Just got my Sierra-1 NrT speakers (1,750) .... first impressions .... and pictures.

[Pianist718]

UPDATE:

I was going from a 12 year old HTiB system (Onkyo big speakers) ... $600 to the Sierras-1 NrT L/C/R


So my Sierra-1 NrT came yesterday and by the time I was done hooking them up it was 11pm so I couldn't turn the sound too loud. I expected more to tell you the truth, BUT I am not jumping into conclusions as they have not been played enough yet, I didn't listen to them at good volume, speaker stands are too tall (see pictures below) and I just want to give them a chance, PLUS, I'll be connecting my old HTiB speakers back to see if going back to original will show me just how bad the old speakers are.

Sound so far from speakers is nice. Sometimes too bright. Maybe it's the NrT upgrade that creates a "fake" highs. Don't know. After I did the auto calibration via my receiver and microphone, sound became a bit more spacious. Meaning that L/R speakers gained some volume while center was toned down a bit.

I have yet to check this with movies that on my old HTiB system gave me too much effect and not that great on voice/speech clarity. Will do more listening tonight.

I also feel the need for a good sub. I now hear that my HTiB sub-woofer is somewhat killing the overall sound.

Deciding if I should go 30" or 26" high speaker stands. See pics below ... those are 36". Too high.

For reference .... TV is 50".

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/50577/width/500/height/1000

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/50578/width/500/height/1000

P.S. Was I expecting too much from reading all the great reviews???

P.P.S. I loved the sound improvement when I went from sound from TV L/R to my Onkyo home theater 5.1 system and I expected that improvement to increase by two with better speakers that I am spending $1,750 on. Was I expecting too much???

[RicardoJoa]

Your room kinda look similar to mind. Looking at those couch, it seems to me those stands are way too high. Those couch look kinda low so you may consider stands that are shorter, other wise you would be hearing vertical off axis response too much. I would also pull the speaker out from the wall. Try some toe in for one, your speaker seems to be far away from each other with respect to listen position, and for two at least your speakers wont be firing direct to the back wall, you will still get those reflection anyway. I would disable you room correction as well. Since your subs are not contributing good sound , i would disconnect them as well.

[qwknuf6]

Ditch that sub , it will take some time for your ears to adjust , give it a few days .

[merrymaid520]

For starters, turn off any receiver auto calibration settings or EQ stuff. This is often the culprit. Sit back and acclimate yourself to them. Again, they will portray a different sound than you are used to and hopefully you feel its better:)

[Dark Ranger]

Hi Pianist,

First off, welcome to the Ascend family. The quality and performance of your new Sierra-1s are a huge step up. Let me also say that, objectively, there are many factors involved with how sound is perceived, including the room and one's own hearing. It's completely OK if, after some time with them, you don't find them to your liking. It's also possible that your previous system (speakers and/or room correction) rolled off the high frequencies so that now your new speakers sound bright.

Shorter stands will help with off-axis issues, but you're aware of that already. I'd also suggest pulling the L/R speakers forward a bit (at least to the edge of carpet) to give more room behind them. Toeing in could help, but I see you have a seat in the corner. Assuming that seat is used for watching TV/movies, adding toe in would compromise that position even more.

I would also echo some of the suggestions of others: for now, don't use the subwoofer since it does not provide a good match with your Sierra-1s. I'd also bypass any room correction software for now.

I agree with what's been mentioned so far: give yourself some time to adjust to the new, more accurate speakers. However, since it looks like you purchased these brand new, remember that you have 30 days to try them in your home. If you're not satisfied, simply send them back. :)

Please do keep us updated and we'll try to help where possible. If you would like additional tech support, I recommend you give Ascend a call and they can work with you to optimize your setup.

[Mag_Neato]

Agree with the comments thus far. Stands are way too tall. Tweeters should ideally be at ear level. Definitely pull the speakers as far forward as possible, perhaps just slightly in front of the tv screen to minimize reflections which can destroy imaging. Also, the positioning relative to the short/long walls is not optimum, but you have to work with what the room gives you. I have 30" tall stands for my NrT's and with the chair I am forced to use at present, are just a bit short. If I had a real easy chair rather than a wood kitchen table chair they might be too high. Play with toe-in/out. Mine are slightly toed-in but not aimed at the listening position.

Also, if you are not accustomed to a neutral, flat response speaker the sound can seem bright and/or lean at first since there is no rolling off of the high frequencies and no mid-bass bump to make the bass seem more powerful.

I generally leave Audyssey/EQ off when listening to music. I did run the Audyssey to get the basics set up, then turned off the EQ to listen to music.

[billy p]

I recall my expections when I ordered my Sierra's was very high and I'll admit...I wasn't awed from the outset but they sounded very nice. It wasn't until a few days later when I compared them to my other speakers I began to understand what the fuss was about. As the others have offered some great advice do some tweaking and keep us abreast of your progress & thoughts and we'll try & assit you it could be they aren't your cup of tea?

Good luck...btw I used top of my cabinet before I bought my stands you could try that and see if that helps change how they sound?

Bill

[Blutarsky]

I agree that they will need to come out, with a little toe in. The Q-Plugs might really help. I wound up with my Sierra-1's about 11" out with Q-Plug B.

They are terrific speakers, and worth tweaking. Try running Pure Audio 2 channel until you get the mains dialed in.

You will smile really big when you hit the sweet spot.

B.

[parimento1]

I am going to give you a few tips on how to set these up:

1. Lower stands, like 24-28 should be fine
2. put the receiver on "audio direct" or equivalent, with no tone controls or equalization crap.
3. Make sure you use at least a 12 gauge cable to hook them up or they will have little bass, making them sound "bright."
4. Experiment with toe in if you like, this can help you tailor the high frequency and midrange to your taste, as well as adjust the soundstage. There is no hard and fast rule for this, just adjust until they sound right to you.

[Pianist718]

I am going to give you a few tips on how to set these up:

1. Lower stands, like 24-28 should be fine
2. put the receiver on "audio direct" or equivalent, with no tone controls or equalization crap.
3. Make sure you use at least a 12 gauge cable to hook them up or they will have little bass, making them sound "bright."
4. Experiment with toe in if you like, this can help you tailor the high frequency and midrange to your taste, as well as adjust the soundstage. There is no hard and fast rule for this, just adjust until they sound right to you.

Yea, I'll go with the 26".
My receiver has options like "Direct" but also as "Standard" or "Straight". Which one do I go with, Usually I am on the later one I think.

My wires are 14 Gauge. Many said that 14 is good enough. When I was cutting the wires I did cut a bit too deep and maybe lost a little width on the wire. Is that a problem?

[Mag_Neato]

Yea, I'll go with the 26".
My receiver has options like "Direct" but also as "Standard" or "Straight". Which one do I go with, Usually I am on the later one I think.

My wires are 14 Gauge. Many said that 14 is good enough. When I was cutting the wires I did cut a bit too deep and maybe lost a little width on the wire. Is that a problem?

14 should be fine. I assume you mean you cut into the wire while stripping off the insulation on the ends of the wire? Just snip off the ends where the bad part is and re-strip using less pressure on the cut around the jacket. It's ok if you don't cut through to the wire completely, you can usually pull the scored insulation off with a slight tearing action.

[parimento1]

14 is just fine...some people hook it up with like 22 or 24 gauge that looks like dental floss and then wonder what happened..lol


Yea, I'll go with the 26".
My receiver has options like "Direct" but also as "Standard" or "Straight". Which one do I go with, Usually I am on the later one I think.

My wires are 14 Gauge. Many said that 14 is good enough. When I was cutting the wires I did cut a bit too deep and maybe lost a little width on the wire. Is that a problem?

[Pianist718]

14 should be fine. I assume you mean you cut into the wire while stripping off the insulation on the ends of the wire? Just snip off the ends where the bad part is and re-strip using less pressure on the cut around the jacket. It's ok if you don't cut through to the wire completely, you can usually pull the scored insulation off with a slight tearing action.

Yea I might have screwed it up a bit too much. Like about 20% of width of that wire came off. Is that a problem? Realistically? Did I just changed my 14 gauge to 20 ? :-)

[GirgleMirt]

Sound so far from speakers is nice. Sometimes too bright. Maybe it's the NrT upgrade that creates a "fake" highs. Don't know.

What did you listen to? (format & material)

One thing to be aware of is that some recordings or sounds on some recordings are bright and some sounds can sound harsh... So if they don't sound bright on some speakers it can often be the speaker's fault; the speakers don't reproduce it correctly...

There's also break-in that people often mention...

The glass table might somewhat be an issue too for some reflections.. hehe

[davef]

Hi Pianist718,

Some great advice here so far :)

Please make sure the speakers are wired directly to the receiver and not connected to the subwoofer first. Some HTiB systems require connecting the speakers to the subwoofer. I would also recommend running the Sierra-1 as “large” (full range) and turn off all Room-EQ (Audyssey) for now. However, be sure to properly level match the speakers.

That said, your Onkyo HtiB speakers are simply not capable of producing the same level of resolution as the Sierra-1 NrT. Your statement:


Sound so far from speakers is nice. Sometimes too bright. Maybe it's the NrT upgrade that creates a "fake" highs. Don't know.

clues me in to this as the NrT dome is a world class tweeter and is going to reproduce much more of the high frequency response that is contained in the source material than your previous speakers. What you are hearing is actually much more of what you should be hearing compared to before. Your previous speakers have become your frame of reference so when listening to something different, it is common at first to hear the sound as not being correct and/or not as pleasing.

I liken this phenomenon to our sense of taste. Back in my college years, we all drank Budweiser and it tasted great to me, it was the best. I clearly remember my father introducing me to “better” beers and while they tasted different, they didn’t actually taste better to me, worse even. Years later, and after drinking better beers, my sense of taste improved dramatically and I could never drink Budweiser again. I find it funny how I can no longer stand those types of Beers. My tastes have become more refined, more experienced, much more critical…

It is the exact same with loudspeakers… The majority of our customers who upgrade to a speaker like the Sierra-1 NrT are already coming from very high quality loudspeakers and have much critical listening experience. These are the customers that are usually the most “blown away” with our products as they have already developed a critical ear and are accustomed to high resolution and accurate sound reproduction. One would think that it would be customers coming from much lower end speakers who are the most impressed initially but the exact opposite is true.

It is going to take some time for you to get used to the different sound and in doing so, you will also develop a much more critical ear. I warn you, there is no turning back from here ;)

That said, I do not recommend going back and forth between the different speakers. You need to clear your palette, so to speak, and start fresh. Optimize your setup by taking some of the great advice posted here and then relax and listen to the Sierra-1 NrT for a few weeks, and *only* these speakers… Listen to the subtleties in the recordings, the harmonics produced when a pick hits a guitar strong, the singer’s breaths, listen to what is behind the instruments, behind the music… After a few weeks of this, only then switch back to your Onkyo speakers and the differences should become quite obvious to you… You have a set of world class loudspeakers capable of tremendous amounts of resolution and detail – you need to give your ears and brain some time to adjust.

Have fun and enjoy!!!

[davef]

Yea I might have screwed it up a bit too much. Like about 20% of width of that wire came off. Is that a problem? Realistically? Did I just changed my 14 gauge to 20 ? :-)

Do not be at all concerned about this...

[GirgleMirt]

Good info from Dave as always :)

Also just want to reiterate that sadly, not all recordings are good recordings... That's probably one of the things you'll notice when you have your first pair of good speakers, some albums just don't sound that great... I know a lot of people think great speakers will make everything sound fantastic, but sadly, not always the case... Sometimes you can hear better how bad the recording is :(

Somewhat of painful experience sometimes, like the music but doesn't really sound great, sounds great but not that amazing music.. lol But all worth it when you find a really good recording, then you play it on a good system, ear-gasm! :D

[darkpoet25]

Good info from Dave as always :)

Also just want to reiterate that sadly, not all recordings are good recordings... That's probably one of the things you'll notice when you have your first pair of good speakers, some albums just don't sound that great... I know a lot of people think great speakers will make everything sound fantastic, but sadly, not always the case... Sometimes you can hear better how bad the recording is :(

Somewhat of painful experience sometimes, like the music but doesn't really sound great, sounds great but not that amazing music.. lol But all worth it when you find a really good recording, then you play it on a good system, ear-gasm! :D

I know what you mean. I've had my CBM-170's for a few months now, and can hear the differences between a good recording and a bad recording now. Sadly a lot of the newer remasters that some labels are releasing, are mastered way too loud and bright, as opposed to being natural and warm sounding.

[phlw]

Don't fret, I had a similar issue when I played my Sierra-1 NrT's in a small room. They sounded great in our large room, but I think the many reflections in the smaller room from the off-axis sound of the very nice NrT tweeter made things seem a little bright at first.

First, the speakers will relax a bit and sound somewhat more cohesive as they break over 20 to 40 hours playing. This is similar to how lasagna tastes good the first evening, but better the second day as the flavors blend! I found that aiming the speakers directly at me helped when they were new, but as time went on, I liked them better with less toe-in.

Try this... play some music that has some good female vocals. Sit at your couch, close your eyes and and slowly stand up. Listen closely to the voice and move up until it they are the most natural sounding. When you hear what you like open your eyes and look at where your head is in relation to the speakers. This is the level you want the speakers to be when you are sitting down. Now try to put the speakers at this same relative level to your head when you are sitting on the couch. You may have to do this exercise once again after you have changed the height of the speakers because they will sound a little different due to the height change.

Hang a thick blanket on the wall behind the couch. Also, perhaps stack some pillows on the top of the couch bench behind your head. The idea is to keep the sound from bouncing off the back wall causing reverberations. Move the glass top coffee table, or put something sound absorbent on top of it.

I know this is a bit of work, but it is what has helped me in the past.

If you have more in your budget, another great improvement to in-you-face sound from digital music was I bought a Schitt Audio Bifrost external DAC. (Two-channel only... no surround $350). You can really hear the difference from good electronics when you have a high-end speaker. As a matter of fact, the upgraded DAC made the Sierra-1's really sing in my small room with no brightness at all!

Best of luck. The Sierra-1 is an incredible speaker. I listen to many, and none could touch it for the price.

[RicardoJoa]

By the way, someone mentioned in avs, is that you may try to flip the speaker upside down for now so the tweeter are at the bottom. This should make an audiable difference. Experiemnt is the key.
Good luick

[Pianist718]

Hi Pianist718,

Some great advice here so far :)

Please make sure the speakers are wired directly to the receiver and not connected to the subwoofer first. Some HTiB systems require connecting the speakers to the subwoofer. I would also recommend running the Sierra-1 as “large” (full range) and turn off all Room-EQ (Audyssey) for now. However, be sure to properly level match the speakers.

That said, your Onkyo HtiB speakers are simply not capable of producing the same level of resolution as the Sierra-1 NrT. Your statement:



clues me in to this as the NrT dome is a world class tweeter and is going to reproduce much more of the high frequency response that is contained in the source material than your previous speakers. What you are hearing is actually much more of what you should be hearing compared to before. Your previous speakers have become your frame of reference so when listening to something different, it is common at first to hear the sound as not being correct and/or not as pleasing.

I liken this phenomenon to our sense of taste. Back in my college years, we all drank Budweiser and it tasted great to me, it was the best. I clearly remember my father introducing me to “better” beers and while they tasted different, they didn’t actually taste better to me, worse even. Years later, and after drinking better beers, my sense of taste improved dramatically and I could never drink Budweiser again. I find it funny how I can no longer stand those types of Beers. My tastes have become more refined, more experienced, much more critical…

It is the exact same with loudspeakers… The majority of our customers who upgrade to a speaker like the Sierra-1 NrT are already coming from very high quality loudspeakers and have much critical listening experience. These are the customers that are usually the most “blown away” with our products as they have already developed a critical ear and are accustomed to high resolution and accurate sound reproduction. One would think that it would be customers coming from much lower end speakers who are the most impressed initially but the exact opposite is true.

It is going to take some time for you to get used to the different sound and in doing so, you will also develop a much more critical ear. I warn you, there is no turning back from here ;)

That said, I do not recommend going back and forth between the different speakers. You need to clear your palette, so to speak, and start fresh. Optimize your setup by taking some of the great advice posted here and then relax and listen to the Sierra-1 NrT for a few weeks, and *only* these speakers… Listen to the subtleties in the recordings, the harmonics produced when a pick hits a guitar strong, the singer’s breaths, listen to what is behind the instruments, behind the music… After a few weeks of this, only then switch back to your Onkyo speakers and the differences should become quite obvious to you… You have a set of world class loudspeakers capable of tremendous amounts of resolution and detail – you need to give your ears and brain some time to adjust.

Have fun and enjoy!!!

Dave, thanks for the info.

Yea I have it connected straight into the receiver. By the way you must hate customers like me. I run a company that sells consumer electronics to over 2,700 customers a day and we avoid those that ask too many questions as they'll never be 100% happy. That's me. :-)

I like your suggestion of not doing the A/B test so soon. I'll let these play out for a bit, set them on new 26" stands and then we'll see.

Anyway ... here is what I did yesterday

1) Turned speakers a bit towards me (center)
2) Changed Receiver to play "DIRECT" .... very interesting improvement. Probably shows that some tweaks I or system did were not that great. Even regular TV shows sound brighter when DIRECT than in "STRAIGHT" which is the receiver sound emphasized as they say option.
3) Pushed speakers further away from the wall.
4) I turned sub off but decided to keep it ON in lower volume to get that extra depth.
5) Receiver option for speakers changed to "Large" for all L/C/R
6) Crossover I think is at 88.


What I noticed and what I am truly impressed with.

1) I've never heard a saxophone sound as nice as it did out of the Sierras-1

2) Human vocals sometimes are too bright. I'll look into my receiver settings to dim that down a bit though it really depends on music recordings I play.

3) Biggest improvement so far is the Home Theater movie dialog sound. I hated how on a movie like "Amadeus", my HTiB would play sound effects very loud and human voices (dialog) was not that crisp so I would play with the volume all the time. The Sierras solved that problem. Dialog is amazing. Can hear every word, breath, etc coming out of a human.


I have not used my Receiver's Audyssey option since the above changes. I wonder if I do it now if it'll do anything. I am still a bit confused as to the "DIRECT" option vs "STRAIGHT" option on my receiver. Direct means that sound is played exactly as it was recorded without having the receiver do anything to it ... meaning even if I do the Audyssey test, it will not apply when I play "DIRECT" ?

Which option should I be using for 2ch music and which option for Dolby Digital or TruHD movies? If I keep at DIRECT will it play in TruHD?

thanks.

P.S. ..... About to spend some more money with you guys for a Rythmik F12 sub as I feel like it will be a big plus to what I have right now.

[JustaSheep]

First, the speakers will relax a bit and sound somewhat more cohesive as they break over 20 to 40 hours playing. This is similar to how lasagna tastes good the first evening, but better the second day as the flavors blend! I found that aiming the speakers directly at me helped when they were new, but as time went on, I liked them better with less toe-in.
....
If you have more in your budget, another great improvement to in-you-face sound from digital music was I bought a Schitt Audio Bifrost external DAC. (Two-channel only... no surround $350). You can really hear the difference from good electronics when you have a high-end speaker. As a matter of fact, the upgraded DAC made the Sierra-1's really sing in my small room with no brightness at all!


Very interesting. I did the same with the towers (NrT) on the toe-in. I didn't attribute it to a break-in period but very well could have been. For me, I was first getting acclimated to the new sound and then playing with the soundstage by reducing the toe-in. I couldn't be happier with the results.

I've heard Schitt products from a friend who uses headphones for his critical listening. He brought them to work for me to hear and it was quite nice.

[hearing specialist]

Love those Rythmics!!! The new Dolby TrueHD codec is simply jaw dropping with aggressive effects and a powerful presentation. It's in my opinion the strongest and best right now. When they created that their intention was to better DTS masterHD and be the first choice for post production. I dig it and I also am subscribed to your experiments, your speaking my language!!! :D

I wish we all lived closer!

[JustaSheep]

Love those Rythmics!!! The new Dolby TrueHD codec is simply jaw dropping with aggressive effects and a powerful presentation. It's in my opinion the strongest and best right now. When they created that their intention was to better DTS masterHD and be the first choice for post production. I dig it and I also am subscribed to your experiments, your speaking my language!!! :D


Hey Brian, I was hoping you'd chime in. Could you take a second to explain pre and post processing and AVR direct mode vs the presets, etc.?

I think that was part of the OP's question there:

From OP: "I have not used my Receiver's Audyssey option since the above changes. I wonder if I do it now if it'll do anything. I am still a bit confused as to the "DIRECT" option vs "STRAIGHT" option on my receiver. Direct means that sound is played exactly as it was recorded without having the receiver do anything to it ... meaning even if I do the Audyssey test, it will not apply when I play "DIRECT" ?"

[choirbass]

To the OP: as far as differences between Straight and Direct, the main differences will be that using Direct will bypass 'any' processing by the AVR (save for the DAC, which is only doing a conversion). Straight I believe is simply disabling of much additional processing save for a few modes, whatever they may be. With Direct you get the purest/cleanest most open and unhindered sound as a result of it having more analog 'interaction' with the AVR. As it's mainly just a direct path from DAC conversion to speaker amps and outputs. The downside to that, is you won't be allowed any of the AVR's room correction, additional processing features, etc.

IMO that is ideal, but YMMV.

edit: I just remembered that by using Direct, you're also eliminating the AVR's ability to process use of a sub, having no sub might be more of a deal breaker.

[phlw]

Very interesting. I did the same with the towers (NrT) on the toe-in. I didn't attribute it to a break-in period but very well could have been. For me, I was first getting acclimated to the new sound and then playing with the soundstage by reducing the toe-in. I couldn't be happier with the results.

I've heard Schitt products from a friend who uses headphones for his critical listening. He brought them to work for me to hear and it was quite nice.

To be honest, I am not 100% sure what I hear as break-in is not just me getting used to the speakers. But on the other hand, why would I think toe-out sounds better after a month or so of owning the Sierra-1's? Also, it may not just be the cones that break-in, but also the crossover components.

I just bought some NrT Towers two weeks ago, and they sound warmer (better!) to me now than when new. I have not had more than an pasing chance to analyze the speaker angle yet, but defiantly will now after what you said.

The Schitt Audio Bifrost DAC was a very nice addition to my system. It just makes CD's fun to listen to! It really removed the thinness from voices, and smoothed out the peaky, etched sound from digital music. Has got many good reviews on Audio Asylum.

[stephen]

Pianist,

Also consider getting a good amplifier. I personally use the Emotiva XPA-2, but it may be overkill...