340SE center

[Gov]

Dave, this may be a silly question, but do you consider this center to do even better with dialogue in HT than the 340SE at high SPL's? The reason I ask is because I find dialogue on some movies at near reference to be a bit unintelligable at times on my 340SE. Maybe its my room or maybe its my aging ears :D I have tried it with and without MCACC room correction. With MCACC it sounds more rich, so I use it. Just wondering how much better this center will be with HT. Thnx.

[choirbass]

Dave, this may be a silly question, but do you consider this center to do even better with dialogue in HT than the 340SE at high SPL's? The reason I ask is because I find dialogue on some movies at near reference to be a bit unintelligable at times on my 340SE. Maybe its my room or maybe its my aging ears :D I have tried it with and without MCACC room correction. With MCACC it sounds more rich, so I use it. Just wondering how much better this center will be with HT. Thnx.

Hm.. I really am just guessing here, so I'm sure I'll be corrected. But wouldn't listening to something constantly at near reference levels really just give the impression of seeming distorted when you're sitting close enough to it? Reference levels are very loud, louder than I'm comfortable listening to anyhow.

That was meant for Dave, so I digress.

[Gov]

Hm.. I really am just guessing here, so I'm sure I'll be corrected. But wouldn't listening to something constantly at near reference levels really just give the impression of seeming distorted when you're sitting close enough to it? Reference levels are very loud, louder than I'm comfortable listening to anyhow.

That was meant for Dave, so I digress.


I usually am somewhere between -5 and -15dB from reference level, so not really ever at 0dB ;)

[davef]

Dave, this may be a silly question, but do you consider this center to do even better with dialogue in HT than the 340SE at high SPL's? The reason I ask is because I find dialogue on some movies at near reference to be a bit unintelligable at times on my 340SE. Maybe its my room or maybe its my aging ears :D I have tried it with and without MCACC room correction. With MCACC it sounds more rich, so I use it. Just wondering how much better this center will be with HT. Thnx.

The STC is a HUGE step up from our CMT-340C. That said, we need to determine the cause for what you are experiencing. It could be the speaker, or your room / placement or even your electronics. If we can determine that the 340 SE is reaching its limits, then yes -- the STC will definitely solve the problem as it is capable of far greater output levels. However, if this is room or electronics related, I doubt the STC will resolve the issue.

Try moving the center to a different location in your room just to determine if intelligbility at very loud listenining levels is improved.

[Gov]

The STC is a HUGE step up from our CMT-340C. That said, we need to determine the cause for what you are experiencing. It could be the speaker, or your room / placement or even your electronics. If we can determine that the 340 SE is reaching its limits, then yes -- the STC will definitely solve the problem as it is capable of far greater output levels. However, if this is room or electronics related, I doubt the STC will resolve the issue.

Try moving the center to a different location in your room just to determine if intelligbility at very loud listenining levels is improved.


The 340SE is on a mopad at the edge of the top HT equipment rack, just under my wall mounted plasma. I have a Pioneer Elite SC-05 that has a very robust ICEPower amp section. I am using the receiver's room correction and have engaged a slight x-curve. Dialogue at a loud volume seems to sound best this way.
I guess the best way to describe what I hear at times is a harshness with some movie soundtracks, again, only at very loud SPL's. I really do not think my receiver is running out of gas, since it is only dialogue understandability and not everything centered in the center channel. I am thinking maybe the 340 is at its limits or nearing it. I guess it would be hard to tell for sure

[choirbass]

The 340SE is on a mopad at the edge of the top HT equipment rack, just under my wall mounted plasma. I have a Pioneer Elite SC-05 that has a very robust ICEPower amp section. I am using the receiver's room correction and have engaged a slight x-curve. Dialogue at a loud volume seems to sound best this way.
I guess the best way to describe what I hear at times is a harshness with some movie soundtracks, again, only at very loud SPL's. I really do not think my receiver is running out of gas, since it is only dialogue understandability and not everything centered in the center channel. I am thinking maybe the 340 is at its limits or nearing it. I guess it would be hard to tell for sure

I really wouldn't think the amplifiers themselves would be overpowering the speaker @ 130w@8ohm max, and even then I would be iffy of that honestly (since manufacturers do tend to mislead in one way or another). I would look more to what Dave is leaning towards, too. (media sources, speaker placement, etc) Even too much demand being placed on the avr with the volume that high, dunno if that would even be at all it. The avr seems capable, and the 340s are pretty sensitive @ 92db@1w, 240w 8ohm max continual, 400w 8ohm max peak. I'd be deaf with them at that level at only one meter or closer lol. It could just be something simple, like wiring or interference even (I wouldn't know much about that, but again it could just be something simple). Maybe power only the center speaker or l+r fronts, or both, see if that makes any difference. (it would change the load on the amplifiers, psu, etc. might help.. or not lol, not sure otherwise)

From amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-Elite-7-1-Channel-Receiver-Select2/dp/B001GBYVB6

Multichannel Simultaneous Power Output Total 630W (1kHz, 1% THD @ 8Ω)
130W x 7 Direct Energy HD Amplification (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD @ 8Ω, FTC)

(unless those are the wrong avr specs, whichcase I apologize)

[HiroPro]

The 340SE is on a mopad at the edge of the top HT equipment rack, just under my wall mounted plasma. I have a Pioneer Elite SC-05 that has a very robust ICEPower amp section. I am using the receiver's room correction and have engaged a slight x-curve. Dialogue at a loud volume seems to sound best this way.
I guess the best way to describe what I hear at times is a harshness with some movie soundtracks, again, only at very loud SPL's. I really do not think my receiver is running out of gas, since it is only dialogue understandability and not everything centered in the center channel. I am thinking maybe the 340 is at its limits or nearing it. I guess it would be hard to tell for sure

Have you tried it with both positions of the EXBAC switch? You'll have to temporarily remove one driver to get to the xover. On the xover PCB there is a switch. Flip it to the other position and see if it helps. I think it's the right side midwoofer you remove looking at the baffle. I have a strange feeling this is your issue. Do the people's voices sound... "honky" ?

HINT when you remove a driver untap each screw half way. Slid driver out slightly so you can hold the edges of it's basket while it hangs on the screws.Then remove the BOTTOM ones first. Then remove the last two screws while holding the driver basket edges. Be careful not to hit the cone. It's center of gravity is a little weird for people that haven't handled a driver before.

GOOD LUCK!

[Gov]

Have you tried it with both positions of the EXBAC switch? You'll have to temporarily remove one driver to get to the xover. On the xover PCB there is a switch. Flip it to the other position and see if it helps. I think it's the right side midwoofer you remove looking at the baffle. I have a strange feeling this is your issue. Do the people's voices sound... "honky" ?

HINT when you remove a driver untap each screw half way. Slid driver out slightly so you can hold the edges of it's basket while it hangs on the screws.Then remove the BOTTOM ones first. Then remove the last two screws while holding the driver basket edges. Be careful not to hit the cone. It's center of gravity is a little weird for people that haven't handled a driver before.

GOOD LUCK!

Yes, "honky" is a good descriptor. Also, "edgy" would too. How would turning off EXBAC help with that? Maybe Dave can chime in here. I am beginning to think that room acoustics may be playing a big part in this.

[HiroPro]

Yes, "honky" is a good descriptor. Also, "edgy" would too. How would turning off EXBAC help with that? Maybe Dave can chime in here. I am beginning to think that room acoustics may be playing a big part in this.

How do you know it's turned on? It could be set to off. I believe the center channel ships with it turned on. Don't quote me on that. It would be EASY to ship it in the off position for a center when testing/shipping by mistake. I believe on is the switch flipped AWAY from the resistor.

I betcha that's it. Where do you have it in your room? Picture would be great.

And owhh... the xover is on the post plate I think. just remove it. My advice for driver removal though is a good one if you ever have to do it.

Dave describes you issue perfectly in his product literature.


EXBAC Defined: the front baffle of a loudspeaker creates diffraction losses as longer (lower frequency) sound waves travel along the surface of the front baffle rather then beam forward. This creates problems because these lower frequencies (usually located in the critical midrange response) are 6dB down from the higher frequencies which beam forward. Placing a loudspeaker on top of a TV amplifies these problems by effectively increasing the size of the front baffle, thus creating an effect where vocals can sound nasal and thin. Our EXBAC circuit actually compensates from these losses resulting in an incredibly clean and natural sounding midrange, even when the speaker is placed atop a TV.

Nowhere I've seen in the literature does it tell you what position is on or off from what I've read. I could have missed it. I'm pretty sure it's on with the switch is flipped AWAY from the resistor or towards the closest edge of the PCB. I just used my ears to tell when I used those speakers for a customer. It's really a good idea to turn it off if your center is open to the room on a center channel stand for example in a room with a projector.

PS I think the only dif between the mains and center is the position of that switch, the sticker on the back and the box it comes in.

[chas]

Nowhere I've seen in the literature does it tell you what position is on or off from what I've read. I could have missed it. I'm pretty sure it's on with the switch is flipped AWAY from the resistor or towards the closest edge of the PCB. I just used my ears to tell when I used those speakers for a customer. It's really a good idea to turn it off if your center is open to the room on a center channel stand for example in a room with a projector.

PS I think the only dif between the mains and center is the position of that switch.

For the record here is a recent post by Dave on EXBAC:
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showpost.php?p=38597&postcount=18

[davef]

Have you tried it with both positions of the EXBAC switch? You'll have to temporarily remove one driver to get to the xover. On the xover PCB there is a switch. Flip it to the other position and see if it helps. I think it's the right side midwoofer you remove looking at the baffle. I have a strange feeling this is your issue. Do the people's voices sound... "honky" ?

HINT when you remove a driver untap each screw half way. Slid driver out slightly so you can hold the edges of it's basket while it hangs on the screws.Then remove the BOTTOM ones first. Then remove the last two screws while holding the driver basket edges. Be careful not to hit the cone. It's center of gravity is a little weird for people that haven't handled a driver before.

GOOD LUCK!

HiroPro,

The EXBAC network on our 340SE/SEC crossover is not designed to be a user serviceable option. If a customer orders a 340SE "center", EXBAC is enabled by default and the speaker is tested as such.

That said, enabling / disabling this option is certainly not what is causing a lack of clarity on some source material at extremely loud volumes. Gov has had these speakers for a long time now and I do not recommend opening them up and disabling EXBAC as that will not resolve the issue.


The 340SE is on a mopad at the edge of the top HT equipment rack, just under my wall mounted plasma. I have a Pioneer Elite SC-05 that has a very robust ICEPower amp section. I am using the receiver's room correction and have engaged a slight x-curve. Dialogue at a loud volume seems to sound best this way.
I guess the best way to describe what I hear at times is a harshness with some movie soundtracks, again, only at very loud SPL's. I really do not think my receiver is running out of gas, since it is only dialogue understandability and not everything centered in the center channel. I am thinking maybe the 340 is at its limits or nearing it. I guess it would be hard to tell for sure

130 watts is not that much power, especially when considering that you are using auto room EQ. For example, even something as minor as a +6dB boost of EQ in a specific frequency range will change the available power in this frequency range from 130 watts to a measly 32.5 watts...

The key factor here is that it sounds fine at all volume levels -except- when played extremely loud and with only certain source materials... As an example, auto EQ will often try to compensate for the large dips caused by floor bounce, which are typically found between 200 - 600Hz (lower end of the vocal range). These dips can be huge so even if we assume that your receiver is only applying a small 6dB boost to this range (which is small in comparison to how deep these dips can be), at 12 feet back from the speaker, combining the wattage capability of your amp with the sensitivity of the speaker, your amp will be clipping in part of the vocal range at anything over 92dB. A level which I would consider to be loud, but quite tolerable. When class D amps run out of juice, they tend to sound very edgy and harsh...

I would recommend the following:

Turn auto EQ off then determine if you still hear the harshness using the same source material and same volume level. Granted, without auto EQ it might not sound as good overall, but we are trying to determine what is causing this so that I can make a qualified recommendation as to whether or not the forthcoming STC will fix the issue...

Using an SPL meter, measure the volume level at the listening position when you first start noticing the issue...

It is also important to consider that since this seems to only occur with certain source material, it could very well be an issue with the source material itself. You could also try swapping the center with one of your mains – just to eliminate the possibility that it could be a problem with the individual speaker.

Hope this helps!

[Gov]

Dave,

Excellent response, thanks! I will try your recommendations. I checked the amount of EQ MCACC is applying to the center channel and its adding quite a bit in the 120 to 250hz region (+6 and +4 respectively). The higher frequency regions, it is in the -dB ranges. The funny thing is that I am only noticing this problem with dialogue and otherwise, my system never sounds harsh or edgy. In fact, even in very dynamic scenes like "Transformers 3" it sounds great near reference level.
Also for the record, I always run the Ascends small with an 80Hz XOver since I use a SW.
I wonder if it is in fact my ICE amp running out of steam in the 120 to 250hz region. Maybe adding an Emotiva XPA-3 would help? Or just leave the EQ off so it does not apply any boosting to the speakers.

[HiroPro]

When class D amps run out of juice, they tend to sound very edgy and harsh...

Well it sounds like that could be it! Gov it looks like you like digital amps. Perhaps you should checkout www.classdaudio.com. They do make ready to use amps as well if assembly is to daunting. SDS-254 is jewl of the bunch.

BTW I've used the Ice modules and they don't sound as good as the IR amps to my ears. I also have used those Emotiva amps and love them. They are great "duty" and a good deal "for the money". I have owned/used the XPA series as well as the UPA-1 monoblocks.

Once I started building my own amps with the various kits/modules out there though... I haven't looked back. Even the gainclone chipamps can sound better than a lot of commercial retail stuff out there IMHO.

[HiroPro]

HiroPro,

The EXBAC network on our 340SE/SEC crossover is not designed to be a user serviceable option. If a customer orders a 340SE "center", EXBAC is enabled by default and the speaker is tested as such.

That said, enabling / disabling this option is certainly not what is causing a lack of clarity on some source material at extremely loud volumes. Gov has had these speakers for a long time now and I do not recommend opening them up and disabling EXBAC as that will not resolve the issue.

The off chance idea I had was perhaps it's set to disable on the xover by mistake before it shipped. What he described sounded a lot like midrange diffraction losses. It now sounds a lot more likely his amp is running outta poop.

Curious which direction of the switch is for enable? When I looked at it I tried the non factory setting with it in a wall console and it hurt the midrange. I flipped it back to factory default but because they were not my speakers and it was some time ago I can't remember which direction is enabled.

[Gov]

Dave,

Initally I was incorrect. My auto EQ put a +8dB on the 125Hz band and a minus 0.5dB on the 250Hz. At -5dB MV from reference, I was getting about 87dB on the SPL meter for dialogue from my 15' listening position. I was using "The Wolf" scene in Pulp Fiction BD for the test. It sounded a bit edgy/honky especially when Sam Jackson was speaking. I lowered the 125Hz band to +4dB from +8 and engaged THX post processing. This seemed to help.

I did try it with the EQ completely off and it sounded much brighter and tinny. Did not like the sound much that way. It did help the dialogue issue though.

It is my understanding the most male vocals fall in the 125Hz area so I guess this would make some sense.

Looking forward to any further comments, thnx

[HiroPro]

Gov have you considered some type of acoustic isolation of the center and perhaps lilting it's axis?

Auralex SpeakerDudes HD, Auralex Mopads or ISO Wedges might help. They will isolate the center from your AV console and also allow you to tilt it. You can use a thin piece of foam as well to break the baffle coupling diffraction losses. It's that black foam with very visible bubbles/holes that Raal uses to tweak their other tweeters. If the speaker was sitting on that and the foam protruded past the axis of the front baffle/TV stand the it would break up the midrange coupling to the extended front baffle affect. I'm not sure on what axis this occurs. I would think it would be the vertical axis as that's where the baffle is extended. And it's downwards so that's perfect. You can decouple the center and also prevent those extended baffle issues in one shot. You also might find if you move the center so that it protrudes past the vertical plane of the TV stand that's acting to extend the baffle it might help. Move it 1/2" to 1" past this plane. It should help decouple the midrange from the artificial extended baffle.

It is possible though it's your amp as Dave has suggested. Does it have pre-outs? Perhaps you can try/borrow an amp to see! If you post pictures of the room then we will have a better idea of what is happening acoustically. Please post pictures. What you describe can be both acoustics IE your room and also, and I've experiences this as well with ICE, those modules are running outta juice/poop and your getting distortion. Dave's speakers are efficient/sensitive and can produce ear damaging SPL with relative ease in my experience. You must be talking some serious SPLs.

I would take pictures and video to show us.

[Gov]

Gov have you considered some type of acoustic isolation of the center and perhaps lilting it's axis?

Auralex SpeakerDudes HD, Auralex Mopads or ISO Wedges might help. They will isolate the center from your AV console and also allow you to tilt it. You can use a thin piece of foam as well to break the baffle coupling diffraction losses. It's that black foam with very visible bubbles/holes that Raal uses to tweak their other tweeters. If the speaker was sitting on that and the foam protruded past the axis of the front baffle/TV stand the it would break up the midrange coupling to the extended front baffle affect. I'm not sure on what axis this occurs. I would think it would be the vertical axis as that's where the baffle is extended. And it's downwards so that's perfect. You can decouple the center and also prevent those extended baffle issues in one shot. You also might find if you move the center so that it protrudes past the vertical plane of the TV stand that's acting to extend the baffle it might help. Move it 1/2" to 1" past this plane. It should help decouple the midrange from the artificial extended baffle.

It is possible though it's your amp as Dave has suggested. Does it have pre-outs? Perhaps you can try/borrow an amp to see! If you post pictures of the room then we will have a better idea of what is happening acoustically. Please post pictures. What you describe can be both acoustics IE your room and also, and I've experiences this as well with ICE, those modules are running outta juice/poop and your getting distortion. Dave's speakers are efficient/sensitive and can produce ear damaging SPL with relative ease in my experience. You must be talking some serious SPLs.

I would take pictures and video to show us.

I would post a few pictures but I have to figure out how to reduce the image quality so I can upload them here. I am not very computer savvy I am afraid. I will work on it.

[HiroPro]

I would post a few pictures but I have to figure out how to reduce the image quality so I can upload them here. I am not very computer savvy I am afraid. I will work on it.

Google Faststone Image Viewer. It's FREE!

Also photobucket.com is a great site to upload photo for use online.

[Gov]

Google Faststone Image Viewer. It's FREE!

Also photobucket.com is a great site to upload photo for use online.



Thanks, how is this? These were taken from the couch which is 15' away. Yes, X-Mas decoration on the 340SE center.

527

528

529

[curtis]

First off, try moving the center forward to the front edge the the stand.

[Gov]

First off, try moving the center forward to the front edge the the stand.

Hi Curtis, it is actually flush with the front edge. It is stitting on MoPads. Pictures are not the best, but I can take more ifr necessary.

[curtis]

Hi Curtis, it is actually flush with the front edge. It is stitting on MoPads. Pictures are not the best, but I can take more ifr necessary.
OK...I have a better perception now.

Hey...are you going to sell the ornaments on top of the center as a sound enhancement? :)

[Gov]

OK...I have a better perception now.

Hey...are you going to sell the ornaments on top of the center as a sound enhancement? :)

Everything is for sale if the price is right :p

[davef]

Dave,

Initally I was incorrect. My auto EQ put a +8dB on the 125Hz band and a minus 0.5dB on the 250Hz. At -5dB MV from reference, I was getting about 87dB on the SPL meter for dialogue from my 15' listening position. I was using "The Wolf" scene in Pulp Fiction BD for the test. It sounded a bit edgy/honky especially when Sam Jackson was speaking. I lowered the 125Hz band to +4dB from +8 and engaged THX post processing. This seemed to help.

I did try it with the EQ completely off and it sounded much brighter and tinny. Did not like the sound much that way. It did help the dialogue issue though.

It is my understanding the most male vocals fall in the 125Hz area so I guess this would make some sense.

Looking forward to any further comments, thnx

+8dB is a LOT of boost. Please let me know exactly how far back you are sitting from the center speaker.

[Gov]

+8dB is a LOT of boost. Please let me know exactly how far back you are sitting from the center speaker.

I am 14' away

[Gov]

I slid the center speaker a bit forward so that the front baffle is now hanging over the shelf about 1/2 inch. I reran the EQ and I am still getting +8dB boost in the 125hz band again. Just for reference, I am getting a +5dB for the L/R main speaker.
So, is my receiver getting pushed a bit to much at near reference because of the large boost? Or could it just be a room thing because I have no acoustic treatments

[Gov]

Just an update to this......I lowered the 125hz Eq band from +8 to +5dB and changed the receivers crossover from 80Hz to 100Hz. This seemed to take care of most of my problem :D Dialogue sounds more natural now through the 340SE. Kinda weird that it helped.

[scape]

what encoding is this from? if your avr is upmixing stereo to include a center, then this may be part of the problem. is the source material that you hear distortion from 5.1 dolby? and is your avr engaged in this mode? (it should display this on the front)

[Gov]

what encoding is this from? if your avr is upmixing stereo to include a center, then this may be part of the problem. is the source material that you hear distortion from 5.1 dolby? and is your avr engaged in this mode? (it should display this on the front)

I was using the "Pulp Fiction" Blu-ray as a test because I had noticed it during several dialogue scenes in the movie. I am bitstreaming "DTS HD Master" via HDMI from my PS3 to my Pioneer SC-05 receiver. The SC-05 does no additional processing just passes the audio thru to my 340's

[millerwill]

Any up-date on when the Tower Center will ship?

[davef]

I am 14' away

Sorry for the delay, I have been swamped.

At 14' back with a +8dB boost in the 125Hz range, your amp will be clipping at anything over 89dB in this frequency range. Considering the dynamic peaks in home theater sources, I strongly suspect that this is what you are experiencing. Cutting the amplifier boost in half (from +8 to +4) will probably still sound quite good and give you much more available headroom.

The large dip at 125Hz is most likely floor bounce. If possible, you might try changing the vertical height of your center speaker and then re-running Audyssey. This might help considerably.

[davef]

Just an update to this......I lowered the 125hz Eq band from +8 to +5dB and changed the receivers crossover from 80Hz to 100Hz. This seemed to take care of most of my problem :D Dialogue sounds more natural now through the 340SE. Kinda weird that it helped.

This makes a lot of sense actually... Changing the boost from +8 to +5 gives you twice as much available headroom in your amplifier.

[Gov]

This makes a lot of sense actually... Changing the boost from +8 to +5 gives you twice as much available headroom in your amplifier.

Do you think that changing the crossover from 80Hz to 100Hz would have helped as well?

[davef]

Do you think that changing the crossover from 80Hz to 100Hz would have helped as well?

Possibly, because I suspect that you are getting a lot of floor bounce in this frequency range and moving the crossover higher will send more of those frequencies to the subwoofer.

[Gov]

^^Interesting, thanks Dave and Happy New Year!

[scape]

Pioneer SC-05 receiver... does no additional processing just passes the audio thru to my 340's

it would have to do some processing to decode the dolby stream from hdmi and dish it out to the speakers. have you had any luck with your issue? have you considered running it without any eq present? mcaac disabled does not necessarily mean an eq is disabled, does it? i don't know, i never used this avr before

[Gov]

It is a bit better with the 125Hz band lowered to +5dB from +8dB. Also, I upped the crossover to 100Hz from 80Hz.

The Pioneer receivers actually pass the audio "as is" from the source and apply not additional molesting of the signal to the speakers. I cannot say enough about these Elite receivers with the class D amps, they are great!