Show me the way...

[Long time paradigm]

I have been purchasing and enjoying audio equipment for over 10 years. I'm pretty stubborn. I would never consider anything but paradigm. The more research I do, the more I realize that there actually are other speakers out there. So hopefully somebody can help guide me. I have paradigm monitor 9 v6 fronts. CC 290 center and mini monitor rears (all v6). My impressions are that I enjoy the midrange but hate the tweeters more and more every day. I'm considering selling the whole system and going with ascend. I haven't decided on the sub yet. I have found several great companies selling great subs. That's a discussion for another time. So I ask... Is anyone familar with the paradigm monitor line and how does it compare. Sierras are out of my price range so throw that out. Any help would be great. Also considering axiom. all thoughts are welcome! Thanks!

[DaveHo]

I've never heard that particular Monitor line. However, I had a complete 7 channel Paradigm Studio v2 setup(100s, CC, ADPs, 20's) that I ditched for a 340SE LCR & 170SE side/rear setup if that tells you anything.

-Dave

[Long time paradigm]

Thanks, that actually helps a lot. The studios are the next line up and much more expensive. I read reviews of ascends sounding bright and your ears have to break in do to the extreme clarity. Any truth to this claim? I know everyone hears things different but I'm trying to get away from "bright" speakers. I want a smooth balanced sound. Am I in the right place?

[curtis]

Where did you read that Ascends are bright?

[Long time paradigm]

I read it AV forum. Guy was saying it sounded bright due the the forward sounding midrange and treble vs a more laid back speaker. Bare with me as you can see by name that the only high end speakers I have ever listened to are paradigms. So you're dealing with a newbe here

[curtis]

Ahh, ok, it was by comparison.

Ascends are widely known for their accurate presentation.

[petmotel]

I read it AV forum. Guy was saying it sounded bright due the the forward sounding midrange and treble vs a more laid back speaker. Bare with me as you can see by name that the only high end speakers I have ever listened to are paradigms. So you're dealing with a newbe here

I have a full Ascend system (Towers w/RAALs, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 1NrT as surrounds). I've been into audio since my late teens, which was a very long time ago, and I can assure you the Ascends, as Curtis said, are very neutral, and accurate.

I do have some source material (a Fleetwood Mac title "Say You Will" immediately comes to mind) that is almost painful due to how bright the recording is. I don't feel that poorly recorded material reflects the qualities of a speaker, but there is plenty out there, particularly of the pop/rock genres.

Most folks will readily admit a good speaker will reveal flawed source content, usually not in a good way. If you make an effort to review music online before buying, it's not too hard to avoid most bad recordings.

Jay

[Long time paradigm]

Thanks for taking the time to help me out. As soon as I get all this paradigm stuff sold, I'm pulling the trigger on ascend. These have to be great speakers

[curtis]

Where do you live? Perhaps you can get a "taste" if an Ascend owner is near by and willing to have you over for a listen.

[Long time paradigm]

Indianapolis Indiana. That would be cool if there was an owner near me.

[HiroPro]

I have been purchasing and enjoying audio equipment for over 10 years. I'm pretty stubborn. I would never consider anything but paradigm. The more research I do, the more I realize that there actually are other speakers out there. So hopefully somebody can help guide me. I have paradigm monitor 9 v6 fronts. CC 290 center and mini monitor rears (all v6). My impressions are that I enjoy the midrange but hate the tweeters more and more every day. I'm considering selling the whole system and going with ascend. I haven't decided on the sub yet. I have found several great companies selling great subs. That's a discussion for another time. So I ask... Is anyone familar with the paradigm monitor line and how does it compare. Sierras are out of my price range so throw that out. Any help would be great. Also considering axiom. all thoughts are welcome! Thanks!

Axiom speakers IMHO and MANY OTHERS are all hype and internet marketing. The truth is some of their loudspeakers are INCREDIBLY poorly engineered.

Google Skiing Ninja and Axiom to find the TRUTH

[Long time paradigm]

Really?? I haven't beeb able to find a single negative review on their speakers. That's interesting. I thought they were comparible to asscend

[HiroPro]

Really?? I haven't beeb able to find a single negative review on their speakers. That's interesting. I thought they were comparible to asscend

To compare Ian Colquhoun's work to Dave's is a MAJOR INSULT to Dave IMHO though this forum isn't the place to voice such opinions. Also don't believe review sites on the net as most are biased and/or paid off indirectly.

Think about it... have you ever read a BAD REVIEW from any of the audio media/mafia?

LOL

[rtrose]

I will second the "honesty" of these speakers. They are very true, and natural sounding, they don't "color" the sound in my opinion. I have the Towers and 170's as surrounds. The only other setup I have for comparison is the Klipsch Quintet 5.1's and when driven hard they do tend to get fatiguing, I have not experienced this with my Ascends at all even for extended listening sessions at higher volumes.

They do reveal weaknesses in the recordings and will show the truth in a poorly engineered recording or poor quality transfer. With a good quality sound track or recording they are truly fantastic speakers.

I looked at Axiom, Aperion, SVS, Klipsch, and Ascend before I committed to buying speakers for my theater. I did a tremendous amount of lurking in the owners threads of each speaker trying to glean all of the information I could of the various brands. In the end it came down to Aperion, Ascend, and Klipsch. Obviously I went with Ascend and I have not looked back.

I have not heard the paradigms but the 170 SE's are the 370 SE's little brothers and they are great speakers in their own right. If my speaker budget had not opened up for me I was going to "settle" with the 370 SE's across the front. I'm sure I would have been very happy with that had I been "forced" to go that way.

I would do some lurking in the AVS Forums (if you have not done so already) as we are all biased here, just a little anyway.

Regards,

RTROSE

[rtrose]

To compare Ian Colquhoun's work to Dave's is a MAJOR INSULT to Dave IMHO though this forum isn't the place to voice such opinions. Also don't believe review sites on the net as most are biased and/or paid off indirectly.

Think about it... have you ever read a BAD REVIEW from any of the audio media?

LOL


I don't think he meant any disrespect towards DaveF or Ascend, I think he is just searching for answers in a very info overloaded environment. I too in my search for "honest and true" evaluations of speakers had to wade through a bunch of BS to get to the real nitty gritty of it all.

We are just slightly biased as Ascend owners here, just slightly. :p

I think in all of my searching for speakers what led me here was the passion all the Ascend owners seem to have for the company and the speakers and the major hands on approach DaveF has for his company and his customers. He is quite the man running quite the company!

Regards,

RTROSE

[curtis]

The one thing that is often overlooked is that Dave handles every aspect of the speaker....driver and crossover design/engineering, and the cabinet. No development/design work is farmed out to someone else.

The only driver in Ascend's compliment of speakers, that Dave is the least involved with, is the RAAL tweeter in the Towers, and even those have custom faceplates for Ascend.

In the ID world, Dave's relationship with his vendors is second to none, which is a huge reason he is able to get the specs/quality/cost he needs, which in turn is part of the transformation into a great product for us, Ascend's customers.

[Long time paradigm]

I have heard that too. It is unfortunate that it really is tough to find an honest review out there. I can't compare because I haven't heard either one. I'm trying to get all my paradigm stuff sold then I am buying assend. I am extremely excited to hear them. Thanks for your opinion.

[Gov]

I have been an Ascend owner for nearly 6 years now. I love the sound of the speakers and absolutely love their customer service!! It is truely second to none! I own an Epik subwoofer (local to me) and the owner Chad is a great guy to deal with and makes excellent subwoofers, but unfortunately his customer service is not as polished as Dave and Dina's. As long as Dave continues to make a great product along with the astounding customer service, I will never look anywhere else :cool: I guess you could say I am a customer for life :D

[GirgleMirt]

Recently brought back my 340SE to have some listening and comparing to my other speakers. The 340SE are really good smooth speakers. The Sierra NrT is definitely a more forward speaker, not that it is a forward sounding speaker, it's just that there seems to be more high end energy (casual friend's comment was just this) so if that's what you want to avoid the Sierra NrT might be the only Ascend speaker you might want to avoid... Yet when saying this, as I've said, it's not really a 'forward' sounding speaker, just seems to have more high end 'presence/detail', anyhow, not sure how to explain it, I've taken measurements and there's no tipped up high end, but the NrT still do sound a bit more forward than the 340SE or the Sierra.

But going back to the 340SE, it is a very smooth speaker and the treble is definitely non-grating/abrasive, quite smooth, the bass is there, quite decent/solid, speaker is very neutral, detail is good, definitely a good buy! I'd say definitely more in the same class as the Paradigm Studios than the Monitor series.

Old posts of mine on the subject:


Depends on your usage. Short story, for HT, you could definitely save the dough and go for the 340SEs. If you're more into music then going with the Sierras might be worth the price of admission. The 340SEs are still very good for music, sold off a pair of 1600$ Totem Sttafs when I got a pair of 340SEs for a 2nd system... But the Sierras are a bit better overall, which is most noticeable with music, not so much with HT imho... And 340SE are more sensitive, so although I've never played loud enough to see for myself, the 340SEs might theoretically play louder than the Sierras... Which was a rather moot point for myself. The Sierras have better bass though, play lower, and bit better resolution/imaging. If you use a sub, bass doesn't really matter, and for HT, IMHO, the 340SEs are more than adequate and are more than enough for most. For the the anal audiophile though, Sierras are better...


http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=275161&start=40

nope, black laminate or custom color paint, or unfinished cabinets only. Which one looks better actually depends on the room I'd guess, in my HT/music room, I think the Ascends actually look better. In a more furnished living room, then I guess the Totems might be a better fit, really depends on the setting.

with covers, they become more inconspicuous than with the drivers exposed.

As for the Totems vs Ascends, man, I wasn't expecting the Ascends to sound that good Eek When first shopping and listening to Paradigm, BWs, Kef, Monitor Audio, Magnepans, Boston, Triangle, Polk, Odyssey and a bunch of others, I decided on Totem Arros, Monitor Audio S6 were close second. I noticed an issue with the Arros and after a while year, brought them to the dealer. Few days later, walked out with a pair of Sttafs. Massive sound coloration change which I thought I would adapt to, but actually, I never really managed to make the transition... Sttafs are pretty warm, and I'm not crazy about warmness, but I thought that with an EQ I could fix that. Never actually worked as well as I hoped. I liked the Arro's presentation better, but the Sttafs had better bass and better detail/resolution. The speaker I really liked when comparing Arro vs Sttaf was the Hawk, but Arro is ~1200$cdn, Sttaf ~1550, Hawk ~3000$ so that was quite a leap. The Arro had very good presentation but wasn't as detailed, Sttafs lesser presentation but very good detail, pretty much as detailed as the Hawk, and the Hawk, well, had it all, detail and presentation, but at twice the Sttaf price... Had the 340s been there at the time, I'd have been comparing them with the Hawks.

The Ascends are neutral, to me that pretty much equates to perfect presentation, and I think they're more detailed than the Sttafs, but thats to be confirmed with an A/B later on. If I want to mess with the presentation (tone, more mids/highs/lows/etc), then I'll use the EQ, but IMHO its much better to use an EQ to change the sound from flat to non-flat than to try to get a non-flat speaker to sound flat...

Just spent about 2 hours listening to Modest Mouse, Supertramp, Don Ross, Peppino D'Agostino (2 last are extremely talented guitarists) on the 340s, next up will be come Coverdale Page and some classical, yesterday I spent a little time with Pink Floyd and Diana Krall, and now I'm fairly confident the Ascends are simply better speakers. I actually bought the Ascends for a 2nd system since I had some parts I wasn't using (sub, amp), but I'm pretty sure the Totems will get relegated to the 2nd system! At ~800$ (after ship, cdn exchange, etc) vs 1500$, thats surprising but hey, I'm not complaining, the Totems will look better in the furnished room! Big Grin

I don't think the Totems Sttafs are really +/- 3dB 40hz-20khz... If they are, they're probably barely... An annoyance unEQ'd is that some notes will be louder than others, and that can be irritating... The 340s are just much more better balanced and to my taste, thats much better, some might prefer the Sttafs, but then it would probably be because of their coloration, something you could probably reproduce with an EQ.

Two 6.5 drivers vs one 5.5 inch for the Sttaf. I'm not 100% sure but there must be less distortion or something with the biggest woofers... The 340SE's tweeter also from what I've heard (to be confirmed with A/B though!!) is superior to the Sttaf's... Last few times I went to audio shows, the speakers which most impressed me were the top end JMLabs and the Dynaudios. Well, the 340SE might not exactly as good as those >3000$ speakers, but they're like 600$ and IMHO they're much closer than the Totem Sttafs!

If I was obligated to only keep 1 pair, Arro, Sttaf or 340SE, I'd keep the Ascends. I really have nothing against Totems, actually for the price the Arros were hard to beat, and with some EQing the Sttafs could sound really good, but out of the box, the Ascends don't require an EQ to get rid of some FR aberrations, and they simply sound amazing, they really offer unbelievable value! If you want the sound quality in the Totem line, depending on your tastes, you'll probably have to go with Hawks/Forrests/Mani-2! I'd expect these to sound better, but they're quite more than 600$...


Well in the end, IMHO (personal taste), sound quality only, the 340SE's are better than the Totem Sttafs. There's really not a whole lot the Sttafs do better than the Ascends, but there's a lot the Ascends do a lot better than the Sttafs!

If I had to keep only one, the 340SE's would be the ones. So far, I'm just getting a lot more enjoyement out of them than the Sttafs. 90% is from colored vs neutral. They just produce a more faithful and lifelike sound IMHO. The Totems are fuller, but its because of a big and loud humps in the FR, where that effect can sometime sound good, its mostly detrimental. The 340SE also have surprising bass, I was a bit surprised by it, I was expecting picking up the phone and ask my sub back from the person I lended it to, but nope, they're fine without a sub! (well for music)

The main weakness of the staff is the FR aberrations (annoying notes heard louder). Some people don't notice it, or it doesn't seem to bother, me, unfortunately I notice it and it can somewhat be annoying :P Fixable with EQ, but, I'm a perfectionnist/tweak kind of guy and never got the EQ settings 100% right, making the Sttafs sound 'flat' was harder than I thought. So half the time I was almost equilizing vs just listening to music... It was fun at first, bit detrimental to the listening experience after a while. Even with an ECM 8000 measurement microphone and auto EQ from the DEQ2496. Btw, digital EQ + mic doesn't really work... Its a decent starting point, but it sounds much better tweaked by ear, I think I (and probably the auto-EQ feature) would have needed more than the 31 EQ bands to get things perfect... I also would have needed more tweak time and more experience (EQing non-flat speaker isn't as easy as it sounds, and also its not as fun either...). If then you move the speakers/listening positions, oops, you have to redo the EQing!

Like I said before, the Ascends sound like how I was trying to get the Sttafs to sound with the EQ. So no more EQing stuff. *sighOfRelief* I'm very suprised by their performance, I wasn't expecting them bettering the Totems...

But out of the box, for someone like me who's not after warmth or colored speakers, the 340SE are the definite winner. Hands down. I'd be very surprised if any ~1000$ speaker could match them... I went to a few shows/demos and never got the urge to upgrade the EQ'd Sttafs, but for the price of the digital EQ + Sttafs, the Ascends at less than half the price offer a lot more bang for the buck and a lot less hassle!

[Long time paradigm]

Thanks for all the great reponses guys. It is tough to look past all the maketing and find "real" speakers. It looks like I'm well on my way. Thanks again for all the great info. I received an email from Dave after I asked him if he had heard my paradigms and how he would compare them and his response blew me away. He broke down every question I asked and They were great responses. His attention to detail in his response sold me. I can't put it into words how impressed I am.

[HiroPro]

Thanks for all the great reponses guys. It is tough to look past all the maketing and find "real" speakers. It looks like I'm well on my way. Thanks again for all the great info. I received an email from Dave after I asked him if he had heard my paradigms and how he would compare them and his response blew me away. He broke down every question I asked and They were great responses. His attention to detail in his response sold me. I can't put it into words how impressed I am.

Sorry if my comment was misconstrued as I know you meant no insult. Nor I for that matter...

Anyway...

You are one fortunate individual to have found Dave/Ascend. Many people spend THOUSANDS trying to come up with a good systems that IMHO don't compare to even Dave's more affordable line like the 170s and 340s. You prob have heard of many speakers claiming to sound "as good as speakers costing twice the price" well... for the most part it's BS... unless it's DIY OR

ASCEND ACOUSTICS

PS Curtis's point about Dave's OEM relationships and the sonic payoff is 100% on the money... PLUS Dave's "Golden Ear" and loudspeaker design GENIUS.

[paulphoosreal]

Hi,
I'm Paul and a nearby meighbor of yours.
I have Sierra1Nrt's and you are welcome to come by anytime for a listen.
You will leave wanting them!How do I know.I've been a Cedia installer since we first organized here in Indy.And I've heard mucho speakers including the esoteric.Ascends do the job correctly.And look great at the same time.
Right now my residence is in Nappanee,2hours North of Indy.However in 2 months I'll be living in a house in Fishers/Noblesville.
If you can't wait to hear them,drop me a mail at [email]paulphoosreal
I always enjoy showing off great equipment and Ascend IMHO is great.
Ordering the Towers with the Raal in 2 months.
Will wait to hear from you.
Hope this helps

[Jonnyozero3]

Hey paul, awesome of you to offer up your place for a demo!

But, you may want to edit your email address - say, paulphoosreal at yahoo. If you leave it verbatim as you have it, the "spam spiders" on here interwebs will catch it :)

[paulphoosreal]

Appreciate that fact very much and THANK YOU!!!Once again-OOPS

[HiroPro]

Thanks for all the great reponses guys. It is tough to look past all the maketing and find "real" speakers. It looks like I'm well on my way. Thanks again for all the great info. I received an email from Dave after I asked him if he had heard my paradigms and how he would compare them and his response blew me away. He broke down every question I asked and They were great responses. His attention to detail in his response sold me. I can't put it into words how impressed I am.

If you have faith and checkout Sierra/Horizon (great name too ehh guys! I just love it and it's so appropriate BTW it was a member contribution) and you bite the bullet and buy thinking... LIFERS... Then at $3200 for L/R Raal and $1600 C Raal(when all said and done) we are talking a rather large investment in loudspeakers at $4800 bucks BUT you are truly going to be getting speakers that DO compare to ones costing... heck... $10,000 ? I'd say they'd take on and defeat Dynaudio et al at this pricepoint. They MOST CERTAINLY will BLOW AWAY your Paradigms that's for CERTAIN!

The other thing that's great about Dave's speakers is they are easy to drive. So you won't be hearing performance loss due to your amp not having enough "balls" etc. At this level of performance though you will be able to hear a improvement using discrete amps/monoblock than using an AVRs amplifiers. If you need amps to go with it I'd take a look at Emotiva if you're not already aware of them. They are going to have a pre/pro within six months that's really going to be something...

A good investment would be a XPA-2 and a UPA-1 for the front. Or you could get a XPA-5. I have SEVEN UPA-1s LOL... modified a little ;)

uhh... I've built various digital amp kits as well and those UPA-1 are just BRILLIANT for the money. I know a lot of people don't believe in the affects of crosstalk and interchannel modulation but it is REAL.

Another brand of amp I could suggest is ATI. They are the ODM for a LOT of boutique amps and those buggers just stencil their names on it. The AT2005 is a GREAT amp.

I'm going to have a new system by fall that will be comprised of Sierra Tower Raal with Horizon Raal powered by UPA-1s with hopefully an Emotiva XMC-1. I might get a AT2005 in house to A/B with the UPA-1s. I also want to get a couple of new subs. I might go the Brian Ding route or build some BFM HT Tubas and drive them with my two spare UPA-1s.

THANK GOD I helped you out before you purchased anything from that Canuck ID outfit!!! OMG YEAH! I SAVED you from BLEEDING EAR SYNDROME! LOL (what people call 'bright'). The M80s are just
HORRIBLE in terms of ear fatigue. I seriously can't listen to those loudspeakers for more than five minutes before I have MAJOR EAR FATIGUE from the bloody HORRIBLE dual tweet MADNESS and all the combing artifacts from the two of them... and the cabinets are so so CHEAPLY MADE it's SHOCKING...

[HiroPro]

Thanks, that actually helps a lot. The studios are the next line up and much more expensive. I read reviews of ascends sounding bright and your ears have to break in do to the extreme clarity. Any truth to this claim? I know everyone hears things different but I'm trying to get away from "bright" speakers. I want a smooth balanced sound. Am I in the right place?

A good HALF of those people shooting their mouths off are actually sock-puppets controlled by other vendors. They go out on the net astroturfing and performing meat-puppetry in an atempt to put down outfits like Ascend because they know... DAVE KICKS THEIR BUTT!

;)

PS It's SYSTEMIC on that "science" forum... absolutely SYSTEMIC

[paulphoosreal]

I totally agree with your term "puppets" out there.Having attended more shows than I can count.Hearing all the prophetic statements about how their product is superior to anyother and so on and then rehearing the same rubbish after I've installed these "super" systems makes me very grateful that a companies such as Ascend and yes,Emotiva exist.Their seems to be a great deal of reliance of hearing equipment through reviewers ears rather than our own.Lack of places to hear various equipment besides the shows is a major cause.in my own situation,I get to hear the esoteric and not-so.It always boils down to simple facts.Quality engineering,build,drivers and physics dictate how good a product can be,Ascend does more for less than any other speaker manufacturer I've heard out there IMHO.I'm sure there are other accurate loudspeaker manufacturers out there.I've not found them as of yet and I've been in the industry 15+ years.Yes,$4800 is a bunch of bucks,but,over time not having to "upgrade".it's well worth it.Again,IMHO