Is a 100WPC AVR enough for reference levels

[sonicboom]

I currently have 340s for front mains paired to 2 subs. There is also a pair of CBMs sitting in the storage waiting until I get at least a 5.1 AVR.

My question is: Will an AVR claiming to have 100wpc be enough to achieve reference level in my 20x12x10 living room? To be honest, I don't even know what reference level is in terms of decibels, though in borrowing the term, I simply mean loud.

I am looking at the Marantz SR5007 100W 7.2 Receiver ($850.00).

I am soliciting the advice of those in the know. You may also suggest other brands and models that you think will outperform the one I'm considering, or will be a better match for my Ascends.

Thank you very much,
Daniel

[natetg57]

You're speakers are quite sensitive (90db) so they should play very loud with a modest amount of power.

You could get higher power specs with a Denon AVR-991 (125 watts/channel) http://www.ebay.com/itm/DENON-AVR-991-7-2-Channel-Networking-Multi-Source-Multi-Zone-A-V-Receiver-/370641445586?pt=Receivers_Tuners&hash=item564bf3a2d2

I'm not saying it's a 'better' sounding receiver but it has similar features and more 'rated' power. I'm really happy with mine. You just wouldn't be able to add an external amp.

[DougMac]

My question is: Will an AVR claiming to have 100wpc be enough to achieve reference level in my 20x12x10 living room? To be honest, I don't even know what reference level is in terms of decibels, though in borrowing the term, I simply mean loud.

THX defines reference level as 85db with 20db of headroom for peaks. In layman's terms, that's really loud. My Onkyo receiver, like most others, is supposed to be outputting a reference level signal when set to 0db. I very rarely listen at that level, normally I set the volume to -15db, with concerts set to -5db. There are so many factors, though, that determine whether you measure 85db at your listening position when the receiver is set to 0db.

What does 100wpc mean? The problem is that manufacturers express power rating in different ways. Most give ratings based on just two channels driven. The power with all channels driven on a 7.1 receiver may be considerably less. They also may use different distortion levels. Two receivers rated at 100wpc might be rated that power with one producing significantly higher distortion. It's really hard to judge by watts alone. Denon was mentioned by another poster. The 125wpc may actually produce less undistorted volume than an 80wpc high current NAD receiver.

The good news is that 340's, which I use for L/C/R, are efficient. Drive them with a good quality AVR receiver rated at 100-130 wpc and you'll be able to play them plenty loud.

[RicardoJoa]

Not sure what reference level means but with 90 db should get pretty loud in that size room.

[natetg57]

What does 100wpc mean? The problem is that manufacturers express power rating in different ways. Most give ratings based on just two channels driven. The power with all channels driven on a 7.1 receiver may be considerably less. They also may use different distortion levels. Two receivers rated at 100wpc might be rated that power with one producing significantly higher distortion. It's really hard to judge by watts alone. Denon was mentioned by another poster. The 125wpc may actually produce less undistorted volume than an 80wpc high current NAD receiver.



I agree. this test report from S&V even though not matching claimed output was still pretty good. soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-denon-avr-991-av-receiver?page=0,3
Any good A/V receiver should get you to 'very loud' levels. Especially when crossed over to a sub.

[DougMac]

I am looking at the Marantz SR5007 100W 7.2 Receiver ($850.00).


Daniel,
I did a little research on the Marantz, out of curiosity. It seems well regarded and with good power. I think you'll be happy!

BTW, the Audyssey MultiEQ really helps with room anomolies. You may have to change the settings after running the setup, though. It wanted to set my crossover at 40hz, but after I adjusted it to 80hz, it really sounded great.

[sonicboom]

The 125wpc may actually produce less undistorted volume than an 80wpc high current NAD receiver.

Thank you guys for your responses. Very helpful indeed.

I think I need some more education here. How will I know whether an AVR is high current or not? I have only paid attention to watts per channel.

[hearing specialist]

The Marantz receivers deliver quality and true amplification. Don't think you should worry about the juice it holds. If your going to drive a set of 340's you should be good. The 340's are sensitive and ready to deliver, imo. The Audyssey room correction will do wonders and the time alignment is pretty precise so you should have quality amplification driving quality speakers. The 340's are not so much what will need correction but the room, the listening distance, and time alignment. All said components are requirements for high intensity home theater listening. Good stuff! :cool:


Brian

[Alleric]

Thank you guys for your responses. Very helpful indeed.

I think I need some more education here. How will I know whether an AVR is high current or not? I have only paid attention to watts per channel.

Long version:

Unfortunately, in the realm of A/V receivers, you'll get very little info, if any considering the amplification stage of the chassis. Current? Slew rate? Damping? Good luck. Short of walking into a shop with a multimiter and oscilliscope and testing things youself I'm not sure how you would go about getting an amperage measurement or any transient behavior measurments off an output channel. Even then, the shop employees might not take too kindly to you hooking things up ad-hoc to their stuff. Heck, they may not even know what a multimiter is, and that you're not really hurting anything.

Normally they just hand you a wattage value and a total harmonic distortion value and send you on your way.

So where does that leave us?

Well, you could start with what you know and can measure: features and price. You're looking at receivers, which means you want it to do something other than just amplify an input signal. What are those somethings? Also, if there's a budgetary limitation, then it just doesn't matter what the features are, or the current values on the output stage. Price is still price. This is why I don't daily drive a 2010 Porsche 911 GT2 RS. It'd get me to the grocery store way faster than my current car, but man it's spendy.

So my suggestion is to make a list of your must-have's as far as inputs, outputs, internal processing, etc... the "somethings". Now decide on your price point, or price range. Lastly, do some footwork and make a list of receivers that meet your feature and price criteria.

At the end of all that, if you really want to know anything and everything about the amplifier stages of those receivers, you can contact the manufacturer and ask them what you want to know. Or you can just hunt down reviews of the receivers in your list and see if those write-ups can shed some light on things.

For some folks in the world, there is a singular "perfect" when it comes to audio gear. For those that have that vision, and the means to bring it to fruition, this process is quite simple. For the rest of us... there's a range of "perfects", and there's usually a range of options that could make us quite happy. So just start with what you know you want to get out of the solution, and work towards the unknowns. Just keep in mind... sometimes the unknowns don't really matter to most of us.

Short version:

There are various reputable companies out there that make good receivers. Marantz is one of them. So is Onkyo, Pioneer, NAD and others. I don't think I've personally met anyone who bought a well-reviewed receiver from a reputable company, gotten it home, hooked it up, listened to it and said "HULK SMASH! CURRENT RATE AND SLEW ARE UNACCEPTABLE! RAR!". :)

I'm not saying those people don't exist. I'm saying I don't actually know any of them. :)

[Alleric]

Oh, and I forgot.... power (wattage) is not linear as far as translation to speaker output.

All things being equal...ish...

90db @ 1 Watt @ 1 meter base speaker sensitivity =

93 db @ 2 watts @ 1 meter
96 db @ 4 watts @ 1 meter
99 db @ 8 watts @ 1 meter

...

111 db @ 128 watts @ 1 meter


This equation progression presumes a lot of perfection in a lot of variables, and my math is highly generalized here, but it shows a behavior: You don't need a lot of watts to get loud.

What you DO need a lot of watts for (and current, slew rate, damping, etc...)... is to get to the volume level you want cleanly, without clipping the output stage of the amp, introducing distortion.

Your milage may indeed vary, but as DougMac said before me: reputable company, 100ish watts and I can't see you being disappointed.

[sonicboom]

Wow! I am very thankful for the amount of information I am getting from all of you guys.

OK, let's assume I'm going Marantz.
Their SR5007 ($850) is the entry level of the SR series and is 100wpc. The top of the line in the series is the SR7007 ($1,800) and sports 125wpc. Setting aside connectivity and feature differences, what will the 25wpc increase bring to the table?

The SR5007 has all the connections and features I need. Will I miss the extra 25wpc the SR7007 brings?

Again, I appreciate all your responses.

[natetg57]

According to this, the difference is mostly in the number of connections which you might not need. http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/marantz-sr7007-sr6007-sr5007-pre

[DougMac]

The SR5007 has all the connections and features I need. Will I miss the extra 25wpc the SR7007 brings?


Not for the difference in price, unless you have unlimited funds. I think the difference could be applied to other things that would provide more enjoyment.

[Alleric]

What the others have already said. If you go back to my very loose math on the non-linearness of power and walk it backwards, you'll see that the last 64 watts of power the amp had was burned up getting that last 3db of volume. The first 64 watts the amp had got you the first 108db.

Even with how dynamic the waveforms are coming off a speaker cone, 100db or greater is still threshold for both pain and serious, permanent hearing damage.

I don't think the 25 watts matter.

[curtis]

The extra 25 watts equates to less than 1db more in output.

[phipp01]

Get a Denon 3313 and you would have probably the same AVR as the 7007 for a lot less money. I would spent the extra $250 over the 5007 for the Denon. Just MO.

[darkpoet25]

You could also try getting the Marantz or Onkyo or Denon(after you have done some research of course to determine which you prefer) from www.accessories4less.com. Some will be new and some will be a refurb, but the refurb's are manufacturer fixed and approved for resale through them. Plenty of people have bought from them and have had no problems with their purchases. It could save you some money too, from buying new. The only drawback would be, that I think(not sure, you can always double check) is that they only come with a 1 year warranty as opposed to the 2-3 year you would get buying new.

[sonicboom]

Thanks for the sound advice, guys.

This will be a departure from my original title, but I read about receivers that are "warm" sounding and otherwise. Some say that Marantz is more towards the "warm".

Having Ascend speakers that are known to be neutral, what kind of receiver sound is a better match? I noticed that a lot of today's music does not sound good on my Ascends because of the speakers' honest-to-goodness neutrality. Garbage in, garbage out. Will a receiver with a particular sound somewhat help in this regard?

[phipp01]

You could also try getting the Marantz or Onkyo or Denon(after you have done some research of course to determine which you prefer) from www.accessories4less.com. Some will be new and some will be a refurb, but the refurb's are manufacturer fixed and approved for resale through them. Plenty of people have bought from them and have had no problems with their purchases. It could save you some money too, from buying new. The only drawback would be, that I think(not sure, you can always double check) is that they only come with a 1 year warranty as opposed to the 2-3 year you would get buying new.

Some refurbs come with a one year but others come with the full manufacturers warranty. If a refurb scares you with a one year warranty there is always Mack or Square Trade EWs that are relatively cheap. But there are times that Electronic Expo is cheaper for brand new than accessories4less refurbs. Denon 4311 for example, $1200 at accessories compared to between $1050 and $1150 brand new at EE if you call them.

[GirgleMirt]

Thanks for the sound advice, guys.

This will be a departure from my original title, but I read about receivers that are "warm" sounding and otherwise. Some say that Marantz is more towards the "warm".

Having Ascend speakers that are known to be neutral, what kind of receiver sound is a better match? I noticed that a lot of today's music does not sound good on my Ascends because of the speakers' honest-to-goodness neutrality. Garbage in, garbage out. Will a receiver with a particular sound somewhat help in this regard?
You answered your own question when you said it was garbage in garbage out! :cool:

It depends what you mean by warm. If it's an excess of bass, and a record lacks bass, then yeah, sure, it will help for that one record. If another record has an excess of bass and you add yet again bass, then you'll have twice the excess of bass... Records that have perfect bass will have an excess of bass... Same for a bright sounding record, it'll help for some, make it worst for others...

Many records are compressed to hell and then there's simply nothing to do. It'll always sound bad...

Anyhow, is there that much variation between receivers? Amps normally shouldn't vary much in the FR, all like at least +/- 1dB from 20-20 and a good amp will be <0.1dB... Ex: NAD 370

http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/NADc370fig01.jpg
http://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-c370-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Another option, whathever amp you get, if you feel yourself lacking power, you can always buy a power amp such as a Behringer A500 (200 watts for around 200$...), then hook up say your mains to it, it alleviates the workload of your receiver for your center/rears and the mains get a 'fresh' 200 watts of clean power to sing.

Receivers are limited by their power supply I think so driving 2 or 3 speakers is not like you're 'wasting' 200-300 watts of power because it's a 5x100 watts, that 'extra' power unused will be available for other speakers which would not be the case if 5 speakers were driven... Basically you'd drive 2-3 speakers better than 5 at the same time. (Anyhow, really not an expert on receivers so others can probably shine in)