HT Suggestion (Sierra Horizon & Sierra 1s -vs- CMT 340SE Center & Mains).

[MALC_345]

Hi All -

I was hoping to get expert advice in regards to an HT setup that I am building in our new home. :D I set up an HT before for my parents (CMT340SE Center & Mains along with HTM200 SE Surrounds). I was AMAZED at the soundstage and how immersing these speakers were (at this price point) paired with an Emotiva XPA-3.

This brings me to my dilemma. :D (A good dilemma actually, but a hard choice to make). I was considering these options:


Option 1: Sierra Horizon Center & Sierra 1 (LR) with HTM200 SEs
(or)
Option 2: Sierra 1 LCR (non-NRTs) with HTM200 SEs
(or)
Option 3: CMT340SE Center & Mains with HTM200 SEs

My only concern with option 1 is the timbre matching of the Sierra Horizon Center with the Sierra 1 (LR, non-NRTs). I would be pushing my budget to get this particular options, but since I'm 98% Movies - 2% BluRay concerts, I want (& need) the best Center Speaker possible. Any Ascend users out there with this particular front soundstage? :D

And for option 2 with the Sierra 1 LCR (non-NRTs), would they be a noticeable step up from the CMT340SE front soundstage? I'm torn on whether to go with what I already know (my parent's CMT340 SE setup) or 'upgrade' to the Sierra-1 (non NRTs) front soundstage? My concern is the Sierra 1 center with the off-set tweeter. But of course, I'm not in any way technically-versed in the physics behind the placement of this tweeter, but I have read only awesome stuff.

I would greatly appreciate any info my friends....Cheers!

[Dark Ranger]

Hi MALC,

I completely understand the desire for the very best Center speaker one can afford. My current HT setup consists of the following:

L/R: Sierra-1 (non-NRT)
Center: Horizon (RAAL)
Side/Back Surround: HTM-200 SE

The purists would argue that the front stage is not completely seamless and timbre-matched. Well, I agree in theory, but from practical experience, this combination blends remarkably well in my opinion. It is a testament to Ascend's mission of providing accurate, well-balanced speakers. If these speakers were less accurate and had noticeable sonic signatures (e.g. overly-warm, harsh, bright, honky mid-range, etc.), then it could be more of an issue.

Let me just say that the Horizon is the BEST center channel I have ever owned. While I love my non-NrT Sierra-1s, the Horizon offers more dynamics, incredibly life-like dialog, and an extremely well-balanced and natural timbre (among many other things). I originally planned to buy a Sierra-1 center to match my mains. I cannot fit the full Towers in my listening room, so I opted for the bookshelves. However, when I heard that Dave was working on a center channel version of the full towers, it took about 0.2 seconds for me to decide I wanted it. :D So I bought one in April 2012 and it's been absolutely perfect for my expectations.

The Horizon is noticeably larger than the Sierra-1s, so keep that in mind. Make sure you can fit it, mount it, or stand it in your space. For visual reference, here's an older pic I took last year showing my front stage. You can see the size difference. This is the original (non-custom) Horizon:


http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh540/darkranger762/HT/IMG_4.jpg


The Sierra-1 placement has changed slightly since the pic. They are not as toed-in now and are nearly parallel with the side edge. Probably toed-in about 4-6 degrees. I found the sound stage became larger with the change while the previous extreme toe-in (for near-field listening) offered more focused imaging. The less toe-in placement also blends better with the Horizon regarding overall sound stage.

So, my honest recommendation would be to go with Option #1 if you can accommodate and afford the Horizon. Otherwise, #2 is the next best thing.

I haven't heard the 340 SEs, but I do have a pair of 170 SE in my bedroom. The Sierra-1 is a very noticeable step up in resolution, detail, and dynamics. It sounds like a higher quality speaker to me. That's not to say I don't love the 170s. I do. I'm just saying there is a very noticeable difference for me. :)

One thing to note: the 340s will play a bit louder than the Sierra-1s using the same amount of amplifier power because the 340s are more efficient. So with the Sierra-1s, you'll have to turn it up a bit more, but it's nothing to worry about. For my listening preferences, the Sierra's added resolution and detail are appreciated for movies just as much as for music. I love this setup.

Remember that Ascend has a 30-day in-home trial period. You can try out the Sierra-1s and see if they're as good (or better) than your beloved 340s at the parent's house. That would allow you make a decision you won't have to regret. If for some reason they don't appeal to you, just send 'em back for a refund. You'll be out shipping charges, but that's an acceptable risk in my opinion.

The horizontal tweeter in the Sierra-1 center shouldn't be an issue. Dave wouldn't sell it if it was. From what I've gathered, it's more of a visual inconsistency for most folks rather than a performance issue. Ascend includes a full-length grill to help with aesthetics. I honestly don't think it'll be a problem, and like I said, I was going to buy one until I heard about the top-of-the-line Horizon.

Regarding timbre-matching: Dave has announced a ribbon tweeter upgrade for the Sierra-1. This is supposed to improve the critical mid- and high-frequency reproduction even further than the stock or NrT tweeters. This optional upgrade will move the Sierra-1 closer to the Sierra RAAL Towers regarding mid/high performance. I plan to purchase this upgrade and believe it will improve the timbre-matching of my front stage even more. Food for thought. :)

[Dark Ranger]

I'll add one more option to consider:

If timbre-matching is extremely important to you, perhaps considering matching the tweeters on the Sierra-1 and Horizon. Opt for the NrT Horizon and NrT Sierra-1. There will still be a slight difference since the Horizon has a dedicated mid-range driver, but it should be very close for the critical mids and highs. Mids and highs are where I notice a mismatch more than the lower frequencies.

The NrT upgrade for the Sierra-1s will run you a few extra coins, but it would help match even better to the NrT Horizon. Otherwise, consider the RAAL upgrade for the Horizon and the ribbon upgrade for the Sierra-1s later (just get the stock Sierra-1s for now).

Hope that helps.

[MALC_345]

@Jacob -

Thanks for all the information. It is greatly appreciated. And the fact that your a Horizon & Sierra-1 frontstage owner really helps me out with the details you provided. I'm really leaning towards the Sierra Horizon at the moment, since my need is mainly for HT (so dialogue presentation, accuracy, etc) are extremely important to me. And also the fact that the Horizon is front ported makes it not as finicky with placement, if I'm not mistaken). I'm close to pulling the trigger and just purchasing an Elite Fixed Frame PJ screen, rather than a Carada Fixed Frame PJ screen so i can use the difference in price towards the Horizon. :) I feel that in the long run it saves me from that feeling of 'what if' and helps me avoid 'upgrade-itis'...And I feel that if eventually I have the budget to get the Sierra Towers, then I can move the Sierra 1s to surround duty and move the HTM200 SEs to back surrounds (or heights) for a 7.1 setup.

But then again, the Sierra-1 (LCR) front soundstage also intrigues me simple because they are perfectly timbre matched.

Choices, choices, choices....

I plan to also purchase an SVS PB12-Plus & either an Emotiva (XPA-3 or XPA-5). I already have the Epson 8350 (great budget-friendly PJ)! And the AVR that I have decided on is the Marantz 5007.

So with your Sierra Horizon, how is the dialogue? What are you driving your speakers with, separates?

My Sierra 1s (L&R) can be placed out from the back wall about 17inches from the side wall about 14 inches. My only concern would be boominess since these are back-ported.

Really appreciate your feedback Jacob. Great information and getting me closer to pulling the trigger on the Sierra Horizon with the Sierra-1s. :)

- Marc

* If any other fellow Ascend owners would like to chime in as well, that would be awesome. :)

[Blutarsky]

The Q-Plug options can help with closer wall placement. I found good sound with the B Plugs 12" from the rear wall.

B.

[hearing specialist]

My vote is for the best center you can get. It is amazing how much is directed to and thru the center and if you ever wonder just how much, just unplug the front left and rights. The majority is crazy shocking and a capable center is so needed and required for true cinema viewing. For example, the newest flavor of Dolby TrueHD has a huge amount of center info and is crazy wide band. Dolby is already talking 5k and now 8k which will make our bluerays popping non-capable designs in heart beats.

[Dark Ranger]

So with your Sierra Horizon, how is the dialogue? What are you driving your speakers with, separates?

Dialogue has never been more articulate and natural sounding than with my Horizon. With my previous center speaker, I would run the center channel about 3-4 dB hot because it was more difficult to discern voice and speech. With the Horizon (RAAL), dialogue is easily discernible even at low volumes. Sometimes I watch movies at low volumes late at night and dialogue is never a problem. The dedicated mid-range driver coupled with the RAAL delivers exceptional clarity and balance.

You also asked what I'm driving my Ascends with. Well, I made the jump to separates last year. Coming from my 6+ year old Denon AVR, the change was completely night and day. I'm using an all-Emotiva setup for both my HT and my bedroom system. The main HT has a dedicated pre/pro (UMC-1), 2-channel amp (XPA-200), and 5-channel amp (UPA-500). The Horizon and 4 HTM-200 SE surrounds are powered on the 5-channel amp at the moment. Sometime this year I will move the Horizon to its own dedicated mono-block for several reasons.

The XPA-3 or XPA-5 you're considering will be great. I can get away with a smaller amp because my room is well under 1,100 cu. ft. in size and I'm not one who needs 120+ dB peaks. :) An AVR will treat the Ascends great, but I do recommend an external amplifier if you can manage it.


My Sierra 1s (L&R) can be placed out from the back wall about 17inches from the side wall about 14 inches. My only concern would be boominess since these are back-ported.

My Sierra-1s have about 13.5 inches behind them and greater than 3 feet on each side. I opted for Ascend's Q-Plug B which helped clean up some "room boom." Try the Sierras without the Q-Plugs, but definitely try them with the B type plugs. With these B plugs, the bass is not as punchy, but it goes a bit deeper, plus it reduced the effects of small room modes for me. I definitely prefer the B plug to no plug. You can read more about the Q-Plugs here (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?3781-Announcement-A-Sierra-1-add-on-enhancement!).


Really appreciate your feedback Jacob. Great information and getting me closer to pulling the trigger on the Sierra Horizon with the Sierra-1s. :)

No problem, Marc. I'm happy to share my experiences with the hope that others can benefit from it.

[MALC_345]

@Jacob -

I really do appreciate your feedback. I keep going back and forth to the Checkout Page, so am VERY close to pulling the trigger on my order. The only issue that keeps bothering me is the possible placement issue for the Sierra 1's Left & Right Speakers. They will be 12 inches out from the back wall & 10 inches from the side wall (Please view my pics below):

Pic of Left side of Wall (Actually, we are having our contractor put up a wall (sheetrock, stud joints, etc) over the windows on the back wall where my 'make-shift' PJ screen is located now. :D):

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8370/8380793819_15edcdfb30.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/90809995@N05/8380793819/)


Pic of Right Side of Wall:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8376/8381878640_e12b9f2c7c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/90809995@N05/8381878640/)


Pic of HT Room:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8511/8380791645_0188e13831.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/90809995@N05/8380791645/)


The dimensions of the room are length: 11.4ft & width: 9.3ft (& cathedral ceiling).

Because of the fact that the Sierra 1s are back ported (and I'm pretty much 99% sure I'm getting the Sierra Horizon Center :D), would there placement close to the wall (and even for the Sierra 1 on the right side of the wall being close to brick), is it going to cause major issues?

*I have even considered the HTM200 SEs (but worry about timbre matching with the Sierra Horizon Center), since I could put it right up against the wall.

Also, what finish is your Sierra 1s & Sierra Horizon Center? I gotta say, your front soundstage looks awesome (and am sure it sounds AWESOME as well)....

[MALC_345]

@Jacob -

Also :D...Would the CMT 340SEs work in this room as well even though it is back-ported? Would I need to use the Q-plugs (is that even possible)?

[Dark Ranger]

The pics do help with visualizing your setup. Thanks.

I honestly think you'll be OK with the Q-Plug B in your Sierra-1s. It will help by reducing the emphasized bass from a small room and close wall placement. Regardless of which L/R speaker you choose, you may want to consider some basic room treatment (e.g. GIK Acoustics, RealTraps, etc.). For example, the primary reflection points on the left and right walls could be treated, as well as directly behind the listening position. Add to that some bass traps in the four corners to smooth out the dips and peaks. The floor rug already helps with some absorption. The cathedral ceiling is another matter.

For reference, my room is similar to yours in overall size (actually a bit smaller): 12.5 ft. wide x 10 ft. long x 8.25 ft. average height = 1,031.25 cu. ft. Small rooms like ours have inherent acoustic problems that even proper loudspeaker placement cannot fully cure.

Since you're getting HTM-200 SE speakers anyway, you could try both the 200s and the Sierra-1s as mains to see which you prefer. :)


Also, what finish is your Sierra 1s & Sierra Horizon Center? I gotta say, your front soundstage looks awesome (and am sure it sounds AWESOME as well)....

Sierra-1: Piano Black
Horizon: High Gloss Black

Before I bought my Horizon, I inquired about the cost of a true piano black finish to match my Sierra-1s. That was nearly a year ago, but let's just say it was cost prohibitive for me. I could not justify $600-$900 for a cosmetic enhancement, plus I was already footing the extra for the RAAL tweeter. I went with the High Gloss Black instead. Honestly, it's not that big of a deal for me. Yes, the speakers don't perfectly match if one inspects it, but from a distance it's not huge. Plus, when the lights are down, nobody sees it anyway, especially since most of my time is spent looking at the grills rather than the sides or top. :)

Here's a comparison post (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?3926-Ascend-Owners-Photo-Gallery&p=40847#post40847) I did a while back showing the difference between my Rythmik subwoofer and Horizon. The Sierra-1 piano gloss finish is close to the Rythmik panio gloss finish. In fact, I think the Sierra-1's finish is slightly more mirror-like, therefore the difference is slightly more than what you see in these photos. So, this will be an approximate comparison between my Sierra-1 piano gloss finish and my Horizon in High Gloss Black. Again, I actually do forget about the finish mismatch since the sonic performance is so much more important to me.

Ascend also has a new finish option called Satin Black Bamboo. If I was buying a new Horizon right now, this is the finish I'd go for since a cheaper piano black finish is not yet available for the Horizon.

Here are some (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?5061-Tower-Speaker-Feet-Question&p=40885#post40885) pics (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRT/srtgal.html) of the Satin Black Bamboo finish on the Towers. It's available for the Horizon too for an extra $50.

[Dark Ranger]

@Jacob -

Also :D...Would the CMT 340SEs work in this room as well even though it is back-ported? Would I need to use the Q-plugs (is that even possible)?

Marc,

I'll let you know up front that I have not heard the 340 SEs myself yet. However, I do own a pair of 170 SE for my bedroom system. I love the 170s, but I definitely prefer the Sierra-1s for their added detail, resolution, dynamics, and their ability to let you "see" into the music even more.

The 340s actually don't support the same Q-Plugs as the Sierras. So while the 340s don't go quite as low as the Sierra-1s, there's no way to "tune" the bass response with Q-Plugs. :)


EDIT: I'll address the elephant in the room for me. Do you plan to use a subwoofer with this system? If so, the concern with the Sierra's rear porting might be a non-issue if you're using a high enough crossover (80 Hz for example).

The Q-Plug B really did help with the "boom" due to the small listening space. I run the Sierras full-range for most music and absolutely love 'em. :)

EDIT 2: If it's at all feasible, I'd suggest borrowing the 340s from your folks so that you can evaluate them in your listening space. You can try the Sierra-1s, the 340s, and the 200s as mains to determine which you like best.

[MALC_345]

@Jacob -

Again, your info is extremely helpful, especially in regards to the use of a subwoofer. :D I have narrowed down my choices between the HSU VTF15H (which I set up in my parents' home) or the SVS PB12-Plus. I think I'm leaning more towards the HSU based on cost-to-performance ratio (and I could see myself possibly getting another VTF15H in the future so that I could have a dual sub setup, but that is way down the line for me. lol!) I plan on crossing the Sierra 1s at the lowest, 60Hz, but to compensate for positioning, I may cross them over at 80Hz (with the Q-plugs).

And after speaking to the wife (since we just bought a new home & had our 2nd baby, a healthy baby boy :D), she has 'suggested' I limit my budget for now. So I'm leaning towards the Sierra 1s across the front (and in the future, could upgrade to the Sierra Horizon). I'm pretty confident that the Sierra 1 Center will outperform the CMT-340SE and I was astounded by how good it was in my parent's home, so I'm hoping that the Sierra 1 Center will be a step-up....

I appreciate your suggestion with acoustic treatments. I will definitely be addressing the brick wall, but have to make sure it has WAF. :D I'm fortunate that there are no echoes in the room and will be putting a heavier rug in the room as well (or may keep the oriental rug in the pic).

At the moment, I'm leaning towards the Sierra 1s across the front soundstage to keep within budget now...And have to work towards the Sierra Horizon. :D

Thanks for the assistance Jacob (I gotta stop looking at your pics of the Sierra Horizon so I can avoid having symptoms of 'upgrade-itis'..lol!

[Dark Ranger]

Marc,

I tend to agree with your choice between those two subwoofers. The Hsu subs offer great performance with a high value ratio. For many years, Dave F. actually offered Hsu subwoofers for customers on the Ascend website. Ascend was Hsu's largest US reseller and Dave still recommends them highly. Some time ago, Dr. Hsu decided to focus on direct sales via his own website (no resellers) to battle shrinking margins, which is why Ascend no longer offers these great subs on the website.

Oh, congratulations on your second child. You definitely have your hands full and I think saving up for the Horizon is a wise decision. The Sierra-1 Center will do a fine job. :)

[MALC_345]

Marc,

I tend to agree with your choice between those two subwoofers. The Hsu subs offer great performance with a high value ratio. For many years, Dave F. actually offered Hsu subwoofers for customers on the Ascend website. Ascend was Hsu's largest US reseller and Dave still recommends them highly. Some time ago, Dr. Hsu decided to focus on direct sales via his own website (no resellers) to battle shrinking margins, which is why Ascend no longer offers these great subs on the website.

Oh, congratulations on your second child. You definitely have your hands full and I think saving up for the Horizon is a wise decision. The Sierra-1 Center will do a fine job. :)

@Jacob -

I have a thinking 'outside-of-the-box' type setup....If I was considering a 7.1 setup in the future, what if I got 2 HTM200 SEs as the (L&R) & then the Sierra Horizon Center for my front soundstage (and the 2 HTM200 SEs as surrounds). I wonder if the timbre matching would be off between the HTM 200 SEs and the Sierra Horizon. This would also keep me within a budget and look towards the future to move the HTM 200SEs in the front stage to back surrounds and possibly Sierra 1s as the L&R or dare I say it....the Sierra Towers :cool: