New Sierra-1 owner: "non-crowdedness"...

[Clarke B.]

I'm a very happy new owner of a pair of Sierra-1s, having received them almost exactly one month ago. Brian was an excellent advisor, and my entire experience researching, purchasing, and enjoying these speakers has been just outstanding. I'm powering them with a Marantz PM-8004 integrated amplifier (another somewhat recent purchase, and something else Brian so helpfully assisted me with as I anticipated a purchase of Sierras), and my sources are a Technics 1200-MKII turntable with an Audio-Technica AT-440MLA cartridge (80%+ of my listening is vinyl), and a Marantz CD-5001 CD player. These are my first really nice speakers, and the Marantz was my first nice amplifier, and the double-whammy of those two upgrades (I upgraded the amp first, and the difference was immediate and jaw-dropping) has made me never want to leave the sweet spot.

In any case--and this is undoubtedly a fairly newbie-ish realization--one thing that's been striking to me is that these speakers never seem to sound "crowded", no matter what I play. From browsing the boards here, I think my music tastes are perhaps a bit outside the forum norm; I listen to quite a bit of metal (old and newer), hard rock, post-punk, synth-pop, industrial, etc. (And also a fair amount of 20th Century classical music and ambient/drone.) It's absolutely amazing to me how the most crowded, loud passages of metal with, say, multiple overdriven guitars playing fast and loud and a drummer going ape****--these passages would often sound absolutely muddy and indistinguishable and train-wreck-y on my old setup, but with things as they are now there is clarity and space in the music, with each part distinguishable. And no matter how high I turn the volume, I never experience that "WHOA, OUCH" sensation that used to be somewhat of a frequent occurrence.

My question is, quite simply: why and how do these speakers accomplish this? Feel free to answer as broadly or as tech-specifically/geeky as you wish. The more I listen to these, the more fascinated I am with them.

[hearing specialist]

Hello there and thanks for the props there. I'm also so glad your enjoying them. My .02 and personal opinion is the rigidity of the Sierra 1 enclosure is what fuels and starts the sonic quest. You just cannot beat that bamboo design and Dave's amazing engineering that went into the build. Crazy excellent crossover, SEAS drivers spec'd specifically for this application, and just great homework done by Ascend owner and magician. Your now experiencing what so many others discover, Sierra 1 signature sound. Other Sierra 1 owners will also share their initial experiences I hope : )

Thanks again!

Brian Handy

[Clarke B.]

Hello there and thanks for the props there. I'm also so glad your enjoying them. My .02 and personal opinion is the rigidity of the Sierra 1 enclosure is what fuels and starts the sonic quest. You just cannot beat that bamboo design and Dave's amazing engineering that went into the build. Crazy excellent crossover, SEAS drivers spec'd specifically for this application, and just great homework done by Ascend owner and magician. Your now experiencing what so many others discover, Sierra 1 signature sound. Other Sierra 1 owners will also share their initial experiences I hope : )

Thanks again!

Brian Handy

My pleasure, Brian, and thanks again. So you're saying the rigidity of the enclosure is playing a major role in fostering that sense of space between instruments and non-crowdedness, because there's less vibration happening within the speakers? That makes sense to me... Another thing I've noticed, this from playing with placement: I enjoy the way they sound the most with no toe-in. I sit about 9 feet from them, and they're 6 feet apart--not quite ideal I realize, but that's the room I've got to work with--so perhaps because I'm a little bit far-field relative to their distance from each other toe-in isn't really necessary? Does that make any sense?

[hearing specialist]

A rigid enclosure in my opinion is way necessary in exploiting all the sonic nuance's out of any high end driver. The thick baffles of the Sierra 1's which can be viewed on the Youtube tutorial of the NrT upgrade are key, the proper amount and kind of dampening and where its placed inside also is so very important. This is such a great example of proper and well thought out engineering. My opinion is that Dave was the guy in class you wanted to sit next to when doing homework ; )

I'm about 11.5 feet back to my listening position and mains are also 6' apart with no toe in. At that distance and in my room i'm still pretty much on axis and can hear zero high freq loss sitting anywhere. With any of the Ascend designs all those variables have been minimized so you will enjoy them in most any listening situation. Just remember that placement sometimes has to be where they are and at 9' back in your situation you may still be mostly on axis. The dispersion patterns of the drivers is that good. Enjoy them, enjoy them, and enjoy them some more. Now we need a couple Rythmik F15's for you...

Brian Handy

[davef]

I'm a very happy new owner of a pair of Sierra-1s, having received them almost exactly one month ago. Brian was an excellent advisor, and my entire experience researching, purchasing, and enjoying these speakers has been just outstanding. I'm powering them with a Marantz PM-8004 integrated amplifier (another somewhat recent purchase, and something else Brian so helpfully assisted me with as I anticipated a purchase of Sierras), and my sources are a Technics 1200-MKII turntable with an Audio-Technica AT-440MLA cartridge (80%+ of my listening is vinyl), and a Marantz CD-5001 CD player. These are my first really nice speakers, and the Marantz was my first nice amplifier, and the double-whammy of those two upgrades (I upgraded the amp first, and the difference was immediate and jaw-dropping) has made me never want to leave the sweet spot.

In any case--and this is undoubtedly a fairly newbie-ish realization--one thing that's been striking to me is that these speakers never seem to sound "crowded", no matter what I play. From browsing the boards here, I think my music tastes are perhaps a bit outside the forum norm; I listen to quite a bit of metal (old and newer), hard rock, post-punk, synth-pop, industrial, etc. (And also a fair amount of 20th Century classical music and ambient/drone.) It's absolutely amazing to me how the most crowded, loud passages of metal with, say, multiple overdriven guitars playing fast and loud and a drummer going ape****--these passages would often sound absolutely muddy and indistinguishable and train-wreck-y on my old setup, but with things as they are now there is clarity and space in the music, with each part distinguishable. And no matter how high I turn the volume, I never experience that "WHOA, OUCH" sensation that used to be somewhat of a frequent occurrence.

My question is, quite simply: why and how do these speakers accomplish this? Feel free to answer as broadly or as tech-specifically/geeky as you wish. The more I listen to these, the more fascinated I am with them.

Hi Clarke,

I am very pleased to hear that you are enjoying the speakers and that your purchasing experience was positive :)

So much design goes into a loudspeaker in order to reach specific performance goals. The Sierra-1 were designed with a simple premise, less is more... We wanted to produce a loudspeaker that offered less mechanical and electrical resonances, less inertia (sometimes known as overhang), less phasing issues between the drivers -- basically a speaker that just "gets out of the way" more than most. We focused less on a perfectly "flat on-axis response" in favor of time domain perfect integration between the tweeter and woofer, which when done right -- produces a more symmetrical off-axis response (what we actually hear)

To accomplish this, we chose / designed the components that matched the design philosophy -- and this included (but not nearly the only factor) the unique bamboo cabinetry...

Hope this makes sense!

[kinggimp82]

Hi Clarke,

I am very pleased to hear that you are enjoying the speakers and that your purchasing experience was positive :)

So much design goes into a loudspeaker in order to reach specific performance goals. The Sierra-1 were designed with a simple premise, less is more... We wanted to produce a loudspeaker that offered less mechanical and electrical resonances, less inertia (sometimes known as overhang), less phasing issues between the drivers -- basically a speaker that just "gets out of the way" more than most. We focused less on a perfectly "flat on-axis response" in favor of time domain perfect integration between the tweeter and woofer, which when done right -- produces a more symmetrical off-axis response (what we actually hear)

To accomplish this, we chose / designed the components that matched the design philosophy -- and this included (but not nearly the only factor) the unique bamboo cabinetry...

Hope this makes sense!

Out of curiosity how thick is the bamboo cabinet in the Sierras? Also compared to MDF how much heavier and more dense are the bamboo cabinets? The knuckle test definitely shows how solid the cabinets are. :)

[GirgleMirt]

Out of curiosity how thick is the bamboo cabinet in the Sierras? Also compared to MDF how much heavier and more dense are the bamboo cabinets? The knuckle test definitely shows how solid the cabinets are. :)
Ask and you shall receive! My pair of bamboo NRTs weigh in at 35.6 lbs, the regular Sierra-1 tweet/woofer/crossover in DIY MDF cabinets weigh in at... 35.6 lbs... Hmmm! That is a bit weird, I was expecting the bamboo to be a bit heavier! But nope, seems essentially quite similar... :)

[kinggimp82]

Ask and you shall receive! My pair of bamboo NRTs weigh in at 35.6 lbs, the regular Sierra-1 tweet/woofer/crossover in DIY MDF cabinets weigh in at... 35.6 lbs... Hmmm! That is a bit weird, I was expecting the bamboo to be a bit heavier! But nope, seems essentially quite similar... :)

Stock Sierras only weigh 20 pounds each. Is the nrt tweeter really that heavy?

[GirgleMirt]

You mean that light? Pair = 2. 35.6 / 2 = 17.8lbs, meaning the NrTs would be 2.2 lbs lighter than stock 20lbs Sierras... I had to pile the two speakers on top of one another because my scale couldn't weigh a single speaker, too light I guess... Maybe it's not the most precise at that weight because I had 35.9 and other random differing results, but overall, one does not appear to be significantly heavier than the other.

The original Sierra cabinet thread mentioned 3/4 inch bamboo baffles, which is the same I used in the MDF, with a single cross brace I think it's called. So yeah, bamboo certainly doesn't appear to be 2x as heavy or anywhere near

MDF vs Bamboo plywood, which might not be exactly what Ascend uses but gives an idea: http://www.makeitfrom.com/compare-materials/?A=Bamboo-Plywood&B=Medium-Density-Fiberboard-MDF

[Clarke B.]

Hi Clarke,

I am very pleased to hear that you are enjoying the speakers and that your purchasing experience was positive :)

So much design goes into a loudspeaker in order to reach specific performance goals. The Sierra-1 were designed with a simple premise, less is more... We wanted to produce a loudspeaker that offered less mechanical and electrical resonances, less inertia (sometimes known as overhang), less phasing issues between the drivers -- basically a speaker that just "gets out of the way" more than most. We focused less on a perfectly "flat on-axis response" in favor of time domain perfect integration between the tweeter and woofer, which when done right -- produces a more symmetrical off-axis response (what we actually hear)

To accomplish this, we chose / designed the components that matched the design philosophy -- and this included (but not nearly the only factor) the unique bamboo cabinetry...

Hope this makes sense!

Thanks very much, Dave; that makes a lot of sense. I work for a small importer of French and Italian wines, and we like our wines the same way: when the winemaker "gets out of the way" and lets the place where the grapes are grown shine through in the finished product. (Your professionalism, enthusiasm, and total involvement with all aspects of your company, which I gleaned from reading these boards and perusing the site in depth, was a huge influencing factor in me deciding to purchase Sierras over other speakers I was considering, by the way. So thanks for that, too!)

[kinggimp82]

You mean that light? Pair = 2. 35.6 / 2 = 17.8lbs, meaning the NrTs would be 2.2 lbs lighter than stock 20lbs Sierras... I had to pile the two speakers on top of one another because my scale couldn't weigh a single speaker, too light I guess... Maybe it's not the most precise at that weight because I had 35.9 and other random differing results, but overall, one does not appear to be significantly heavier than the other.

The original Sierra cabinet thread mentioned 3/4 inch bamboo baffles, which is the same I used in the MDF, with a single cross brace I think it's called. So yeah, bamboo certainly doesn't appear to be 2x as heavy or anywhere near

MDF vs Bamboo plywood, which might not be exactly what Ascend uses but gives an idea: http://www.makeitfrom.com/compare-materials/?A=Bamboo-Plywood&B=Medium-Density-Fiberboard-MDF

I misread your post and did not see that you said a pair was 35.6 pounds. The link you posted explains a lot. Even though mdf and bamboo have almost identical density and weight bamboo is a much stronger material. It is a much stiffer material for its weight and it's tensile strength is twice as high. Would not have known that without the link.

[davef]

Out of curiosity how thick is the bamboo cabinet in the Sierras? Also compared to MDF how much heavier and more dense are the bamboo cabinets? The knuckle test definitely shows how solid the cabinets are. :)

The bamboo we use in these cabinets is approximately 20mm thick. Bamboo is actually slightly lighter than MDF, but it is much stiffer / stronger and this forces mechanical resonances to be higher in frequency, making them dissipate faster and contribute less to coloring the sound. Think of it in terms of guitar strings, pluck the low "E" string and compare that to plucking the high "E" string.. Which string is stiffer, which is higher in frequency, which string comes to a full stop faster, which generates more movement and inertia?

In addition, the NrT is about 1/2 the total weight of the standard dome tweeter. This is because the standard dome uses a ferrite magnet while the NrT uses a neodymium ring magnet.

[davef]

Continuing a bit on this discussion, that link comparing bamboo to MDF is very useful. The stiffer the material, the faster the sound waves travels through it. This correlates to what I mentioned previously regarding resonance (vibration) and how "fast" decay times are compared to MDF, which was clearly obvious in various accelerometer tests I took many years ago and published somewhere on the forum. According to the information in that link, the speed of sound in bamboo is over 2x faster. In addition, Young's Modulus -- a critical factor in choosing materials, is an amazing 4.5 times higher than MDF and stiffness to weight ratio is over 10x greater -- all while having nearly identical densities (which is also important else the speaker cabinets would each weigh a ton)

Girgle, thanks so much for posting that link. It basically puts to fact and confirms every measurement I have ever taken comparing the 2 materials. The differences are quite significant.

[Dark Ranger]

This correlates to what I mentioned previously regarding resonance (vibration) and how "fast" decay times are compared to MDF, which was clearly obvious in various accelerometer tests I took many years ago and published somewhere on the forum.

Perhaps this is the post you're talking about?


Now for some cabinet measurements:

Measurements taken using an accelerometer attached to the middle of the side baffle. 7.5v bandwidth limited (2kHz) pink-filtered source signal. Speaker A is the Sierra, speaker B is a very highly regarded 2 way bookshelf speaker with 1" MDF baffles. The speakers are similar in size. Please note: Speaker B is considerably more expensive.


Impulse Response
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/ascenduploads/IMPULSE.gif
Green = Sierra, Blue = Competitor


Spectral Decay, Sierra
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/ascenduploads/SR1SIDE.gif


Spectral Decay, Competitor, 1" MDF cabinet
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/ascenduploads/COMPSIDE.gif




You are seeing not only a significant reduction in resonance but also considerably faster recovery from various resonance modes; with the end result being less cabinet effects for greater accuracy, clarity and transparency.


For those wishing to read more about the incredible bamboo cabinet for the Sierra-1, here is Dave's full post (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?2597-Sierra-The-Cabinet&p=22500#post22500).

[davef]

Thanks very much, Dave; that makes a lot of sense. I work for a small importer of French and Italian wines, and we like our wines the same way: when the winemaker "gets out of the way" and lets the place where the grapes are grown shine through in the finished product. (Your professionalism, enthusiasm, and total involvement with all aspects of your company, which I gleaned from reading these boards and perusing the site in depth, was a huge influencing factor in me deciding to purchase Sierras over other speakers I was considering, by the way. So thanks for that, too!)

Clarke,

Thank you so much for the nice comments :) It is greatly appreciated!!!!

[davef]

Perhaps this is the post you're talking about?




For those wishing to read more about the incredible bamboo cabinet for the Sierra-1, here is Dave's full post (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?2597-Sierra-The-Cabinet&p=22500#post22500).

Thanks Jacob!!! You saved me some work :o

So cool when one's own research is fully confirmed by others. I took those measurements many, many years ago and as is clearly illustrated in the spectral decay, the decay times for bamboo are about twice as fast compared to MDF while resonance amplitude is reduced by about 1/4. This almost precisely mirrors the information reported on that other site :)