Suggestion for a new Ascend Speaker

[j0nnyfive]

Note: This first post has been edited pretty heavily. Don't be confused if some of the following posts don't seem to make much sense. They do! It's just that the original post they responded to is now different.


Hello my fellow Ascendites!

It's been a while since I've posted last but I've been thoroughly enjoying my Ascend speakers! I mention them to pretty much everyone, and everybody loves them. Good sound all around! I've had the Sierra-1 Nrt bookshelves, the Sierra towers, and right now I have the CMT-340se because I traded with my dad for some money and some headphones. lol

One thing I can say about these speakers is that they ALL sound very good. I've just been playing and experimenting. This hobby is addicting. Okay, to the point...

I live in a small apartment where space (and bass and spl) is limited. I think of the 3 speakers I've had, the Sierra-1 Nrt bookshelf was my personal favorite because of it's sound and overall versatility, ease of placement, and smallness. After experimenting, I think there is a need for another bookshelf speaker from Ascend. Something between the CMT-340se and CBM-170se.



I present to you the CBM-170 xe:


(NOTE: The lists below are not arranged by priority or any particular order.)


Construction: A 2-way bookshelf speaker with 1 tweeter and 1 woofer, front-ported or sealed.

Response: 72hz - 22khz (or whatever would integrate best with subs at 80hz.)

Sensitivity: 91-93db.

Impedance: 8 Ohm (AVR-friendly)

Overall sound quality: On par with CBM-170 se, only more efficient with less bass.

Price: $200-$250 per speaker. Or, if possible, identical to CBM-170se!




WHY:

I'm a fan of versatility. There are some things that I wish my current speakers (CMT-340)
could do.

1. I wish they were a shorter 2-way so I could fit a vertically oriented center channel beneath my projection screen. (I'm a huge fan of bookshelf speakers now after trying out both kinds.)

2. I love headroom. It's a home theater thing. MOAR please! =)

3. I only need the bass of the speaker to go low enough to cross at 80hz to my sub.

4. I wish they were front-ported or sealed so I could put them flush with the wall, and possibly do this for an AT screen in the future. This would also allow them to be against the walls as surrounds all around the room.

5. I wish they had a nicer finish on them (of course I had the option. My fault!)




WHO SHOULD BUY THESE?:


1. Average Joes on average incomes who want a nice home theater that sounds great with music, with emphasis on headroom rather than bass extension.

2. People living in a small apartment who need to put the speakers against the wall. Also, people who live in an apartment who plan on buying a house later, but don't know how long it will be. (Wall-mounting for small rooms, plus overhead for large rooms!)

3. People who have large living rooms that need to produce higher SPL for the room.

4. People who want 5 or more identical speakers all around them for both theater and/or music listening.

5. People who want to mount 3 speakers flush to the wall behind their new AT screen. They wouldn't want to hide their nice Sierra towers back there! Stick these back there instead!

6. People who want 3 identical speakers above or below their view screens, and who want all 3 speakers oriented the same way. (Their speakers could be on the wall now along with their new plasma!)

7. People who want more efficient speakers for their home theaters, but don't like the thought of jumping into horns-ville. They want 91-93db of headroom and don't need 95-100db. But they also don't want to be stuck at 85-90db either.

8. People who like subs with their music.

9. People who want the headroom of towers but don't like tower speakers for whatever reason. Don't want the size. Don't like 3-way speakers. Whatever.

10. People who don't want a separate music and home theater setup. They want their music and HT to be the same system from the same speakers with qualities (headroom and SQ) needed for both HT and music enjoyment.

11. Fans of the Ascend sound! :)

For my current budget, and for what I love about movies and music, this would be my perfect speaker!

Thanks for the good sound Dave!

[j0nnyfive]

...

[j0nnyfive]

Just some example pics of what I'm talking about...

This is the "3 across the front without the AT screen" concept. I found these pics randomly searching. I hope the original authors don't mind. ?

http://www.socalht.com/jeff/front.jpg

and...

http://i42.tinypic.com/2uq23gh.jpg

and...

http://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/56204_full.jpg


and 2 or 4 more as surrounds! :) And if you get an AT screen in the future, you can just plop em back 'err!

[Dark Ranger]

Hi j0nnyfive,

Interesting post here. Dave is always willing to listen to customer feedback and suggestions. I also know that Dave likes to focus on quality over quantity. From what I've seen, Dave offers a product if he believes 1) a market demand exists, 2) he can offer the product at a better price than competitors, and 3) he can manufacture the product at better quality than competitors. Of course, these are not the only determining factors for R&D, but Ascend's current lineup provides a quality loudspeaker for just about any application.

With that said, you listed several key areas that your suggested loudspeaker might address. Since the lists in your first two posts differ in ranking, how would you reorder them in terms of your own preference (e.g. sound quality over MSRP, or efficiency over size)?

If I haven't misunderstood you, you're looking for a Sierra-1 sized (or smaller) bamboo enclosure that provides a high sensitivity design in a sealed enclosure and is capable of being driven by modest AVRs. In addition, the speaker must be an aesthetically pleasing two-way design with flexible placement options.

For what it's worth, the CMT-340 SE is already considered the "in between" product for the CBM-170 SE and the Sierra-1, although the size difference between these models is readily apparent.

Regarding sensitivity, the CBM-170 SE is rated around 91 dB (in room) and the NrT Towers/CMT-340 SE are rated around 92 dB (in room). This is quite respectable for both HT and music. To do much better than this (e.g. 95 dB+) will require horns, exotic single-driver units, or other technologies, and they will have a noticeably different sonic signature than Ascend loudspeakers. You also run into a size and price issue with the high-efficiency designs.

Dave or Curtis can correct me if I'm wrong, but the price of the CBM-170 SE is partially due to the MDF enclosure. If the 170 had a custom bamboo enclosure and a Sierra-1 type finish, it wouldn't surprise me if the MSRP would rise to around $500, and that's before any driver/crossover upgrades. With the component upgrades, you're getting pretty close to Sierra territory price-wise.

The first image you posted shows the CBM-170 SE speakers across the front, and the last two pictures show the Elemental Designs/Swan W6-6TC. The W6-6TC cabinet is actually larger than the Sierra-1 cabinet. Both are ported enclosures, although the W6-6TC would be better suited for back-to-back wall mounting due to front porting. Ascend's only sealed loudspeaker (at the moment) is the HTM-200 SE, which actually addresses many of your preferences:

- low cost
- close-wall mounting options and flexible placement
- small size
- sealed design
- integration with sub with 80 Hz crossover

If I remember correctly, one can order a custom finish on any loudspeaker, even the 170/200 models. Of course, there is a fee for this, but the aesthetics can be addressed this way.



My $0.02. :)

[curtis]

The bamboo cabinet would be a significant cost increase....don't know how much though.

[j0nnyfive]

Hey Dark Ranger!

(.... as he steps up onto the mountain with his staff in hand....)

Words to think about. Thanks for the response! Yeah, I've been thinking about the other speakers as well. The HTM-200se IS sealed, but it also looks to be designed to be smaller than the bookshelfs... to fit in a space that not even the bookshelves can go. It seems that maybe because it is designed to be this small, it gives up sensitivity (87db). It does seem to extend down to the right spot (72hz), but again, it is a 3-driver design, and very small. Which has value! Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that any of the current speakers in the lineup can be replaced. I think they all have good purpose. (inhale)

Still, I can't help but think there is another market to hit. And, maybe this market is TOO "niche" for this to be marketable. I'm hoping not. :) But I'm starting to see an online trend of people (including myself) wanting more theater-like speakers. (Chase, ED, JTR, Seaton, etc). With Chase, you've got the 90x90 horn who's (intended) purpose, it seems, is to offer you the flexibility to turn the speaker on it's side as well as orient it vertically. With JTR, you have the ability to turn the speakers either vertically or horizontally as well due to coaxial driver design. Now, I can't speak to the sound quality of these speakers as I've never heard them. But, I'd be willing to put my money on Ascend in the SQ department. Thus, my request. ;) (inhale)

I'm not asking for horns or coaxes, but just pointing out that they recognize that their audience places importance on flexibility of placement, especially for the center channel. (And notice how they don't offer a speaker explicitly called "center channel.") I think they may be going for the "identicals-all-around" thing as well.

I didn't order my list in terms of priority. It was more of a list of definites. :o As in, the speaker needs to meet all these criteria. (maybe not the bamboo)

... oh Hi Curtis! lol ....

In my small, single-bedroom apartment, I had the Sierra-1 speakers standing in my living room floor away from the wall, but you wouldn't believe just how much room those speakers took up! I knew they needed to be away from the wall, and I was also afraid that if too close to a wall, the bass would disturb my neighbors above me. But I'm telling ya, when I scoot those speakers against the wall, my living room seemed a LOT bigger. I wished I could have kept them there (and perhaps I could have. I didn't use a sub at the time). But anyway, the Sierra isn't designed for "against the wall" placement, and for good reason! (I did use the port plugs as well. Great idea btw!)

Now, the trend I see with the product line is this: The more expensive we get, the more bass you get. HTM(72hz)->CBM(58hz)->CMT(48hz)->Sierra-1(44hz)->Sierra Tower(41hz). In my (too simple) understanding of the laws of conservation of speaker-building :D, the more bass you want, the more sensitivity you lose as size remains constant.

When I took the Sierra-1 bookshelf over to my Dad's house and set them up in their pretty large living room with high ceiling, we were watching a movie at like... -8 on the AVR's volume control. Now, it sounded very high quality, but we both kinda got the feeling that headroom was at a premium. :o

Back up to that trend chart.... what if.... you had a fork in the road to one different speaker that... instead of reaching down lower for more bass, it stays at around 70hz and reaches up higher for more SPL headroom. The CMT-340 does go a little higher, but it also reaches down lower as well. And, the shape of the box is a game-changer IMO, and you're going toward the "more than 2 drivers" direction that some (crazy) people don't care for. In my mind, once you go more than 2 drivers, you've left the bookshelf building and are at the stoplight at the edge of the parking lot. :D Also, I lose that (deal-breaking) ability to place 3 identical fronts with same orientation. When you orient 3 towers that way, not only is life more difficult on you, it just looks WRONG. lol (big inhale)


I would like to have the sealed (or front ported) (or even rear ported if it won't matter!) quality of the HTM-200se and the bass extension of the HTM-200se, with the size of the Sierra (or even slightly larger), but with focus on SQ and headroom rather than SQ and bass. (I think the extension would have to be considered very carefully. What would be the very highest you could go and still have great 80hz integration? Not sure.)


As far as sensitivity goes... what about 92db anechoic? 91db? Possible? Could a slightly larger mid/woofer be put in there?

Another way of describing this would be a miniature high frequency section of a theater sound system, with as much headroom as possible while keeping the Ascend quality sound (no horn!). :D I could see these being paired with the nice Rythmik subs such as the F15HP or E15.

To wrap up my sermon on the mount, my vision of these speakers' ideal usage would be a 5 or 7 channel "identicals-all-around" setup (because of size and cost) for the HT lover, multichannel music lover, and 2-way bookshelf purist with one or more subs all around and either the front 3 just behind an AT screen or directly below or above a TV or projection screen, in everything from the small apartment (wall-placement) to the very large room (headroom), to meet the wife's approval (finish options, bookshelf), to the HT purists' theater (orientation). On other forums, one common concern I'm seeing is... "yeah, I WANT speakers for my HT, and yeah, I want the sensitivity, but how much SQ would I be losing switching from my 85db dome tweeters?" I'm saying don't switch, get the 91-92db from Ascend and keep your beautifully nuanced SQ! :cool:

Sorry for rambling! Just trying to be as descriptive and poetic as possible. lol I think this speaker would sell because it seems to kill a lot of birds with one stone, but that's just thinking and not market testing. and just begging Santa Dave. lol

Yes, there are other speakers like this out there, but they're not Ascend.

Thanks!

[j0nnyfive]

I can hear it now. 93db sensitivity. As loud as the Sierra Tower with 1/2 the power. I wouldn't ask for anything more than 93db. :) Not only because I know we're going into exotic territory, but because it sounds so cool to say "As loud as the Sierra Tower with only half the power!"

I've been looking around. Seems that dome speakers hang around 85-90 while horns hang around 95-100. I think if you could hit that 93 spot you'd be rockin'. :D

[curtis]

The problem is you will not get the same kind of sound quality if you aim for high efficiency/output unless you are willing to spend more money....like you pretty much stated.

People are asking for this high output without really understanding their listening levels.

BTW...I recently heard one of the speakers you mentioned. It doesn't sound anything like an Ascend. In fact, the dialogue was pretty bad...I was embarrassed. There could have been a lot of factors, but the bottomline....I would never have that in my room.

[j0nnyfive]

If it's alright, I'm going to edit my posts to condense and combine them and get rid of incoherent babbling and redundancy. lol

I bet you're right Curtis! I'm sure they didn't sound like an Ascend. Which is why I'm here. :D Hmm... let me edit my posts...


.. Okay. I edited the first post, and deleted the second post. Just wanted to tidy up my thoughts.

[j0nnyfive]

Jacob!,

I'm sorry I didn't answer your questions about priorities! I never thought about it in terms of priority, but I see how that could help you out in understanding what I'm after. (I'm a little slow at times.)

I would prioritize size over efficiency. I would say you could take the dimensions of the Sierra-1, and add 1 inch on height, width, and depth if you needed to.

I also like bookshelf speakers because if you tire of them in the front, you can recycle them as surrounds. :) Can't do this with towers, practically anyway. I'm thinking versatility as my theme here.

In terms of MSRP, I was thinking maybe just a bit more expensive than the CBM-170se, but there may be others that want higher-end versions. I just don't know. But I would definitely start between the CBM-170 and CMT-340 price. Heck, I may be willing to even pay the CMT price cuz I really want speakers like this.

[davef]

Hi j0nnyfive,

Aren't you already describing our CBM-170SE? I am really not too sure of what more you are after. There is absolutely no advantage in having a 93dB CBM-170SE as compared to a 90dB CBM-170SE. Wattage is cheap and simple whereas the sacrifices we would have to make in the design of the speaker you describe would result in a loudspeaker that would not offer as good of performance as the CBM-170SE.

There is a reason this theoretical speaker is not popular...

For example, you want a dome tweeter and you also want a 2-driver 2-way design. The 170SE is already at the cusp of max efficiency for a 2 driver dome tweeter design. To increase efficiency further, the moving mass of the dome tweeter would have to be decreased significantly; this would result in moving the resonance frequency higher thus requiring a higher crossover point. Since you don't want dual woofers, it would be nearly impossible to reach 93dB anechoic with a 6 1/2" woofer so the woofer cone diameter would have to be increased. As you increase woofer diameter, you decrease the usable piston range of the woofer and since we need a high crossover point to our theoretical tweeter, we would be crossing the woofer over at a point that is out of its piston range and thus the frequencies being produced by the woofer would be far too directional (beaming) while the frequencies being produced by the tweeter at or near crossover would be non-directional. This speaker will have a poor power response, uneven off-axis response and overall poor coherency.

In addition, while we would have theoretically increased efficiency -- we would not have increased power handling for the tweeter so while the speaker would use less power to reach a given volume level, it would not provide greater output. In fact, I would predict that power handling would be reduced compared to our 170SE because the new high-efficiency tweeter would have less voice coil windings and thinner wire and would suffer from dynamic compression even sooner. In essence, all we have accomplished is a speaker with even less dynamic range than our CBM-170SE, poor off-axis response and a speaker I personally would not want to listen to much music with...

Doesn't it make much more sense to simply double the power you are sending the 170SE?

The correct way to design such a speaker would be to increase efficiency to the point where it could make a significant difference -- say +6dB. To keep a reasonable crossover frequency to the minimum 8" high-efficiency woofer, the tweeter would require a large waveguide to "boost" the low frequencies of the tweeter. To offer the power handling required to support +20dB dynamic range in a 96dB efficient speaker, a compression tweeter or multiple domes would be required.


I can hear it now. 93db sensitivity. As loud as the Sierra Tower with 1/2 the power. I wouldn't ask for anything more than 93db. Not only because I know we're going into exotic territory, but because it sounds so cool to say "As loud as the Sierra Tower with only half the power!"


I think you might be confusing sensitivity with power handling or maximum output. The two are not related... There is simply no possible way that your theoretical 2-way speaker will play as loudly as the Sierra Tower. Sure, at 1 meter back at 90dB, the theoretical speaker will require 1/2 the power as the Sierra Tower will, but what happens when we hit a +20dB peak? The Sierra Tower will reproduce it accurately provided your amp/receiver has about 100watts of power -- while this theoretical loudspeaker, even with the higher sensitivity, will exhibit a tremendous amount of compression or quite possibly suffer serious damage.


Now, the trend I see with the product line is this: The more expensive we get, the more bass you get. HTM(72hz)->CBM(58hz)->CMT(48hz)->Sierra-1(44hz)->Sierra Tower(41hz). In my (too simple) understanding of the laws of conservation of speaker-building , the more bass you want, the more sensitivity you lose as size remains constant.

While a simple evaluation of speaker specifications might lead one to believe this is the case, as you step through our product line, besides better overall performance, you get:

1. Higher performance tweeters: HTM/CBM same --> 340SE tweeter --> Sierra-1 tweeter --> NrT --> RAAL Ribbon

2. Significantly better cabinet resonance control and damping. MDF --> Bamboo

3. Better crossover parts HTM/CBM/340 polyester film in signal paths --> Sierra-1/Sierra Tower metalized polypropylene throughout


Hope my post makes sense :)

[j0nnyfive]

Hey Dave!

I was wondering when you were going to step in with the technical info! :D

Thank you for your response btw!

I should have mentioned higher power handling as well. lol I'm aware of this, but I neglected to mention it. I was afraid you were going to say it wouldn't work, but I thought I'd try anyway. :) And I was afraid the CBM was already at it's peak efficiency because you seem to have pretty dynamic speakers to begin with. I wasn't sure if it could be taken higher or not, because I'm just learning about this stuff. I was taking a leap of faith with the very simplistic notion of "less bass, more efficient" and seeing where that could go. Well.... phooey! lol I knew it couldn't be that simple!

Well, I believe you've just confirmed what I was suspecting. I'm gonna have to get 2 systems now. :D One loud w/ horn, and one hifi with domes. The gears are 'a turnin'. I think I'm possibly seeing more Sierra-1 Nrts in my future! lol

Thanks everybody!


I'm just editing this to say thanks Dave, again. I really like reading your technical posts because they are very informative without being over my head. I'm thinking about what you've said. Do you know of any good resources where I could learn more about building speakers and how they work? Maybe something that doesn't have too much calculus? I've been slowly learning by reading online but where would you suggest a newbie start? Probably going to order a Pi speaker soon just to get some experience with hands on assembly. Any good books you recommend? Thanks again.

[Mag_Neato]

jOnnyfive,
There are many DIY forums you can join where plenty of info is shared.
Try AVS for starters. The guys on those forums are usually pretty helpful with all aspects of speaker design/building.

[j0nnyfive]

Thanks Magneto! :)


I do read the forums. The only issue I have with forums sometimes is that the signal to noise ratio can be a little discouraging to say the least. So much inaccurate info on so many of those boards it's scandalous. Just wondering what one successful speaker maker would say to a young apprentice. I hope he would say.... the force... is stroooooong.... with youuuuuuu....

Ah! I just remembered something. Dave mentioned that the CBM-170se already did pretty much what I'm after. That made me curious because I just assumed you shouldn't really wall mount a rear-ported speaker. Is there something I'm not considering? Would it sound okay wall-mounted? See, I just don't know this stuff. Just now, I read some forum advice to another where a person said "get the HTM-200 because the CBM-170 is rear ported and not suited for wall-mounting." I'm paraphrasing. But...

For a newbie, forums are both a blessing and a disease. You've got to have an amazingly keen bs-detector or just a lot of patience to learn what you want to learn. Ugh...

[curtis]

The CBM-170 needs about 3" of clearance from a wall, the HTM-200 can be mounted directly on the wall.

How loud do you listen to material?

[Dark Ranger]

Jacob!,

I'm sorry I didn't answer your questions about priorities! I never thought about it in terms of priority, but I see how that could help you out in understanding what I'm after.

Hi j0nny,

It's cool, don't worry about it. :) I was genuinely interested in your thoughts about it and tried to understand where you were coming from. I do agree that bookshelf monitors can be versatile due to their characteristics.


Ah! I just remembered something. Dave mentioned that the CBM-170se already did pretty much what I'm after. That made me curious because I just assumed you shouldn't really wall mount a rear-ported speaker. Is there something I'm not considering? Would it sound okay wall-mounted? See, I just don't know this stuff. Just now, I read some forum advice to another where a person said "get the HTM-200 because the CBM-170 is rear ported and not suited for wall-mounting." I'm paraphrasing. But...

Wall-mounting could refer to using OmniMounts or literally mounting the speaker to the wall. When using a solution such as OmniMounts, you're generally OK since the mounts give a few inches of space between the wall and the speaker. However, if one wants a "speaker-to-wall" mounting solution for aesthetics or other reasons, there are a few things to consider.

A bass reflex speaker is designed to "breathe." Simply plugging the port (e.g. with a sock or mounting flush to wall) changes the speaker characteristics and performance. This is one reason why Dave offers the Q-Plugs for the Sierra-1. One cannot just "put a sock in it" without introducing problems including over-pressurization of the air inside the cabinet. In addition, the close placement of port-to-wall can create unwanted acoustical effects that can be noticeable to the listener.

So, if you're flush-mounting speakers to the wall, then get a sealed design like the 200s. If you're using something like OmniMounts or custom mounting hardware, just be sure you allow several inches for a rear-ported enclosure. The 170s need about 3 inches. If you wall-mount the Sierras, definitely get the Q-Plugs (type A would be better in my opinion) and allow 3" minimum. Personally, I'd consider 4" - 5".

Hope that helps.


EDIT: Sorry curtis. Didn't see your post until after I submitted.

[Dark Ranger]

Just wanted to say "thank you" to Dave for providing a detailed explanation for j0nnyfive. It was a great read over lunch break today. :cool: Some other companies would just blow off customer feedback and suggestions. Ascend is different.

Of course, I learned a few things, too. Thanks! :D

[j0nnyfive]

Thanks guys!

Curtis, how loud I listen depends greatly on what it is. Music? Moderate to low volume. Movies? Depends. A noisy action movie I tend to have at moderate level due to the nonstop booming and blasting. A horror flick? Louder, especially when there are many scenes of low volume followed by sudden scares. It really just depends. The headroom, for me, is all about home theater. Music just seems more constant in volume so I have it lower.
Although, I am becoming more intrigued with what more dynamics can do for music. I don't think about music much tho. I do enjoy the music during movies. The Sierras really brought out subtle details that heighten emotion of the music in the movies. :) I liked that. I also like the impact of the movie theater in town. Just that big and robust, powerful, thunderous, effortless sound. I just saw Avengers 3 times. lol The scene with the helicopter flying overhead just rattled my chest. Awesome. :cool:

Right now, I can't listen loud at all because I'm in an apartment. I would like to purchase a great set of home theater speakers that would serve me well now as well as in the future when I can stretch out their limits and treat my room for acoustics, etc. I don't mean to come across as some crazed nut who keeps harping on "sensitivity blah blah" at the expense of other things because that's not what I'm trying to do. lol I am searching for the perfect compromise for my needs... a balancing act between dynamics, sound quality, and room placement, AND the ability to have a center channel. I have a large projector screen for my room. Not much space either below or above the screen. This is why I was aiming for a bookshelf speaker. The bookshelf design, to me, seems to be the most versatile design for many space-related and aesthetic reasons.

I'm shooting for above 90db sensitivity in the speaker because anything below this I KNOW I will have to replace the speaker in the future. I was hoping it would be possible to merge "speaker genres" between the high sensitivity (95+) and hifi (85-90) type to achieve a balance somehow where a person would not have to choose between either the hifi sound or the high efficiency sound (horn coloration, etc). But... eh... doesn't look like I'm gonna achieve that today. The one thing that gave me hope was the simple idea that the more bass you want, the less efficiency you can have at a given size. I know this may be an over-simplification that doesn't take into account many things, but I thought... aha! If we just "give back" the bass extension of the Sierra-1 or CBM and instead just focused on headroom, maybe I could sprinkle some magic pixie dust and make it so... didn't work. :)

Jacob, thanks for that explanation about mounts! That makes sense. I believe I would prefer the speaker to be flush-mounted such as the HTM-200se is designed to do. What gave me the idea of "my ideal speaker" was my researching the new low-cost high efficiency HT speakers such as the SHO-10, JTR single 8, etc. There are qualities of these speakers that I really like (relatively small, front-ported, highly sensitive). I thought... that's perfect! They are singin' my song! Especially the JTR single because it looks like your traditional bookshelf type of speaker. Why don't I buy these? I might! I just didn't know if the CBM-170se could be "beefed" into something like this without going exotic. See, I don't know the math behind this stuff.

I'll shut up now. lol Thanks guys!

[curtis]

IMO, without really knowing what kind of listening levels you like (SPL), thinking about headroom is a moot point.

[j0nnyfive]

Sorry,

I forget to further explain things. I would like to have a system that is clear for reference level volume at a respectable distance (at least 12ft). Each speaker should be individually capable of hitting 105db cleanly at the LP. This is something I enjoy sometimes with certain films, and sometimes only certain scenes of certain films. This is "loud", but room-size and treatments affect perception of the loudness, etc. And, I don't watch movies everyday. Maybe once or twice a week, and I wouldn't always want reference. But sometimes I definitely would if I had it!

Now, I would be willing to give up some of this capability, if I can get more sound quality. I would be willing to trade. :) But only to a certain extent. Because I'm kind of a theater geek that values being able to achieve certain standards as well. I would start there, and work down depending on how much of that "good music" SQ I can squeeze in there.

Also, my listening levels will shift depending on where I take the speakers. If I take them over to my buddy's man-cave, we can crank em. In the apartment, it's a no-go. But yeah, I would start with reference at at least 12ft distance, clean, and go backwards from there. I also value efficiency because I don't really want to have to be able to provide gobs of power to 5 channels... yikes... but, it just depends...

I hope this makes sense in some way... please keep probing for more info because I don't explain myself well sometimes. I've spent so much time reading HT forums that I take it for granted.

Thanks Curtis!

[curtis]

What do you have now that can hit 105db at the listening position?

[j0nnyfive]

The movie theater in town. :D Love it! It isn't mine, but I wish it was. lol
I want a system that can have that sort of impact, but with fuller bass! I think the bass won't be too hard because they're trying to fill a huge stadium. They've got reference level I'm sure, but I'm also pretty sure their bass isn't going too far down low. Just a guess tho!

[j0nnyfive]

Thanks guys for taking the time to respond to my ideas! I don't know many speaker companies, but this is the one I trust the most. And, thanks to Dave for that info even tho I'm sure he's up to his eyeballs in work. :)

Thanks for the good sound! Just got finished watching Daredevil. I had never seen it before. Good movie! Watching with my CMT-340's, the phantom image seemed really accurate. I kinda forgot the sound was coming from speakers. lol Good stuff. Much to think about... :cool:

[davef]

Hey Dave!

I was wondering when you were going to step in with the technical info! :D

Thank you for your response btw!

I should have mentioned higher power handling as well. lol I'm aware of this, but I neglected to mention it. I was afraid you were going to say it wouldn't work, but I thought I'd try anyway. :) And I was afraid the CBM was already at it's peak efficiency because you seem to have pretty dynamic speakers to begin with. I wasn't sure if it could be taken higher or not, because I'm just learning about this stuff. I was taking a leap of faith with the very simplistic notion of "less bass, more efficient" and seeing where that could go. Well.... phooey! lol I knew it couldn't be that simple!

Well, I believe you've just confirmed what I was suspecting. I'm gonna have to get 2 systems now. :D One loud w/ horn, and one hifi with domes. The gears are 'a turnin'. I think I'm possibly seeing more Sierra-1 Nrts in my future! lol

Thanks everybody!


I'm just editing this to say thanks Dave, again. I really like reading your technical posts because they are very informative without being over my head. I'm thinking about what you've said. Do you know of any good resources where I could learn more about building speakers and how they work? Maybe something that doesn't have too much calculus? I've been slowly learning by reading online but where would you suggest a newbie start? Probably going to order a Pi speaker soon just to get some experience with hands on assembly. Any good books you recommend? Thanks again.

You are most welcome, it is really my pleasure :) Hey, did you even realize that the first picture you posted to describe the speaker you are looking for is actually our CBM-170SE? :D

A great book that covers a ton of info is "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason. It is a good place to start and is also quite valuable as handy reference material...

[j0nnyfive]

Hey, did you even realize that the first picture you posted to describe the speaker you are looking for is actually our CBM-170SE?



Why yes. Yes I did. :) I did that on purpose. lol Thanks for the book recommendation! Jotted that down... I'm holding here in my hands a book by David B. Weems called "Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System." It seems nice and geared toward the total newb but I would recommend someone read it with Google nearby as many of the terms aren't rigidly defined, IMO. But I'm enjoying it!

After reading your technical explanation and also this book, I think I'm starting to realize the degree of trade-offs in speaker design. Never mind about my suggestion. lol Too funny to me now. Oh well.

And, I should have stated from the outset that I am mainly into movies and not music. I'm probably not the typical Ascend customer. But, I want to tell you about my first experience of listening to the Sierra-1 Nrt.

When I first started playing some tunes through those speakers, I had a major major cognitive malfunction. I sat there and stared at the left speaker, and then the right. Nothing was wrong, but my brain felt like something was wrong because I had never heard

a. Accurate imaging, and

b. This much BASS from a bookshelf speaker

I no longer have the speakers because I'm the kind of person that buys things and trades things (not necessarily for the better because I really miss those bookshelf speakers now)... but... that's what I will always remember about my beautiful piano black Sierra-1s. How I miss them. :o

[hearing specialist]

I can put together a system with all Ascend components, configure it as a 5.2 or 4.2 setup depending on your room, and achieve easily THX Reference level. Listening at 85db RMS with 20db of headroom is extremely powerful and dynamic. I can even go as far as having you go to your local Costco to get a free hearing test or have your physician provide one for you, and even tune per your audiometric thresholds. Mr. Dave could brand this setup as AscendX...listening better than THX...:cool:

Ascend can more than deliver THX level listening and better than performance with current products newly developed. I'm subscribed here friend and would love to be a part of your future setup, room correction, and component assembly. You can do it!!!:D

[j0nnyfive]

Thanks hearing specialist! I may take you up on that eventually. :) It will be a while. Money's trickling slow for me at the moment. But I'll get there... eventually. lol