Why Sierra over CBM?

[sthayashi]

So while I was waiting to be registered, I sent this to Dave, but I'm curious to hear what people on these forums have to say:

For background, many years ago, I bought a pair of the original CBM-170s from you. A few years later, I bought another pair for some surrounds and finally bought a CMT-340 for a center channel. Those, combined with a HSU VTF-2 (which seemed to be recommended at the time) have made me perfectly happy with my entertainment system.

Since my purchases, Ascend has added to its line-up with the Sierra-1, Sierra-1 NrT, and the 'se' change for all the speakers, not to mention the upcoming tower. Everything about them sounds very exciting, but I try to remain as objective about this as possible.

So I must ask, beyond the nebulous claim "they sound better" why should I consider upgrading to a higher end product? What improvements would I hear by doing so?

For reference, these speakers are in my living room, which is about 20'x12', but feels a lot smaller than that due to furniture. Listening positions are about 8'-12' from the main speakers and about 6' from the surrounds. Those are powered by an Onkyo TX-NR708 A/V receiver. We use the system for about 80% movies, 10% music and 10% video games.

I realize that other speaker companies don't do this (or maybe they do and I'm just ignorant), but when presented a choice between several different products of differing prices, it would be nice to know why one should choose a more expensive one (or a less expensive one) compared to another. Especially since Ascend has gone all out to put up the specs and high quality measurements. But based on what I've seen on those charts, I can't been able to figure out why I (or anyone) should choose a Sierra-1 over a CBM-170.

[Mag_Neato]

If you are happy with the CBM-170's and are looking to be convinced to replace them with the Sierra-1, I ask why? If it ain't broke..........!

On the other hand, I did swap my original CBM-170's with Sierra-1's. Measurements only tell part of the story. While the 170's were a very good speaker, and I never had any complaints, the Sierra's took the sound to higher levels. I don't mean loudness. If the 170's give you a 720P picture, the Sierra-1 kicks it to 1080P with 3D glasses. You hear more details. There's more definition to the bass. There's greater impact, or tactile feel to the sound. You "see" deeper into the music.

Adding the NrT upgrade took things up a notch again. A bit more forward mids, airier highs with more energy and kick. And what seems like an expanded soundstage. Almost holographic.

If you can justify the small expense to audition them in your home for 30 days, whether it is the Sierra-1 or the NrT, that is the best way to find out if either is right for you.

[sthayashi]

Well, the receiver is a new purchase and opens up things for me. I currently have a 6.1 setup officially though the rear speaker is a joke. I can now move onto a 7.1 setup and/or drive some speakers in a different location (like my kitchen. I sometimes listen to music when I cook).

So I'm kinda in the market for new speakers, but I'm not fully convinced that I need some. Back when I got the CBMs, they had everything I needed, i.e. flat response, good sound staging. Heck I was impressed early on when I first tested them out along with a center channel and a 5.1 receiver, and all the sound seemed to be coming from the center until I went up to the receiver to make adjustments. No, it turned out that the speakers blended the sound so well that I didn't realize that they were coming from two separate sources (and the center speaker was in fact off).

Even a few years ago, I was sitting on my couch reading something while listening to music and an acoustic guitar bit came on, and it honestly sounded like someone was on a stool playing guitar to my left. I had to stop and take a look because it just jumped out at me.

This is all with the pre-SE CBM-170. And now that I'm looking into speakers again, I'm wondering why I should consider getting the Sierra when the CBM has already blown me away time and time again.

Back when I bought these, Ascend only had two products, HTM and CBM. The CBM had a better response curve, so the choice was obvious. And when the CMT was released, it had a higher sensitivity and a lower cutoff. But now Ascend has 4 products with 2 more on the way (I don't count the NrT option until I can order it from the site :) ) and the choices are less obvious now, except that the Sierras cost more than twice as much as the CBMs.

I initially wrote to Dave directly partially because I think that this sort of question has got to come up often among potential buyers, and there's little information on the site that can help guide people to making a decision.

Given the recent purchase of the receiver, I'm probably going to wait a paycheck or two before dropping any money on speakers, but that doesn't mean that I can't do my homework before then.

[S_rangeBrew]

I think you would have to try them. I trust DaveF's information, but speakers are a very subjective thing.

However, there are some objective points. Price is one. For me personally, I'm using Ascends for a home theater. Right now, it has 7 speakers, and soon I'll be adding 4 more for an Audyssey DSX 11.2 setup. Using 340SE and HTM200s for this is expensive... using the higher-end Ascends would be even more so! A nice thing that Ascend provides is the option to upgrade your non-SE speakers to SEs for a small fee. I plan on doing this to my HTM200s eventually. Maybe that's what you should do for your speakers.

The next objective point is speaker sensitivity. If you listen to dynamic music and movies, you need a speaker that your amp can drive easily. I'm using 340SEs for my LCRs because they are the most sensitive speakers Ascend currently has, and my THX Select reciever can power them easily. It could NOT power the HTM200s properly when I was using them for LCRs, and it clipped and blew them up. Sierras have the same sensitivity as HTM200s. Your amp has the same power as mine. If you like things loud, I'd avoid the Sierra's or get a beefier amp.

Just a couple more things to think about. No matter what you end up doing, you will have some of the best speakers ever made. There is a reason Ascend is still around when others have folded up shop. :)

[sthayashi]

A nice thing that Ascend provides is the option to upgrade your non-SE speakers to SEs for a small fee. I plan on doing this to my HTM200s eventually. Maybe that's what you should do for your speakers.

I didn't realize that this was an option or still an option. If Dave or Curtis don't reply to this thread today, I'll shoot one of them an email. Depending on price, this is an upgrade I'd likely be willing to do.


Sierras have the same sensitivity as HTM200s. Your amp has the same power as mine. If you like things loud, I'd avoid the Sierra's or get a beefier amp.

I did notice that the sensitivity was reduced. I appreciate loud, but I don't like things too loud. Based on the numbers I posted earlier, 8-12 ft translates to 2.4-3.7m. If I'm doing the math correctly, that means that with a sensitivity of 87dB @ 1W-1m of power, I'd be getting around 76dB-79dB at listening positions, right? That's about as loud as I like.

At 10W, it would be 86-89dB at listening position, which should be plenty, as that's hearing damage levels. Can someone check my numbers to make sure that I'm not doing the math wrong?

In any event, I've been eyeballing Emotiva amps, so I can always get one of those just in case.

[curtis]

I didn't realize that this was an option or still an option. If Dave or Curtis don't reply to this thread today, I'll shoot one of them an email. Depending on price, this is an upgrade I'd likely be willing to do.

Shoot that email to Dave or Ascend...not me. Might even be better to call Ascend.

[scape]

woops thought I double posted, good that this forum prevents that- bad that i just removed my post, hah. well I'm sure yall got an email update :)

[curtis]

To answer why the graphs are different, I believe the ones you found in that thread, from 2005, is of the older "non-SE" 170 and 340.

[curtis]

woops thought I double posted, good that this forum prevents that- bad that i just removed my post, hah. well I'm sure yall got an email update :)

Here what I got in the email:


like how you posted this thread, it's a good question- as the description of advancement per speaker model is not exactly clearly defined. Perhaps this is on purpose as the speakers as a whole are fantastic- and some may not be made to 'replace' other models but are possibly complimentary in sound but for different use.. im thinking of this new tower and it's probable fullrange abilities- something I personally do not find important since I am a fan of pairing with a dedicated sub-- now I'm sure the tower offers more than just that one feature, as it will blow away the 170's in many other aspects- no doubt.
Back to the original question and request for a beefier description would be nice. After some digging I bumped into this thread back on this forum actually: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showpost.php?p=7712&postcount=17
For starters I am curious as to why the spectral decay image is not the same as what's on the main site, but that's not too big of a deal; but what the post states is the major advancements of the 340 vs the 170..to go back to the OP I think some of the major advancements of the sierra over the 170 are much more detail heard, great FR from off-axis angles, and the ability to run without a sub if needed- they go pretty low for many people's tastes.
My response isn't meant to actually answer any questions for you, but just agree that more definition as to what each product has on eachother would be nice; but perhaps that's bad business as it plays down previous products..I have no idea.. what would be good is a simple guide to select speakers based on a few simple descriptors (like no sub used, large room, mostly music) and it'd recommend the sierras as a stereo pair for purchase; or (need a sub, want 5 channel, not much room for rear-surrounds) and it'd pop up rythmik sub, and some htm's for the rear-- explaining that they can be placed on the wall, directly mounted. its just an idea.

[scape]

Thanks for reposting that!
Regarding those graphs, lets bring this over to the other thread I had going, i feel bad jacking this thread: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?p=36794

[sthayashi]

I just wanted to follow up that I've been communicating with Dave about this via email.

I'll keep the actual specifics private unless Dave would like to post it (if you need my permission at all, you have it!).

The conversation went into the various measurements of the Sierra and the CBM, and Dave explained how to interpret certain parts. It was very educational and far better than "it's better."

[Mag_Neato]

Excellent! Hope you got the info you need to make your decision.

For me, turning a sensory-oriented product, such as audio, into a series of measurements is pretty useless to me. Also, taking the enjoyment of listening and turning it into technical measurements, then agonizing over those measurements on how to correct them takes away from that enjoyment. I'm as guilty as the next guy when it comes to wanting the best sound I can buy, but at what point do we just let dead dogs lie and enjoy our equipment?

But, that is the mania we audio nuts share, so keep the upgrades coming!:D

[sthayashi]

I love technical details and measurements. While I realize they don't necessarily tell the whole picture, I've always believed that they should tell you something meaningful. Or else why have them?

I got what I wanted to know. I'm still not sure if I fully agree with some the interpretations that Dave made of the measurements, but he's been nothing but forthcoming so I'm inclined to believe him.

[Mag_Neato]

Well, I would not feel qualified to dispute Daves' designs. Perhaps someone with equal, or greater experience than his could truly challenge Dave, with the test equipment and data to back it up. Steel sharpens steel. I will humbly take his word as fact.

Bottom line: Enjoy yourself!

[DougMac]

How much are you willing to spend to satisfy your curiosity? When the time comes for you to order new speakers, you could order the Sierra's. If you don't think the extra cost provides enough improvement, you'd only be out the cost of freight to send them back for some 170's or 340's.

One thing that sold me on Ascends was the excellent customer support and Dave not automatically upselling me to Sierra's. He thought that 340's and 170's would be the better solution for my new dedicated home theater. I'm using 340's L/C/R, 170's side surrounds and HTM-200's for rear surround in my 7.1 system. I'm very pleased and friends respond enthusiastically to the sound quality.

I think there will be Sierra's in my future, I'm watching for news of the towers.