denpuresound's quest for speakers

[DenPureSound]

Ascent Tower w/ the RAAL Ribbon Tweeter -- where are the Anechoic Chamber measured Plots?

Before I spend 1,000's of dollars just for FRONTS (FL/FR) I want to see the "Anechoic Chamber" measurement plots for On and Off Axis responses, Reverse Null, Complex Impedance Plot, System Bass Response, Woofer and Port Response, Overall System Output at say 40-50 Watts (SPL vs. Freq.), and lastly Port Air Velocity Percentage (Hopefully less than 5% of the speed of sound) which will peak at lower freq's. usually around 20-30 Hz.

Forget the quotes, they sound good, they are nice and smooth... the actual measurements will "TELL THE STORY" regarding how good of an Audiophile Speaker they are.

Forget Klipsch/Def. Tech./B&W, as they have no measured plots out there that they will give the potential buyer!!

Now, KEF/REVEL Salons/Linkwitz-Orions/Philharmonic Audio --- you can get all their Measured Plots from the chamber -- that says one heck of a lot -- Period.

Bottom line, I want ACCURATE Speakers -- so let's see the measured DATA from the Chamber.

[Jonnyozero3]

Hi, welcome to the forum. Dave & Ascend are usually very good at providing a wealth of data, as you can see in this forum and on the site.

I am confident Davef will provide as many graphs of such as possible when he is able. Making requests for additional data he hasn't provided with previous models is apropos. Demanding he do so is a bit rude.


Ascent Tower w/ the RAAL Ribbon Tweeter -- where are the Anechoic Chamber measured Plots?

Before I spend 1,000's of dollars just for FRONTS (FL/FR) I want to see the "Anechoic Chamber" measurement plots for On and Off Axis responses, Reverse Null, Complex Impedance Plot, System Bass Response, Woofer and Port Response, Overall System Output at say 40-50 Watts (SPL vs. Freq.), and lastly Port Air Velocity Percentage (Hopefully less than 5% of the speed of sound) which will peak at lower freq's. usually around 20-30 Hz.

Forget the quotes, they sound good, they are nice and smooth... the actual measurements will "TELL THE STORY" regarding how good of an Audiophile Speaker they are.

Forget Klipsch/Def. Tech./B&W, as they have no measured plots out there that they will give the potential buyer!!

Now, KEF/REVEL Salons/Linkwitz-Orions/Philharmonic Audio --- you can get all their Measured Plots from the chamber -- that says one heck of a lot -- Period.

Bottom line, I want ACCURATE Speakers -- so let's see the measured DATA from the Chamber.

[DenPureSound]

Excuse you.. I am not Rude :), but a true "ULTIMATE AUDIOPHILE" - being in this business for over 35 years, and the specs/plots will speak for themselves!

I am not stating that Ascend has to produce plots, but w/o them it is like "Guessing" totally, whether or not the Towers are ACCURATE or not, and that is FACT.

[Jonnyozero3]

Lol. OKAY THEN.

Edit - Disregard me, please continue.

[curtis]

I would also encourage you to call or email Dave. You two would probably have a lot to talk about.

[DenPureSound]

Curtis,

Thank you.

Dave is aware of my requests, and I am sure he will address the Measured Plot Data as his time allows.

I am very curious how the RAAL Ribbon Tweeter performs above the Xover, and whether the speaker overall on/off axis is Accurate.

Is Dave using a 4th Order Linkwitz-Riley (LR4) 24db/octave for Xovers, or 2nd Order 12db/octave LR2 design? :)

Regards,
Dennis

[curtis]

Curtis,

Thank you.

Dave is aware of my requests, and I am sure he will address the Measured Plot Data as his time allows.

I am very curious how the RAAL Ribbon Tweeter performs above the Xover, and whether the speaker overall on/off axis is Accurate.

Is Dave using a 4th Order Linkwitz-Riley (LR4) 24db/octave for Xovers, or 2nd Order 12db/octave LR2 design? :)

Then why did you make your initial post? ;)

The crossover is a variable slope, so I am not sure if it fits in either of those two designs. Have you read the information I linked to OPPIX?

[DenPureSound]

Then why did you make your initial post? ;)

The crossover is a variable slope, so I am not sure if it fits in either of those two designs. Have you read the information I linked to OPPIX?

Posts were prior to talking to Ascend. ;) and YES I read the OPPIX data posts. Thank you.

Is this OPPIX basically a Patented Design for Xovers or and Active Xover design in terms that ALL CAN UNDERSTAND.

I guess with OPPIX implemented then ALL THE FACTS WILL PROVE OUT, when the Anechoic Chamber plot data for On and Off Axis measurements substantiates it.

[Sam1000]

I think it's a reasonable request before spending $$ on towers and RAAL upgrade. Any new buyer would want to see this information.

On the other hand the FR gets totally skewed in home environment:-) even with room correction software :-( I have the FR graphs that are accompanied with each speaker and they are impressive. The REW graphs look totally different though. Of course, I'm measuring the FR using RadioShack meter as opposed to obscenely expensive microphones.

[davef]

Ascent Tower w/ the RAAL Ribbon Tweeter -- where are the Anechoic Chamber measured Plots?

Before I spend 1,000's of dollars just for FRONTS (FL/FR) I want to see the "Anechoic Chamber" measurement plots for On and Off Axis responses, Reverse Null, Complex Impedance Plot, System Bass Response, Woofer and Port Response, Overall System Output at say 40-50 Watts (SPL vs. Freq.), and lastly Port Air Velocity Percentage (Hopefully less than 5% of the speed of sound) which will peak at lower freq's. usually around 20-30 Hz.

Forget the quotes, they sound good, they are nice and smooth... the actual measurements will "TELL THE STORY" regarding how good of an Audiophile Speaker they are.

Forget Klipsch/Def. Tech./B&W, as they have no measured plots out there that they will give the potential buyer!!

Now, KEF/REVEL Salons/Linkwitz-Orions/Philharmonic Audio --- you can get all their Measured Plots from the chamber -- that says one heck of a lot -- Period.

Bottom line, I want ACCURATE Speakers -- so let's see the measured DATA from the Chamber.


Excuse you.. I am not Rude :), but a true "ULTIMATE AUDIOPHILE" - being in this business for over 35 years, and the specs/plots will speak for themselves!

I am not stating that Ascend has to produce plots, but w/o them it is like "Guessing" totally, whether or not the Towers are ACCURATE or not, and that is FACT.

Wow – a lot of irony here. We were the first ID audio company to publish and promote detailed measurements and we were the first to send our products to the NRC for “TRUE” third party anechoic measurements.

Dennis, I am pleased to hear that you are interested in our Sierra Towers. However, we are a friendly laid-back group here and your post comes across as demanding and a bit out of place. I, more than anyone, can understand your desire to see various measurements but you should also know that comparing “manufacturer” posted measurements is not completely reliable. Many of the measurements you mention are not conducted in an anechoic chamber and many still are just modeled simulations.

If you browse our site and do a bit more reading, you will see extremely detailed and accurate measurements of all of our advertised loudspeakers. We use industry standard measurement gear, which includes two full MLSSA systems, reference grade ACO Pacific microphones and a fully automated turntable for taking accurate off-axis measurements. Our equipment is actually calibrated to the gear used at the NRC.

Still, even with a full suite of measurements – you will not be able to determine which is the more “accurate” loudspeaker. For example, what do you consider to be an accurate off-axis response? Do you expect a gentle and linear off-axis roll-off or do you expect a flat off-axis response? What ‘exactly’ does a reverse null plot even show? Move the microphone an inch in any direction and a steep and clean reverse null plot completely falls apart. How does a complex impedance plot determine loudspeaker accuracy (provided it is clean from wrinkles) or port tube air velocity for that matter (which will peak at port tuning, not at an arbitrary number.) I have spent 27+ years professionally evaluating loudspeaker measurements and in this time I have developed a suite of measurements that I feel offer keen insight into loudspeaker accuracy. These include soundpower response, various on- and off-axis measurements and various weighted average comparisons, both anechoic and first and even second reflections (all of our measurements are time domain based.)

Every designer will have their personal opinion as to which measurements matter and which don’t – and ultimately, the market will determine if we got it right or wrong. Based on how many loudspeakers I have personally designed and sold in my too many years in this industry, I can say without hesitation that we got something right ;)

Our standard suite of measurements will be posted soon.

All that said, our Sierra Towers and many of the other loudspeakers you are considering are very different from your Klipsch RF7-II. Obviously, there is something about them you are not quite happy with and I would be happy to discuss with you to determine if our products offer what you are looking for.

[DenPureSound]

I think it's a reasonable request before spending $$ on towers and RAAL upgrade. Any new buyer would want to see this information.

On the other hand the FR gets totally skewed in home environment:-) even with room correction software :-( I have the FR graphs that are accompanied with each speaker and they are impressive. The REW graphs look totally different though. Of course, I'm measuring the FR using RadioShack meter as opposed to obscenely expensive microphones.

Exactly what I was saying, your right on Sam!! :):D

For supporting accurate measurements in your listening room or theater, you will want to buy the high-quality microphone, and the companion piece of hardware called the iAudioInterface (Around $400). And certainly, the plots will look totally different than the anechoic chamber plots, but with Ruler-Flat chamber plots, you know what the Ref. Speaker can do, the rest is dialing in the room, and once that is accomplished, sit back and listen to some superb .flac or .wav tunes, and then have a cold Beer, and call your neighbors over!! :)

[DenPureSound]

Wow – a lot of irony here. We were the first ID audio company to publish and promote detailed measurements and we were the first to send our products to the NRC for “TRUE” third party anechoic measurements.

Dennis, I am pleased to hear that you are interested in our Sierra Towers. However, we are a friendly laid-back group here and your post comes across as demanding and a bit out of place. I, more than anyone, can understand your desire to see various measurements but you should also know that comparing “manufacturer” posted measurements is not completely reliable. Many of the measurements you mention are not conducted in an anechoic chamber and many still are just modeled simulations.

If you browse our site and do a bit more reading, you will see extremely detailed and accurate measurements of all of our advertised loudspeakers. We use industry standard measurement gear, which includes two full MLSSA systems, reference grade ACO Pacific microphones and a fully automated turntable for taking accurate off-axis measurements. Our equipment is actually calibrated to the gear used at the NRC.

Still, even with a full suite of measurements – you will not be able to determine which is the more “accurate” loudspeaker. For example, what do you consider to be an accurate off-axis response? Do you expect a gentle and linear off-axis roll-off or do you expect a flat off-axis response? What ‘exactly’ does a reverse null plot even show? Move the microphone an inch in any direction and a steep and clean reverse null plot completely falls apart. How does a complex impedance plot determine loudspeaker accuracy (provided it is clean from wrinkles) or port tube air velocity for that matter (which will peak at port tuning, not at an arbitrary number.) I have spent 27+ years professionally evaluating loudspeaker measurements and in this time I have developed a suite of measurements that I feel offer keen insight into loudspeaker accuracy. These include soundpower response, various on- and off-axis measurements and various weighted average comparisons, both anechoic and first and even second reflections (all of our measurements are time domain based.)

Every designer will have their personal opinion as to which measurements matter and which don’t – and ultimately, the market will determine if we got it right or wrong. Based on how many loudspeakers I have personally designed and sold in my too many years in this industry, I can say without hesitation that we got something right ;)

Our standard suite of measurements will be posted soon.

All that said, our Sierra Towers and many of the other loudspeakers you are considering are very different from your Klipsch RF7-II. Obviously, there is something about them you are not quite happy with and I would be happy to discuss with you to determine if our products offer what you are looking for.

David, well stated excluding the fact that those mfg's. I posted did do Anechoic Chamber Plots for On/Off Axis FR measurements, and listening window averages, and we look forward to viewing your Standard Suite of Measurement plots for your Towers.

I am sure your Towers are Great, otherwise I would not be asking these questions, let alone even looking at Ascend Acoustics.

Many buyers of speakers only go by what they hear, and some textual data w/o any plots from the chamber or for that matter anywhere, as you are certainly aware of.

Yes, your right on, I am very Unhappy with Klipsch speakers, as all the measurements I have seen are like +/- 5.2db even On-Axis !! I am looking for a truely Accurate Reference Speaker that the measurements will prove it is.

We will be looking for those Measurement posts upcoming, and Thank You.

Cheers,
Dennis

[curtis]

Now, KEF/REVEL Salons/Linkwitz-Orions/Philharmonic Audio --- you can get all their Measured Plots from the chamber -- that says one heck of a lot -- Period.



David, well stated excluding the fact that those mfg's. I posted did do Anechoic Chamber Plots for On/Off Axis FR measurements, and listening window averages, and we look forward to viewing your Standard Suite of Measurement plots for your Towers.
Actually, I don't think Linkwitz-Orion or Philharmonic use an actual anechoic chamber, but get pseudo anechoic measurements via gated responses.

[curtis]

Yes, your right on, I am very Unhappy with Klipsch speakers, as all the measurements I have seen are like +/- 5.2db even On-Axis !! I am looking for a truely Accurate Reference Speaker that the measurements will prove it is.

Why did you purchase the Klipsch speakers?

[DenPureSound]

Actually, I don't think Linkwitz-Orion or Philharmonic use an actual anechoic chamber, but get pseudo anechoic measurements via gated responses.

Curtis, not so per Philharmonic Audio PH3's web site, it specifically states above 200Hz. and explains why, and are "Anechoic" measurements. Read down under Freq. Response and Impedance Measurements on the first page.

Also, for a $3K pair of speakers, there are about 15 Plots or so for a potential buyer to digest. Extensive data is shown (approx. 15 or so Plots) even for their Phil 1 and 2's at around $2K/Pair. :)

[DenPureSound]

Why did you purchase the Klipsch speakers?

Brand Name that I thought was great when I compared them to a few other speakers in that price range back then.

Audio is a learning curve, like living life is. Some learn, some don't ever. Hopefully, most read and learn.

Do you see any plots for Klipsch RF-7II's at $3.2K/Pair? There should be for that much money. :D

I am setting the Klipsch's aside, and they will be replaced with "Accurate Reference Speakers" in the near term -- the question is what Mfg. and Model number. :)

[DenPureSound]

Why did you purchase the Klipsch speakers?

Curtis, what Mfg. and Model are you running for your Front Main Stereo Towers or ? :)

[curtis]

Curtis, not so per Philharmonic Audio PH3's web site, it specifically states above 200Hz. and explains why, and are "Anechoic" measurements. Read down under Freq. Response and Impedance Measurements on the first page.

Also, for a $3K pair of speakers, there are about 15 Plots or so for a potential buyer to digest. Extensive data is shown (approx. 15 or so Plots) even for their Phil 1 and 2's at around $2K/Pair. :)
That's because gated pseudo-anechoic measurements are only good down to about 200hz. They do not use an actual chamber. You should ask that question specifically.

I am not saying it is bad, just that you are incorrect in stating that they use an actual chamber.

[curtis]

Brand Name that I thought was great when I compared them to a few other speakers in that price range back then.

Audio is a learning curve, like living life is. Some learn, some don't ever. Hopefully, most read and learn.

Do you see any plots for Klipsch RF-7II's at $3.2K/Pair? There should be for that much money. :D

I am setting the Klipsch's aside, and they will be replaced with "Accurate Reference Speakers" in the near term -- the question is what Mfg. and Model number. :)
Like David mentioned in his post, you need to define accuracy.

[curtis]

Curtis, what Mfg. and Model are you running for your Front Main Stereo Towers or ? :)
I don't use towers...I use Sierra 1's.

[davef]

Curtis, not so per Philharmonic Audio PH3's web site, it specifically states above 200Hz. and explains why, and are "Anechoic" measurements. Read down under Freq. Response and Impedance Measurements on the first page.

Dennis,

You are incorrect. Those are not chamber measurements, DM does not have an anechoic chamber -- very few loudspeaker companies / designers actually do. It is BECAUSE the measurements stop at 200Hz why they were not taken in a chamber ;)

If they were in a true anechoic chamber, they would extend down accurately to 40Hz or below (depending on what the chamber is actually tuned to)

You do not need an anechoic chamber to take accurate anechoic measurements. Curtis is correct, the measurements are pseudo-anechoic or sometimes called quasi-anechoic. With the proper equipment and knowledge, reflections can be gated out of the response by calculating a Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) on a limited time domain window (impulse response), typically 5-7 milliseconds in length. Anything outside of this window size is meaningless. In addition, the smaller the gate time the less resolution in the actual measurement so while we are removing reflections from the measurement, we are also limiting resolution of the entire measurement. It is because of this why we still prefer to use MLSSA systems for our measurement gear. MLSSA offers an "Adaptive Window" mode which allows it to maintain excellent resolution in gated measurements. However, MLSSA is brutally expensive and requires years of experience as it is absolutely NOT user friendly. It is, however, still used extensively and considered an industry standard.

There are as many techniques to obtaining accurate gated measurements as there are measurements themselves. It is because of confusion/misunderstanding like this why I mentioned comparing measurements from one manufacturer to another is often meaningless. I can make a loudspeaker look fantastic in one method or poorly in another.

Compare manufacturer claimed anechoic measurements to actual NRC measurements (taken in a true chamber.) You are going to see many surprising differences.

Hope this makes sense.

Please take any further discussion of the matter off-line. This thread is about the Sierra Towers.

[billy p]

As usual Dave, handled with class!:)

[RicardoJoa]

Also, for a $3K pair of speakers, there are about 15 Plots or so for a potential buyer to digest. Extensive data is shown (approx. 15 or so Plots) even for their Phil 1 and 2's at around $2K/Pair. :)

Well, there are 0 graphs for customers or potential client for the $4000+ Salk ht2tl and there are MILLIONS of happy customers:p, what is your point?

If you dig deep enough there are actually "graphs" of the standard sierra towers.

[DenPureSound]

Well, there are 0 graphs for customers or potential client for the $4000+ Salk ht2tl and there are MILLIONS of happy customers:p, what is your point?

If you dig deep enough there are actually "graphs" of the standard sierra towers.

Not correct at all. :p There are tests if you go to the Salk web site, and click on Measurements of the HT2-TL, then you will see some plots! :cool:

Also, J. Salk has NOT SOLD Millions of those either, way OFF base. :D

If you have data showing how many SongTowers, HT2-TL, HT3, SS10 and SS12's have been sold bring it forward, as your Magnitude associated with the number of sales for these models is way off the mark, Salk is not Sony.

Also, the NHT Absolute Zero's specs go right against the Sierra 1's, and are even more Ruler Flat +/-1db and they sell for $200 per speaker! The Sierra 1's have a large dip at 3kHz. vs. the NHT's.

So, what was your incorrect point all about? :eek:

[Sam1000]

Not correct at all. :p There are tests if you go to the Salk web site, and click on Measurements of the HT2-TL, then you will see some plots! :cool:

Also, J. Salk has NOT SOLD Millions of those either, way OFF base. :D

If you have data showing how many SongTowers, HT2-TL, HT3, SS10 and SS12's have been sold bring it forward, as your Magnitude associated with the number of sales for these models is way off the mark, Salk is not Sony.

Also, the NHT Absolute Zero's specs go right against the Sierra 1's, and are even more Ruler Flat +/-1db and they sell for $200 per speaker! The Sierra 1's have a large dip at 3kHz. vs. the NHT's.

So, what was your incorrect point all about? :eek:

Hi Dennis:
Looks like you will be really happy with $200 NHT Absolute. I'm not sure why you are wasting your time on this and other numerous other forums unless you have an hidden agenda. Buy your reference FR speaker(NHT), dial in your room with iAudioInterface and be done with it. You will come out light years ahead of all of us. Don't forget to share your in room response of your ruler flat speaker.
Sorry guys for feeding the troll here. This is my last post replying to him.

[DenPureSound]

Hi Dennis:
Looks like you will be really happy with $200 NHT Absolute. I'm not sure why you are wasting your time on this and other numerous other forums unless you have an hidden agenda. Buy your reference FR speaker(NHT), dial in your room with iAudioInterface and be done with it. You will come out light years ahead of all of us. Don't forget to share your in room response of your ruler flat speaker.
Sorry guys for feeding the troll here. This is my last post replying to him.

Last post here, off to NHT and Revel Salon 2's. No hidden agenda, just FACTS. :):eek:

[billy p]

Last post here, off to NHT and Revel Salon 2's. No hidden agenda, just FACTS. :):eek:

You probally suffer from hearing damage having listened to those Klipsch all those yrs....;)

[RicardoJoa]

Not correct at all. :p There are tests if you go to the Salk web site, and click on Measurements of the HT2-TL, then you will see some plots! :cool:

Also, J. Salk has NOT SOLD Millions of those either, way OFF base. :D

If you have data showing how many SongTowers, HT2-TL, HT3, SS10 and SS12's have been sold bring it forward, as your Magnitude associated with the number of sales for these models is way off the mark, Salk is not Sony.

Also, the NHT Absolute Zero's specs go right against the Sierra 1's, and are even more Ruler Flat +/-1db and they sell for $200 per speaker! The Sierra 1's have a large dip at 3kHz. vs. the NHT's.

So, what was your incorrect point all about? :eek:

Well ok, im seriously not seeing the "measurement" page of Salk you are refering. Could you refer me to it? Dont get me wrong im not bashing about Salk at all. And Jim should know better. My point is, not every one who buy speaker need to have some sort of measurement that they can see.

As far millions HT2tl sold, im just joking, my point is, there are quiet a lot of happy customers.

The Sierra dip @3Khz are in between 2.5KHZ-3.5KHZ, I see around 3-3.5 db dip on it. A FR withing +/-1db could still have a 2 db dip. The good thing is Dave had published everything and nothing is hidden. The $2000 Songtower has dip too and i dont see any one complaining. In fact the nht will go against alot of other speaker that fall within +/_3 range not just the sierra. Though i cant find that piece of info on their site.

[edmondwolfman]

Well ok, im seriously not seeing the "measurement" page of Salk you are refering. Could you refer me to it? Dont get me wrong im not bashing about Salk at all. And Jim should know better. My point is, not every one who buy speaker need to have some sort of measurement that they can see.

As far millions HT2tl sold, im just joking, my point is, there are quiet a lot of happy customers.

The Sierra dip @3Khz are in between 2.5KHZ-3.5KHZ, I see around 3-3.5 db dip on it. A FR withing +/-1db could still have a 2 db dip. The good thing is Dave had published everything and nothing is hidden. The $2000 Songtower has dip too and i dont see any one complaining.

I've actually seen at least 1 poster, quite knowledgible in the audio field state that he wished the speaker he was listening to at home had a slight dip in the 2.5kHz - 3.5kHz range as that is the part that comes across as too forward for him on most recordings.

My 2.1 channel music has no equilization or tone controls but just for "testing" I have run through my Denon 3808 and used the manual equalization to lower settings in that band (2.5 to 3.5) and I can say on a lot of recordings I actually also preferred the music with my artificial dip in that area.

[davef]

Also, the NHT Absolute Zero's specs go right against the Sierra 1's, and are even more Ruler Flat +/-1db and they sell for $200 per speaker! The Sierra 1's have a large dip at 3kHz. vs. the NHT's.

You are joking, right? Do you really think the NHT Absolute Zero specs are comparable to our Sierra-1 or are you just trolling? Actually, the Absolute Zero, while indeed a great speaker for the money, is comparable to our $100 less per pair, HTM-200SE.

Where do you get +/-1 dB for the AZ? I don't see any measurements on NHT's site ;) Here is the only 3rd party measurement I can find of the zero: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-nht-absolute-51t-speaker-system?page=0,3 That response is certainly not +/- 1dB and I see a fairly prominent dip at 1.5kHz followed by a nasty peak (dips followed by even larger peaks are typically quite annoying to listen too) -- and these measurements are extensively smoothed to 1/3 octave.

Shall we examine... Sierra-1 vs Absolute Zero

Bamboo cabinet vs MDF?
-3dB point of 44Hz vs -3dB at 77Hz (and I have my doubts about this)
20 pound speaker vs 8 pound speaker?
100 watt peak power handling vs 200-400 watts

The two speakers are in entirely different leagues.

That said, if you are serious about the zero's and not simply trolling, why haven't you considered our CBM-170 or even answered the questions I have asked of you? Here are verifiable 3rd party chamber measurements: http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/ascend_cbm170/ and you will notice that the measurements they took match ours.

The 170 is in an elite group of 3-4 speakers representing the flattest loudspeaker ever measured by SoundStage at the NRC. The listening window and on-axis measurements are at worst, +/- 1dB and with even a minor bit of research, you will quickly learn that our 170's have become the speaker of choice for various universities and research scientists due to its remarkable "accuracy"...

Still, for me and for nearly all of our customers who have compared the two speakers directly, -- the vast majority of listeners prefer the Sierra-1. Why do you think that is? Certainly the on-axis posted measurements favor the 170's (and a pair of these still cost less than the Zero's and also provide better overall specs)


The Sierra 1's have a large dip at 3kHz. vs. the NHT's

Actually, the dip in the response at 3.25kHz is a diffraction artifact and even basic knowledge of loudspeaker design and sound propagation would reveal this. Do the math yourself... the cabinet width is 7.5 inches with 3/8" roundover edges and the tweeter is center positioned. This translates to an equivalent baffle width of 8.25". This places the tweeter position at 4.125" which effectively means that the tweeter sees (2) diffraction edges at 4.125". 4.125" is equivalent to a wavelength of.......(cue drum roll) ~3.2kHz.

Because this dip is due to diffraction, the dip completely disappears off-axis, as evidenced by the Sierra-1's remarkable off-axis measurements.

Dennis, if we are going to continue down this path I would very much like you to share with us your definition of accuracy and how it relates to your interpretation of what you have described as loudspeaker facts.

For example, with regard to your definition of accuracy:

What do you expect to see in an on-axis frequency response graph and what is acceptable to you with regard to how the measurement was taken?

What do you expect to see in horizontal off-axis measurements? What about vertical?

What is the acceptable bandwidth of the speaker?

What is the acceptable dynamic range of the speaker and how accurate must the speaker produce transients?

And what about cabinet resonance modes? How inert must the cabinet be? What about acceptable rub and buzz levels? For example, a tweeter with a high level of “buzz” can certainly measure as flat as a non buzzing tweeter but since it is producing unwanted levels of excess noise – I know that I would not call it accurate even though its on- and off-axis response measurements are perfect…


And finally, from other posts I have read – you loved the way your Klipsch speakers sounded and it was only until you learned that they did not measure as flat on axis as you would have liked (did not meet your interpretation of accuracy) that you began your hunt for what you consider to be more accurate speakers.

I would say your Klipsch are amongst some of the most dynamically and transient accurate speakers available in their price range. If your goal is purely frequency response accuracy, look no further than our CBM-170 (it is tough to beat.) If your goal is a combination of (with sacrifices of course) response accuracy, dynamics, resolution and transients – our Sierra Towers are an excellent choice. If you want pure accuracy in all aspects, I recommend purchasing a superb 500 watt amplifier and a pair of TAD Reference 1’s and be done with it. Although don’t be surprised if those Reference 1’s have a few dips in the on-axis response – all coaxial drivers do but they provide superior off-axis response. Which is more accurate ;)

[RicardoJoa]

Gosh!!! This is the guy who compares speakers through youtube video at audioholics.:eek: And he is been questioning DM at audioholics like a kid question his father.

[DougMac]

A big round of applause for Dave for handling the situation both directly and with aplomb. Well designed and built speakers that sound great is the name of the game, but it is nice to deal with a company which consistently takes the high road.

[edmondwolfman]

A big round of applause for Dave for handling the situation both directly and with aplomb. Well designed and built speakers that sound great is the name of the game, but it is nice to deal with a company which consistently takes the high road.

+1. I find it hard to b!tch slap someone and still be classy about it :D Dave you are a gentleman!

As far as the Sierra-1s being well built speakers, I can tell you they are solid little buggers and when you give them the rap test it sounds like you are knocking on a solid piece of wood!

[Jonnyozero3]

Dennis,

If this level of response and commentary is not what you anticipated, I just want to say honestly (and kindly) that often times excitement and enthusiasm does not translate well when read via text over the internet - for example, caps locked words, very direct, commanding sentences, etc.

We all have something to learn (hell, I've been on this forum for...8 years and had no idea about that 3.5kHz dip thing davef described) - this is a very knowledgeable community who are willing to help if you are willing to learn alongside us.

Good luck in your search for a speaker. Might I suggest listening to Ascends in person if you are able? What country/state are you from? Often, many Ascend owners will open their homes for a demo in exchange for a beer ;)

PS: A close friend of mine had Klipsch RF-7 towers for years, he went to Dunlavy after them and never looked back (He has SC-IVs now). Frankly, after awhile he was amazed he ever liked the RF-7s. He's heard my Sierra-1s on countless occasions and still lists them as an absolutely incredible speaker. He's dying to hear my new Sierra Towers.

[davef]

Dennis,

If this level of response and commentary is not what you anticipated, I just want to say honestly (and kindly) that often times excitement and enthusiasm does not translate well when read via text over the internet - for example, caps locked words, very direct, commanding sentences, etc.

We all have something to learn (hell, I've been on this forum for...8 years and had no idea about that 3.5kHz dip thing davef described) - this is a very knowledgeable community who are willing to help if you are willing to learn alongside us.

Good luck in your search for a speaker. Might I suggest listening to Ascends in person if you are able? What country/state are you from? Often, many Ascend owners will open their homes for a demo in exchange for a beer ;)

PS: A close friend of mine had Klipsch RF-7 towers for years, he went to Dunlavy after them and never looked back (He has SC-IVs now). Frankly, after awhile he was amazed he ever liked the RF-7s. He's heard my Sierra-1s on countless occasions and still lists them as an absolutely incredible speaker. He's dying to hear my new Sierra Towers.

Thanks for the wonderful post!!

[Blutarsky]

WOW!

One reason I view this site is the absence of Trolls and other Audiophylums.

Ascend has a 30 day guarantee. The only valid test is in your own room, with your own two ears, after lots of set up effort. So, ante up.

Blutarsky

[choirbass]

WOW!

One reason I view this site is the absence of Trolls and other Audiophylums.

Ascend has a 30 day guarantee. The only valid test is in your own room, with your own two ears, after lots of set up effort. So, ante up.

Blutarsky

That's more what I was thinking too, with the 30 day trial, he could've only been a troll. It's not like he was purchasing the speakers without any kind of in-person reassurance beforehand.. he certainly tried to make it sound that way though, that he was guaranteed not to be happy with them, and would have no way to return them if by chance he really wasn't happy.

But like his other research, he probably didn't look to really find out.. if he was even interested to begin with. It didn't seem he seriously was.. that he instead was more interested in playing games than anything.

[boludaso]

Its unfortunate there are individuals that would post something with such disdain towards the individuals that share this forum. And then to pass that on to Dave who has EARNED the respect all of us have towards him. That respect is well short of deification, but find me another business owner that takes the time Dave has with, most likely, all of us at one time in the past. As well, he posts information that could be considered trade secrets for anyone to read.

My thanks to Dave for showing all of us AGAIN how to be a gentleman in a situation that really didn't call for it. And for not only building great speakers we all love, but also heading up altruistic ventures for cancer. In my book Dave, you are truly a class act. A compliment for you and your parents.

[JustaSheep]

Its unfortunate there are individuals that would post something with such disdain towards the individuals that share this forum. And then to pass that on to Dave who has EARNED the respect all of us have towards him. That respect is well short of deification, but find me another business owner that takes the time Dave has with, most likely, all of us at one time in the past. As well, he posts information that could be considered trade secrets for anyone to read.

My thanks to Dave for showing all of us AGAIN how to be a gentleman in a situation that really didn't call for it. And for not only building great speakers we all love, but also heading up altruistic ventures for cancer. In my book Dave, you are truly a class act. A compliment for you and your parents.

+1.

[buddhadas]

Ditto!
Really well put boludaso!!

[HiroPro]

Gosh!!! This is the guy who compares speakers through youtube video at audioholics.:eek: And he is been questioning DM at audioholics like a kid question his father.

ROTFL

It's also worth noting that the internet is rife with sock-puppetry and astroturfing. I'm not saying this guy wasn't a real person, it's just worth noting and understanding that many companies hire PR firms to do stuff like this guy did here.

[billy p]

I wouldn't be one bit suprised if he worked along those lines or in the A/V industry in general. He appears to have a fair amount of knowledge but he is one evasive SOG and rides the coatails of other forum regulars whom he defers too when it comes to answering questions . IMHO...he is a TROLL....:rolleyes:

[HiroPro]

I don't have concrete evidence but I'm certain that some of the "fanboy" groups that frequent certain LARGE MAINSTREAM A/V sites/forums are in fact simply marketing astroturfing and sock-puppetry PR people/firms. This same LARGE MAINSTREAM A/V site also seems to turns a blind eye from what I've seen...

Possibly because the same outfits also pay for banner/adspace :rolleyes:

This is a real problem on the internet and especially bad in politics.

[davef]

Guys,

Dennis has "left the building" so to speak and we wish him the best in his personal quest for loudspeakers. I know he upset many of you in the way he handled things on our forum, including myself, but we should move past this now.

I am going to close this thread unless the OP would like to report back to us on his quest.