz.. (towers, without having heard, should be most sufficient! )

Btw, how do the towers compare to the Sierra 1 and NrT in terms of presentation? (laid back, forward, etc..) From what I've read, I'm sort of under the impression it would be between the two... Or does the NrT implementation of the towers more similar to the Sierra 1 NrTs?

[muzz]

I very recently purchased a pair of CBM-170 SE's but am now considering the Sierra-1's. Originally I had planned on getting the CBM-170 SE's, CMT-340 SE Center, and a ~$500 subwoofer. Now I'm considering LCR Sierra-1's and a ~$500 subwoofer. The setup will be for all around use - movies, video games, and music. While I may be focused on one (or two) of the three at any given time I still want all of them to sound really good. My room is small at only 11'x11'x8' and I don't listen at very loud volumes. I will be using a Denon AVR-1712 which has 90 WPC.

Based on what I've read about the Sierra-1's I'm expecting music to sound better compared to the CBM-170 SE's. What I want to know is if I would be losing anything with movies and games with the LCR Sierra-1's, particularly in regards to the center (CMT-340 SE vs Sierra-1), taking into account my small room. Would the Sierra-1 setup be a step up in all regards for movies, games, music? Does the CMT-340 SE Center match well with the Sierra-1's or would I be better off with the Sierra-1 center?

I originally bought a pr of 170 se's, and a 340 se CC, and then upgraded to Sierra 1's for LCR, and moved the 170's to surround duty(putting the 340sec back in it's box-where it still sits).
I found the Sierras to be a more pleasant presentation, especially at higher volumes, and as stated, they can be used in 2 channel without a sub at moderate volume if that is desired, where as the 170's definitely need a sub...depends on your usage.
I have no issue at all with the Sierra1 center channel, and I used my setup everyday, all day, because I didn't have them matched with a TV, but with a front projector- so it was my main source of audio for TV, sports/games on pc etc....
No issues at all, I feel the Sierra1's sound great, and were definitely worth the upgrade.

[noteworthy]

I originally bought a pr of 170 se's, and a 340 se CC, and then upgraded to Sierra 1's for LCR, and moved the 170's to surround duty(putting the 340sec back in it's box-where it still sits).
I found the Sierras to be a more pleasant presentation, especially at higher volumes, and as stated, they can be used in 2 channel without a sub at moderate volume if that is desired, where as the 170's definitely need a sub...depends on your usage.
I have no issue at all with the Sierra1 center channel, and I used my setup everyday, all day, because I didn't have them matched with a TV, but with a front projector- so it was my main source of audio for TV, sports/games on pc etc....
No issues at all, I feel the Sierra1's sound great, and were definitely worth the upgrade.

What do you consider moderate volume from an AVR db setting standpoint? I don't think the Sierra-1's won't be loud enough in my room and at my preferred listening levels, but I want to make sure.

[curtis]

noteworthy...I'm also replying to your questions on AVS.

muzz likes his stuff loud....and he used to play the drums.

Where are you located? Maybe someone could give you a demo.

[muzz]

I never tested it with a meter, but I was playing them fairly loud without a sub to see what they could do.....and I like it LOUD, where you said "I don't listen at very loud volumes".
Low-Moderate volumes they can handle and produce some decent bass easily, at loud volumes you would still want a sub, although I personally prefer a sub at any volume.

Like I said, I felt they were definitely worth the upgrade, and after already going through it,I would make the same decision again.....although I would possibly be looking into the upgraded NRT Tweeter.

I don't see you having any issues at all driving the Sierras with a decent 90 WPC AVR, especially in that small space you are in.....from what you said above, I'd be surprised if you get past 6 on a 1-10 dial.

[Dark Ranger]

Hi noteworthy,

There is a lot of great feedback here, so I'll make this shorter and more from my own experience.

I own a pair of 170 SE for my bedroom and a regular Sierra-1 pair for my reference system. The 170s are fantastic speakers and I really love them. However, I can say that the Sierra-1s offer *noticeably* more detail and resolution, plus extended and detailed bass response, superior imaging, and many other things. For music, I definitely prefer the Sierra-1s. They do a great job with movies and games, too.

I agree with GirgleMirt that the Sierra-1 sounds more laid-back and polite than the 170s. Also, to my ears the 170s have a bit more "edge," crispness, and energy with the high frequencies, but nowhere near fatiguing. In contrast, I find the Sierra-1s to sound a bit more airy and smooth with higher frequencies.

Quite honestly, you can't go wrong with any of Dave's speakers. If music carries a high priority, I recommend the Sierra-1s without hesitation. Timbre matching is surprisingly good. You may notice some differences between the 340 center and Sierra-1 mains, primarily in the mids and highs. My first recommendation would be to get 3 Sierra-1s for LCR. That would be optimal. However, I think the 340 center would be fine if budget is an issue. :)

[noteworthy]

I'm located in Northern CA, but I'm fine without an demo.

As far as volume level, playing Toy Story 3 via PS3, I found -25db to be loud enough. When I increased the volume to -20db it was uncomfortably loud during any loud scenes. I also listened to some music FLAC files and depending on the song -35db to -25db was loud enough.

[noteworthy]

Hi noteworthy,

There is a lot of great feedback here, so I'll make this shorter and more from my own experience.

I own a pair of 170 SE for my bedroom and a regular Sierra-1 pair for my reference system. The 170s are fantastic speakers and I really love them. However, I can say that the Sierra-1s offer *noticeably* more detail and resolution, plus extended and detailed bass response, superior imaging, and many other things. For music, I definitely prefer the Sierra-1s. They do a great job with movies and games, too.

I agree with GirgleMirt that the Sierra-1 sounds more laid-back and polite than the 170s. Also, to my ears the 170s have a bit more "edge," crispness, and energy with the high frequencies, but nowhere near fatiguing. In contrast, I find the Sierra-1s to sound a bit more airy and smooth with higher frequencies.

Quite honestly, you can't go wrong with any of Dave's speakers. If music carries a high priority, I recommend the Sierra-1s without hesitation. Timbre matching is surprisingly good. You may notice some differences between the 340 center and Sierra-1 mains, primarily in the mids and highs. My first recommendation would be to get 3 Sierra-1s for LCR. That would be optimal. However, I think the 340 center would be fine if budget is an issue. :)

By "more laid-back" do you mean they are less bright than the 170 SE's? I have pretty sensitive ears and find that at higher volumes and with certain content that the 170 SE's can be a bit bright. Room acoustics could also be a factor.

[GirgleMirt]

By "more laid-back" do you mean they are less bright than the 170 SE's? I have pretty sensitive ears and find that at higher volumes and with certain content that the 170 SE's can be a bit bright. Room acoustics could also be a factor.
yep, some mids/highs appear slightly farther (less loud), so indeed, could be described as less bright (eventhough 170 are not 'bright' speakers).

Room size helps for loudness, small is a plus, but good point about bass limitations at high spl! Although I never really bottomed my sierra woofers, could happen if u played really loud!

And another thing, maybe brightness 'sensitivity' at high spl has to do with distortion... I'd doubt 170 would be at fault at reasonnable levels, maybe the amp strains a bit... Or maybe it's just a laid back sound preference...

[curtis]

I found -25db to be loud enough. When I increased the volume to -20db it was uncomfortably loud during any loud scenes. I also listened to some music FLAC files and depending on the song -35db to -25db was loud enough.
Just remember, that these numbers really have no meaning without a corresponding measurement with an SPL meter.

[Dark Ranger]

By "more laid-back" do you mean they are less bright than the 170 SE's? I have pretty sensitive ears and find that at higher volumes and with certain content that the 170 SE's can be a bit bright. Room acoustics could also be a factor.

I am afflicted with the same "sensitive" ear issue and have difficulty with many speakers because of it. Very easy to get fatigued.

The 170s are definitely "brighter" than than Sierra-1 (non-NrT) in the way you're thinking. However, the 170 is actually not a bright speaker (like GirgleMirt said), and I can listen to the 170 SE and 200 SE (same tweeter) at reasonable volumes without getting uncomfortable ear fatigue. However, at high volumes, I do fatigue faster with the 170/200 than the Sierra-1. In fact, the Sierra-1 is one of a few speakers that I've owned that NEVER fatigue me. I can listen to the Sierra-1s ALL DAY, even at higher volumes, and have never experienced listener fatigue from the high frequencies. This is one reason I absolutely love the Sierra-1s. :)

Since you mention sensitive hearing, I would definitely suggest you grab the Sierra-1s over the 170/340 combo. I have heard that the NrT upgrade adds some of the crispness that you get with metal domes, but without the associated fatigue. However, I would suggest you start with the regular Sierra-1.

Hope that helps.

[muzz]

I am afflicted with the same "sensitive" ear issue and have difficulty with many speakers because of it. Very easy to get fatigued.

The 170s are definitely "brighter" than than Sierra-1 (non-NrT) in the way you're thinking. However, the 170 is actually not a bright speaker (like GirgleMirt said), and I can listen to the 170 SE and 200 SE (same tweeter) at reasonable volumes without getting uncomfortable ear fatigue. However, at high volumes, I do fatigue faster with the 170/200 than the Sierra-1. In fact, the Sierra-1 is one of a few speakers that I've owned that NEVER fatigue me. I can listen to the Sierra-1s ALL DAY, even at higher volumes, and have never experienced listener fatigue from the high frequencies. This is one reason I absolutely love the Sierra-1s. :)

Since you mention sensitive hearing, I would definitely suggest you grab the Sierra-1s over the 170/340 combo. I have heard that the NrT upgrade adds some of the crispness that you get with metal domes, but without the associated fatigue. However, I would suggest you start with the regular Sierra-1.

Hope that helps.

This is a definite IMO, I noticed how much better the Sierras sounded under high volumes for long periods quickly, because I listen loud.....often.
I just moved, so I am stuck listening to my old Boston Acoustics CR75's on the floor in a spare bedroom, wishing I had my entire Ascend setup running again.....this won't happen until I build a dedicated Theater down in the basement.
Sierras get my vote....again! :)

[noteworthy]

Other than the price I think the thing holding me back from purchasing the Sierra-1's is the thought that I may be losing something with movies and games compared to the 170 SE/340 SE CC setup, especially when the Sierra-1 is described as being more musical. And then there's comments from people saying that while they preferred the Sierra-1's, the 170 SE's were close.

I want to fully sort this out in my head so that I can make a definitive decision either way. I'm not there yet. 720

[curtis]

You will not be losing anything when compared to the 170/340, I'm not sure why you think that may be the case. As for the 170 being close, I think you need to get a better understanding of what the poster meant, because they are not in the same class.

[Dark Ranger]

I play occasional PC games ranging from FPS to driving/racing simulation. The Sierra-1s are excellent for this. They also excel with movies.

In my opinion, music can be more difficult to portray accurately compared to movie/game special effects and explosions. You "know" when something is off when playing a favorite music track. The violin doesn't sound right, the brass section is all wrong, or the snare sounds too hollow. So if you can get a speaker that accurately portrays music and voice, it will also excel with reproducing other uncommon sounds.

As mentioned previously, I LOVE the 170 SE, but the Sierra-1 simply reproduces music *better* than the 170. Like Curtis said, these two speakers are not in the same class. :)

[noteworthy]

Thanks guys.

From what I've read many recommend getting the center and then the subwoofer if factoring in movies and games. However, I'm wondering if I would be better off getting the subwoofer first to hear how that improves the sound with the 170 SE's. I know I don't want to get the 340-SE CC since I'm unsure if want to go LCR Sierra-1's. Whatever sub I get for the 170 SE's would be the same sub I would get for the Sierra-1's.

[Dark Ranger]

It's really up to you. :)

If you don't have a subwoofer right now, that would be the first thing I'd do since movies and gaming are important to you. You can high-pass the 170s around 60-80 Hz (definitely experiment here) and that will free up the 170s from trying to reproduce the very low frequencies. After that, you could try a Sierra-1 Center to give you a taste.

Which sub are you looking at? I can say that the Sierra-1 bass quality is excellent. If you want that same quality for a sub, you'll want to look at something like Rythmik's fantastic servo subwoofers. Otherwise, there are lots of very good subs out there that can do the job. Look at companies like Hsu Research, SVS, and Epik to name a few.

[muzz]

Until I just moved, I used my LCR Sierras for everything- Music, TV/Sports, Gaming.

Everything, and they didn't miss a beat on any of it.
I would still team them with a sub though.

As Jacob stated....it's up to you.

[noteworthy]

I've been reading a lot of the Sierra-1 threads here and I'm leaning more and more toward them.

Do the Sierra-1's give you the sense that the artist is right in front of you? Given, placement and calibration of my CBM-170 SE's aren't dialed in yet, but I find that when listening to music I don't get that 'the artist is in my room sound', particularly when not playing them loud.

I've read that the Sierra-1's have great FR from off-axis angles. Better than the CBM-170 SE's? I don't always sit centered.

Another thing I read is that the Sierra-1's have less placement issues and may play better in non-treated rooms. Any truth to this?

[curtis]

I've been reading a lot of the Sierra-1 threads here and I'm leaning more and more toward them.

Do the Sierra-1's give you the sense that the artist is right in front of you? Given, placement and calibration of my CBM-170 SE's aren't dialed in yet, but I find that when listening to music I don't get that 'the artist is in my room sound', particularly when not playing them loud.

I've read that the Sierra-1's have great FR from off-axis angles. Better than the CBM-170 SE's? I don't always sit centered.

Another thing I read is that the Sierra-1's have less placement issues and may play better in non-treated rooms. Any truth to this?

First, I will say that I think you are over analyzing considering you can return the speakers at a minimum cost and save yourself the "I wonder" or the "what ifs".

When you are saying that you are not getting the 'the artist is in my room sound', what are you comparing them to? I tend to think more that the artist is closer or farther away....or in another way to describe it is large window to the sound, and the winder is cleaner vs not as clean or dirty. To me, the Sierra is much more transparent, but a tad warmer than the 170SE. Source material and the room also come into play here.

Off axis for both are excellent. How far off center might you sit?

Yes, the Sierra's may play better in non-treated rooms due their vertical off-axis characteristics which the crossover re-creates advantages of a coaxial type speaker. I have heard the Sierras in a very reflective room and it sounded very good.

[Dark Ranger]

Hi noteworthy,

Let me offer a word of caution here: you may be chasing an elusive goal with wanting to recreate "the artist in front of you."

There are many variables involved beyond what the speaker can offer. For starters, much of it depends on how it was recorded. Modern recordings don't always focus on sound quality and the reproduction of the artist as faithfully as possible. Instead, it's usually about creating a "pleasing" sound with the mix. Then you have casualties of the "loudness war" where the final sound is so far removed from the original that it's not even worth reproducing. Endless compression, no dynamic range, clipping and distortion, etc...and the final mastering result is sold to you, the customer. Then, you attempt to recreate perfection in your listening room all the while having a source recording so far removed from how it actually sounded that it's impossible to "fix it" with the best loudspeakers available.

Another reason it's often difficult to recreate the "artist in front of you" is due to acoustics. The recording room is completely different from your listening room. Believe it or not, your listening room contributes a HUGE amount of the final "sound" you hear. Your loudspeakers interact with your room, and ultimately the room "colors" the sound from reflections, muddy or boomy bass from room modes, along with peaks and nulls. Many customers today cannot install acoustic treatment in their listening rooms due to cost, WAF, or aesthetic compromises. Until you can remove the room from the equation (at least partially), even the most expensive speaker in the world will fall short because they still have to play tug-of-war with the room acoustics.

I completely understand where you're coming from. People like us who drop this kind of money on loudspeakers are usually wanting to reproduce music more accurately and more true to the source. I totally get that. I'm just saying that there's a lot more involved than speakers. :)

Now, with all of that said, my personal experience and my own hearing indicates a more forward speaker can give you a bit more of the "artist in front of you" thing. For example, when listening to my 170s or 200s in stereo, I do actually get more of the "stage front and center" feeling than with my Sierra-1s. The Sierra-1s are more laid back, relaxed, and polite in comparison (I have the non-NrT version). I wish I knew more about loudspeaker design to properly explain why one speaker sounds more forward than another and how/why that affects psychoacoustics in the brain. Nevertheless, that's just been my experience: a more forward speaker gives me a more "in the face" approach.

There's one experience I will never forget (I actually e-mailed Dave about it). Back when I had a HTM-200 SE pair in my bedroom, I was just drifting off to sleep with some soft music in the background. I had SiriusXM at the time, so no commercials. Anyway, a song by Blossom Dearie came on and jarred me back to reality. I could have sworn that Blossom Dearie was actually in my bedroom singing this. I turned on the light switch because it was so convincing. Of course, when the fog cleared in my brain, I realized she could never be in my room singing that. The 200s were just so convincing with her voice. I'm not sure if I would have had the same experience with my Sierra-1s, because they are definitely more laid-back. Who knows. ;)

To end this essay, I do recommend what Curtis said. Grab yourself a pair to try for 30 days. It's a minimal investment if you don't like them, but you can try them yourself in your own home with your own ears. One thing I like about the Sierra-1s is that they get out of the way and allow me to see deeper into the recording. More detail, more resolution, more texture, and oh, some really sweet high frequencies. Almost sugary, but not overly so. They are fantastic.

My $3.02

[noteworthy]

Thanks guys. After I wrote the 'artist in the room' comment I went back and listened to various songs at louder volumes. I determined that I was listening at volumes too low previous to that comment, which did not allow the speakers to reveal themselves, so to speak. There was so much more detail with a higher volume. I even found myself able to tolerate a tad higher volume after listening for a while.

Curtis, at times I may sit ~2 ft off-axis.

[curtis]

Curtis, at times I may sit ~2 ft off-axis.
Then I would venture to say that you have nothing to worry about with any decently designed speaker.

[noteworthy]

Would I be a good candidate for the Q-Plug B in my 11'x11'x8' room and Sierra-1 placement ~15 inches from the back wall?

[curtis]

Would I be a good candidate for the Q-Plug B in my 11'x11'x8' room and Sierra-1 placement ~15 inches from the back wall?
Every room is different...so we can't give you a definitive answer. A lot in audio is not black and white, and on top of that, we each have preferences.

I would say to order the plugs and experiment.

[tme110]

How much distance to your listening position do you need for the sierra-1 to make sense?

I'm finally thinking about upgrading from my original polk surround speakers to go with my Towers and Horizon both with RAAL. 50/50 home theater and music plus I listen to 5.1 music. I currently only have a 5.1 system. I was thinking about getting 4 170's but since I do listen to multichannel music I was thinking about a pair of sierra-1s and a pair of 170's for the surrounds. For the side channels I only have a couple feet distance to the listening position.

I also just connected my audioengine A5 speakers to try out 7.1 (they are the only other speakers I have). After several tv shows and movies, not much has had info for the 6th and 7th channel so it doesn't seem so far that it's all that important to spend much on those last 2 speakers. I don't think multichannel audio ever goes 7.1 (well I see AIX blu-rays may have it but that's all I've found so far).