5x Sierra-1 Pre-Purchase Questions

[brocken]

I'd like to do a 5.1 set up with 5x Sierra-1's. I've been reading through the last 2 years of threads on Sierra-1's on this forum, and at AVS forums - I'm pretty convinced to give them a try, but have a few questions I haven't found to have been answered already:

1) How are the Sierra-1's for low-volume listening? What happens to the sound as volume goes down to 60db/50db/40db? How much vocal clarity and sonic detail are retained?

2) Can the Sierra-1's be damaged if used w/o subwoofer? One AVS Forum poster announced: "fun fact, its an expensive mistake when moving speakers and setting them up to leave the sierras set to large and than watch the dark knight :/" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=22001362&postcount=2550) However, many reviewers have written of positive experiences playing back music on Sierra-1's run full range w/o subwoofer. What are the risks of Sierra-1's w/o subwoofer?

3) Magnetic shielding - not needed for the 5.1 setup w/plasma HDTV I'm planning, but adding just $20 per speaker broadens future placement options. Does adding magnetic shielding affect performance in any way, and does it add much weight to the speaker?

4) Subwoofer - Plan A: try 5x Sierra-1's w/o for sub 2.0 & 5.1 music listening, and 5.1 movies/TV; Plan B: combine 5x Sierra-1's w/little HTIB 8" sub as a stopgap experiment; Plan C: add a real sub

A real sub is of course the best plan, but how much subwoofer for my environment? Well-articulated bass is more important to me than sheer bass volume. The room is 12' x 30' with the TV/hi-fi area in the front half of the room, in a creaky old wood-frame apartment building. I'm not a bass head - I like a music track's low frequency information to be reproduced faithfully, but not necessarily exaggerated. For movie/TV viewing, I do like environmental sound effects that are integral to the world of the show and immerse you in it, but I don't really watch explosions-explosions-explosions thrill-ride movies at home (a movie theater is much better equipped for enjoying such effects).

So I'm thinking even a 12" sub might be enough for my environment, and add another 12" if necessary if I get a more sound-isolated room in the future:
- Rythmik FV12 $550
- Epik Legend $500
- Outlaw LFM-1 Plus $550
- HSU VTF-2 MK4 $550
- SVS SB12-NSD $650
- Outlaw LFM-1 EX $650
- HSU VTF-3 MK4 $700
- Rythmik F12 $870
- Rythmik F12G $870
Rythmik subs are frequently recommended to match with Sierra-1's, although the port modes of the HSU VTF's are interesting. Curtis, as "cschang" on AVS Forums noted that while a HSU sub had worked pretty well with his Sierra-1's, it couldn't provide the seamless blending that a Rythmik does.

What difference between the Rythmik FV12 vs. F12 in my current room?

[brocken]

I started a thread at AVS Forums, "Sierra-1 Sale Exacerbates HTIB Upgrade Fever" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1412474):

I’ve been using a $450 HTIB for 6 months – it’s been a nice setup to learn on, but the more I learn, the more I want to upgrade. My original plan was to do a lot of listening at local dealers, maybe go to an audio trade show, and then do a 5.1 upgrade later this year for $1500-$2000...but the Sierra-1 sale makes me want to skip all the in between steps and UPGRADE NOW...

BUDGET
$2000 = 4x Ascend Sierra-1 + Sierra-1 center + 5x bass port plugs (save $200 during current sale)
(Original budget: $1000-$1500 for 5.0 speakers, $500 for subwoofer – Sierra-1’s were way out of budget, but sale pricing is tantalizing)

CURRENT ENVIRONMENT - please see attached diagram
12’ x 30’ living room/office in an apartment (can’t build a decoupled soundproof room, so bass can’t be intrusive to other apartments)

HDTV: 55” Panasonic GT30, Viera Connect Internet video streaming
HTPC: homebuilt w/HD Homerun & Hauppaugue TV tuners
BD Player: Oppo BDP-93 – BD, DVD, CD, SACD, DVD-A
HTIB: Yamaha YHT-595BL (Yamaha RX-V471 bundled w/small satellites + 8” subwoofer)
DVD Recorder: Toshiba RD-XS55, component video thru AVR to HDTV, optical audio to AVR
VCR: JVC HR-S9911U, S-video + RCA audio to DVD recorder, for digitizing old VHS tapes

7.7” x 18.9” shelf in TV stand for Center Channel Speaker

Listening Position 1: on couch in front of TV – critical listening & immersive movie/TV watching
Listening Position 2: at computer desk across room from TV – background music/TV
Other Listening: occasionally soft background music while doing chores in kitchen or down the hall in bedroom

REQUIREMENTS
90% Music: Rock/Pop/Alternative, Jazz, Classical/Orchestral – from MP3/FLAC, CD, SACD, DVD-A, FM Radio
Priority: clear vocals, good instrumental detail, well-articulated bass, holographic soundstage, good dynamics
Program Material Includes: Paul Weller, New Order, The Stone Roses, Everything but the Girl, Mark Knopfler, Gillian Welch, Trash Can Sinatras; Art Ensemble of Chicago, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Sun Ra; Anonymous 4, Beethoven symphonies, Handel Water Music, Mozart piano concertos, Philip Glass

10% Movies/TV: Documentaries, Comedies, Science/Nature, Westerns, Police Procedurals, Science Fiction – from BD, DVD, HTPC recordings from TV tuners, Internet video streaming
Priority: clear dialogue, even with volume turned down at night
Program Material Includes: A Sunday in the Country, Amadeus, Blade Runner, Cave of Forgotten Dreams 3D, Community, Diner, Frontline, Futurama, Law & Order, Once Upon a Time in the West, Planet Earth (BBC), Saturday Night Live, The Lord of the Rings EE, The Princess Bride

ASCEND SIERRA-1
- read through 2 years of Sierra-1 threads on the Ascend website forums, plus some threads here at AVS, and various reviews on the internet – generally regarded as a very good to great speaker, and well worth its’ price, even when not on sale
- reportedly very non-fatiguing & neutral, detailed & revealing, with cohesive sound and good imaging
- bass goes low enough to often forgo subwoofer support – might be possible to hold off on subwoofer upgrade
- should just about fit into my TV stand’s 7.7” x 18.9” center channel shelf
- RX-V471 from HTIB should have enough power to drive Sierra-1’s
- also getting bass port plug kits to allow more options for fine-tuning sound
- 30-day trial means I would only be out ~$200 in shipping costs if I decide to return the Sierra-1’s
- 2-way bookshelf for center channel avoids MTM design issues
- 5 matched surrounds for best 5.1 music listening, and fully-capable surrounds should be able to pump more & fuller range sound to desk/work area and rest of apartment
- first try Sierra-1’s without subwoofer, or might be able to use with HTIB 8” subwoofer for a while
- Sierra-1’s should definitely be a significant upgrade from my small HTIB speakers, but is it possible to upgrade too much? Would it be better to upgrade in smaller increments, over a couple of years? For example, first get $500 of SuperZeroes, then $1000 of KEF’s, then $1500 of PSB’s or Paradigms – instead of jumping immediately to $2000 of Sierra-1’s?

[hearing specialist]

I'll take a stab here:

1. Low level/volume listening can be assisted by your receiver's low level program. I'm hoping you will be driving these with a quality receiver. All decent receiver's will have a low level/nitetime/low volume program that will give you all your wanting at specified volume readings. Zero loss of vocal listening.
2. Any great speaker can be destroyed while running "Large" or full range with huge LFE's from todays blue rays. Run the Sierra's in a way to achieve pure fidelity, 60hz or 80hz cross'd thru your receiver.
3. Shielding won't hurt or add any side effects to the purity engineered into the Sierra's.
4. A Rythmic sub and its servo driven technology will give you all you could ever want with pure seamless integration. Plus if your into gobs of music the servo driven Rythmic will give you accurate sound and you will thank yourself each and every time you listen. Rythmic all the way!!!

If your going to keep your Yamaha receiver I would use the "Flat" setting within YPAO when setting it up. It will do an awesome job with the time delay and setup. It may set them to "Large" and that may be fine depending on the volume levels your wanting. I still would experiment with setting them to "Small" and a crossover at 40hz. Let a Rythmic sub run 40hz and down to aid in removing any boominess based on the dimensions of your room and layout.

Brian in Bakersfield...

[brocken]

Thanks, Brian - you SoCal folks are so lucky to be within a few hours' drive from Ascend!

1. The RX-V471 has dynamic range confinement options, but nothing as sophisticated as Audyssey Dynamic EQ. I can use headphones if I really need to hear dialogue at night and not disturb people sleeping. Just curious.

2. OK, it seems like music on Sierra-1's w/o sub would be OK. I would definitely always run a sub for movies/TV, and use Direct mode for 2.0 music listening.

3. Great, then might as well get shielding as it's cheap and doesn't hurt.

4. Rythmik sounds like to way to go w/Ascend speakers. The only question now is: what would the F12 get me that the FV12 doesn't?

[hearing specialist]

easy...F12 for more music listening. FV12 because of its tuning is geared for more HT use vs. music. Typically for more music listening a sealed sub would be better. The enclosures flat response is ideal vs. a more aggressive tuned enclosure to focus more on reproducing LFE's in movies. Glad to have helped and anytime! Are you purchasing thru Ascend site?

[brocken]

Yes, I was considering getting the FV12 along with the Sierra-1's from Ascend. But if it's going to be the F12, I might hold off on a sub to see if Rythmik has any discounts in the next few months.

Is there any difference purchasing from Ascend vs direct from Rythmik?

[Sam1000]

Yes, I was considering getting the FV12 along with the Sierra-1's from Ascend. But if it's going to be the F12, I might hold off on a sub to see if Rythmik has any discounts in the next few months.

Is there any difference purchasing from Ascend vs direct from Rythmik?

You might get a package discount if you buy from Ascend.

[hearing specialist]

2nd that, purchase from Ascend directly to see what can be done to make your purchase even sweeter. Ascend will more than take care of its loyal following! :D


Brian in Bakersfield...

[brocken]

The Ascend sub discount is 5%, which brings the F12 down to $887.30 shipped - AHH, that's like $900!!! A thousand dollars for a subwoofer???

$600 shipped I'm comfortable with, and from what I've been reading from Sierra-1 owners, that level of sub can be pretty good.

My quandary is: what does the extra $300 get me?

(This must seem silly to the people who budget for dual $2000 subwoofers, but their learning curves are far ahead of me. Also, I think the sound reinforcement in their rooms is several levels above mine.)

[curtis]

The Ascend sub discount is 5%, which brings the F12 down to $887.30 shipped - AHH, that's like $900!!! A thousand dollars for a subwoofer???

$600 shipped I'm comfortable with, and from what I've been reading from Sierra-1 owners, that level of sub can be pretty good.

My quandary is: what does the extra $300 get me?

(This must seem silly to the people who budget for dual $2000 subwoofers, but their learning curves are far ahead of me. Also, I think the sound reinforcement in their rooms is several levels above mine.)
It is all about sound quality.

Tough to understand with subwoofers until you compare them in the same room.

[hearing specialist]

You would never need to replace or upgrade that unit ever. If anything in the future you would add a 2nd one if space permits but with that level of sound quality it is just that great of a product. The level of servo circuit it uses is outstanding and fantastic, its just a awesome unit. Option #2 then should be what pricing Dave can provide on the FV12 unit. If its going to be tight or nothing at all go with the FV12 from Dave. More control of the subs gain feature may be needed to control room acoustics but completely easy to manage. With the FV12 you will tilt your music vs. movie percentage...


Brian in Bakersfield...

[curtis]

The FV12 is Rythmik's entry level sub, and very good one.

It is a ported sub. At its port tuning, about 20hz, it will capable of more output than the sealed F12. This is desirable if your room is a bit larger than the F12 can handle at that frequency. Below that frequency, the output of the FV12 will fade quickly, whereas the F12 will be more gradual. The F12 will have better overall sounds quality.

[kinggimp82]

I own Sierras and I have a hsu VTF-3 MK4 paired with them. I am more than happy with that combo. I don't find it lacking in sound quality. I have it in a room that is 24 ft by 24 ft with an 11 ft vaulted ceiling. Seeing as your room is smaller I think you would be fine was a VTF-2 MK4. The VTF-2 MK4 sounds like the VTF-3 MK4 but with less output. That's my 2 cents.

[curtis]

I own Sierras and I have a hsu VTF-3 MK4 paired with them. I am more than happy with that combo. I don't find it lacking in sound quality. I have it in a room that is 24 ft by 24 ft with an 11 ft vaulted ceiling. Seeing as your room is smaller I think you would be fine was a VTF-2 MK4. The VTF-2 MK4 sounds like the VTF-3 MK4 but with less output. That's my 2 cents.

Also nice ported subwoofers.

[brocken]

Ascend has run out of FV12's, so it's Rythmik F12 vs. HSU VTF-2 MK4.

Curtis, if I remember correctly, you mentioned at AVS that you went from a HSU sub to Rythmik and the blending was better - any other differences?

[curtis]

Ascend has run out of FV12's, so it's Rythmik F12 vs. HSU VTF-2 MK4.

Curtis, if I remember correctly, you mentioned at AVS that you went from a HSU sub to Rythmik and the blending was better w/Sierra-1's - any other differences?
In my comparison, my Rythmik was cleaner and more articulate than my Hsu VTF-3mk3, and a friend's VTF-3mk2....both in their respective rooms. This is not to say the Hsus were lacking.

[hearing specialist]

Curtis, what did you do with your Hsu? I can't wait to hear their stuff again at the show.

[curtis]

Curtis, what did you do with your Hsu? I can't wait to hear their stuff again at the show.
It's gone. My Parents have an older VTF-3 with their classic Ascend setup, and my brother has a STF-2.

I hope Hsu has something new at the show. There hasnt been anything really new in a long while.

[brocken]

You would never need to replace or upgrade that unit ever. If anything in the future you would add a 2nd one if space permits but with that level of sound quality it is just that great of a product. The level of servo circuit it uses is outstanding and fantastic, its just a awesome unit. Option #2 then should be what pricing Dave can provide on the FV12 unit. If its going to be tight or nothing at all go with the FV12 from Dave. More control of the subs gain feature may be needed to control room acoustics but completely easy to manage. With the FV12 you will tilt your music vs. movie percentage...


Thanks Brian, that really sets the Rythmik F12 as the most optimal sub on my list (and coincidentally the most expensive...).


The FV12 is Rythmik's entry level sub, and very good one.

It is a ported sub. At its port tuning, about 20hz, it will capable of more output than the sealed F12. This is desirable if your room is a bit larger than the F12 can handle at that frequency. Below that frequency, the output of the FV12 will fade quickly, whereas the F12 will be more gradual. The F12 will have better overall sounds quality.

Thanks Curtis, a great comparison and exactly what I haven't been able to find before. For me now, quality over power, and as Brian suggested, adding another F12 would address the issue of a larger room.


I own Sierras and I have a hsu VTF-3 MK4 paired with them. I am more than happy with that combo. I don't find it lacking in sound quality. I have it in a room that is 24 ft by 24 ft with an 11 ft vaulted ceiling. Seeing as your room is smaller I think you would be fine was a VTF-2 MK4. The VTF-2 MK4 sounds like the VTF-3 MK4 but with less output. That's my 2 cents.

Thanks, that narrowed my HSU choice down to the VTF-2 MK4.


In my comparison, my Rythmik was cleaner and more articulate than my Hsu VTF-3mk3, and a friend's VTF-3mk2....both in their respective rooms. This is not to say the Hsus were lacking.

Thank you, great information - now I have to digest it and evaluate the sonic differences vs cost delta.

[Sam1000]

The FV12 is Rythmik's entry level sub, and very good one.

It is a ported sub. At its port tuning, about 20hz, it will capable of more output than the sealed F12. This is desirable if your room is a bit larger than the F12 can handle at that frequency. Below that frequency, the output of the FV12 will fade quickly, whereas the F12 will be more gradual. The F12 will have better overall sounds quality.

+1 with Rythmik

Hsu's are incredible value for money and I have recommended it to friends. Since your preferences is 5.1 music and you are buying Sierra , I would highly recommended one of Rythmik's sealed subwoofer.

[DougMac]

Here's something you might want to consider to give you some budget relief. Instead of using Sierra's all around, use Sierra as L/C/R and use either CBM-170 or even HTM-200's as your surrounds. I you use the 200's you'll save $500 and if you use the 170's, you'll save $450. It will probably be less because of the sale. Check with Ascend.

I have 340's up front, with 170's as side surrounds and 200's as rear surrounds. All Ascends are voiced to play well together. The 170's and 200's are really great speakers!

I think you'd get more sonic goodness by doing this and getting a Rhythmic F-12 than by going Sierras all around. The next big thing you need to do is upgrade your receiver. While yours is OK, it's an entry level unit.

[brocken]

Thanks, everyone.

Rythmik is the clear SQ leader - now, given that, F15 or F12?

There was an AVS post where someone wrote that might as well go $100 more from the F12 to F15 - bass is just as tight & articulated, and the extra 3db/5db output is there if you want it, and can always be turned down. F15 is only 10lbs heavier and 2" taller/wider/deeper, so it's not really that much bigger.

Hmm...in for a penny...

[hearing specialist]

...if somethings worth doin...its worth doin right:D

f15 it is then, do you need it gift wrapped?

[brocken]

Here's something you might want to consider to give you some budget relief. Instead of using Sierra's all around, use Sierra as L/C/R and use either CBM-170 or even HTM-200's as your surrounds. I you use the 200's you'll save $500 and if you use the 170's, you'll save $450. It will probably be less because of the sale. Check with Ascend.

I have 340's up front, with 170's as side surrounds and 200's as rear surrounds. All Ascends are voiced to play well together. The 170's and 200's are really great speakers!

I think you'd get more sonic goodness by doing this and getting a Rhythmic F-12 than by going Sierras all around. The next big thing you need to do is upgrade your receiver. While yours is OK, it's an entry level unit.

Thanks for the suggestions, and mixed 5.0 speakers would be fine for HT and most music, but people's reports of how well 5x Sierra-1's work for music mastered for multi-channel playback have convinced me to go for matched 5.0.

RX-V471 should give me all the power I need, although a couple of extra features would be nice:
- completely dim front-panel display
- input signal channel indicators on front-panel display
- Audyssey MultEQ XT
- Audyssey Dynamic EQ
- 2-channel listening mode, configurable independent of 5.1 settings
- 7.2 option
- Zone 2 option
- component video to HDMI conversion & upscaling
- web GUI control of receiver, including configuration save to PC
- onscreen GUI available in 3D
- pre-outs to external amplifier
Denon's AVR-3312ci is a good candidate, but I'm focusing on the speakers + subwoofer upgrade for now.

[brocken]

Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences and thoughts on Sierra-1's in my environment.

I ordered 5x Sierra-1's w/Q-Plugs - they have been shipped and should arrive soon. I will spend the next few days preparing my ears.

Dave sent me an e-mail and his view is that F12 wouldn't be sufficient for my room, so I have to decide between waiting for FV12 to come back in stock or going with F15 now. But first priority will be setting up the Sierra-1's.

[DougMac]

Please let us know what you think once you have them set up. I'm a skeptic regarding speaker break in, but my 340's seemed to come alive after a week of regular playing. I would have chalked it up to my imagination, but my son heard them when I first unpacked them then came over 10 days later and heard them again. Without me saying anything, he said: "What did you do? The speakers sound so much better now than when I first heard them!"

I'm sitting here chuckling at the various images that popped into my head when you said you'll spend the next few days preparing your ears for your new speakers. :p Will you wash them with a special soap? Wear earmuffs?

[brocken]

Nothing fancy, I'm just going to listen closely to my most familiar music with the existing HTIB speakers, although someone did post that having his ears cleaned with a water jet at the ear doctor's really opened up his ears.:D

[Blutarsky]

This is used in many doctor's offices for ear cleaning. I use mine a couple of times a year. Works great! Amazon has it too.

http://www.elephant-ear-washer.com/

[brocken]

Interesting - Amazon.com Marketplace has the Elephant Washer for $28.55 (http://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Easy-EW-Elephant-Washer/dp/B005M2B5P0) but looks like you need 1 hand to hold the nozzle to your ear and another hand to squeeze the trigger.

What about the Rhino Washer for $24.30? (http://www.amazon.com/Washer-Bottle-System-Doctor-Easy/dp/B005M2HSQK) One reviewer wrote that it's easy to use one-handed.

[Blutarsky]

Seems like they would both work. Save you a trip to the Doc. If you have cerumen plugs, a little peroxide, or olive oil in the ear a day or so before the washing will help dislodge it. The usual caveats about seeing a doctor if you have pain, or drainage apply. Use the earwasher gently. Be patient.