compact subwoofer to go with classic 170s

[nwilcox]

I have had a pair of classic cbm-170s forever. They've pleased me greatly. Now I would like to add a compact subwoofer that would complement them, musically.

I am a 100% music guy. When I read things like "thumping, heart-pounding bass" in a maker's propaganda, it does nothing for me. I am not interested in feeling explosions in action movies. I want something to make the cbm-170s even better for most music. I seldom listen at high volume. The room is around 3300 cubic feet.

Money is flexible.

My main constraint is size. When Epik describes its Legend as "smaller" and the thing is 18 H x 15 W x 20 D, I have to turn the page. The Rythmik F12, at 15.75" x 15.75" x 17" (18-1/2" D with grille), is also a non-starter. SWMBO will not have any big box sitting in the room. It is just possible that I could talk her into something long and low, like the Phil Jones PSW-1, which is 6 x 44 x 14, but maybe not... nor do I know whether it is right for my purposes.

Do any of the truly compact subwoofers have a good reputation for musicality, and of them, which would complement my old 170s most gracefully? Can I get decent bass for music under a cubic foot?

Thanks to you all for considering this. I know this is an odd request and I will attend carefully to your suggestions.

[curtis]

If you don't want a box in your room...especially if the F12 is too big, for the cost, I would consider upgrading to a pair of B stock Sierra-1's, and not worry about a subwoofer for now.

If the old "classic" CBM-170 brought musical goodness to your ears, then you will be ecstatic with the Sierra-1....and they look a lot nicer too.

[nwilcox]

Curtis, thanks for that suggestion, one I hadn't considered.

My current stereo receiver is a Yamaha R-S300, which has but 50 watts per channel. That's double the recommended minimum for the 170, but it barely exceeds the recommended 45 watt minimum for the Sierra 1. Is that an issue? If I owned Sierra 1, how many watts per Sierra 1 would be comfortable (as opposed to minimal, if that matters)?

Thanks again.

[curtis]

I think 50 would be fine. How loud do you like to listen to your music?

[nwilcox]

Curtis, thanks. Verbally describing how loud I listen to music may be the equivalent of saying that "These go to eleven."

Seriously though, not very loud. I haven't had a complaint from my neighbors in about 25 years. Does that help?

[curtis]

Curtis, thanks. Verbally describing how loud I listen to music may be the equivalent of saying that "These go to eleven."

Seriously though, not very loud. I haven't had a complaint from my neighbors in about 25 years. Does that help?
LOL!!

Can you have a conversation with someone sitting next you without yelling during "spirited" listening levels?

[nwilcox]

That happens once every two or three years, generally late at night, and in all honesty neither I nor my remaining guests would notice a little distortion and clipping under those circumstances.

[curtis]

Then I say go for the Sierra-1's or NrT's.

[sourbeef]

Have you considered the SVS SB-12plus....there might even be an SB-13 in the works. Anyhow, this is a sealed subwoofer which has gotten great reviews over the last few years. I even bought one myself about 5 years ago.

Dimensions are roughly 14"X14"x14"

Looks like the original SB-12plus that I have is no longer being sold, but this one is quite similar:
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb12-nsd#.UMa6DY5waQI

[nwilcox]

SauerBraten, thanks for the suggestion. (Does SourBeef stand for 'Sealed Box' or is that just a coincidence?) The SVS SB12-NSD is mentioned on these threads and elsewhere a good deal. It is still a bit bigger than SWMBO will meet with good cheer, but a noticeable improvement.

Broadening the conversation a bit, I noticed this review of the Sierra 1 at audioreview.com:

http://reviews.audioreview.com/ascend-acoustics-sierra-1-bookshelf-speaker-review

This review suggests several things. First, this reviewer thinks that the Sierras need a higher-powered amplifier than I have, dissing his 40 watt tube amps in favor of his 100 watt solid state amps. I recognize that this may be a matter of taste, in deference to Curtis' previous comments.

Second, the reviewer at Audioreview.com seems to suggest that the Sierras really come into their own at higher volume. It isn't crystal clear he/she is meaning to say that, but it sure sounds like it from time to time. That's grand, but probably the great majority of my own listening will be at lower volumes. The early morning party is, at this life stage, rare for me.

In general, I rarely see this volume issue discussed in most reviews. When it is discussed, it seems a matter of whether your backing equipment and speakers allow you to get UP TO volume X (e.g. ear-bleeding, car-wrecking, dinosaur-stomping). Not, I notice, whether your speakers and backing equipment deliver a satisfyingly full musical experience DOWN TO volume Y (e.g. 50-something-codger-with-whiskey-in-hand-and-SWMBO-asleep).

I could bump my amp up to 75 or 100 watts per channel. But is that really the right thing for my life stage? If the Sierra 1 really wants to be relatively loud to come into its own, should I really be considering it? For that matter, is adding a subwoofer to my higher sensitivity cbm-170s a good idea at all if the whole ensemble will generally be played at lower volumes?

Confused as usual, but used to it by now. Certainty is for those who cannot tolerate ambiguity.

[curtis]

I owned (still own...they are in the garage) the classic CBM-170. I usually don't listen at loud levels, and my habits haven't changed.

Give the Sierra-1's a 30 day try.

[kinggimp82]

I think that 50 watts should be more than enough to power the Sierras. Especially since you don't listen all that loud. I think the Sierras sound great at any volume.

[Alleric]

Big wattage numbers only really get you that last few db's of sound when you have it cranked. Most of the time you're going to be pushing < 10-15 watts under reasonable listening. Say that you were parked at 12 watts... you'd still have enough power for 6db of transients before you'd have issues (12 watts for the next 3 db, 24 watts for the next).

And look at it this way... if not... a bigger 2 channel receiver may not be that painful of a purchase either.

Anyway, I too support the idea of getting some Sierra's and running sans-subwoofer. Unless you listen to a lot of stuff that goes down into the cavernous depths of bassdom (say 35hz and down), you'll be set.

[nwilcox]

After allowing for a few days of responses, and seeing pretty much the same advice from everyone, I'm going with that advice. I've ordered a pair of the Sierra 1s.

That said, I AM still curious about compact subwoofers. If anyone has had a good experience with any of them, I would like to know about it.

Thanks to all of you for your commentary, advice and explanations.

[kinggimp82]

What about something like these for a sub? Not sure if he would consider that size compact or not. How is your room layout? Is there any way you can put the sub next to or behind your couch? The hsu stf-2 is one of the the smaller subs they make that would still work well in your size room. I have personally owned one in the past and I thought it was pretty musical. The stf-1 would probably also work but would most likely need to be placed near your listening position.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-1.html

[sourbeef]

What about something like these for a sub? Not sure if he would consider that size compact or not. How is your room layout? Is there any way you can put the sub next to or behind your couch? The hsu stf-2 is one of the the smaller subs they make that would still work well in your size room. I have personally owned one in the past and I thought it was pretty musical. The stf-1 would probably also work but would most likely need to be placed near your listening position.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-1.html

these are basically bigger than the SVS sub I mentioned. I really think he should reconsider the SVS, for size and for performance.

[nwilcox]

If SWMBO had her way, all speakers would be placed in the attic, or perhaps outside the house--on a tree, say. In her mind, sound should be heard and not seen. This is a difficult constraint.

I have seen several articles suggesting that a pair of compact subs can work extrememly well provided you don't care about the low frequencies we feel more than hear, like explosions etc. Some bass players prefer a setup with many smallish speakers powered by extremely powerful amps, because they think definition and clarity are their main goal. This is the way Phil Jones approaches things.

Here is an article praising a pair of Rel T-7s that each barely crack the cubic foot constraint:

http://hometheaterreview.com/rel-acoustics-ltd-t-7-subwoofer-reviewed/

A pair of T-7s would cost $2000 and they aren't THAT compact.

At half that price, I could own a pair of GoldenEar Forcefield T3s. These are about the same cubic inches but lower and narrower (about 11.5 each way) but their depth is about 15". They get some pretty low frequency response (down to 18 hz). These are "Phil Jones School" subs--smallish (8") driver with loads of watts (1000).

In terms of appeal to SWMBO, a pair of the Episode CUB8s would be ideal, since they are truly compact (10.5"H x 9.8"W x 9.8"D) and well below the cubic foot benchmark. But they only really get down to 35 hz and it isn't clear to me that this supplements the Sierra in any substantial way.

Velodyne has several interesting compact subwoofers, as does Sunfire, all well under the cubic foot threshold. Again I can think about these in terms of a pair. As I read more and listen to folks here, it seems that you pretty much have to think about a pair if you want credible compact subwoofing.

Velodyne has an "optimum" series that comes with either 8, 10 or 12 inch drivers and includes auto-eq by way of microphones placed at the listening point. Any of you or your acquaintances or favorite reviews have anything good, bad or ugly to say about those?

Note to kinggimp and sourbeef, thanks for actual recommendations of subwoofers, and I am not ignoring those, just pressing for thoughts on other possibilities too.

[xdieget]

I remember someone had mentioned awhile back using a Pinnacle Baby Boomer sub with a pair of CBM-170's and was quite pleased with it. I ended up finding one used for my parents, and was also impressed with the amount of clean, powerful bass it put out for such a small size. It has dual 8" inch woofers in a sealed 10" inch cabinet. It retails for about $1k.

[nwilcox]

I had just been reading about the Pinnacle Baby Boomer, led to it by a couple of posts on another one of these threads. Thanks for the confirmation, xdieget.

[nwilcox]

I drove down to Stately Fabrikant Manor today and picked up my new Sierra 1 NrT pair in piano black. Dina "the ant" (because she can lift things ten times her size) was pleasant and wouldn't even let me put the box in my car.

I must say that the piano blacks pass the looks test with SWMBO, in case anyone else is worrying about that.

I will post later on my impressions of the sound and perhaps ask for advice if things aren't going as expected. Thanks again to all for previous advice.

[sonicboom]

Hi nwilcox,

How about NHT's 8-inch Super-8 sub? It's only $349 apiece. BTW, how are your new Sierra-1s?

[Mag_Neato]

Another compact sub option getting good reviews is the Outlaw M8 powered sub for $249.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/m8.html

[noteworthy]

SVS recently came out with the compact, sealed SB-1000. (http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb-1000) It measures 13"x13"x13". I'm considering it for my new CBM-170 SEs. If money wasn't as much of an issue for me I would have gone with the Sierra 1s as well.

There's a SVS SB-1000 & PB-1000 thread on AVS. (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1439755/new-svs-sb1000-pb1000-subwoofers)