Upgrading the crossover components

[roguemodel]

I was wondering if there is a note on the crossover components used in the Sierra? And, does the customer have the ability, like with Salk, to request the use of Sonicap, TNT or Mundorf caps in the crossover.

I am one, after being exposed to a double blind test of two loudspeakers...one using standard caps, resistors, and and inductor; and the other one using Mundorf caps, high end Erse tight tolerance resistors, and air core inductors; actually heard a difference in speaker music production quality. Now, i believe that much in Hi-Fi is voodoo magic designed to empty our pocket books. I have been lucky enough to hear the Salk hot-rodded Songtowers and the Ascend Sierra here in Omaha.

I have also auditioned speakers that ranged up to $10,000 here in Omaha and just keep coming back to the Salk's and the Sierra. Why should I spend $10,000 (my limit) on a "great" speaker when i can get the same sound from the Sierra. And, if I am going to spend $700 on the tweeter upgrade why not make sure the crossover components are the best? By the way, the difference I heard in the speakers dealt with a deeper tighter defined bass and higher detail and resolution throughout the frequency spectrum.

The beauty of a double blind is that confirmation of what you hear and believe is presented as a validation. Of course, believing is seeing, or, is it seeing is believing?

Thanks!

[GirgleMirt]

What did you mean 700$ for the tweeter upgrade? The NrT upgrade costs... ah ok I get it with the improved caps and all...


http://byrneweb.com/sunburn/blog/img/crossovers_small-2011-06-6-21-45.png
(image from http://byrneweb.com/sunburn/blog/2011/06/06/ascend-acoustics-sierra-1-nrt-review/ bigger version on the blog itself) NrT on the right.

High-performance metalized polypropylene capacitors in the direct signal path, these offer lower dissipation than the more common polyester based film capacitors.

Air-core inductors to reduce saturation effects combined with heavy gauge windings to reduce resistance and improve efficiency.

Low inductance resistors to reduce distortion and provide accurate transient information.

Linear impedance response for consistent performance regardless of amplification source.

Isolation mounting, whereby the crossover is attached to the cabinet using isolation feet, which reduces the transfer of resonances from the cabinet to the crossover components.

I think it would be silly to upgrade the NrT crossover... I mean, if you're going to buy a pair of Sierras for 900$, then spend 300$ for the NrT upgrade, then spend 400$ on improved caps and all, why not just spend 2000$ and get the towers? It'll cost you 300$ more, but the improvement IMHO should be superior from top (ok mid...) to bottom with the mid & extra bass woofer.

I think it comes down to bang for the buck, and although I've never done a blind test, I'd be skeptical that replacing 'ascend' quality crossover NrT parts with exotic would make a significant difference... Or even if there's an improvement, how significant is it vs the cost of the upgrade?

[curtis]

I think he means the RAAL upgrade on the Sierra Towers.

[GirgleMirt]

Aaaah! This makes much more sense :) I listened 2 days ago 3 hours non stop to the Sierra NrTs so I was sort of this state of mind! Wasn't the Sierra tower supposed to have a dedicated name? Horizon I think it was? Or it's only for the center?

But yeah, if you're getting the top of the line with upgraded tweeter, I can see this being the 'only' upgrade option and then another 400 isn't the end of the world... But I'd really be surprised if there was significant upgrade afterwards!

[roguemodel]

Yes, I was speaking of the RAAL tweeter on the Sierra Tower. I mean, if I have the funds to buy something more expensive, (which in this case does not mean better) then why not customize a great speaker ( Sierra) to get the last ounce of performance out of it.

[GirgleMirt]

one using standard caps, resistors, and and inductor; and the other one using Mundorf caps, high end Erse tight tolerance resistors, and air core inductors;
Btw, do you have more info on this? The ERSE resistors I can see on the site are all +/- 5%, and their caps are +/- 3%. The mundorf caps seem to be +/- 2%. I'm just wondering, for example, if the Mundorf cap would be a significant upgrade to an ERSE X-Pulse for example. I'm looking at Mundorf's site, seems like they have similar caps to ERSE (around 15/20$ for a 50/70 uF cap), but their higher end items, supreme gold/silver/whatever, seems ridiculously priced at like 100-200$ for a 10uF and they don't even have >20 uF caps... (http://www.mundorf.com/downloads/info-news/english/MUNDORF_Fidelity_Components_catalog.pdf) + Sierras already use air core inductors so nothing to upgrade there.

By "more info on this", I meant, what was compared to what? I'm guessing it was a sum of components, but the thing is it could have been a single component which made the difference, and the difference might have been from 'out of spec' component in the basic one... Anyhow, I don't doubt your experience, it's just the skeptic side of me has a difficult time accepting that 'exotic' crossover components would make a significant difference to a proficient crossover like one of Ascend's...

I mean crossover upgrades seemed to become popular when this other company sold speakers with borderline acceptable crossovers often with shady quality components, but if you start off with an NrT/Raal crossover and upgrade parts... Then it might not even be worthwhile to upgrade all components, some might not yield any performance upgrade or the upgrade might be minor vs price... Guess what I'm asking/saying is that true, a 'basic' crossover might benefit from an upgrade, but is Ascend's Sierra crossover 'basic'? I think not, I'd say it's probably closer to the ultra expensive components without going overboard on price than to a basic...

But yeah I don't know even kits now with prebuilt crossovers often the option to for example upgrade a cap/inductor... Is it just for $$$ or is there really a significant upgrade to be had? Anyhow, can't wait to read Ascend's response to this thread! :D

Interesting, http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html , don't know how much faith put in this as it was a sighted placebo prone test... Also weird that in the "why do caps sound different" section, he states that: "This effect has been known about for years as it plays a part in the impulse strength of capacitors. However, the effect has never been considered to be significant enough to affect a hi-fi system’s audio reproduction due to the low energy involved."... Doesn't seem to be a lack of caps threads and discussions, most people advocating better/worst caps. FWIW, finishing up a project and used mostly ERSE components :)

[davef]

I was wondering if there is a note on the crossover components used in the Sierra? And, does the customer have the ability, like with Salk, to request the use of Sonicap, TNT or Mundorf caps in the crossover.

Hi Rogue,

The Sierra-1, Sierra-1 NrT, and Sierra Tower crossovers already use 1% heavy gauge air-core inductors, non-inductive precision resistors (in the direct signal path) and 1% metalized polypropylene capacitors (the same material found in the best name-brand capacitors).

While I don't feel the expense is worthwhile, we would be happy to upgrade the caps to any name brand you desire. Of course, you would have to pay the additional costs for this upgrade.

Most of these "high-end" name brand capacitors are really no different than what we already use.

The advantage with our crossover components is that they are actually built for us specifically. You will notice that when purchasing resistors and/or capacitors, you only have very specific values to choose from (standard value parts), the same holds true with inductors unless you are going to wind your own.

For example, some of the caps we use on the Sierra-1 and Sierra Towers are 1% 6uF 100V MPP and a 1% 24uF 100VV MPP. Both of these values are non-standard and you would have to substitute with a value that is already quite a bit out of spec. It would be extremely difficult and entirely not practical to further improve the tolerances in our crossovers. It would require a ton of work and one would have to combine multiple components to achieve the specific value.

That said, as I have already mentioned, if you have specific requirements we would be happy to accommodate you...

Thanks again!

[phlw]

For what it is worth. I once upgraded the 6db/octave in-line tweeter cap in a very old Paradigm 7 speaker. It did open up the sound, and seemed to clean up the high frequencies. The original capacitor was a cheap 0.50 cents off-the-shelf bipolar cap. I replaced it with a $5.00 Clarity cap PX. Yes, heard quite an improvement, but also made a huge jump in quality. I suspect the caps Dave uses are at least the quality of the Clarity Cap I bought. I have never tried different higher-priced caps than the Clarity cap, but I'll bet the law of diminishing-returns really applies. Just my 2 cents worth :)