Upgrading LCR, considering Sierra Towers among others, tweeter options, thoughts?

[OUGrad05]

I'm hoping to upgrade my two mains and my center channel early next year. We're building a new house and it should be completed late December.

After attending RMAF there were two speakers that really stood out that would also fall within my price range. The first is the Salk Supercharged Songtowers and the next was the PSB Imagine T2. The SCST's have the ribbon tweeter and upgraded midbass/bass drivers over the regular SCST. The imagine T2's have a dome tweeter and dedicated midrange driver and three bass drivers crossed over at different points. I believe one is 200-500hz and two of them play below 200hz.

After reading on AVS, getting a couple PM's and having Brian at Ascend contact me I'm now seriously considering the Ascend Sierra towers.

Attached is my room layout
http://treyandkelsie05.smugmug.com/Other/Random/i-x48pbpj/0/XL/Gameroom-XL.png

I did not do a very good job drawing this to scale, the home theater portion of this room is about 12 ft deep and 10ft6 inches wide, so it is a bit deeper than it is wide. However, to the back wall it is 24 or 25 feet. Ceilings are low at approximately 8 ft. You can see my proposed layout for the area.

I have an SVS-PB12 NSD that will be crossed into the system. For now the system will be powered by my Yamaha V1700 and I will likely get a dedicated 2 ch amplifier sometime in 2013.

I currently have the Swan Diva 5.1's, C3 center and R3 surrounds. The purpose of the upgrade is to get both better music and movie performance out of the system with the primary emphasis placed on 2 channel music experience. While the system will probably get more home theater use, I am craving significantly better 2 channel music performance than what I have now.

As mentioned above my list was originally narrowed to the Imagine T2's from PSB and the Salk SCST's but after reading about Ascend, listening tests and interacting with people in the Ascend community, I feel I need to further research them.

That's where you guys come in...

I would assume the Ascend Sierra towers would be a significant upgrade from where I am now? Can anyone tell me what types of drivers they use (other than the tweeters)? What are the crossover points on these speakers? I can't find the crossover points anywhere and I've done a pretty exhaustive search. Are the crossovers high quality crossovers?

I'm considering the RAAL upgrade on the 2 channel mains, should I also do it on the center? Would the RAAL be the best option for me? Or should I stick with the NRT? I read Dave's PDF on the RAAL, does he have something similar showing the benefits of the NRT over the traditional dome? I've read pro's/con's about the ribbon's and frankly I am on the fence, but when implemented properly they do sound impressive.

How is the midrange on these speakers? I'm a fan of dedicated midrange drivers because I believe if the crossovers are done correctly you get more clarity and detail, especially at moderate volumes and up. Otherwise you're asking too much of a single or group of drivers all trying to cover 60hz-2khz. That is one of the big attractions to the PSB's and the Ascends.

Additionally, although perhaps a tiny bit unrelated, both here, at AVS and on another forum (audioholics maybe?) I have seen several people say that Ascend and Salk have different business models...what is different about the models? I ask because if what I've been reading is true, Ascend seems to have a similar or better product then the SCST's for several hundred dollars less. I think some of this may have to do with the cabinets? I have read transmission line cabinets are pretty difficult to produce and as a result cost more?

Any details you can give me on my situation, I would greatly appreciate. I'm especially interested in hearing differences between the NRT and the RAAL, when one works better over the other (room acoustics maybe?) and since I can't find a lot about the NRT some details on how it works would also be appreciated.

Obviously I expect some Ascend bias on the Ascend forum, but I've also seen some blatantly honest posts, including from DaveF telling folks they would or would not benefit from specific upgrades. I like that honesty and not simply trying to make a buck.

Sorry for the longish post, I just want you guys to have all the info I can think of up front.

[Jasonindenver]

I was in the same boat you are a few months ago.

I ended up getting the Tower with the RAAL upgrade and matching center.

I am very happy with the improvement in 2-channel audio when paired with my Marantz PM8004 integrated.

I am, however, seriously blown away with the center channel.

Where are you located, BTW???

If in Denver, I would be willing to let you have an in-person demo.

[OUGrad05]

I was in the same boat you are a few months ago.

I ended up getting the Tower with the RAAL upgrade and matching center.

I am very happy with the improvement in 2-channel audio when paired with my Marantz PM8004 integrated.

I am, however, seriously blown away with the center channel.

Where are you located, BTW???

If in Denver, I would be willing to let you have an in-person demo.

I am in Tulsa, was in Denver for RMAF...that was a LOT of fun.

[davef]

Hi OUGrad05,

Sorry I missed your posts and I am happy to answer your questions!


I would assume the Ascend Sierra towers would be a significant upgrade from where I am now? Can anyone tell me what types of drivers they use (other than the tweeters)? What are the crossover points on these speakers? I can't find the crossover points anywhere and I've done a pretty exhaustive search. Are the crossovers high quality crossovers?

Yes, most definitely. If you are looking for accuracy, detail and overall musicality -- I would say the Sierra Ribbon Towers are really in an entirely different league then your current speakers. Multi-chambered and layered bamboo cabinetry, arguably the best tweeter in the world, proprietary woofers and a customized under hung dedicated midrange all feeding off of a fully optimized crossover featuring air-core inductors and metalized polypropylene caps. These towers build and expand on the now world renowned legacy of our Sierra-1 bookshelf speakers.


I'm considering the RAAL upgrade on the 2 channel mains, should I also do it on the center? Would the RAAL be the best option for me? Or should I stick with the NRT? I read Dave's PDF on the RAAL, does he have something similar showing the benefits of the NRT over the traditional dome? I've read pro's/con's about the ribbon's and frankly I am on the fence, but when implemented properly they do sound impressive.

If you decide on the ribbons for the left/right speakers -- I also recommend going for the ribbon upgrade in the center. This will provide a perfectly seamless and timbre matched front soundstage. We have had many customers upgrade from the domes to the ribbons but we have only had once customer go from ribbons to domes and this customer preferred the edgy and more aggressive sound of a dome tweeter due to his musical preferences. For home theater, it is really a toss up between the NrT dome and RAAL ribbon, although there is increased intelligibility with the ribbons, especially at lower volume levels. For music listening, the ribbons really distinguish themselves.


How is the midrange on these speakers? I'm a fan of dedicated midrange drivers because I believe if the crossovers are done correctly you get more clarity and detail, especially at moderate volumes and up. Otherwise you're asking too much of a single or group of drivers all trying to cover 60hz-2khz. That is one of the big attractions to the PSB's and the Ascends.

These speakers were designed from the ground up for exceptional midrange performance. This was our #1 goal for this speaker and I feel we fully succeeded :)


Additionally, although perhaps a tiny bit unrelated, both here, at AVS and on another forum (audioholics maybe?) I have seen several people say that Ascend and Salk have different business models...what is different about the models? I ask because if what I've been reading is true, Ascend seems to have a similar or better product then the SCST's for several hundred dollars less. I think some of this may have to do with the cabinets? I have read transmission line cabinets are pretty difficult to produce and as a result cost more?

I am honestly not sure how to answer this. Both of our companies produce very high quality loudspeakers and we probably have more in common than we have differences. I do know that Salk builds there cabinets directly while we outsource our cabinets to highly skilled companies with decades of experience. We purchase all of our products in large quantities direct from the manufacturers (no middlemen) and this allows us to take advantage of volume pricing. For example, we just received a 1500pc shipment of tweeters direct from SEAS and we typically purchase about 2000 woofers per order. We also have a shipment on its way to us direct from RAAL ;) Purchasing in such large quantities allows us to customize or even completely design our own transducers. We enjoy exceptional vendor resources as I have been working with some of these companies for 23 years now!


Any details you can give me on my situation, I would greatly appreciate. I'm especially interested in hearing differences between the NRT and the RAAL, when one works better over the other (room acoustics maybe?) and since I can't find a lot about the NRT some details on how it works would also be appreciated.

There is a lot of information on our NrT dome scattered throughout this thread: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=4392&page=1

It is an exceptional dome tweeter fully custom built for us by SEAS and it features a neodymium ring-magnet (doughnut shaped custom formed magnet), which creates an exceptionally strong and better focused magnetic field. This doughnut shape creates a large opening directly behind the diaphragm which is specially damped so the back-wave produced by the tweeter is dramatically reduced. There are many other optimizations as well -- all said, it is an exceptional dome tweeter with extension to 28kHz and very fast transients. Our goal was to create a dome tweeter with the crispness and shrill of a quality metal dome tweeter but without the fatigue issues.

Hope this helps!

[Exlondoner]

Dave what are your thoughts on just going with the RAAL in the center?

[OUGrad05]

So in my situation, room dimensions, with my significant music library that ranges from rock, to rap, to country, to classical the RAAL is the way to go?

[Jasonindenver]

So in my situation, room dimensions, with my significant music library that ranges from rock, to rap, to country, to classical the RAAL is the way to go?

Yes, Yes, Good God Almighty Yes.

I am blown away with the ribbon tweeter.

The only thing I tested that I enjoyed even slightly as much was the KEF XQ40 with the concentric tweeter design.

The strongest benefit for my music is acoustic guitar, classical and jazz. Soft female vocals (think Diana Krall) really seem to float in the middle of the room.

I don't think rock and rap and modern country recordings will really show you much difference as I think most modern recordings are biased towards the louder end of the spectrum.

These speakers will definitely show the quality of your source media. It will benefit you to have good quality files. For example, once I burned in the towers for a few hours, I played Dark Side of the Moon from Itunes. I was seriously underwhelmed. Then I saw it was an older burn that I copied in a compressed format years ago. I brought out the CD and played it and it was much more lively and detailed. The cash register jumped from the speakers.

So, Yes, get the RAAL. Then be prepared to get a DAC and/or a high quality CD (OPPO???) and then prepare to start shopping for a higher quality two channel receiver. This is an addiction.

[davef]

Dave what are your thoughts on just going with the RAAL in the center?

If you enjoy watching movies at low volumes but yet still want great clarity and detail, the RAAL equipped center is a good idea. The RAAL will play just as loud and dynamic as our dome, but at lower listening levels with home theater sources, it offers improved intelligibility. We have many customers who have gone with this option.


So in my situation, room dimensions, with my significant music library that ranges from rock, to rap, to country, to classical the RAAL is the way to go?

Yep... :D

[JustaSheep]

If you enjoy watching movies at low volumes but yet still want great clarity and detail, the RAAL equipped center is a good idea. The RAAL will play just as loud and dynamic as our dome, but at lower listening levels with home theater sources, it offers improved intelligibility. We have many customers who have gone with this option.

+1

This is my configuration and can attest to what Dave has said. I rarely listen to TV/Movies at low volume, but when I have to, the RAAL is great.

[mattcpt]

OUGrad05,

In the event you haven't already read my posts regarding my listening experience of the Salk "Supercharged" Song Tower and Sierra Tower with RAAL; I've put the link to the thread below. Since posting in the thread, I've ordered the Sierra Towers with RAAL and custom Horizon center in the black bamboo finish, as well as 2 Rythmik F12 subs. The Towers are expected to be delivered tomorrow. I'm looking forward to the chance to hear them in my own environment for the first time. I will give them some time to break in before I post an opinion on the sound. I currently have 2 Rythmik F12 subs. I ordered all of the speakers at the same time (8 weeks ago), but the Sierra Towers have taken a little longer than expected. I won't be receiving the custom Horizon center until a later date (not sure when at this time).

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=5090&page=2

Matt