Timbre Match - HTM 200SE (L&R) & Sierra Horizon Center

[MALC_345]

Hi all -

I wanted to get everyone's thoughts on possibly pairing the HTM 200SEs (L&R) with the Sierra Horizon Center (w/ HTM 200SEs for surrounds). Basically, for those who wanted to stay within a particular budget (but have room for an upgrade, when the dreaded 'upgrade-itis' will hit LOL!) and wanted the BEST center speaker, pound-for-pound, in the market could go this route and then eventually move the HTM 200SEs to surround duty for a future 7.1 setup and dare I say it....could upgrade to the Sierra Towers (or Sierra 1s). I'm trying to stay under $1500, and was considering this particular option. Of course, the timbre matching is my main concern going this route, but I feel for future upgrade purpose, this would be the best option...But I feel that since I will be using an Onkyo 809 with Audyssey MultiEqXT (and driving with the Emo XPA-3), this may alleviate that issue a bit.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[Dark Ranger]

Hi Marc,

I like your "outside-the-box" approach here. Based on your last post in the other thread, plus this post, I can see what you're getting at. It also shows how much thought you're putting into this setup. I can appreciate that.

This approach will allow you to get the very best center speaker when you need it (right now! :D), plus avoid buying "stop-gap" speakers you don't really want "Sierra-1 Center." When the time comes to upgrade your fronts, you can go right to a 7.1 and just buy what you want for the fronts.

OK, to take a stab at your question:

1) First off, you'll definitely need to run a sub when using the 200 SE as fronts. They work great with a standard 80 Hz crossover. For movies, I would definitely use 80 Hz even though they can dig a bit deeper (-3 dB is ~70 Hz).

2) I re-read a post in your other thread and you play 98% movies. I actually ran a pair of 200 SE in my bedroom (music only) for the better part of a year. I really loved these speakers. Eventually, they were moved to my HT room as surrounds and I added another pair for rears. I am completely satisfied with these little guys. I mention this because today's modern films often have a complex soundtrack of music, effects, and dialogue. The 200s handle this with aplomb considering their small size. They have wide dispersion and provide a pretty accurate representation of the material. For someone with a small room (or budget), I would not hesitate to recommend the 200s all around paired with a good subwoofer.

3) The BIG QUESTION: timbre matching.

Well, I can tell you right now that you'll notice a difference. However, all of the Ascend speakers are designed with accuracy in mind, so the differences do not come from things like boosted bass, muddy mids, or harsh highs (see what I did there? :p). In my opinion, the difference comes more from the capabilities of the speaker (air displacement, dynamics, and varying degrees of resolution based on higher quality components). The Horizon will be able to deliver a more accurate, neutral, and dynamic presentation of the material. However, one thing in the 200s favor is that they are sealed with a very good transient response (basically how fast the speaker can reproduce a sound accurately, and then come to rest). This means the 200s are fast and responsive.


How soon are you planning to buy? If you give me some time, I can reconfigure my HT for a little experiment. I will disconnect my Sierra-1 mains and put them aside. Then, I'll disconnect my rear surround HTM-200 SE pair and reconnect them up front as mains. I would then have this configuration:

L/R: HTM-200 SE
Center: Horizon
SL/SR: HTM-200 SE

I will use an 80 Hz crossover for the mains (I already have one applied for the surrounds). For the Horizon, I normally use 60 Hz for movies, so I can use that and also try 80 Hz to match the mains/surrounds.

Once that is done, I can demo several types of movies, everything from Transformers to Pride and Prejudice. This experiment would probably take me a week to do because I'm right in the middle of an IT audit along with several other projects. However, I am more than happy to try this out for you (and also for my own curiosity).

Of course, this won't be an apples for apples test because it's a different room, I have different ears, plus slight variations of components (RAAL in the Horizon, a different subwoofer, and different placement). However, I will be powering everything with Emotiva amplifiers and processors, so that part will be similar.

Even without doing the test, I would definitely consider this approach so that I could get the Horizon right away. Honestly, it made a HUGE improvement for movies and multichannel music. It's my favorite Ascend speaker. :) So, I think if I were in your shoes, I'd probably go this route for long term planning and budget reasons. Then later, you can get Sierra-1s or Towers for mains, and not have to resell anything. It does help that your preference leans so heavily towards movies. If you did music 98%, then I'd definitely recommend the Sierra-1s as mains.


Let me know if you're interested in the experiment. I just might do it anyway for my own curiosity. :D

[MALC_345]

Hi Marc,

I like your "outside-the-box" approach here. Based on your last post in the other thread, plus this post, I can see what you're getting at. It also shows how much thought you're putting into this setup. I can appreciate that.

This approach will allow you to get the very best center speaker when you need it (right now! :D), plus avoid buying "stop-gap" speakers you don't really want "Sierra-1 Center." When the time comes to upgrade your fronts, you can go right to a 7.1 and just buy what you want for the fronts.

OK, to take a stab at your question:

1) First off, you'll definitely need to run a sub when using the 200 SE as fronts. They work great with a standard 80 Hz crossover. For movies, I would definitely use 80 Hz even though they can dig a bit deeper (-3 dB is ~70 Hz).

2) I re-read a post in your other thread and you play 98% movies. I actually ran a pair of 200 SE in my bedroom (music only) for the better part of a year. I really loved these speakers. Eventually, they were moved to my HT room as surrounds and I added another pair for rears. I am completely satisfied with these little guys. I mention this because today's modern films often have a complex soundtrack of music, effects, and dialogue. The 200s handle this with aplomb considering their small size. They have wide dispersion and provide a pretty accurate representation of the material. For someone with a small room (or budget), I would not hesitate to recommend the 200s all around paired with a good subwoofer.

3) The BIG QUESTION: timbre matching.

Well, I can tell you right now that you'll notice a difference. However, all of the Ascend speakers are designed with accuracy in mind, so the differences do not come from things like boosted bass, muddy mids, or harsh highs (see what I did there? :p). In my opinion, the difference comes more from the capabilities of the speaker (air displacement, dynamics, and varying degrees of resolution based on higher quality components). The Horizon will be able to deliver a more accurate, neutral, and dynamic presentation of the material. However, one thing in the 200s favor is that they are sealed with a very good transient response (basically how fast the speaker can reproduce a sound accurately, and then come to rest). This means the 200s are fast and responsive.


How soon are you planning to buy? If you give me some time, I can reconfigure my HT for a little experiment. I will disconnect my Sierra-1 mains and put them aside. Then, I'll disconnect my rear surround HTM-200 SE pair and reconnect them up front as mains. I would then have this configuration:

L/R: HTM-200 SE
Center: Horizon
SL/SR: HTM-200 SE

I will use an 80 Hz crossover for the mains (I already have one applied for the surrounds). For the Horizon, I normally use 60 Hz for movies, so I can use that and also try 80 Hz to match the mains/surrounds.

Once that is done, I can demo several types of movies, everything from Transformers to Pride and Prejudice. This experiment would probably take me a week to do because I'm right in the middle of an IT audit along with several other projects. However, I am more than happy to try this out for you (and also for my own curiosity).

Of course, this won't be an apples for apples test because it's a different room, I have different ears, plus slight variations of components (RAAL in the Horizon, a different subwoofer, and different placement). However, I will be powering everything with Emotiva amplifiers and processors, so that part will be similar.

Even without doing the test, I would definitely consider this approach so that I could get the Horizon right away. Honestly, it made a HUGE improvement for movies and multichannel music. It's my favorite Ascend speaker. :) So, I think if I were in your shoes, I'd probably go this route for long term planning and budget reasons. Then later, you can get Sierra-1s or Towers for mains, and not have to resell anything. It does help that your preference leans so heavily towards movies. If you did music 98%, then I'd definitely recommend the Sierra-1s as mains.


Let me know if you're interested in the experiment. I just might do it anyway for my own curiosity. :D

Jacob -

If you could please do that experiment that would be AWESOME! You rock dude...:cool: I really appreciate your knowledge and feedback regarding this matter. And I'm glad I didn't sound too crazy with my suggestion. I know how awesome the Sierra 1 would be & my experience with the CMT 340SE center has been AMAZING to say the least....Its just that if I wanted to upgrade in the future, I don't want to have a center speaker that I will need to sell or have to move to 6.1 duty (I prefer a 7.1 setup :D). And plus, from my research on these forums (and most importantly, user reviews), the Sierra Horizon is pound-for-pound king. :cool:

But I do agree if my listening habit was 50-50 movies and music or even 70-30 movies and music, the Sierra 1s across the front would be a great choice.

BTW, I'm using an XPA-3 to power the fronts and my Onkyo 809 to power the HTM200 SEs (atleast I've decided on the surrounds for sure ;)), that should give me enough power to run the Horizon and HTM 200SEs in the front and lighten the load for more AVR power going to the HTM 200SEs in the back?

Any feedback regarding this experiment would be awesome...and seriously, thanks TONS for your assistance Jacob, it is greatly appreciated my friend. :cool:

[Dark Ranger]

BTW, I'm using an XPA-3 to power the fronts and my Onkyo 809 to power the HTM200 SEs (atleast I've decided on the surrounds for sure ;)), that should give me enough power to run the Horizon and HTM 200SEs in the front and lighten the load for more AVR power going to the HTM 200SEs in the back?

This combination will be great. The XPA-3 has more than adequate power to drive the Horizon + 200s, and then down the road, Horizon + Sierra-1 or Towers. This amp can deliver 200 watts into 8 ohms and 300 watts into 4 ohms with plenty of current. You'll be able to achieve reference levels at your MLP with headroom to spare. The Onkyo AVR will have no problems driving the 2 or 4 surrounds. :)

[Dark Ranger]

Hi Marc,

Just a quick note to let you know I am actually doing this. I've watched a few movies, as well as excerpts from concerts. There is more to go and I'm writing down my thoughts along the way. Let's just say the results so far have been...surprising. In a good way.

Here's a little teaser to show you I'm not bluffing about the speaker swap. ;)


A "BEFORE" photo taken this past Wednesday (sorry for poor lighting):
http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh540/darkranger762/HTM-200%20SE%20and%20Sierra%20Horizon%20LCR%20Experime nt/IMG_0370_zps4eb803a0.jpg


And an "AFTER" photo showing the setup I've had since Wednesday:
http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh540/darkranger762/HTM-200%20SE%20and%20Sierra%20Horizon%20LCR%20Experime nt/IMG_0382_zps569e206f.jpg

You'll notice my high-tech and audiophile-approved "booster seats" are actually the boxes from PC power supplies. I'm also using another layer of Auralex MoPads. This is to elevate the HTM-200 SE tweeters to the same height as the previous Sierra-1 tweeter. The tweeter is about 13.5" above the desk surface. I found splitting MoPads with the boxes in the middle provided the most stable base.

I also put two strips of Gaffer's tape on the desk around the base of the MoPads before removing the Sierra-1s. This is to mark the placement. I wanted to make sure they went back identical to how they were. Plus, it also serves as a reference for the HTMs. They are in the same position as the previous Sierra-1s.

I also experimented with having the tweeters on the inside. That's how I originally had them. While the imaging was more focused, I found it shrunk the sound stage beyond what I preferred. Moving the tweeters to the outside was perfect. If the speakers were farther apart, I could probably do a tweeter-on-the-inside arrangement with no issue.

This 5.1 setup is doing well, although I do miss the back surrounds. :)


Well, it's time for me to turn in. Guess I'll pause Diana Krall's Quiet Nights 24/96 hi-res album that's been playing through the HTM-200 SE pair (full-range, no subwoofer). :cool:

[Dark Ranger]

Hi,

Just wanted to give a quick update to this thread. I have completed my experiment and will be editing and posting the results within the next 24 hours. This was great fun. :)

[Dark Ranger]

Thoughts regarding HTM-200 SE as mains along with Sierra Horizon (RAAL) center


Short version:

I’m stunned at how well the HTM-200 SE mains integrate with the Horizon, especially considering that I’ve paired speakers that are at opposite ends of the price range. Not only do the cheapest and the most expensive speakers sound satisfactory together, they sound great!

Verdict: go for it!


Expanded version:

Wednesday Evening (1/16)

Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga’Hoole (Blu-ray):

There is a pan scene near the beginning where Noctus (Hugo Weaving) is speaking. It pans from front right to center. With my center at 60 Hz crossover and HTM at 80 Hz crossover, it was very noticeable when the dialogue shifted to the center. After this, I set the Horizon crossover to 80 Hz for the rest of the film. There were times, though, where the Horizon sounded clearer and less “stuffy,” whereas a veil was over the HTMs (by comparison).

Blends very well. Could definitely live with this.

Dido – Live at Brixton Academy (DVD):

I experimented with 60, 70, and 80 Hz crossover for the Horizon, and 70 and 80 Hz crossover for HTMs. Ultimately settled on 80 Hz all around. Music sounds great. It was surprisingly seamless with the HTMs up front.

Diana Krall – Live in Rio (DVD):

Very good, similar feedback as Dido performance.

Celtic Woman (Various DVD performances):

No major qualms. If anything, the highs on the HTMs are more “in your face” compared to the RAAL’s relaxed performance. The HTM highs were a bit more “grainy” compared to the exceptionally smooth RAAL. Perhaps I might say that the HTM’s mid and high performance is more “forward” than the Horizon.

So far, the differences between these two speakers are more apparent with music than with movies. However, I have a feeling the NrT Horizon might actually blend better with the HTMs than my RAAL Horizon. The NrT tweeter can offer more “bite” and be more “aggressive” and forward in the highs since the tweeter design has higher stored energy and longer delay times than the RAAL.


Friday Evening (1/18)

Transformers (Blu-ray):

I used this film as a tough soundtrack of special effects, music, and dialogue. Amazingly, I kept forgetting to listen critically because I just got lost in the film. This is, to me, a great way of realizing how well the HTM-200 SE blended with the Horizon. If there were problems, I would have noticed them. As it turns out, the Blu-ray playback displayed visual anomalies throughout the entire film (squarish blocks of noise that changed every second). I noticed these immediately when the film started. Video issues aside, the 5.1 Dolby TrueHD audio soundtrack was flawless and I had absolutely no complaints. For reference, the entire front stage (LCR) was set to 80 Hz crossover.

I was really impressed at how well the 200s held their own with a very demanding film. Music, dialogue, and special effects were spectacular. As I mentioned previously, the Ascends pulled me into the film so much so that I kept forgetting to listen critically. This is the ultimate achievement. I have more films to try, but I remain completely amazed at how well the 200 SE integrate as mains with the RAAL-equipped Horizon.
So far, my impression is that there are more noticeable differences with multichannel music (e.g. concerts) than with movies. I do prefer my Sierra-1s as mains for concerts and music, but for movies, I could honestly live with the 200s as mains with no complaints.

I have also been doing a lot of regular 2.0 and 2.1 music with the HTM-200 SE as mains. I just want to say what a pleasure it is to hear these little guys with two channel music again. They are being driven by an Emotiva XPA-200, and I really do love these speakers. Paired with my Rythmik sub, music is just wonderful and belies the asking price for these little monitors. I had an unexpected experience tonight listening to a few favorite songs from Celtic Woman, including “Amazing Grace” and “The Voice.” Listening to these two tracks on the 200 SE with my Rythmik F15SE taking care of <80 Hz literally gave me chills and goosebumps. I felt more alive tonight than I have in weeks. I deal with some debilitating health issues and sometimes it’s easy to sink into despair. I use music and movies as a way of escaping reality for a little while. Dave’s speakers have helped me keep my sanity through the difficult days. And sometimes I experience a moment of sonic nirvana like I did tonight. It’s a real morale booster. :D


Saturday Evening (1/19)

The Dark Knight (DVD):

I watched this film at low volumes late Saturday evening, so I won’t use this for critical evaluation. However, I did not notice any particular problems and the 200s were surprisingly dynamic at lower volumes. This is a tough film with lots of action and low frequency content.


Sunday Evening (1/20)

Pride & Prejudice (DVD):

While not considered a reference film, I like to use this for two reasons: the fantastic classical score played by the English Chamber Orchestra, and “naturalness” of the dialogue-heavy content throughout the film. Overall, the 200s did a remarkable job reproducing the wonderful score throughout the film. The center channel held most of the dialogue as expected, but there are several times throughout the film where human voices fill the mains as well. For example, the ballroom dancing scenes and various party gatherings. I have no doubt the Sierra-1s would have delivered a more detailed reproduction of the chamber music sections, but the 200s were surprisingly adept.


Monday Evening (1/21)

Serenity (DVD):

As one of my favorite sci-fi films, this was a treat to watch again and it pulled me back into the Firefly Universe with earnest. Special effects, dialogue, and music were rendered very well. My experience here mirrors other films. However, I nearly jumped at one point during the film due to a sound being reproduced so convincingly. After Serenity had crashed following the EMP hit, the crew exits the ship and trots down a hallway. There are sounds all-around of destruction and electrical arcing. At one point, the front right HTM-200 SE reproduced the electrical sparking so convincingly that I thought it was real! I actually backed up the disc to replay that section to ensure it was part of the movie. :)

I also watched some other films. Suffice to say I am very pleased with the HTM-200 SE performance as mains when paired with a competent subwoofer.

My 200s are now back in rear surround duty and it was with some sadness involved. I know they are capable of so much more than just being a surround speaker, but they did have a chance to shine in the spotlight. :D


Thanks for reading.

[jahjd2000]

Great review, Jacob. It sounds like the 200's are a great performer and that they pair well with the Horizon.

I got to hear the 200's at the Ascend facility. They were on surround duty but I thought they blended really nicely with the towers and Horizon. There were a couple of scenes where the vocals went from back to front and I didn't notice any timbre issues at all.

[Dark Ranger]

Thanks! I had a great time doing this little experiment for MALC_345 and for my own curiosity. :)

I'm happy to hear Ascend had some 200s set up. They are seriously amazing and a real bargain at the current price. I know the 170s have been/are used at Ascend for surrounds, too. Perhaps they were switched out for a customer-requested listening session.

[MALC_345]

Thanks! I had a great time doing this little experiment for MALC_345 and for my own curiosity. :)

I'm happy to hear Ascend had some 200s set up. They are seriously amazing and a real bargain at the current price. I know the 170s have been/are used at Ascend for surrounds, too. Perhaps they were switched out for a customer-requested listening session.

Jacob -

This is great stuff. Thanks for taking the time to do this review and the observations are greatly appreciated. I will let you know what route I chose with pics. Still finishing up constructing our HT room, but EXTREMELY stoked to get it up and running. Again, really appreciate forum members like you that take the time to help us 'newbies' make an educated decision that will offer audio bliss! Cheers!

[curtis]

I'm happy to hear Ascend had some 200s set up. They are seriously amazing and a real bargain at the current price.
Some will say they are too much of a bargain. It has the same (custom Seas) tweeter as in the CBM-170SE, two 4" woofers as opposed to the 6.5" in the 170SE, and has almost the same bass extension as the original 170....which I think last sold for $329/pr. So for $298...they definitely are a bargain.