Subwoofer Help

[djmurray324]

Hi, thank you all for your help on my speakers thread. Yesterday I purchased Ascend 170's for my front left and right and the 340 center channel. To this I am adding a pair of Sonance or Emotiva in wall surround speakers.

My last decision, the subwoofer.

My room is 24x20, with 8 foot ceilings, so approximately 3,600 cubic feet. We don't need something that wil shake the whole house. I want to make sure I am only buying what I will use and not something I will never use to its fullest bc a sub company is pushing me. Unfortunately, I have no clue I do want something that will work really well in that space, but again we will never play it so loud that the house and walls will be shaking.

Based on some advice I have received, I have been looking at the following HSU, Rythmik, Outlaw Audio and Epik. My plan has been to wait for the best black Friday deal amongst these and go with that. I have been told that I need the 12 inch models, which run between $500-$550 before shipping.

Do I really need this size/price sub? Are there any others I should add to my watch list? Which would pair the best with my room/speakers?

Will something like the HSU STF 2 work well?

Thanks, Dennis

[DougMac]

I recommend Rhythmic, but that is pretty far over your budget. You might also want to consider the SVS PB-12 NSD. That's what I have (bought before Rhythmik was available finished).

The PB-12 NSD tests out in my room flat to 20hz. There's a ton of activity in the LFE channel below 32hz in modern action oriented movies. It is also musical, nice and subtle. I tested the SVS upstairs in our great room, which is an open space 24w x 40l x 22h and it had no problems filling it.

You need to cash in for caving to the WAF. Squeeze a little more money than you've been budgeted and go for the Rhythmik.

[kinggimp82]

In a room your size I think the 12" sub is needed. I feel that it is better to have too much sub than not enough. The STF-2 and the VTF-2 MK4 may both produce your desired volume. However, the STF-2 would need more effort to produce that volume. The VTF-2 MK4 of the other hand would be able to produce that volume much more effortlessly resulting in less strain on the sub itself. Even if it you never push the VTF-2 MK4 to its maximum ability you would still benefit from lower distortion and less strain on the sub over its lifetime. You can always turn down a more powerful sub but you cannot turn up a lesser sub that does not produce enough volume.

[kinggimp82]

The combination of the 170's for fronts and the 340 center will not disappoint. I had that exact combination myself and was extremely happy with it. Excellent sound quality. You will have to let us know what your impressions are and post some pictures.

Also I am suggesting hsu because that's what I'm familiar with. I think any of those brands you suggested would work well for you. As I said earlier go for the 12" and don't look back as you will be set for years to come. Anyway that's 2 cents.

[curtis]

I would also suggest Rythmik's FV12 at $549.

[Alleric]

Your list of manufacturers, plus SVS, were who I was investigating a year ago when I bought my sub. Based on reputation and word of mouth, any of those guys will have a solid shot at satisfying you. Really, at this level it becomes shades of grey on several variables.

Some things I would suggest you consider, since budget is a constraint.

Do you own and care about material below 20hz? You may, you may not, or you may not know. Compounding this is... have you ever experienced any substantial bass below... 40hz? I pick those numbers somewhat arbitrarily, but gravitated to them because 20hz is the conventional wisdom break of "what we can hear", and 40hz is an octave up. That's the low, epic-sounding stuff. And most subs from big box stores don't ever come close, especially in big rooms. My old Polk would crap out at 45hz, measured at the listening position. My HSU rolls all the way down into the mid teens. if you've never heard the real deal... you're in for a treat.

You say you don't want to shake the room, but it's astounding how much your listening experience can be improved with the ability to go down to 20hz or lower, even at modest volume levels. Even on plain old TV watching. Even on freakin HGTV if you can believe it. Several networks broadcasting in HD have vastly improved their audio quality as well.

Bass from House Hunters International.

Seriously.

Anyway...

I think all of the manufacturers you listed can get you there, except for Outlaw, at your price point. Other than that, all I can tell you is I love my Hsu, and if you had 110 more + shipping to spend I would say VTF-3 MK4 all day every day. The VTF-2 MK4 has a lesser-wattage version of the same amp. 2 EQ settings, 3 port configs, variable Q adjustment... you can basically tune the thing to your room or your whim.

And keep in mind, especially if you're indeed not experienced with really... really low bass: it's addictive. I would counsel you to buy more than what you "need" if you can, because oh lordy how that "need" line can change.

[djmurray324]

Great, thanks guys.

Just ran into some interesting reviews on the BIC PL 200. Is this something I should consider. Seems like quite the deal if its workable for me.

[djmurray324]

Alleric - I honestly don't know the answers to those questions. What I take from your post is that the ability to go lower will be enjoying, even at low volumes. With zero knowledge, I didn't understand this and figured it wouldn't matter.

Still would like everyone's thoughts on the BIC, but I'll most likely wait until Black Friday and look for the best deal.

[kinggimp82]

Where do you live? Maybe you could find somebody in your area that has one of these Brands of sub that you could listen to.

[Dark Ranger]

Hi Dennis,

Which BIC are you looking at?

You've got some prudent recommendations here so far. Overall, I agree with what's been said. Get yourself the Rythmik FV12 or the HSU VTF-2 MK4 to stay within your budget. An Epik Legend could also work. The current SVS models are a bit more pricy, but you may be able to find a deal on a used model.

You have high-quality front speakers and you need a subwoofer that can keep up in the sound quality department. I feel strongly that if you choose the BIC (for the attractive price), you'll be giving up some quality compared to the other choices mentioned above.

Do it right the first time. :)

[Alleric]

Given the other options... I would shy away from the BIC. That's me, though.

I mean... I guess the best way I could put it is this:

1. You buy the BIC, hook it up and react with "wow, this sounds nice". You're happy with your purchase and the story ends. The possible exception being all the other juicy subwoofer options we're all recommending. It might dig at you. It might not. Dunno.

2. You buy one of the ones we're recommending and react with "HOLY ^&%$", and then wake up a few minutes later from passing out.


Let's take a step back though.

What kind of music to you listen to?

What kind of movies do you listen to?

What listening levels do you utilize?

If we define "moderate" as a listening level where you could speak in a normal tone of voice to a person in the room with you... are you normally above or below that?

Ever do any out-of-soundfield listening by cranking it up to listen in another room?

If you're patient enough to wait for Black Friday deals, then we have enough time to really flesh out your usage, what you appreciate, and can tune our suggestions to that.

[curtis]

The reason why the BIC is well liked, is because the people that have them have not experienced a more capable sub.

By more "capable" I don't just mean louder.

[djmurray324]

Great thanks everyone, basically confirmed my original thought. Wait for Black Friday and buy one of those options.

I would say we typically listen at about a moderate level. We never do any I that testing.

[DougMac]

Regarding the BIC PL 200, here's what someone who had previously owned Hsu and ED subs thought:

"Just to clarify, this is NOT a sub even close to the likes of the high end subs from HSU, SVS, Seaton, etc. There is simply nothing that compares to a true high end sub. It just can't reproduce bass as authoritive, powerful and commanding as one of the big time units."

You can read the full review here (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430622/bic-pl-200-review-first-impressions-anyways).

My wife and I also usually listen at moderate levels. However, there are times that you just have to turn it up. I have a blu ray of the Eric Clapton Crossroads Guitar Festival that was well recorded in 5.1. It begs to be cranked. Fun movies like Up and Rango also shine at higher than normal levels. It's nice to have a system that can answer the call.

You'll also find that a good system with good speakers accomplishes two things. First, you don't have to turn it loud to hear dialog. We have friends with a well known speaker system. To hear the dialog, they have to turn it way up. After five minutes, I'm suffering ear fatigue. When you do turn up a good system, it doesn't sound "loud". I have a sound level meter app on my iPhone and checked the previews out our local theater because they are annoyingly loud. I was surprised to find it wasn't up in the 90-95db range like I suspected. It was around 85db with occasional 93db peaks. I came home and set our Ascend based home theater to the same levels. It didn't sound nearly as loud.

[Alleric]

Great thanks everyone, basically confirmed my original thought. Wait for Black Friday and buy one of those options.

I would say we typically listen at about a moderate level. We never do any I that testing.

Still though, what kind of music and movies to do you dig? It could help us tune suggestions.

[djmurray324]

I am mostly into alternative and rock music. My wife is into more pop. As for movies, we pretty much run the gamut. We do love Braveheart types of movies.

[Alleric]

Well... depending on the flavor of alt rock, it could lean electronic, it could lean metal, it could lean country. Can you give some examples so I can check them out and evaluate the low frequency needs?

As for movies, if you dig Braveheart, then I suppose you're saying you like action/adventure? That can mean 'splosions... and if that's the case, go as low as you can. :)

[djmurray324]

My favorite bands are Pearl Jam, Mumford and Sons, Kings of Leon,mthe Killers. Yes those types of movies but also dramas.

[Alleric]

Well, Mumford and Sons kinda seals the deal to me. If you want to get every last drop out of what Ted Dwane is doing, avoid the BIC. I'm still partial to the Hsu offerings, but Rythmik and the others have good things as well.

Drop-octave harmonics on a well-recorded standup bass are a thing of beauty.

This reminds me though... I've had a copy of Babel sitting here on my desk since it was released a couple of weeks ago, unopened. Work's been hellish. I think we'll have to crack that open this weekend and give a listen.

[kinggimp82]

My favorite bands are Pearl Jam, Mumford and Sons, Kings of Leon,mthe Killers. Yes those types of movies but also dramas.

Seeing as you like Kings of Leon check out this bluray sometime.

Kings of Leon: Live at the O2 London concert

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Kings-of-Leon-Live-at-the-O2-London-Blu-ray/7826/

[Alleric]

Seeing as you like Kings of Leon check out this bluray sometime.

Kings of Leon: Live at the O2 London concert

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Kings-of-Leon-Live-at-the-O2-London-Blu-ray/7826/

Or perhaps this fine documentary of the Railroad Revival Tour from last year (which the wife and I attendted): http://www.amazon.com/Big-Easy-Express-Blu-ray-DVD/dp/B008B1SJOE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350664623&sr=8-1&keywords=mumford+and+sons+blu+ray

[djmurray324]

Sweet. Thanks guys. Can't wait to check those out.

[jollo]

My last decision, the subwoofer.

My room is 24x20, with 8 foot ceilings, so approximately 3,600 cubic feet. We don't need something that wil shake the whole house. I want to make sure I am only buying what I will use and not something I will never use to its fullest bc a sub company is pushing me. Unfortunately, I have no clue I do want something that will work really well in that space, but again we will never play it so loud that the house and walls will be shaking.

Based on some advice I have received, I have been looking at the following HSU, Rythmik, Outlaw Audio and Epik. My plan has been to wait for the best black Friday deal amongst these and go with that. I have been told that I need the 12 inch models, which run between $500-$550 before shipping.

Do I really need this size/price sub? Are there any others I should add to my watch list? Which would pair the best with my room/speakers?


Here's my vote for the SVS PB-12 NSD (because I own one :D).

Seriously; I think the SVS is a good value for the money. I have the Ascend towers and a living room with about the same cubic volume you mentioned. I have the Towers crossed over at 50 Hz to the sub.

I listen to probably 80% music and 20% home theatre. I like everything from acoustic jazz (Miles Davis, John Mclaughlin, Wynton Marsalis...) to classic and prog rock (Yes, ELP, Porcupine Tree...) as well as some electronica (Boards of Canada, Infected Mushroom...) and some heavier stuff (Cosmosquad, Smashing Pumpkins, Jordan Rudess...).

For movies I like everything from foreign and classic movies to modern smash and bang (Prometheus gave the SVS a good work out).

In a room with the large physical volume you have, it's good to move some air even if not playing your system loudly. I have the box shaped sub and have it stuck in a corner with a lamp on it, so it makes a passable end table also :).

Here's a crappy cellphone photo to give you the idea:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/91850195/SVS01.jpg

[Alleric]

Here's my vote for the SVS PB-12 NSD (because I own one :D).

Seriously; I think the SVS is a good value for the money. I have the Ascend towers and a living room with about the same cubic volume you mentioned. I have the Towers crossed over at 50 Hz to the sub.

I listen to probably 80% music and 20% home theatre. I like everything from acoustic jazz (Miles Davis, John Mclaughlin, Wynton Marsalis...) to classic and prog rock (Yes, ELP, Porcupine Tree...) as well as some electronica (Boards of Canada, Infected Mushroom...) and some heavier stuff (Cosmosquad, Smashing Pumpkins, Jordan Rudess...).

For movies I like everything from foreign and classic movies to modern smash and bang (Prometheus gave the SVS a good work out).

In a room with the large physical volume you have, it's good to move some air even if not playing your system loudly. I have the box shaped sub and have it stuck in a corner with a lamp on it, so it makes a passable end table also :).

Here's a crappy cellphone photo to give you the idea:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/91850195/SVS01.jpg

Unfortunately, though, that sub is 210 bucks above his stated budget, and he's already indicated he's going to need/want to wait for sales as is.

[jollo]

Unfortunately, though, that sub is 210 bucks above his stated budget, and he's already indicated he's going to need/want to wait for sales as is.

My bad... No harm no foul I hope. I was just thinking sometimes budgets can be stretched a bit. :o

[billy p]

You can never have too much sub...I started with a pb10nsd and within a yr I sold it and went bigger and better. It's being ~2.5yrs with my current sub(custom build) and once again I find myself looking to upgrade...in the end it will cost you much more....after your addicated to real good bass there is no looking back....:D

Good luck...:)

[Alleric]

My bad... No harm no foul I hope. I was just thinking sometimes budgets can be stretched a bit. :o

Oh I know, man. I was looking over SVS offerings when I did my shopping. Heck, I even said earlier that if his budget went up a bit I would totally be pointing at a VTF-3. :)

There's always the "what I would do if <insert contingency here>". :)

Mine? What I would do if I didn't have asthetic or practical room constraints would be to find a 15 inch driver with a silly low FS and a silly high BL, and build a silly big (not quite Bessel alignment) box tuned (to the frequencies whales fart at) really low. Then I would turn around and build another one. Then I would wire them to run stereo and LFE.

Of course, then I might need some towers... :D

(totally off topic, I know, and I do apologize. methinks my brain is doing anything it can to stop thinking about dramatic ETL process modifications to our data environment) :o

[djmurray324]

I hear you, but truthfully a full price VTF 2 is a stretch of my budget.