Got sierra-1 nrt's!

[1965]

Hello all,
I will post extended review later.... Right now I need help! Got them yesterday, was able to get them installed today. I have only been able to listen for 10-15 minutes. Installed in family room, have to share with wife and son. In the short time I had with music it became glaringly obvious that I need a better cd player. I knew this when I got my cbm-170se's. It just was not THIS obvious.
I currently have a vintage 1991 technics 5 disc changer. Yes, please go ahead and LYAO. I bought it new at circuit city and it still works! Just does not sound good anymore! Imagine that.
Can you guys give me a heads up on a under 600.00 dollar player. Looking at Oppo. Just talked to David, He said Marantz . Probably go with that unless arm is twisted in oyher direction.

[kma100]

I suspect you won't go wrong with either option. Take a look at the specs - there might be some differences in the processing chips used. Oppo is typically pretty highly regarded.

[Steve53]

How about a Virtue Audio Piano? Sells new for $699. If you're shopping used, I have an Ah! Tjoeb 4000 which is Marantz based that I am not presently using. Recommend you start a new thread for this topic.

[GirgleMirt]

You are aware that there's pretty much no audible between cd players right? I have a NAD541i something I think it is, which was well regarded at the time, that I picked up used for around 200$, I compared it to an old cheapo 100$ Panasonic DVD player, and as logic dictated I was unable to hear any difference... (Think it was a 4 or 5 hundred dollar or something... 500$.. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_4/nad-c541i-cd-player-10-2002.html) Btw, not really using the cd player anymore, almost exclusively a laptop feeding digital to an external DAC (Behringer DEQ2496), lossless easily beats switching CDs, and digital->DAC was a must because audio out of the laptop really was horrible...

Unless there's a glaring deficiency with your current cd player, you probably won't gain much if anything by spending 6 or 8 hundred... So depending how comfortable you are with your wallet, you might want to spend that money on better things... For audio, room treatment would make a real difference, and depending on your amp, maybe that... 600$ almost gets you a rythmik sub too...

[curtis]

girgle....maybe the analog outs are the problem.

[GirgleMirt]

girgle....maybe the analog outs are the problem.

Possible, but "unless there's a glaring deficiency with your current cd player, you probably won't gain much if anything by spending 6 or 8 hundred..."

What would be the point in spending 600$ on a cd player when you can get for 100$ something which will do the job equally well? For 100$ you can get a blue ray player (http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=58962&vpn=BDP-5004&manufacture=Other&promoid=1302), which plays cds as well, and you're left with 500$ of spare change... Not chump change! Hell, a regular DVD player should be cheaper and would work equally well...

Hell, for 600$, you can get a netbook, a DAC, a media player, and run everything from there... Rip your songs in lossless, store on the laptop, access everything directly and instantly... No need to change CDs, and you have a flexible laptop instead of an ultra expensive ancient device which only reads CDs...

If the cd player at least sounded better... Then ok... But blind tests seem to indicate otherwise. The only thing might be track/load time, (dvd players have to detect the format), but then that's probably been improved compared to an old cheapo panasonic dvd player... Expensive cd players should be a thing of the past IMHO... Hell, you could buy a DAC, PS3/xbox360, plus a 'small' (22 inch) screen for 600$...

[1965]

Thanks guys for the replys. The technics has no digital out, just analog. If I knew then what I know now... Girgle I have a macbook with dac feeding old pioneer receiver in another room, so I know what you're saying. That rig sounds great compared to technics. just a pain to drag everything back and forth. Just thought the Oppo would be good to feed widescreen plus benefit of good audio. Question Girgle, Do you really think this 21 year old cd player would not be shown up by new player. This thing was built before anyone even talked about jitter. Also you think $100.00 bluray player would be as good as new Oppo? Just asking, I only have dvd player and it doesn't sound as good as the technics. Or are you saying to use the digital out on cheap player to a DAC? Thanks. Anymore comments very welcome.
Louie

[GirgleMirt]

Question Girgle, Do you really think this 21 year old cd player would not be shown up by new player. This thing was built before anyone even talked about jitter. Also you think $100.00 bluray player would be as good as new Oppo? Just asking, I only have dvd player and it doesn't sound as good as the technics. Or are you saying to use the digital out on cheap player to a DAC? Thanks. Anymore comments very welcome.
Louie
1) Couldn't really tell you about the Techics... But I think the question is more a cheap current player vs 600$ player than particularly this technics... And then then I'd definitely say: "bet ya a hunnerd bucks you can't tell the difference under blind conditions! ;)"
2) As good, depends how. As I said, I hope the 600$ player can play a cd faster, although I've seen some retarded cd players costing thousands of dollars where loading a cd seemed like a PITA and also took some time to detect the format... I'd hope the 600$ looks better, has better build quality and better remote.... But sound quality wise, yeah, just as good, certainly not worth 5-10 times the price, unless you're Superman and can detect changes normal humans can't... But that bluray doesn't look too cheap... It was just a random pick btw, not recommending that particular unit as I know next to nothing about it...
3) Dvd players have DACs in them, and they work nearly flawlessly, so getting an outboard dac doesn't make much sense to me... Unless you somehow manage to find a player which has a turd for a DAC, there's basically nothing to improve on. So getting a separate DAC or buying a super expensive cd player just doesn't make sense to me... If you have money to burn and want to get one, that's perfectly fine, but I wouldn't buy one expecting it to sound better than a 50$ special... People who have done it and did a blind test all ended up rather disappointed I believe...

matrix hifi has did a lot of blind tests, (google and translate!), one compared a cheap oppo dvd player to an Oracle cd player, think its like 5000$ or more, retardly expensive, looks like a scifi flying saucer... Did the test on 25000$ system, couldn't tell them apart... That's not with an external DAC, straight up cheapo DVD player with the cheapest radio-shack RCA cables you can find...

Build quality, looks and all, can't really compare them for sure, but for sound... Worthless to spend hundreds just hoping to get better sound quality...

[Sam1000]

If you are talking about CD player as a transport, I would have been with you exactly 6 months ago (before I upgraded from Squeezebox3 to squeezebox touch).
I was really surprised with the difference in SQ,so I posted the question on slimdevices forum using the same logic in your post(data is data). I was told that I was not the only one who noticed this. I use to think the term "jitter" was overused in audio. Now I'm a believer :D No, I did not do a blind test, but the difference was noticeable enough for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter ( I know you like to post the links :-))

Now if you talk about DACs, that's a bigger conversation. Just talk to folks who own either Opp95 or Oppo 83SE. But I agree with you about room acoustics/treatment making the bigger difference.

[scape]

I'm a fan of denon. just saying.

if you want a cd changer, maybe try: http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductLanding.aspx?CatId=aec95515-af8d-4fed-b95b-411e0664595d&SubId=8962af73-a56b-4ef7-b611-14768c132605

I have their 1909 model AVR as my home theatre controller/amp and use my sony dvd player for playing movies and cds, its great and hdmi really makes control a snap. i use a dedicated denon cd player at work, works fine for me- nothing to write home about tho.

[GirgleMirt]

If you are talking about CD player as a transport, I would have been with you exactly 6 months ago (before I upgraded from Squeezebox3 to squeezebox touch).
I was really surprised with the difference in SQ,so I posted the question on slimdevices forum using the same logic in your post(data is data). I was told that I was not the only one who noticed this. I use to think the term "jitter" was overused in audio. Now I'm a believer :D No, I did not do a blind test, but the difference was noticeable enough for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter ( I know you like to post the links :-))

Now if you talk about DACs, that's a bigger conversation. Just talk to folks who own either Opp95 or Oppo 83SE. But I agree with you about room acoustics/treatment making the bigger difference.

Placebo is a powerful thing... :p But seriously, it would be interesting to do the blind tests, and then if there is really an audible difference (demonstrated by statistically being able to differentiate both units), then compare both unit's output.

Thing to note, the squeezebox is a wireless device so the amount of jitter might be exponentially more than a regular DVD player or DAC... Or there might be some other factor which might influence the results...

As I said, all blind tests I've seen seem to indicate that there's no difference to be heard. That's worth dozens of articles on jitter and dozens of folks who claim they can hear the difference...

Axiom portable DVD player vs Mark Levinson No39
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.matrixhifi.com/pctajar.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmatrix%2Bhifi%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%2 6prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.ca&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhiDUKp2TwvoYn4SG5Zy7ieQMKiWHQ

Digital reader Einstein Last Record Player ($ 4,500) vs Laptop + m-audio sound card
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_pce.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmatrix%2Bhifi%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%2 6prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.ca&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhgAbc_uCo2VFGOMXkRHihE91NFe7g

Pioneer DVD player vs 12000 Euro Oracle player
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_pcm.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmatrix%2Bhifi%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%2 6prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.ca&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhhHtFl7VQ48ZARyMYHiu-NuhlDhWQ

Sony DVD Player DVP vs Wadia 6, 20-bit VRDS
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmatrix%2Bhifi%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%2 6prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.ca&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhi4X5Le4lHk8SczBlOVbSOJX48FAA

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_cambridgecambridge.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmatrix%2Bhifi%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%2 6prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.ca&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhjZzQjtbKKfY4PiUnXJ4piq1XwQIw

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_sonycambridge.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmatrix%2Bhifi%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%2 6prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.ca&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhhcmVlMOb2Jnv2bcPLGl-uGZKsltA

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_dac1.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmatrix%2Bhifi%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%2 6prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.ca&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhi8JcdAI7oQaka6C6AIsibz2WK8HA

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_grunvscec.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmatrix%2Bhifi%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%2 6prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.ca&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhigoatvJ-Z9v26iiS780nKUI-HyeA

I can sum up the results of all the above tests with 2 words: "no differences". So jitter doesn't seem to make an audible difference, not saying it doesn't exist or doesn't have a measurable (yet inaudible it seems) effect, but people couldn't tell the cheapo DVD players apart from the uber ridiculously expensive overkill cd players out there... Food for thought? Jitter me this... :D

[ruckusdad]

On the topic of cheap blu ray players that of course also play CDs, I have recently switched over all my DVD players to various Sony S series blu ray players. Most recently I found a deal on the S380 at Dell for $110. (Now expired.) I also picked up the S370 and S470 on clearance from Amazon for under $100.
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-BDP-S370-Blu-ray-Disc-Player/dp/B0036WS4CA
They seem excellent for the price, play blu rays of course, but also CDs and SACDs. The Netflix interface is rudimentary, but I like that they have Hulu Plus, Pandora etc. If you have a wired ethernet connection, these are very good units for the price.

[Sam1000]

On the topic of cheap blu ray players that of course also play CDs, I have recently switched over all my DVD players to various Sony S series blu ray players. Most recently I found a deal on the S380 at Dell for $110. (Now expired.) I also picked up the S370 and S470 on clearance from Amazon for under $100.
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-BDP-S370-Blu-ray-Disc-Player/dp/B0036WS4CA
They seem excellent for the price, play blu rays of course, but also CDs and SACDs. The Netflix interface is rudimentary, but I like that they have Hulu Plus, Pandora etc. If you have a wired ethernet connection, these are very good units for the price.

This should be really good if you do not care about wireless capabilities and 3D playback on blu ray. I'm planning to pick one myself to replace an aging dvd/cd player in the bedroom.

[1965]

Update folks! I don't need a new cd player. Remember I said in first post I only listened for 10-15 minutes. It was also all on one cd. Cross Canadian Ragweeds Garage. Still love the music, but that is one HOT recorded CD. Yesterday evening I talked my wife into taking my son to soccer practice so I could spend some time. I got out some cd's that I remembered sounding really good with the cbm-170's. Won't list them all but a couple were Allison Moorer's Mockingbird, and Allman Brothers' Live at the Beacon. Both are outstanding recordings and also vastly different. Mockingbird has a lot of acoustic guitar and is very dynamic. These speakers resolved lots of things I had never heard before. One that stood out was the sound of her lips actually opening to sing. I listened to the whole cd and never heard one harsh sound. Live at the Beacon was recorded March 25th and 26th of 2003 during their annual run there. This was actually the last cd I put on and only got to listen to disc 2. First wow was the amount of bass output. I won't be using my Hsu subwoofer with the Sierras. It is not needed in my family room. For those familiar, Oteil's bass was there driving the songs right along. No need to guess anymore who is playing the guitar solo. If it's Derek you know it, if it's Warren you know it. Derek plays almost exclusively a Gibson SG. Warren plays mostly a Les Paul. The tone is immediately apparant. Resolution of the drums is the best I have ever heard. So, sorry this is so long, but I wanted to give you some impressions. And thanks for all the suggestion, but the technics will die of old age I guess. Thanks guys.
Louie

[Funambulistic]

So... If bits are bits and DACs are DACs and analog outputs are analog outputs, why would you need an external DAC from your computer because the audio output "really was horrible". I thought there were "no differences"... Even one of the blind tests cited (between the Einstein and the laptop) showed there was no difference. I guess placebos really are a nice thing... ;)

[1965]

Who are you responding to?

[Funambulistic]

I apologize, Louie - I was being a bit facetious (all in jest, I assure you) towards another member (I felt he invalidated his own argument). I realize this is not the AVS forum and snide remarks should be kept at bay. I am glad your CD player is working fine and I hope it does last another 20 years!

[Funambulistic]

BTW, I upgraded my Sierras to Nrt status and they sound magnificent! :D

[GirgleMirt]

So... If bits are bits and DACs are DACs and analog outputs are analog outputs, why would you need an external DAC from your computer because the audio output "really was horrible". I thought there were "no differences"... Even one of the blind tests cited (between the Einstein and the laptop) showed there was no difference. I guess placebos really are a nice thing... ;)


Who are you responding to?
I'm pretty sure it was me...

why would you need an external DAC from your computer because the audio output "really was horrible"

Because the integrated soundcard of my laptop isn't a cd player? :confused: If you noticed, they used an external soundcard with the laptop. And even then, my experience with my own external sound card, Soundblaster Live! I think it is, was that the laptop noise propagated even to the external SBLive through the USB port.

If you ever purchase a cd player which sounds anything like the audio out of my laptop, no wait, such a thing probably doesn't exist... Hopfully... You can hear the hardisk's needle moving, noise while moving the cursor on the screen... Noisy as hell... I don't know if it's from the shared power supply, cheapo audio motherboard chip, electrical interference or whatever, but there was definitely some issue with the sound. I think in most cases analog out on laptops just isn't a priority and manufacturers don't want to bother (and pay...) to make audio out as good as could be...

But cd players and laptops are two different things. I'm sure some cd/dvd players exist which are so crap that their analog outs will suffer, but I'd bet they'd be quite hard to find, as almost all brand name cd/dvd players seem to sound the same, well, all the DBTs I've seen seemed to show that.

Laptop audio sucking is pretty much universally known. I tried to do some recording also from the laptop, and it's not an option, also too noisy. Would require phantom power from a mixer or something...

Look, if you don't believe me, make the test yourself, borrow a laptop if you don't have one, try the audio out and see if you can hear the difference vs a cd player. Same goes for whether all cd players sound the same or not. Grab a cheap one, an expensive one, and see if you can tell them apart under blind conditions... Matrix hifi leveled matched both cd players to make sure one wasn't playing louder than the other, but I'm not sure it's absolutely necessary, not sure if there's a large/significant level discrepancy between cdps... But laptops and cd players are two completely different things... Although I'm sure there are some laptops out there with good audio!

[Funambulistic]

Mss. GirgleMirt,

Thank you for responding in good humor! I appreciate your opinion and really enjoyed reading over the links you provided.

I am painfully aware of the typical computer DAC – mine is quite horrible as well. I bought an Asus laptop primarily for AutoCad and some rendering capabilities. I have relocated recently and all of my audio equipment is in storage. Not to be deterred, I plugged in my trusty Nuforce IE cans and was taken aback by the lackluster sound (heck, my iPhone has a better DAC). I have not yet taken the plunge into computer based audio (I have heard some hi-rez tracks on a good system and they sounded awesome). In the interim, I will get a headphone USB DAC for giggles and grins…

To preface this next part, I would like to state that I do not believe in 99% of the snake oil hype. I do not have “golden ears”. I have never been able to tell the difference between power cords, speaker cables, interconnects, vibration control (except for turntables and speakers – though my system was never “transformed”) green markers, special stones, strange resonators, crystals, harmonic convergence, ad nauseum. I just like to listen to music. That being said, I have heard a sonic difference between some CD players (nowhere nearly as obvious as different speakers can be, of course). Please note I said “some”. Also, I do not care a rodent’s buttocks what someone else uses as a source. If they are happy with a $25 Dynex DVD player from Walmart, fine. If they want to spend $20,000 on a piece of “audio jewelry”, more power to them.

Case in point: I dismantled a pretty nice system after the demise of an ill-advised marriage. I put together what I called my “Post-Apocalyptic Audio System” which was humble indeed. My source was a $50 Sony DVD player. After a while, I was able to purchase a Sony XA2ES CD player (retail in ’98 was $800 – I bought it on Audiogon on for $250) and it sounded much better (this was a purely subjective assessment because I thought it should: built like a tank, smooth as silk transport mechanism). After my brother went the Blu-ray route, he gave me his Sony DVP S9000ES, which I coveted for quite a while. Since I subscribe to the KISS method to my audio, I decided to sell my CD player because the DVD player did everything (except play my one hybrid SACD, which it should have - bummer). Before I did, I popped in a CD and, being intimately familiar with my kit (one of the reasons detractors of blind testing cite it being bogus – along with fear of being called out) felt something was off and the music did not sound “right”. I did everything I could to make everything equal between the two (the CD player had a set of variable outputs and I level matched as well as I could with a cheap RadioShack meter). My daughter and I had some duplicate titles and I went back and forth (I even had her switch outputs without telling which was which – a rudimentary ABAB, ABBA, etc. test) and the CD player sounded better to my ears every time. Now, I wanted the DVD player to sound better because I liked it so much, which, in effect, negated my subjectivism. Needless to say, I kept both. The DVD player had an awesome picture (that is an argument in of itself; some pundits believe DVDs are DVDs and Blue-rays are Blue-rays and, because they are digital, no player's picture is visually discernable from another).

I have since sold everything except my trusty Sunfire subwoofer (not by choice – unemployment made that decision for me) and, after being gainfully employed for a while, started from scratch (which was great fun). This time I decided to start with the source. Keeping my KISS mentality, I pursued a universal player because I wanted to invest in some SACDs and DVD audio. I went to my local Hi-fi shoppe and had a look around. I’ve known the owner for over 25 years (did I just say that?) and he is a great guy: he will more than likely steer one to a less costly component if he felt it met their needs. Of course, if someone comes in demanding Macintosh equipment, he will gladly sell it to them. Anyway, I did some research and had my heart set on a Denon unit. I listened to it and it sounded just fine. He told me to hold on a moment and brought in a used Theta Compli (not the Blu) that was on consignment. To my ears, it blew the Denon out of the water (granted, we did not perform a blind test). He had no vested interest in selling me the Theta (i.e. no profit) but that is the kind of guy he is. Unfortunately, I waited too long to pull the trigger and someone snatched it up. This is where it gets weird: We started talking about blind testing and he told me to have a seat in the Macintosh room with B&W 802D speakers (everything was WAY out of my price range). He actually had a form for me to fill out for his test. He burned a copy of my favorite CD (Dead Can Dance “Into the Labyrinth” which I have listened to countless times and am familiar with every nuance of every song). He fed a PS Audio Digital Link III with either a Macintosh universal player or PS Audio Perfect Wave as a transport (I had no preference either way, since I could not remotely afford either one) using the exact same digital cables. He then started the test (the DAC was hidden from me) and asked me which I liked better (he was very systematic about it, playing a whole track on one unit or the other [or not] playing the track with a ten second delay, switched out the disks, etc.) and my answers were 80% accurate (without knowing it, I preferred the PS Audio). This was not even about the DAC or analog outputs, but the transports themselves!

I wound up with an Arcam DV137 and I love it (retail was $2000 and, since it was discontinued, I got a new unit for $400). A few months ago, I purchased a used Sony Blu-ray player (the Arcam only up-converts DVDs) on Audiogon on for $60 (retail was $250). Of course, the Blu-ray picture is excellent, but the Arcam’s DVD picture is better to my eyes. It also sounds much better with CDs (and DVDs, for that matter). My daughter is grown and out of the house now, so I subjected my new wife (and mother to our new baby!) to a little ABBA, etc. testing (both on me and on her) and the Arcam consistently won out (the levels were pretty well matched already). My wife has no interest in “audio” (she loves music, though and is great at humoring me) but her exact words were, “On one, it sounds like music; on the other, it sounds like actual musicians.” Excellent answer!

Yes, this post was way too long and drawn out, but this is my personal experience and opinion. Other’s mileage may (and most likely will) vary.

Cheers! :D

[GirgleMirt]

That being said, I have heard a sonic difference between some CD players (nowhere nearly as obvious as different speakers can be, of course).
I've also heard differences between amps and between cd players. Or, more to the point, think I had heard differences... Because that's the thing. Placebo, you think you hear things you don't...

I've also noticed that my EQ tweaks finally managed to pay off, only to realize that the EQ section was turned off... Ouch...

Again, it goes back to, is there really differences or not? And if there really are differences, what are they and where do they come from? Some pieces of equipment purposely alter the signal.. Some might play louder than others (case of cdps), alter FR... So again, in the case of cd players, different doesn't necessarily mean better, same for cables, amps, etc...


After a while, I was able to purchase a Sony XA2ES CD player (retail in ’98 was $800 – I bought it on Audiogon on for $250) and it sounded much better (this was a purely subjective assessment because I thought it should: built like a tank, smooth as silk transport mechanism).
:) Thanks


I popped in a CD and, being intimately familiar with my kit (one of the reasons detractors of blind testing cite it being bogus – along with fear of being called out) felt something was off and the music did not sound “right”. I did everything I could to make everything equal between the two (the CD player had a set of variable outputs and I level matched as well as I could with a cheap RadioShack meter). My daughter and I had some duplicate titles and I went back and forth (I even had her switch outputs without telling which was which – a rudimentary ABAB, ABBA, etc. test) and the CD player sounded better to my ears every time. Now, I wanted the DVD player to sound better because I liked it so much, which, in effect, negated my subjectivism. Needless to say, I kept both. The DVD player had an awesome picture (that is an argument in of itself; some pundits believe DVDs are DVDs and Blue-rays are Blue-rays and, because they are digital, no player's picture is visually discernable from another).
Interesting. It would be interesting to find out why that is.

I've browsed stereophile which does measurements to see how their high end cdps would compare to cheap units, but I wasn't able to find a cheap unit... lol They did a sony playstation 1 but it got destroyed by UPS and supposedly the DACs and RCAs varied and measured sounded much worst... Meh...


For the rest, there's either differences or there's not. If there are differences, then they'll be measurable, and if they're audible, should pass a DBT test. It's possible that there are differences, and that they do sound different, but maybe it's because of an additional circuit or something... Jitter... Noise... No idea... Not impossible. But as I said earlier, different doesn't necessarily mean better. And it's also possible that there's no differences, and the test sample wasn't high enough, that because it was not DBT some outward factor influenced the result...

People have been saying the same for cables and interconnects. Yet, has monster or any other cable company ever done a DBT to demonstrate they do indeed sound better? James Randi is offering one million dollars to anyone who can differentiate cables (not broken). Problem is that audiophile listening tests aren't rigorous and error prone. Until DBTs show that audible differences are there to be heard, (and why), then going with Occam's razor, rigorous DBT tests trumps error prone tests...

But I'm all for being proven wrong...

[GirgleMirt]

Just to expand a bit on the above, and give a better perspective to my position.

I think we can all agree that the world of audio is riddled with snake oil and all kind of bogus claims, crooked dealers, manufacturers, shops, or just plain charlatans, just too many are out to gouge the customer. Monster hdmi cables at 100$, RCA cables for 500$, power cords for 200$, isolation pads for an amp, 500$... There's countless examples. And honestly, Ascend is a very welcome change to that approach... BUT I digress...

Some things do make a difference. I upgraded my Sierras to NrTs, and I definitely got an improvement. This difference is real. Some might argue that they still preferred the original Sierras, or the 340SEs, or the HTM 200s or whatever, but the differences are real, and the NrT really does improve in tangible ways; imaging, clarity, detail, etc... Subjectivity aside, if you hold aim for tenets of hifi, imho, more accurate transducer.

But in the case of, let's take cables, a cable might be sold 400$, and the only difference from a 4.99$ Walmart special could be that what this 400$ magic cable does is act like a resistor and alters the signal exponentially more than the cheap ass cable. Then some people might see this as 'an uprade', and rave about, and say that this cable is great, and yadayada...

Even worst, someone might upgrade a power cable, which makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, and again, will claim that it's great, improves this and that, and all... Of course, these people haven't done any kind of rigorous test, are are pretty much deluded. In the same way someone would be if he believed in fairies, an invisible man living in the sky, or any other kind of supernatural phenomenon... And they believe, they rave, the misinformation gets spread, people waste their money on useless junk which does nothing, all the while thinking they're really improving their audio...

I'm 100% against snake oil. I don't believe in most of what is qualified as snake oil... Well I hope...

In the case of cd players, the science/technology behind DACs is solid, and digital to analog conversion is nearly flawless. And this isn't ultra expensive technology... It's cheap, readily available and part of almost all cheapo components you can purchase today... DBTs, Double Blind Tests, have shown that even comparing extremes, with a super cheapo DVD player and a disgustingly expensive CD player, people aren't able to tell the two units apart.

So the thing for me here, is not whether someone believes he can or can't hear differences... It's whether there really is or if there really isn't a difference. If you claim that you can hear differences, and did hear differences, then you pretty much go against the above, you're saying that somehow science is 'bad' and for example DAC technology isn't up to spec because obviously a 2nd unit does it better than unit 1, and you're claiming that the DBTs results were incorrect because you were/are able to hear differences. Actually, you might not be saying that, but you're definitely implying that, unlike the DBTs have shown, there are differences.

Now my issue with that is that, the rigorous tests goes against your claims... Now it is possible that there are differences, but one trick, is to purposely alter the signal in some way, so that it does sound different than unaltered... That's a good trick.. Take for example a Rega Apollo CD player: http://www.stereophile.com/content/rega-apollo-cd-player-measurements Rolled off high end... "Ooooh! Soo smooth! Much smoother than the McIntosh!!! The Mc sounds harsh..." Another Wadia has also rolled high end: http://www.stereophile.com/content/nagra-cdp-cd-player-measurements ... Ok, it's quite small rolloff, .5dB at what appeared to be 15kHz, but still, if you want to make a case that there are differences in sound, it's possible...

But we have to go back to, is this an improvement or not? In this case, no... It simply alters the signal, so it's a minus in my book. And a cheap DVD player probably wont have that... So yay for the 100$ player besting the 15000$ player.... Hell, if you like the roll off, instead of spending 15000$ on that cd player, buy a 10 cent resistor and solder it between the CDP and the amp... Woila, same rollof, saved 14899.90$ ...!!!

But again, to go back, even if there is some measurable difference, is it even audible? Or is it just placebo... Your mind/ears playing tricks on you... Is there really a sound improvement, a REAL improvement, going from a cheap player to expensive one? The evidence I've seen show that no, there is none.

So I guess there's two camps. Those who believe there is. Those are usually those who haven't done research, haven't seen DBTs or won't believe them, haven't done rigorous testing, etc... And the more skeptic... Which seems to be those who are more technologically knowledgeable (ex: engineers who understand the theory behind DACs/cdp/etc.) or who demand evidence that there are differences before believing there is...

I dunno... lol... The above paragraph is definitely skewed from my perspective of being in most things a skeptic and butting heads with believers... But like most things, religion, homeopathy, tarot card reading, et all things superstitious, it always seem to be the same issue... One group has beliefs which most often never questioned, nor has been demonstrated true in any shape or form, and all too often these beliefs are held in face of evidence...

In an earlier post, I linked I think it was at least 10 different DBTs with DVD/Cd players which showed that people couldn't tell units apart. Not ONE of those tests showed differences... Not at all strange?

So I'd guess the burden of proof resides on the side of those who claim that there are differences. Until then, I can't see a reason to believe the contrary...

Measure two units, see that both do the job well, and not one which messes up the signal and reduces high end or whatever... And see how well they do under a DBT test... Saying "I heard differences between X and Y!" just seems to me... Rather... Pointless... At this point, from my perspective, it's like someone saying: "But I did see some fairy yesterday night! I'm quite confident it was a fairy!". I'm not trying to belittle an opinion (sorry if it sounds like I'm trying...), but from the way I see things, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Let's see the evidence! Anecdotal evidence... Meh... It's old...

And in the audio industry, littered with snake oil BS, unscrupulous charlatans, delusional audiofools... I think it's important to draw the line and try to make extremely clear what is real, what is significant, what is worth to purchase, and what is worthless... And since it's so easy to get fooled and hold erroneous beliefs, I think it's much better to side on the safe side, (truth, skeptical), rather than spreading misinformation about things one might think he heard...

Woa.. Long... Hope that gives a better idea of my position.. :) Until I see solid evidence that expensive cd players sound better than cheap ones, I'm not going to believe it... All the serious tests I've seen show the contrary!!! If one DBT would show a difference, would have measurements to show that both units work adequately, and there was audible differences/improvements, then I'd jump ship... But I'm still waiting... Just like prayers, gods, homeopathy, cables, green marker pen, etc, etc.. I'm not holding my breath... :D

[Mag_Neato]

Last night I had some quality time with my NrT's! I don't have the chance often enough to just sit back and let the music play, so it was well deserved.

Well, playing several different CD's left me with the feeling that these puppies can handle pretty much anything you throw at them. They have the best high end I've ever had in my system, and the midrange is loaded with detail and clarity. I have a 12" Rythmik pulling bass duty below 60hz. When a horn instrument hits a high note the tweeter belts it out, no screeching or ear fatigue present, just clear as a bell. When a vocal hits a falsetto it is not rolled off, and it sounds as if the performer is in front of you live.

I really need to purchase an ipod dock so I can play it on the system as well. I looked at a Cambridge Audio unit that sends a digital bitstream from the ipod to the receiver, but the darn thing is $299. My birthday is Monday, and I see the tax lady Wednesday, so.................:rolleyes:

[Funambulistic]

C-c-c-combo Breaker!

Ed,

I had my Sierras upgraded to NrT status as well. I bought them used and there was a warranty issue (a port had come loose). While they were in for repair, I asked Dina if there were any NrT kits available. Apparently, I got the last one! :D Well, before the next shipment, of course. Dave re-certified for another seven years.

They are, without a doubt, the best speakers I have ever owned (and the list is quite long). They do run the fine line quite well between neutrality and musicality. I run them mostly with my subwoofer off (80% music, 20% movies [most of which require the subwoofer to be in the mix]) and strictly in a two channel setup. I find them so revealing that it is easy to tell the difference between CD players. ;)

[RCDAVE]

Mag Neato, look into the Pure I-20 dock. I got one recently and love it! For 99 bucks you can't go wrong with this thing. It's even got an internal DAC(which is surprisingly good) and can bypass the iPod's DAC, or you can run optical to an external DAC of your choice. It hasn't replaced my CDP or turntable, but it really is great for my background music in apple lossless, and Pandora streaming.

[billy p]

Update folks! I don't need a new cd player. Remember I said in first post I only listened for 10-15 minutes. It was also all on one cd. Cross Canadian Ragweeds Garage. Still love the music, but that is one HOT recorded CD. Yesterday evening I talked my wife into taking my son to soccer practice so I could spend some time. I got out some cd's that I remembered sounding really good with the cbm-170's. Won't list them all but a couple were Allison Moorer's Mockingbird, and Allman Brothers' Live at the Beacon. Both are outstanding recordings and also vastly different. Mockingbird has a lot of acoustic guitar and is very dynamic. These speakers resolved lots of things I had never heard before. One that stood out was the sound of her lips actually opening to sing. I listened to the whole cd and never heard one harsh sound. Live at the Beacon was recorded March 25th and 26th of 2003 during their annual run there. This was actually the last cd I put on and only got to listen to disc 2. First wow was the amount of bass output. I won't be using my Hsu subwoofer with the Sierras. It is not needed in my family room. For those familiar, Oteil's bass was there driving the songs right along. No need to guess anymore who is playing the guitar solo. If it's Derek you know it, if it's Warren you know it. Derek plays almost exclusively a Gibson SG. Warren plays mostly a Les Paul. The tone is immediately apparant. Resolution of the drums is the best I have ever heard. So, sorry this is so long, but I wanted to give you some impressions. And thanks for all the suggestion, but the technics will die of old age I guess. Thanks guys.
Louie

I kind of stumbled on to this thread just looking for ideas in setting up my Sierra's for music only purposes. At the time of purchase(96-97..I believe) my Technics SL PD867 retailed for >$400.00 cdn and still to this day, its my personal favorite playback device. I really enjoy the benefit of having a 5 disc carosel vs. your typical signal disc player or those bulky& noisy juke box style cd players back in the day....:)

[curtis]

I am a big proponent of streaming to a device such as a Sonos or a Squeezebox.

I rip my CDs to FLAC, store the files on home network, and play on my Sonos. I can control the Sonos from my Android phone, PC, or dedicated remote.

After the rip, I store the CD, without the jewel case. in a plastic sleeve with artwork, in a box. I rarely have to touch it again.

With hundreds of discs stored on the network drive, I can play any of it, at any time, in any order....and create/save play lists.

[joez28ls1]

Curtis,

Any tips on streaming from a Sonus or Squeezebox? Does the Duet or Touch work better, or either is fine? What do I need if I went Sonos, is the Zonebridge needed if I don't have hard-wired ethernet going to the ZP90? It's a bit confusing to me! Thanks.

[curtis]

I don't have any experience with the Zonebridge...my Sonos is hardwired.

I don't have experience with the newer Squeezebox units. Squeezebox units can be used wirelessly. I think there are others on here that can help with it, but it is pretty simple to use.

[Sam1000]

I don't have any experience with the Zonebridge...my Sonos is hardwired.

I don't have experience with the newer Squeezebox units. Squeezebox units can be used wirelessly. I think there are others on her that can help with it, but it is pretty simple to use.

Squeezebox touch has a nice interface and it's very easy to use. Between duet and touch, I would definitely go with touch. You will have to buy an app for your phone with squeezebox which is totally worth it. (iPeng for iphone and 'squeezecommander' for Android).

[scape]

Hey curtis, how's the sonos connected? I've been looking for a good media streaming device, figured I'd end up with hdmi or toslink from a htpc or a device like appletv.

[joez28ls1]

Thanks for the info guys!

[Mitch G]

Squeezebox touch has a nice interface and it's very easy to use. Between duet and touch, I would definitely go with touch. You will have to buy an app for your phone with squeezebox which is totally worth it. (iPeng for iphone and 'squeezecommander' for Android).

iPeng is nice, but Logitech also makes a free app available to control the squeezebox which works quite well.
(Sorry for continuing the OT topic ...)


Mitch