NrT upgrade completed!

[ediblestarfish]

I purchased my base speakers earlier this year, so everything went smoothly, except for the screws looking a bit worn. Found an extra foam ring after I put everything together, which can only mean one thing... :rolleyes:

The screws won't be a problem for me since I can touch it up with some model paints later.

The sound difference is much larger than I expected.

Getting a lot more clarity, a bit more transparent openness. It doesn't sound more forward to me so much as it sounds more detailed in resolution. That delicious crispiness I hear out of higher end metal tweeters is nearly there in full, without the fatigue. The illusion of the sound stage is even more present.

The extra efficiency is noted as my sub needs to be re-tuned in gain.

I thought the difference would be subtle, but it's not to my ears. The upgrade has been highly worthwhile for me. :D

Have to thank Ascend and Dave for the incredible work, and at what I think is a very modest price.

[bk_856er]

Welcome to the club! :D

This might be just what the doctor ordered. My little Sierras are all growd up!

BK

[davef]

I purchased my base speakers earlier this year, so everything went smoothly, except for the screws looking a bit worn. Found an extra foam ring after I put everything together, which can only mean one thing... :rolleyes:

The screws won't be a problem for me since I can touch it up with some model paints later.

The sound difference is much larger than I expected.

Getting a lot more clarity, a bit more transparent openness. It doesn't sound more forward to me so much as it sounds more detailed in resolution. That delicious crispiness I hear out of higher end metal tweeters is nearly there in full, without the fatigue. The illusion of the sound stage is even more present.

The extra efficiency is noted as my sub needs to be re-tuned in gain.

I thought the difference would be subtle, but it's not to my ears. The upgrade has been highly worthwhile for me. :D

Have to thank Ascend and Dave for the incredible work, and at what I think is a very modest price.

This is really great news and thanks so much for sharing. Your description of what you are hearing with the Sierra-1 NrT is precisely what we (the world-class engineers at SEAS and myself) were after with this new tweeter.

As I have mentioned before, I do not feel this upgrade is for everyone. But for those who want that crispness and detail of fine metal domes, without listening fatigue caused by the ringing present with all metal dome tweeters, the NrT upgrade should definitely be considered.

[Sherlock]

Finished mine last night. Was pretty easy, took less than an hour. Maybe 35 minutes for the first one and 20 for the second (after the first one, the 2nd is a snap).

I'm burning these in for 40 hrs before serious listening but the extra detail is very nice. In a few weeks I'll do some compares with my Harbeth P3ESR's and ERA D10's (I have 3 systems).

[Kucimat]

Just got my 3-kits in this morning and completed the install over lunch. They went very easily as I must have the newer style of Sierra-1 chasis. After I figured it out on the first speaker, it took about 10-minutes for each of the other two speakers I upgraded. I may go back and upgrade my surrounds to the NrT kit later on.

My first impressions are positive. I can definately tell superior mid-range clarity and high-end punch. I have no doubt that once I run audissy and dial everything in, there'll be even more significant improvement. Overall, I think the upgrade was worth every penny and I haven't listened to more than about 5-minutes with them in a HT application.

[bk_856er]

I finally got the house to myself for a bit, allowing me to explore some additional rotation on the volume knob for 2.1 music. The NrT benefits & characteristics seem to reveal themselves more at higher volumes. I might actually have a preference for the originals at really low listening levels, but at even modest volume the NrT is coming out on top to these ears. Quick check shows ~70dB on my RS meter. Much more listening and tweaking coming up over the next few weeks.

Is there anything about the upgrade parts design or measurements that would support my observation?

BK

[Mag_Neato]

Finished one speaker this evening, then had to stop to watch 2 recorded shows we watch on Wednesdays!

I have the original cabinets, so they use the old fiberglass in a mesh "sock" type of batting glued to the inside of the cabinet. I managed to rip the mesh trying to pull it out as some spots were heavily glued. Fortunately I have some 1" Dacron batting leftover from my Rythmik sub project, so I cut a piece and used that to replace the fiberglass. The new crossover has a larger footprint than the original. I secured one of the front corners with an original Torx screw, than used #6 x 5/8" long Spax flat head construction screws on the remaining 3 holes. The Spax screws worked perfectly. Keeping consistant pressure while twisting with a stubby screwdriver, they self-tapped and thereaded in with no problem. Wish there was more room thru the woofer opening, but I got-er-done!

A note about reinstalling the woofer: Try to align the rim of the woofer basket as straight as possible while putting it in the opening or it may jam in there crooked. I had to pry the woofer back out and insert the screws by hand to keep it aligned.

Also, when I went to hook up the speaker wire to the binding posts after the upgrade was finished, I noticed that the posts had turned from tightening the nuts for the crossover leads on the inside so that the wire holes in the posts were not aligned axially with the vertical axis of the speaker any more. I may pull the woofer and Dacron out to try and adjust that.

After a very brief listen with the NrT on the right and the non-upgraded Sierra-1 on the left, I definitely noticed a clearer sound from the NrT. I will do the 2nd upgrade by the weekend and give further impressions.

So far I think it was worth the cost after my brief listen.

[ediblestarfish]

I had a few blunders with the upgrade, but nothing worse for the wear other than the cosmetics of the black screws. I knew what I was getting into when I ordered the DIY kit, so I can't really complain.

I use my speakers in a near-field setup with 80% music, so perhaps the differences are more prominent in my situation with the high and midrange frequencies as they have less room interaction to begin with.

I'm comparing the NrT to the Thiel CS1.6's I have setup in another room as I did with the stock Sierra-1's. The Thiels are sharp and bright sounding to me. They are not very enjoyable due to the fatigue, but they definitely capture the sizzle off metal instruments as well as strings in crisp definition. The Thiels also image that illusionary sound stage incredibly well, and it's something the stock Sierra's have not been able to replicate to the same degree; they sound a little soft at the top end.

The NrT gets very close to that bar, without going over the edge for what I can tolerate. I did notice that they require a moderate listening level around 50 db or more to really open up. Any lower and the difference between the stock Sierra-1 and the NrT are difficult to perceive.

I also did the one-speaker-can't-wait-test, which did yield a slight improvement, but was nothing like stereo with both; the NrTs image much better. Sounds seem to be floating further off to the sides of the speakers as I listen to them. :o

I'm ecstatic about the upgrade. It's rare at this price range to spend a few hundred and get anything significant. It's hard to imagine how much better the new Ascend towers will sound (if I can justify purchasing them...). I was happy with the Sierra-1's before, even more with the NrTs, which I wasn't sure was going to happen. :)

[pj-]

Did mine last night. I took my time because I was afraid of scratching the cabinets. Everything went smoothly except I wasn't able to get the woofers perfectly centered in the hole.

Couple things I noticed:
The nuts on my binding posts were all less than finger tight. The first one came off so easily that I thought I was using too large of a socket, the rest I just spun off with my fingers. Were they supposed to be like that?

One of my old crossovers has a weird discoloration around one of the screw holes, and the big black thing (resistor?) has a loose flap, like its wrapper is starting to come off. Are these just cosmetic issues or did something happen?
Here's a pic of the weird discoloration:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5001/5248603879_eb12357afb_b.jpg

My first impression of the actual sound is that it is definitely improved. The differences on Nils Lofgren - "Keith don't go" were the most apparent, with greatly increased detail and sharpness of the guitar. I also listened to a little jazz, which sounded more open, with more precise imaging. I'm always skeptical of listening impressions due to the crappiness of human auditory memory, so I'm not sure if any of the differences I heard were imagined..

[GirgleMirt]

I had a few blunders with the upgrade, but nothing worse for the wear other than the cosmetics of the black screws.

Know what can work wonders? Black marker! Well actually read the context before you try this at home... I built a DIY pair of speakers and turns out Rona doesn't have black screws :rolleyes: So I purchased metallic colored screws with slight bluish hue... After a few weeks, I got tired of the screws flashing, and I said what the hell, I'll just try a cheapo black marker... It worked like a charm! So I'm guessing that if some of your black screws now have some "silver shiny" on them, that could work! No idea about the life expectancy of black marker on screws, but chances are that it won't look worst than 'chewed' screws! :) And if it starts to degrade or something, you can always add another layer. I did 2 black marker layers on my screws, and from 1-2 feet away don't think I could differentiate them from regular black screws... Actually, the light reflection is a little more purplish than white on regular black screws, but it's not a big difference... I was actually surprised it worked so good! :D

So it sounds like the upgrade is quite significant, can't wait to get mine! :D

[merrymaid520]

Alright,
I finished up my sierra center Nrt upgrade and spent some time listening to it last night. First off, I had the old cabinet, so installation was a bear, but I managed:)

Setup...
I brought down the sierra Nrt into my theater room(lots of sound deadening paneling and a yamaha receiver) and setup one center on speaker A and the other on speaker B of my receivers input, both left channel. I then was able to use the remote to toggle between the two center channels to compare the differences.
Like pj, my first track on my own custom demo disc is Nils "Keith dont go". First thing I noticed was the extra top end sizzle, the guitar plucks and etc had more sizzle and energy. Then switching back to the original sierra, it sounded dull or veiled in comparison. I felt the guitar notes on the Nrt sounded much more realisitic regarding timbre accuracy compared to listening to a live guitar. I also noticed the male vocals sounded much more forward (more weight to them), where as the original sounded a bit boxy and hollow. As I listened to some other material (Jack Johnson, Dire Straits, Jesse Cook, and Fleetwood mac) I realized the imaging / soundstage was quite different among the two. I came to the conclusion that the Nrt produced material with an "airy" quality to all the notes, it made it seem like the soundstage grew and the imaging was more pronounced. Cymbal notes hung in the room longer while the original sierra seemed to play the note and it was gone. The sound of the Nrt was a large improvement in my mind. The extended high frequencies were very noticeable without any trace of sibilance. I can attest to Dave's measurements and how far the Nrt tweet extends on the top end!

Overall, I was most impressed:) I was surprised at the male vocal improvements as the midrange became more forward and fuller in my mind. The cymbals, hi hats, and guitar plucks all sounded so much more accurate, were more pronounced, and seemed to float in the air with better separation with the other notes being produced.

Congrats to Dave F and crew, the Nrt upgrade was well worth the price of admission:D Normally I am not one to notice subtle differences in the audio world(nor am I an expert) but the differences were very noticeable when comparing them side by side.

Equipment -
Yamaha Rx-v1600
Toshiba 4800 DVD player - source
Treated theater room, great for mids and highs, although I have no bass traps, so the bass is overly emphasized. Fine for movies:p

Tracks-
Nils Lofgren - Keith dont go, man in the moon
Daryl Stuermer (Genesis band player) - man on the corner, in too deep
Fleetwood mac - Go insane live, family man, and seven wonders
NIN - into the void
Santana - corazon espinado
Jack Johnson - rodeo clowns, upside down, breakdown
DIre Straits - ride across the river
Rob Thomas - all that I am
Jesse Cook - switchback, virtue, cafe mocha

Next on my list.....

Arrival of my Ascend Towers, name TBD:)


Thanks!
Brandon

[SunByrne]

OK, upgraded my pair of Sierra-1s last night. The videos are excellent guides! Great that you took the time to make those.

A few thoughts on the process:

* You need a really deep socket for the 1/2" nut. I have a standard socket set and I couldn't use it because it wasn't deep enough—the posts stick out pretty far. However, they're also not on that tight; one good turn with a wrench and I was able to get them off them by hand.

* If you have a glossy finish, I'd also recommend keeping the cotton gloves that came with the speakers handy. I got no end of fingerprints on mine and had to wipe them down a lot once I was done. Should have used the gloves!

* Took me about 30 minutes for the first speaker and maybe 15 for the second. It's pretty quick and not at all difficult. The toughest part was getting the crossover unscrewed, as there was a little glue or resin or something on those screws that made it hard to get a good bite with the screwdriver. Plus, you can't really see the left rear screw while you do it. But that's pretty minor.

Now, the final product: FANTASTIC! Does indeed provide that extra sizzle; cymbals are a little crisper, acoustic guitar is a little sharper, overall a little more detail, etc. Pretty much exactly as promised, they sound more like metal domes, but without the occasional harshness you get from metals. I've always kind of preferred metal domes and always tolerated the fatigue but this seems like the best of both worlds. Amazingly, it doesn't seem to have affected the overall balance of the speaker, it's not brighter or more forward, just clearer and crisper. I thought very highly indeed of the Sierra-1s before, and my only negative was the crispness at the top end. Now they're as close to perfect as can probably be achieved for that size and price of speaker. Kudos, Dave!!

BTW, the new crossover is quite something. Those are some pretty serious-looking inductors and capacitors, there, Dave. I hope you got a good deal on the parts...

Also interesting that the new tweeter is substantially lighter than the old one. Smaller magnet, yet feels faster. Some serious engineering in these beasties as well--what's the secret, Dave?

[curtis]

Also interesting that the new tweeter is substantially lighter than the old one. Smaller magnet, yet feels faster. Some serious engineering in these beasties as well--what's the secret, Dave?
Dave can elaborate more, but I think it is because the tweeter magnet/ring is made of neodymium, which is lighter and more powerful.

[SunByrne]

Indeed, neodymium is probably a major part of it, but I bet that's not the whole story. I'm wondering if the huge capacitors in the crossover play a role, too...

[Mag_Neato]

The NrT tweeter use a Neodymium Ring magnet. Much stronger than a ferrite magnet thus the lighter weight.

I'm loving the NrT upgrade!

[curtis]

Indeed, neodymium is probably a major part of it, but I bet that's not the whole story. I'm wondering if the huge capacitors in the crossover play a role, too...
Sure, the crossover is also tweaked...but we were addressing the reason why the tweeter is lighter. ;)

[MichaelG]

After many hours of breaking in my ears, I am in love with my Nrt upgrades. My wife and I feel it was a significant upgrade for our speakers and worth every penny. My wife out of the blue sent me a text at work "These speakers are AWESOME".

I agree with everyone elses observations. Also with the Sierra-1s I always felt I had to crank up the volume and with the Nrt upgrade I find that music, movies and TV sound more complete and detailed at lower levels. There is another level of joy added and I find myself cycling through all my old DVD concerts and enjoying them all over again in a new way.

Dave, finally I would like to thank you for how you approached the upgrade. It had to have taken a lot of time and engineering to get that new crossover to replace the old one EXACTLY! The upgrade was really easy and to have that as an option vs buying all new speakers says volumes on how you take care of your customers well after the purchase. Your approach to business makes it personal and keeps me connected to Ascend Acoustics. I have never felt that way about any other purchase in my experiences.

Michael

[logicology]

My NrT Upgrade is going very badly...

Most importantly, the holes in the NrT crossover are no where close to the holes from my old cross over. So as it stands, the NrT crossover is laying loose at the bottom of the cabinet.

I encountered other random, and less important, problems too having to do with the binding posts.

Anyone else encounter these problems? Do I have a freak speaker here or what? I only half-upgraded one of my three Sierras so far.

[ride525]

You might try calling Ascend and see what they say. I'm sure they would be interested in your upgrade problem. And post back.

[Mag_Neato]

My NrT Upgrade is going very badly...

Most importantly, the holes in the NrT crossover are no where close to the holes from my old cross over. So as it stands, the NrT crossover is laying loose at the bottom of the cabinet.

I encountered other random, and less important, problems too having to do with the binding posts.

Anyone else encounter these problems? Do I have a freak speaker here or what? I only half-upgraded one of my three Sierras so far.

I posted my upgrade process with the 1st generation cabinets/crossovers here, post #37. Hope this helps.
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=4526&page=4

[DPlettner]

My NrT Upgrade is going very badly...

Most importantly, the holes in the NrT crossover are no where close to the holes from my old cross over. So as it stands, the NrT crossover is laying loose at the bottom of the cabinet.

I encountered other random, and less important, problems too having to do with the binding posts.

Anyone else encounter these problems? Do I have a freak speaker here or what? I only half-upgraded one of my three Sierras so far.You might want to start reading a bit earlier in the thread that Mag_Neato mentioned and read all the posts. Dave F. comments here:

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?p=35966#post35966

-Dave

[DPlettner]

I always felt I had to crank up the volume and with the Nrt upgrade I find that music, movies and TV sound more complete and detailed at lower levels.
I agree 100%. It is so much easier to perceive dialog articulation when watching TV shows with the NrTs that shows can be enjoyed at lower volume levels.

At the risk of disturbing all the good karma, Dave did warn us that the NrTs might be less forgiving than the classic Sierra 1s (although he later stated that Californication sounded great). I was watching football last weekend, and there were some local commercials with screechy audio. They would have been bad enough with the classic Sierra 1s, but with the NrTs I thought my ears were going to start bleeding :). However, I really can't blame this on the NrTs since they were just revealing the true horrible nature of the commercials' audio.

-Dave

[davef]

One of my old crossovers has a weird discoloration around one of the screw holes, and the big black thing (resistor?) has a loose flap, like its wrapper is starting to come off. Are these just cosmetic issues or did something happen?
Here's a pic of the weird discoloration:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5001/5248603879_eb12357afb_b.jpg

This is odd but I can't see enough detail from your picture. It looks like only the PCB is discolored and not any of the components. This could simply have been due to the board sitting on the flow soldering machine longer than normal. No reason to be concerned and if you send the crossover back to us, I will make sure to check it out.

[davef]

Now, the final product: FANTASTIC! Does indeed provide that extra sizzle; cymbals are a little crisper, acoustic guitar is a little sharper, overall a little more detail, etc. Pretty much exactly as promised, they sound more like metal domes, but without the occasional harshness you get from metals. I've always kind of preferred metal domes and always tolerated the fatigue but this seems like the best of both worlds. Amazingly, it doesn't seem to have affected the overall balance of the speaker, it's not brighter or more forward, just clearer and crisper. I thought very highly indeed of the Sierra-1s before, and my only negative was the crispness at the top end. Now they're as close to perfect as can probably be achieved for that size and price of speaker. Kudos, Dave!!

Awesome news and thanks for sharing. I think we are at 100% customer approval with the NrT upgrade and this is quite a bit higher than I expected.


BTW, the new crossover is quite something. Those are some pretty serious-looking inductors and capacitors, there, Dave. I hope you got a good deal on the parts...

I am quite proud of this crossover layout but unfortuntately for us -- as you have noticed, it is rather expensive. We get a decent price by purchasing in bulk quantiies but I must admit that I would like to try and figure out a way to get our profit margin up a bit higher.



Also interesting that the new tweeter is substantially lighter than the old one. Smaller magnet, yet feels faster. Some serious engineering in these beasties as well--what's the secret, Dave?

This lighter weight is due to a change in the magnet material from ferrite to neodymium (a neo ring magnet). Neodymium is the strongest permanent magnet material known to man -- such that it requires much less material to generate a strong magnet field.


Indeed, neodymium is probably a major part of it, but I bet that's not the whole story. I'm wondering if the huge capacitors in the crossover play a role, too...

There is actually a lot going on with the tweeter aside from the neo-ring magnet...

1) We are using a shorter former and a shorter voice coil. This greatly reduces the mass of the diaphragm structure thus reducing inertia / stored energy allowing the dome to move with more precision.

2) The motor assembly is now an "underhung" design such that the entire voice coil stays within the magnetic field regardless of the frequency or output level required of the tweeter. This greatly improves linearity, dynamics and also lowers distortion. It results in more detail, greater HF extension and improved transparency.

3) We changed the voice coil winding material to CCAW (copper clad aluminum wire) which improves conductivity while further reducing mass.

Aside from aesthetics, our NrT has more in common with the SEAS Excel T29CF001 than it does with the standard Sierra-1 tweeter.

[GirgleMirt]

One of my woofers was stuck and was very difficult to remove. When I finally got it loose, a small chip of the piano black finish broke off. I was able to glue the chip back in, and it does not look too bad. Also, I use this speaker as a rear speaker, so it is not a big deal. However, people that have not done this upgrade yet should keep this in mind as they are removing the woofers.

-Dave
Had the same thing happen :o One of them got off easily and went on equally easily, the 2nd one was much harder to get off and I had to go through the tweeter/bracing to push it out... When I tried to the woofer put back in, it wouldn't go in, got kinda stuck, then a small bit also chipped off... Also glued it back in, not too apparent, I won't say anything to anyone, they're in the (dark) HT room with projector anyhow so I doubt anybody will notice :)

Just a few minutes of listening so far, but I'll second what everybody said so far about the NrT upgrade, fantastic! Makes them a bit more forward than before imho, where before they were slightly recessed, and definitely adds some high end and even mid detail. Definitive improvement! :D Looking forward to more listening time!

[cynan]

Finally got around to upgrading my 3 Sierras. Everything went smoothly, so I guess that means I have the newer cabinets (not surprising as I've only owned them for 1.5 years).

I didn't have the 1/2" hex driver, but all binding post nuts could be finger loosened except one. Instead of the hex driver, I found that my small needle-nose vice grips worked well enough to put a little extra torque on the nuts when re-installing the binding posts.

In the process, I noticed that I installed the binding post tabs (the plastic discs that sit against the inside of the cabinet) for the first speaker backwards (raised ridges against cabinet instead of facing inward). But I doubt this makes any real difference and am debating whether or not it is worth taking the speaker apart again to correct.

I did a sort of A/B comparison between the right and left channels with a new NRT and original Sierra. To my initial horror, I preferred the sound of the old Sierra. The NRT sounded as if the treble was overly airy and fake sounding compared to the original Sierra. Then I discovered that I had somehow activated a DSP setting :o Turning this off, I was rewarded with a similar impression to what everyone else has been reporting. The NRT sounded more detailed, more airy, without sounding too tinny or metallic.

I don't know if this is just my perception, but the NRT sounds slighty more sensitive then the original Sierra. Background hiss (when I put my ear next to the tweeter) seems a bit louder and I am generally finding that I can get away with turning the volume up a hair less to achieve usual listening levels. Or maybe this is all in my head and what I am hearing is a product of the improvement in resolution.

Whether it is worth the upgrade price (fairly modest in my opinion) is up to the individual, but I was definitely able to perceive an upgrade in SQ. Just make sure you turn off all signal processing when testing the results for yourself :o

[King]

I prefer the original Sierras-1's
The NRT can sound tinny on some recordings with highs sounding Overstated
I own both styles.
But only on day 2 with the NRT upgrade. So we will see....

[GirgleMirt]

I prefer the original Sierras-1's
The NRT can sound tinny on some recordings with highs sounding Overstated
I own both styles.
But only on day 2 with the NRT upgrade. So we will see....
Weird, the NrT Sierras are more forward but sounding tinny? Do you have examples of recordings where this happens? This might be caused by the recording itself...

I've noticed that low quality MP3s get exposed a lot more by the NrTs with the added detail in the high end... Then some records just don't have good quality to begin with, that's what sucks, the better the equipment the more the short comings of recordings become evident...

[King]

[QUOTE= Then some records just don't have good quality to begin with, that's what sucks, the better the equipment the more the short comings of recordings become evident...[/QUOTE]

True story!

I am a Sierra-1 fanboy. Maybe my ears will adjust to the upgrade.
Krall "Girl in the other Room " sacd
I preferred the original Sierra's sound because the cymbals seemed pronounced and to linger out front with the NRT. One example.
1/2 way through track one, is a good spot for comparison.
Plus all of track two at mid level db's (not low).

The more revealing your system becomes, leaves you with less material to play. Soon I will be down to one cd on a loop...

[cynan]

I prefer the original Sierras-1's
The NRT can sound tinny on some recordings with highs sounding Overstated
I own both styles.
But only on day 2 with the NRT upgrade. So we will see....

Too each their own. My girlfriend told me that she thought she preferred the original Sierras... They certainly are more forgiving. It's a good thing, seeing that I am generally preferring the sound of the new NrTs, that they're my speakers and not her's :p

Then again, maybe part of the reason that I prefer the NrTs is because I'm the one that paid for them. Cognitive dissonance can be quite powerful - but I'm fairly certain that my preference for the NrTs is not merely "all in my head". I love the increased resolution on well-mastered string recordings (ie, Beethoven's late quartets). Pianos generally sound more lifelike. Guitar riffs on well recorded rock music sound like they have more energy. I do agree that the soundstage with the NrTs does seem more forward, and imaging, while slightly improved, produces a sound that's a bit more in your face. But overall, I like it. I will have to give Diana Krall a go - haven't done too much listening to vocal centered music - maybe this is where the NrTs will display a chink in the armor.

I've always thought that the Sierra-1s were an excellent neutral sounding hi-fi monitor, but with the NrT upgrade, most well-mastered music just seems that much more exciting and intimate, providing that hint of character that if done just right, can make a good hi-fi speaker great. So far so good.

[King]

Too each their own. My girlfriend told me that she thought she preferred the original Sierras... They certainly are more forgiving. It's a good thing, seeing that I am generally preferring the sound of the new NrTs, that they're my speakers and not her's :p
.

My wife like the original Sierra's sound much better too, and had no idea which was which or cared beside me asking, as both were playing the same sacd.

[curtis]

King...do you use any kind of room correction?

[cynan]

My wife like the original Sierra's sound much better too, and had no idea which was which or cared beside me asking, as both were playing the same sacd.

Haha. I hear you. Which is probably why I wasn't too worried when I got that response on my end.

The sort of ironic thing is that women retain their hearing - at least of the higher frequencies - longer than men in general. I'm lucky if I can hear much past 14,000 Hz myself. Some people just don't appreciate what they can, erm, appreciate. Or maybe the NrT tweeter is reproducing harmonic overtones that are off-putting that I can't hear but your wife, my gilfriend, and yourself can. :p

In the unfortunate event that the above is found to be sexist, I'm just speaking from personal experience. I'm sure there are tons of female audio gear enthusiasts out there somewhere, I just haven't met any in person.

[King]

[QUOTE=cynan;36315]Haha. I hear you. Which is probably why I wasn't too worried when I got that response on my end.

The sort of ironic thing is that women retain their hearing - at least of the higher frequencies - longer than men in general. I'm lucky if I can hear much past 14,000 Hz myself. Some people just don't appreciate what they can, erm, appreciate. Or maybe the NrT tweeter is reproducing harmonic overtones that are off-putting that I can't hear but your wife, my gilfriend, and yourself can. :p
/QUOTE]

I left the worst part out. I made her describe the difference and she said tinny. Exactly what I was thinking. So its real.
Hopefully I come to love it over time or for certain music.

[ctbarker32]

Hi,

I received my NrT upgrade shortly after Thanksgiving and have been enjoying the increased resolution.

But, I have also been hearing some "peakiness" in the upper midrange which without doing any research I judged to be in the 2k-4k frequency region. I have since reviewed the graphs that DaveF posted a while back comparing the original Sierra-1 to the NrT upgrade. He notes that he was able to smooth out or eliminate the 3db dip at 3k. Based on my hearing this is where I am hearing some pretty piercing sounds on some recordings. It does seem to be highly recording dependent. For example, I listened to Danny Gatton's "88 Elmira St." which is filled with Telecaster type guitar sounds. With the NrT it becomes a bit too much to handle for me at least. Other recordings with prominent violins can also exhibit this somewhat piercing quality. Again, it does appear very recording dependent. I listen to a lot of ECM Records releases that are always impeccably engineered and I haven't noticed as much the problem I describe.

I have spent a lot of time making tweaks to my system with slight adjustments to speaker placement and toe in. I also rewired my system interconnects with DIY cable based on Gotham GAC 4/1 microphone cable and Canare 4S11 speaker wire. I also recently installed the Q Plugs B since my speakers are 14 inches out from the wall in a modest sized living room. I finally have placed some VPI bricks (one each) on top of each Sierra-1 that sit on weight filled target metal stands. All of these tweaks have improved things but there still remains this peakiness in the upper midrange that I see others here reference?

My signal component chain includes Emotiva USP-1 preamp, Emotiva UPA-2 amp, Logitech Duet Receiver into Channel Islands VDA-2 DAC, Sony HD Radio, VPI Scout Turntable with Benz Glider cartridge.

I wonder if the NrT tweeter just needs time to settle and if it will change in sound over time? I guess I have a little less than 2 months of time on them? Or, I wonder if a crossover change might address this peakiness I and a few others have reported? I would be willing to pay for a crossover swap/exchange if one were developed that addressed my concern.

I am a fifty year old male that seems to have most of my hearing still intact accounting for age, etc. I find it interesting that there have been some reports that females have found the NrT upgrade less preferable to the original Sierra-1s since it is a widely held belief that women have more extended hearing than men at relative ages?

I've waited a while to post my thoughts so I hope I have not jumped the gun by posting erroneous results. I do think DaveF has done some great work with the NrT upgrade but I'd love to get some thoughts on what I and some others might be hearing.

Thanks.

-CB

[cynan]

Hi,

I find it interesting that there have been some reports that females have found the NrT upgrade less preferable to the original Sierra-1s since it is a widely held belief that women have more extended hearing than men at relative ages?

I've waited a while to post my thoughts so I hope I have not jumped the gun by posting erroneous results. I do think DaveF has done some great work with the NrT upgrade but I'd love to get some thoughts on what I and some others might be hearing.



Thank you for sharing your detailed observations.

About women seeming to prefer the original Sierra-1. If your statement is solely based on the two examples shared in this thread (mine included), then I don't think it is fair to say at this point that there is any sort of systematic difference in preference by sex. If indeed the "harsh" quality of the NrT is most prevalent at 3-4 kHz, then there is no physiological basis for this. While women retain better hearing in the higher range, this is in the 10-12 kHz and up range. Most men, with otherwise healthy hearing, should have no problem hearing up to 10 Khz or higher.

I would think that the main culprit here is the NrT's ability to accurately reproduce distortion on "poorer" quality or compression artifacts on lossy digital formats better than the original Sierra. Another possbile contributing factor might be that the NrT is reproducing lower order harmonic overtones at certain frequencies (ie, 3-4 kHz) that the original Sierra could not simultaneously reproduce as faithfully.

All in all, it could very well be that the crossover is tuned a bit "hot" in the 3-4 kHz (and possibly other segments) of the frequency range.

However, at this point I would guess that the largest factor here is one of relativity. If most people here are used to the original Sierra and "subconsciously" have their sound stuck in their head as a benchmark, then in comparison, the NrT will sound a bit hot in the upper frequencies. It will be interesting to read reviews of the NrT by people unfamiliar with the original Sierra.

But you are right, if enough people care to report their listening experience, time will shed more light on this.

[GirgleMirt]

The best would be to actually post particular tracks where the issue arises and have people compare...

Another thing to note, which might or may not be at issue here, some people just prefer a certain type of playback! Google failing me... Just found this:
In the 1980's, several well known industry types, including studio engineers, set up a little test at the Hollywood Bowl in Los Angeles. They invited a large number of audio industry leaders, professional musicians, and audio equipment reviewers to the event to "test some high quality new loudspeakers".

Questionaires were passed out and all attendees were asked to fill out their ideas of the performance of the new technology loudspeakers. Curtains were drawn and the music was started. Various types of music was played. Questionaires were collected and the curtains were opened.

You guessed it. There was a real orchestra playing ALL the music. None of the speakers were used. Quite a few of these 'trained' respondents said the "speakers" were of poor quality. Most said they were okay. Only a small number of participants guessed what was going on and stated they thought a real orchestra was playing.

When building and testing some speakers, I was browsing on my sister's Ipod just looking for an actual good track to listen to the speakers, until I hit the next button, and was rewarded with an absolutely fantastic, life-like, cymbal sound, so much that I said "holy shit!", looked up with eyes wide opened, and to my dismay, she was standing next to a drum kit (in storage) with a drum stick in her hand just above one of the cymbals, she said: "What?", I said "fu**... I thought that was the speakers..." :(

I can't say I've heard what you guys are describing with the NrTs though... To me the upgrade was an improvement from top to bottom, and although, like I've said, some mp3s or low quality music can get exposed, the "good stuff" just shines and sounds better than it ever did in my room...

How does your rooms look like? Is it lively? Have you tried to play with placement, toe in, listening position, etc? (my room is treated, has absorbing panels on both sides as well as some in back and front wall & corners behind speakers... But as every room is different and plays a very significant role in end sound...)

Anyhow, can definitely be speakers too, I'm not particularly sensitive to brightness and although can definitely get fatigued/annoyed if it's 'bad', don't find it's the case with the NrTs, quite neutral, for better or worse... And while some recordings can sound not too good, on good recordings it just sounds amazing... Resolution/detail is really fantastic!

[King]

Hi,
I I've waited a while to post my thoughts so I hope I have not jumped the gun by posting erroneous results. Thanks.
-CB

I jumped the gun as I also own Sonus Faber and Flagship McIntosh speakers.
It's not only bad recordings that sound tinny in my opinion.
Its a certain notes or a certain high pitch.
The beauty is if someone does not like the voice of the NRT's they can return and get the original Sierra -1's. The Best deal going!!


NRT's are something different, so I will keep them a while and see if I adjust to them or fit music that works well with the NRT's. I am going to run a Concept table next.

[ctbarker32]

I appreciate the replies so far. I hope that DaveF will weigh in with his thoughts at some point.

Just to address some points raised so far. All my listening is done via FLAC based lossless rips of CDs to my Squeezebox server that I have been running for the past six years or so. Some of my tests include music of better than cd resolution such as 48k/24b, 96k/24b, etc.

I have a collection approaching 5,000 cds and another couple thousand LPs. While I have my share of poorly recorded albums, my critical listening has been with my best beloved and known sources. These are albums I have listened to for some 40 years that I know like the proverbial back of my hand.

Also, I have several other audio systems in my house that include things like Martin Logan Vantage speakers, McCormack amps and preamps, Benchmark Dacs, etc.

I think "King" has made a good point that there are certain notes that seem to set off a very piercing quality to the Nrt upgrade that I find pretty aggressive. I have already mentioned the Danny Gatton guitar with it's multitude of Telecaster guitars as a good example. I can start listing many other albums if the community needs more examples. I'm not sure how many I need to list?

I really do like the improvements in detail and musical dynamics this upgrade has brought but I am puzzled by this piercing quality that surfaces on certain recordings?

I look forward to further discussions.

-CB

[King]

I really do like the improvements in detail and musical dynamics this upgrade has brought but I am puzzled by this piercing quality that surfaces on certain recordings?
I look forward to further discussions.
-CB

Plus 1

[curtis]

King...did you miss this question?


King...do you use any kind of room correction?

[King]

King...did you miss this question?

Yes I missed it.

No room correction for any Sierra's. (2 channel system's)

Just My Home theater room uses room correction.

[curtis]

Yes I missed it.

No room correction for any Sierra's. (2 channel system's)

Just My Home theater room uses room correction.
Thanks..

Have you tried changing toe-in and out?

[GirgleMirt]

For example, I listened to Danny Gatton's "88 Elmira St." which is filled with Telecaster type guitar sounds. With the NrT it becomes a bit too much to handle for me at least.
Do you have a particular song with time to highlight the problem? I'm listening to http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/search/song?q=Danny%20Gatton%20%2288%20Elmira%20St.%22 the song "Pretty blue" on my computer setup and it does have a kind of quite harsh/annoying sound... Not sure if that's what you're referring to, but even if I haven't listened to it on the NrTs, just one of those songs I think will be 'annoying' to listen to on any neutral system... (non-tube, flat FR) Seems to lack bass, no 'meat', just harsh 'middy' sound...

And it is a tele... hehe.. Telecasters are known to have that kind of twang sound, and again it will depend on the actual guitar, the amp settings, mic, its location, mixing, and I don't know what else... Guit with distortion isn't usually the best reference. Even the sound of unamplified acoustic guitars can vary significantly just from guitar to guitar, and even with brand/type of strings, the pick, picking, etc. so again it's a bit of a crapshoot for evaluating recordings, and I say that absolutely loving playing and listening to guit... And that's not even taking into consideration the actual exercise of recording a performance... Or actually knowing exactly if for example the harmonics of a particular track are played just right or are highlighted by a system...


Other recordings with prominent violins can also exhibit this somewhat piercing quality. Again, it does appear very recording dependent.
Again, we have the same thing with violins as well as many different instruments, instruments can have a piercing sound to begin with and with the recording, mixing, EQing and all, they can end up sounding like velvet or be absolutely ear piercing... If the recorded sound is piercing, it'll sound piercing on a good system...


I listen to a lot of ECM Records releases that are always impeccably engineered and I haven't noticed as much the problem I describe.
Which again points to recordings?

I'm curious to hear Dave's answer if one is coming, but it might be interesting to run some sweeps or tones and see something is detectable... A piercing 'quality' could be some spike in FR, but even running some tones could probably be detected as one might be louder than others, or sound 'grating', I actually didn't bother to measure mine as simple listening told me everything was quite fine...

Again, I think that just identifying a specific track (Ex: on Track #3 of album x I hear 'distortion' at 2m30, or X instrument should be further back, etc.) could give a better idea. Of course would be best to all have the same recording and not use 'high quality' streamed music, but even that's better than nothing... I know a few here have the "chesky demonstration disk"...

2 days ago I was listening to out of others Yoko Kanno's "Flying Dragon" http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/search/song?q=yoko%20kanno%20flying%20dragon where for example there's a lot of potential for ear grating and fatigue, the NrTs passed the test flawlessly imho... Same for "Dance of Curse" http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/search/song?q=yoko%20kanno%20dance%20of%20curse and pretty much everything else I've thrown at it... From Pink Floyd, R.Waters (boy amused to death sounds FANTASTIC on NrTs!!! :eek:), King Crimson, Supertramp, Bach, SRV, Don Ross, D'Agostino, Montreal Guitar Trio, Dave Brubeck, the NrTs just give me the impression of "spot on"...

Again, I think the issue might be more the recordings... Even when you know very well a recording, what's the reference? Past playback systems? That could be problematic... Not the best example, but "Leaving on red hill" : http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/search/song?q=leaving%20on%20red%20hill surprised me, listen to about 1m30 - 2m when the tempo changes, strings join and then percussion and cymbals start. Could definitely sound 'too much', but that's just how it is...

I don't know... What's the reference for recordings? For me it used to be headphones, but mine have been surpassed by the Sierras so that's no good for me anymore... hehehe

[ctbarker32]

Pretty much the entire Danny Gatton record I reference is very hard to listen to on the Nrt. At certain points it comes close to hurting my ears! I'm not listening at high levels - maybe 80 db.

I'm going to start assembling a list of problematic recordings and will post over time.

I notice that DaveF has posted a response to King in the AVSForum. He implies that there must be something wrong but King's upgrades were done in-house by Ascend so that rules out that aspect. I did my upgrades myself carefully according to instructions and feel they are performing as intended.

One thing that could be worth exploring is if there is any sample to sample variation or problem with the Nrt Tweeters themselves. I don't know if DaveF said they tested each tweeter before they sent them out? Also, I guess that there could be something wrong with a component of the crossover as well?

The issue for me is that many recordings can sound wonderful but I can happen across a recording that just drives me up the wall with the ear piercing sound. It appears to be a very small frequency some where in the upper midrange that sets things off. I'm not convinced that it is just a problem of good/bad recordings. The Danny Gatton recording sounds fine on my Martin Logan Vantages and my KRK Rokit 5 nearfield monitors playing the exact same FLAC files from my server.

At least two unrelated people are commenting about what appears to be the same issue. While maybe not statistically significant it does suggest there may be something more here than random results would indicate? We'll have to keep testing to see if this can be figured out?

-CB

P.S One thing I wondered about during the install was if there was any difference in vertical alignment of the tweeter. Using the positive/negative terminals as a reference, I believe that I mounted the tweeters differently in each cabinet. I can't imagine how it would matter? The tweeter can only be placed one of two ways? But maybe I missed or am overlooking an important step?

[davef]

Hi CB and King,

Sorry if I have given you guys the impression that I am not paying attention to your comments. I most certainly am -- I caught a nasty flu bug about a week ago and I have been taking a cocktail of cold medicines just to function, but my head has been in the clouds as a result (not such bad thing)

We have done extensive listening to the Sierra-1 NrT and no matter what I have thrown at it; I have not been able to reproduce what you have been describing. I am most certainly not saying that you are not hearing it, but I have not been able to reproduce it.

Having said that, I have some Danny Gatton CD's on there way here so we can synchronize our listening.

Please check a few things for me...

1. Please run the system in mono and check each speaker individually for the piercing sound you have described. It is best to place the speaker in the middle of the room.

2. Double check the internals of the speaker. Make sure each crossover is firmly mounted to the bottom of the speaker and that nothing is loose or vibrating. If the crossover is not tight, the PCB can vibrate against the wood and this can create a multitude of problems.

3. Be sure all connections to the tweeter and woofer are extremely tight and that the internal cables are not vibrating against the cabinet walls. Also check that the binding post connections (internally) are extremely tight.

4. Let me know if you upgraded a newer Sierra-1 or one of the original Sierra-1's (a more difficult upgrade path)

These are the first steps to take and we will proceed from there...


I notice that DaveF has posted a response to King in the AVSForum. He implies that there must be something wrong but King's upgrades were done in-house by Ascend so that rules out that aspect. I did my upgrades myself carefully according to instructions and feel they are performing as intended.

Actually, I was not implying that something was wrong -- King's descriptions of the Sierra-1 NrT make it sound like an entirely different speaker than the standard Sierra-1, and it should not be sounding that way. The scientist in me is looking for possibilities as his descriptions are very different from the feedback we have gathered.

I am also not convinced that you and King are experiencing the same issue as King has indicated unnatural cymbal crashes that linger (amongst other characteristics) and that is usually an indication of room reverberation or sibilance in the system. I feel the Sierra-1 NrT reproduces the shimmer and decay of cymbals more accurately than the Sierra-1, with a bit less of a soft dome sound to them but also being more revealing. I do not believe you are having issues with the highs.


One thing that could be worth exploring is if there is any sample to sample variation or problem with the Nrt Tweeters themselves. I don't know if DaveF said they tested each tweeter before they sent them out? Also, I guess that there could be something wrong with a component of the crossover as well?

Every crossover and tweeter is extensively tested before it leaves our facility. In fact, each tweeter is first measured by SEAS (and recorded) and then we test it once again prior to shipping. I honestly do not suspect a problem with the tweeter... While tweeter problems can arise (they are highly mechanical devices), problems are not typically limited to a specific frequency range nor would they be recording specific.

If there is a problem, it is more likely in the crossover. For example, while we fully test the crossover prior to shipping -- flexing of the PC board itself during shipping and subsequent installation can indeed cause problems. A good example of this is if upgrading from the original Sierra-1 where the new crossover will not fit into the original mounting holes such that it is mounted differently and quite possibly under stress or has been stressed (flexed). Stress on a component lead (especially a capacitor) can cause many different problems. Unfortunately, these are things we can not test for in the factory, but thankfully -- we are running very impressive numbers right now for even customer performed upgrades :)

While there could indeed be a problem with a crossover component, we must also realize that there might not be a problem at all and the speaker is performing to spec. The frequency range you are describing is one that the human ear is most sensitive to and more information in this range from the Sierra-1 NrT simply might not match well with your hearing. We can not and should not use our own ears as a reference. The shape of our head, the shape and size of our ears and ear canals -- amongst so many other variables -- greatly influences how we hear. And when comparing to other speakers, one must compare the entire frequency range and not just one range of frequencies. For example, if you hear some piercing sounds with one speaker in a specific range compared to another on a few specific recordings, on a different recording, how do the two speakers compare to each other? Which speaker reveals more detail and sounds more accurate overall?


P.S One thing I wondered about during the install was if there was any difference in vertical alignment of the tweeter. Using the positive/negative terminals as a reference, I believe that I mounted the tweeters differently in each cabinet. I can't imagine how it would matter? The tweeter can only be placed one of two ways? But maybe I missed or am overlooking an important step?

No, the vertical alignment of the tweeter will not matter at all.

I feel the best way to proceed from here is to run through the few checks I listed above and if nothing changes from there, I would very much like to arrange to get your speakers sent back to our facility for measuring and then a comparison evaluation with our reference set of Sierra-1 NrT, using the same music selections you have described as being piercing.

Please send me a PM or email (email is preferable) and we can move forward from there.

I should also mention that all feedback is greatly appreciated. While it is impossible to manufacture a loudspeaker that everyone loves, we do want to try ;) Your feedback combined with our know-how and resources are the blueprints for our products. :D

[ctbarker32]

Thanks Dave for the very detailed response and ideas on how to proceed. I am going to spend this weekend following your steps to check out my speakers and will report back my findings. While I did do my upgrade myself, I did do it carefully and watched the videos and believe that it was properly installed. I will check though, as you suggest, if something has changed since I did the upgrade.

I did some serious listening again and took some notes while scrolling through my music collection. It is really puzzling to me that on some tracks the NrTs sound alive and great and then listen to another track and hear the piercing sound I describe. I don't believe it is just a question of good/bad recordings. I think it is more a matter that some tracks don't have an abundance of sound energy in the frequency region that is bothering me.

From my listening notes:

Listening to a number of Alison Krauss & Union Station cds. My experience is these are impeccably recorded. From the "Lonely Runs Both Ways" cd, song Restless, I really notice a "raspiness" on AK's voice I was not previously aware of. I listen to the same track on my Benchmark DAC via Sennheiser headpones and do not hear the raspiness.

I also notice a lot of "shhh" sounds that seem overly emphasized. Sibilance? Another example is the new album by Pierre Bensusan "Vividly". I became aware as I listened to the vocals on this album that it sounded like the singer has a lisp. I have listened to him for decades and seen him live. He doesn't have a lisp. When listening on the NrTs he has a lisp?

Listening to Norah Jones Come Away with Me I again hear some "raspiness" in her voice I was not previously aware of.

Changing music style I listened to Bill Bruford's "Feels Good to Me". This is an old cd that was mastered before the loudness wars and thus needs the gain set higher to fully enjoy. The cd sounds quite good and the NrT clearly reveal the analog tape source (hiss) of this recording. Lots of mallet instruments and drums/cymbals. The guitarist Allan Holdsworth is prominent on this recording. On the NrTs with the rest of the album at an an appropriate volume the guitar borders on piercing. I have never experienced this with this album before the NrT and I know this album like the proverbial back of my hand.

Here's one more example. Listening to the Grateful Dead's Mars Hotel and the track Unbroken Chain. This track has an odd sound throughout the song that sounds like an airplane landing sound. Before listening, I anticipated this might cause the piercing sound I hear but to my surprise the track sound good and balanced except - Jerry Garcia's guitar borders on piercing!

So, I don't know if I have helped describe what I'm hearing or not? This is the most puzzling speaker evaluation I have ever experienced. I consider myself a really dedicated audiophile and spend most of free time practicing my hobby. I do appreciate Dave's attention and I hope I do not send him on a wild goose chase but I do feel confident of what I am hearing in my system.

Thanks.

-CB

[ctbarker32]

Please check a few things for me...

1. Please run the system in mono and check each speaker individually for the piercing sound you have described. It is best to place the speaker in the middle of the room.


Okay, I have performed this initial check. Set my preamp to Mono, disconnected one speaker at a time. Took the grills off. Listened carefully to Gatton's "88 Elmira St" cd. Both speakers sound identical. Same piercing sound. At least this eliminates that one speaker is somehow defective or out of spec?

-CB

[Quinn]

The "raspiness" and the ssssh of sibilance aren't introduced by speakers but are revealed by some. To me it sounds like you're getting more revealing details with the NrTs that the the regular Sierras weren't able to reproduce and those extra details aren't to your tastes.

Norah Jones has never been embraced by high end audiophiles due to what you talk about since their systems revealed it.

I seemed to remember that when the Sierras came out there were a few posts/threads about discovering how poorly recorded some people's favorites were.

[GirgleMirt]

Well some speakers add sibilance but I haven't noticed it with the Sierras... Listened to Gatton's song I've linked earlier but in lossless, and for some reason seems to sound better in the low registers (better balance) than the grooveshark version... :confused: Definitely less harsh too.

Anyhow, I can still detect a sort of harshness, but can't really explain it... I hear the same thing on my NrTs as I do on my nearfield computer setup so really think it's related to the recording. Other records don't have that same thing... I've checked the file in a wave editor and although I'm no expert it looked fine to me, not really clipped, and unlike the the compressed groove shark version it wasn't as bass anemic as I first thought...

Maybe it's some sort of high frequency noise? What's weird is that I can't really pinpoint the 'harshness' in terms of precise sound but still something in that recording that's definitively sort of annoying... (sort of ear grating) :confused: Or yeah, maybe it's in the midrange, I don't really know...

Switch record and it's gone though... If it was speakers, I think I'd have heard it with other records and wouldn't have heard it on a second setup... Did you say you never heard the same thing on other setups? Weird...

Had half typed a reply a couple days ago but Dave already answered most things..



The issue for me is that many recordings can sound wonderful but I can happen across a recording that just drives me up the wall with the ear piercing sound. It appears to be a very small frequency some where in the upper midrange that sets things off. I'm not convinced that it is just a problem of good/bad recordings. The Danny Gatton recording sounds fine on my Martin Logan Vantages and my KRK Rokit 5 nearfield monitors playing the exact same FLAC files from my server.
2$ on recording :p

Martin Logan... Hmmm.... I don't know if electrostatics are the best reference... I'd point out more to speakers like JMLabs Utopias, Dynaudios, or whatever, or whatever uses a high end tweeter... It's just that eletrostatics sound so different... KRKs again isn't the best reference, there's better studio monitors out there, probably aren't as resolving as the NrTs...

Don't want to blame other speakers for not hearing it, but I'm pretty confident that if you went to a shop and listened to that track on different high end setups you'd also hear the issue... Are you sure you don't hear it on the KRKs? ML's are so different they might not reproduce that same hashness as I think they're really not speakers which will ever sound harsh... Instead always sound like if the audio image was only semi tangible... Never "in your face" kind of sound, even if the recording dictated that the sound should be right in your face... (Well can be 'in your face', just not in the same manner as dynamic speakers...)

[GirgleMirt]

Also noticed this sibilance talked about earlier on a few occasions, but again I'd blame the recording and not the speakers.

A particular striking and quite obvious example:

Ex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMPIbx6SU5o
1m40

I hear it too on my comp setup, but at a lesser level as the speakers are much less revealing...

I'm no recording engineer, but I believe it's due to the microphone, you often see artists in studio using a sort of 'disk' in between themselves and the microphone, I bet they didn't use one or used some poor mics or something...

Ah yes, quick google:

Sibilance is the term for harsh "sss" or "sh" sounds in a vocal recording. There are a few ways of dealing with the problem:

Before recording: Look for microphones with a "flat" response, which tend to suppress sibilance. Many high-end vocal mics deal with the problem with larger diaphragms and other built-in components that moderate these specific signals. You can also run the microphone through signal processor that features a "de-esser," which you can adjust to cut sibilance.

During recording: Experiment with the microphone's position relative to the speaker/singer. Often backing the microphone away a bit, angling it down, or having the person sing slightly to one side of it will reduce the sound energy that's causing the sibilance to begin with.

After recording: If your vocal track features too much sibilance, you can use sound editing software to reduce it. Be careful, though - just cutting the sibilance frequency (around 8 kHz) across the board can deaden the sound of the track. For optimal results, identify the specific areas on the waveform which sibilance is a problem and selective cut the 8 kHz volume in those areas.

Remember, too, that your sibilance problem will be different with each performer. There's no "one-size-fits-all" solution for every recording situation.

Again, it's not because you hear something on some speakers that it's invariably a flaw of that speaker... Now I'll admit that on my different setups (headphones, speakers), it's definitely most obvious on the NrTs, but at the same time the NrTs are my most resolving playback device... But since the big majority of recordings sound ok and only a few seem to stick out like sore thumbs, my take is that recordings are much more at fault than the speakers...

[edmondwolfman]

I've been on hold for a while but have been waiting for the towers to come available. I'm in the market for new speakers because on some music my Axiom M60v2s sound harsh. They have the titanium tweeters. Don't get me wrong, they don't sound harsh all the time, actually they sound quite good on some music but music in the higher range, some female voices, high pitched guitar get a little fatiguing. What I'm seeing from a lot of you here that have done the Sierra-1 upgrade is starting to scare me a little as I hear the word harsh a lot and since the towers use the same tweeter as the Sierra NrTs I'm thinking they may be harsh to my ears also as that is what I'm trying to get away from.

I'll keep watching here for more posts/information but I need something that doesn't replace sometimes harsh with sometimes harsh.

Thanks for everyones' input, keep it coming.

[Mag_Neato]

I would not call it harsh. The difference between the NrT dome and the Axiom is that the Axiom is metal and the Ascend is a soft dome. The harshness typically associated with metal domes is a result of the metal domes' tendancy at certain frequencies to ring, which is heard as harshness. the fabric dome tweeter does not suffer from this trait. the standard Sierra-1 tweeter stayed smooth and behaved, but in comparison to a metal dome, and now the NrT, does not produce as detailed and airy a sound. While the new NrT tweeter can approach the detail of the metal domes, it does not get harsh like a metal dome. I suspect what people are experiencing with the NrT is that it's increased high frequency reproduction is so great that it is exposing poor recording methods or simply the true sound of certain instruments and vocals. These better resolved sounds are then interpreted by listeners as a defect of the new tweeter.

I find the NrT upgrade has done much more than simply improve the high end response. It has improved midrange presence/clarity/impact and better imaging as well. Unfortunately, if the recording has a high degree of sibilance(The exaggerated "SSSS" sound) then it will be much more apparent.

[RicardoJoa]

A suggestion to CB, have you ever thought about driving the sierra nrt with a different amp and see if you would still hear the siblance or whatever you are hearing. I'm not trying to imply that it could be a problem with the amp, but im sure different amp do make the sound different.

[ctbarker32]

A suggestion to CB, have you ever thought about driving the sierra nrt with a different amp and see if you would still hear the siblance or whatever you are hearing. I'm not trying to imply that it could be a problem with the amp, but im sure different amp do make the sound different.
Been there, done that. I substituted a McCormack DNA 0.5 Deluxe for my Emotiva. Not a shabby amp by any measure. Made zero difference to the sound of the Sierra-1 Nrt.

I've made more modifications to my system since the Nrt upgrade than at any other time. Slight changes in sound but still does not address the excess energy in the 3-4khz I am hearing on at least 20% of my recordings.

I am in direct discussions with DaveF via PM but there are week long delays in responses? So, things progress slowly.

-CB

[davef]

Been there, done that. I substituted a McCormack DNA 0.5 Deluxe for my Emotiva. Not a shabby amp by any measure. Made zero difference to the sound of the Sierra-1 Nrt.

I've made more modifications to my system since the Nrt upgrade than at any other time. Slight changes in sound but still does not address the excess energy in the 3-4khz I am hearing on at least 20% of my recordings.

I am in direct discussions with DaveF via PM but there are week long delays in responses? So, things progress slowly.

-CB

CB -- sorry for the delays.

I have been doing some extensive listening and measurements comparing the Sierra-1 NrT to the standard Sierra-1 and quite a few other highly regarded loudspeakers (using the source material you have recommended.) I am just not hearing nor am I able to measure what you are considering to be excess energy in that frequency range. Now, I will say that there is on average 2dB more output in this range compared to the standard Sierra-1.


Slight changes in sound but still does not address the excess energy in the 3-4khz I am hearing on at least 20% of my recordings.

You see, that is just it. Loudspeakers are linear devices, if you are hearing what you consider excess energy in that frequency range in some specific recordings, but not others (as you have shared with me, you are enjoying the NrT on these recordings), it is that those recordings have more information in that frequency range. As you know, loudspeakers can not selectively add more information to some recordings and not others (that would be very cool though :cool: )

There are far too many variables involved to give a specific reason why you hear this and others don't. All of us hear and process sounds differently, I suspect that you are more sensitive to this specific frequency range than others are. As a loudspeaker engineer, I would love to design the "perfect" speaker, one that everyone simply loves -- but that would be the same as being a chef and cooking a meal that every person who tastes it would enjoy (spicy or not spicy, salt or no salt, garlic, crunchy or soft, well done or rare?)

That being said, I have been working on something special for you that I am quite confident will be the perfect compromise. Since you like the highs that the NrT upgrade offers, it is a simple task for me to mod your crossover so that the lower range of the tweeter has the same energy as the standard Sierra-1, while keeping the improved high-frequency extension, detail and transient accuracy.

If this option interests you, please let me know ASAP.

Thanks!

[Galwin]

How's that for customer service?!

[Mag_Neato]

Always among the best CS around. To have a customized crossover made to address a sensitivity to certain frequencies by the owner is, without question, outstanding.

[Funambulistic]

That is totally awesome! I had an issue with my speakers last night that was resolved quickly and efficiently by Dina via Dave that took me by surprise (in a most pleasant way :) ) but this is an order of magnitude beyond "good customer service". Very cool!

[ctbarker32]

Hi Everyone,

I thought I would post some interesting developments regarding my comments about the mid-range of the Nrt upgrade.

I spoke with DaveF yesterday and we agreed I should send my Nrt crossovers to him for modification that would change the response of my Nrt's to match the original stock Sierra-1 in the critical 3khz-4khz range that I seem to be sensitive to. As others have rightly pointed out, this is absolutely outstanding customer service! DaveF deserves high praise for bending over backwards to please his customers. I delivered my crossovers to UPS today so DaveF should have them by the end of next week. Since we live on opposite coasts it will be a few weeks until I can sample the modified crossover.

In the meantime, I have gone into my closet of speakers and pulled out a replacement set of speakers to tide me over. The first speaker set I installed was an old set of Polk RT35i's. While obviously no match in any way to the Sierra-1's, they are reasonably pleasing to listen to and pretty good for a mass produced speaker of ten or more years ago.

I remembered that a sibling of my Polks, the RT25i, were favorably reviewed in Stereophile years ago (November 30, 2001) and thanks to the great archives now at Stereophile.com I could instantly pull up the review and most importantly the lab measurements. See Review at Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/417/index.html). I believe that the RT25i and RT35i use the same tweeter.

First, I listened to some of the tracks that had bothered me with the Nrt's. The Bill Bruford Feels Good to Me album was first queued up. I had previously stated that when listening on the Nrt's and with the volume somewhat high to fully enjoy this record I found the guitar of Allan Holdsworth piercing and a bit hard to listen to. This was surprising to me because I had not experienced this with any previous speaker before. Now listening with the Polk RT35i the Allan Holdsworth guitar sounded correct and level appropriate in the mix as I always remembered it. No piercing. I then queued up the Danny Gatton album 88 Elmira Street. This orgy of Telecaster guitars is another example I cited to illustrate what I was hearing. Again, the mix now sounded correct to my ears and room and not piercing.

Lest anyone think I am saying the Polks are in any way in the same league as the Nrt's - I am not. I am just trying to document how another speaker sounds in my room with my source material.

Since I have the frequency response of the Polk's and Sierra-1 and Sierra-1 Nrt, I thought I would do a little Photoshop to see if I could discern anything between the two.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/DS8_iQ1Qgupdj8h5ff_mlvln86AymaQ8NBQa1Ocflto?feat=d irectlink

What I have attempted to do is line up the response of the Sierra-1 and Nrt that DaveF posted a while back and overlay the Polk response. I have aligned on the 3k and 4k boundary of both graphs and on the 0 db line. The stock Sierra-1 is in green, the Nrt is yellow, and the Polk is black. What I see is a pretty close match between the stock Sierra-1 and the Polk in the 3 khz to 4 khz band I am focused on. If (and this may be a big if) I am correct in this observation, then it would explain why I did not find the stock Sierra-1 objectionable when listening to source material rich in 3k-4k tones.

Here is a blown up zoomed in look at the same graph:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/9rSbM4vDN-Fv6BbIREc1a_ln86AymaQ8NBQa1Ocflto?feat=directlink

Again this is focused on the 3k-4k region.

DaveF told me, if I remember correctly from our conversation, that the Nrt has about 2 db more energy in the 3k-4k region.

I just thought this might be interesting to the Ascend Community. I am still puzzled why I seem more sensitive and in the minority in what I hear but alas we all hear differently!

I am super excited to hear the modified crossovers and will report back once I have them up and running.

-CB (Chris Barker)

[curtis]

I am not sure how conclusive that is. That is very specific area of measurement done by different people, environments, and equipment.

It seems you were having problems with specific recordings, how do the Polks sound with recordings where you were not having issues?

[GirgleMirt]

I still think that to get a better idea of the real problem, you should be comparing to the Sierras to more expensive and hopefully accurate/neutral speakers, than cheaper and significantly worst measuring/performing speakers...

Using worst speakers you'll most likely hear less of the true recording... You don't really want to know if worst speakers can sound better, or if you don't hear something on them, but if you can truly hear that harshness on good/better speakers also, which would again demonstrate that the issue is the recording and not the speakers... Not hearing the same thing on worst speakers doesn't really demonstrate anything...

And damn, custom crossover to fit your particular taste/listening, you're one lucky guy! Try that with any other company! :eek:

[ctbarker32]

I still think that to get a better idea of the real problem, you should be comparing to the Sierras to more expensive and hopefully accurate/neutral speakers, than cheaper and significantly worst measuring/performing speakers...

Okay, so which speakers do you suggest? My other system in my house has Martin Logan Vantage ESL speakers. Do they qualify? :D:D

[ctbarker32]

Okay here's a different exercise.

Sitting at my computer. Signal source is Focusrite Saffire Pro 14 Firewire interface out to KRK Rokit 5 powered monitors on Aurelex Mopads. Sitting with my head dead center about 2 feet from speakers. Using MediaMonkey software and accessing same server source files used in the rest of my house systems. Play a track with prominent guitar (Bill Bruford Feels Good to Me - Allan Holdsworth). Listen flat with no equalization. Track sounds fine as it always has for the last 30 years. Engage equalizer. It has settings at 2k and 4k. Boost the 2k and 4k each by 4 db. All other frequencies are flat. Play track again and guitar is much louder in the mix and piercing in quality. Same effect I hear with my Sierra-1 Nrt's.

Maybe I should upload a couple of music samples one flat and one with boost at 2k-4k or 3k-4k so people can then actually hear what I am hearing?

-CB

[curtis]

Okay here's a different exercise.

Sitting at my computer. Signal source is Focusrite Saffire Pro 14 Firewire interface out to KRK Rokit 5 powered monitors on Aurelex Mopads. Sitting with my head dead center about 2 feet from speakers. Using MediaMonkey software and accessing same server source files used in the rest of my house systems. Play a track with prominent guitar (Bill Bruford Feels Good to Me - Allan Holdsworth). Listen flat with no equalization. Track sounds fine as it always has for the last 30 years. Engage equalizer. It has settings at 2k and 4k. Boost the 2k and 4k each by 4 db. All other frequencies are flat. Play track again and guitar is much louder in the mix and piercing in quality. Same effect I hear with my Sierra-1 Nrt's.

Maybe I should upload a couple of music samples one flat and one with boost at 2k-4k or 3k-4k so people can then actually hear what I am hearing?

-CB
Can you upload the original in FLAC format somewhere? I don't own NrT's yet...but I would like to hear.

So, if you lower the overall volume by 3-4dB, do you still hear the harshness? At what volume level do you begin to hear the issue?

[ctbarker32]

Can you upload the original in FLAC format somewhere? I don't own NrT's yet...but I would like to hear.

So, if you lower the overall volume by 3-4dB, do you still hear the harshness? At what volume level do you begin to hear the issue?
I should be able to accomplish this. I'll create some sound samples illustrating what I am hearing and then figure out a location to store them for you to access.

The actual volume level that I typically listen is in the 75 db to 85 db area. I don't think I go much above that except rarely. I would say this is moderately loud but not insanely loud.

I will let you know.

-CB

[curtis]

The actual volume level that I typically listen is in the 75 db to 85 db area. I don't think I go much above that except rarely. I would say this is moderately loud but not insanely loud.

So you are having the issue at this listening level, if the overall listening level by lowered by 4dB, does this piercing/harshness go away?

I can also get the disc as well...just won't happen soon.

[King]

Everything Ct says is circa right.

The upgrade, was not up.

Forget the room or room correction or the More Revealing or I was sent a bad speaker set. Because none of this applies. I have dedicated treated rooms (in two homes, one in each), expensive speakers, equipment, tube equipment, amps ect...

Everyone can hear it, including my cleaning lady with her tin, (vacuum cleaners too loud), ears.

It brought a transistor beach radio sound to the top end. Period!


It turned the Sierra-1 into something I would never buy, if I had heard them first.

The originals are near perfect for the money. Which I also have.

I would not want to encourage Dave to go in this direction, as I am sure he has a lot of yes people around him, as most of us do.

[Mag_Neato]

I guess having both versions available is a good thing. Dave himself stated that the NrT version would not be to everyone's liking.

After seeing the stage production of South Pacific last night, and hearing the live sound/singing, I am even happier with my NrT sound!:cool:

[GirgleMirt]

King: Your crazy! (Not an insult if spelled wrong :p)

You guys got me curious and had me digging out my ECM8000 microphone. The NrT response is pretty damn flat... Definitely no spike in the 5k region, bit higher the highs can go up a little depending on mic placement and distance, but these are in-room measurements, I definitely don't see anything, nor hear, anything which looks or sound off... (unlike other speakers I've had in there...)


It turned the Sierra-1 into something I would never buy, if I had heard them first.

The originals are near perfect for the money. Which I also have.
I'll have to disagree here... Not with the claim that for you the originals are near perfect, but that the originals are better than the NrTs... Yeah, the originals are quite neat, and quite good for the money, BUT, the NrTs are more revealing and more detailed speakers. Maybe that's bad for some, but objectively, they're definitely better...

I won't argue subjective taste, but again, I'd say compare the original Sierras to the top of the line speakers from other companies. For example: JMLabs Utopia, Dynaudio C1, Paradigm's Sigs, B&W 805s, etc. I'm sure you'll notice more similarities between NrTs than originals... The originals were always a touch laid back and although their resolution was very good for 1000$, it still ended a bit short vs no holds barred speakers, which was fine given their price tag... The NrTs are a definite upgrade in that area.

Ok, I can't talk about your particular pair, or about your other "expensive speakers" (which are what btw?), but doing the exercise of going out to listen to more expensive speakers, you'd probably see a trend of the better speakers sounding more like the NrTs and less like the originals...

Every year I hear dozens and dozens of ridiculously expensive speakers (http://www.salonsonimage.com/Galerie/photos-2010A.html), and after, when I get home, am usually quite satisfied for what the <1000$ originals offer in performance. Ridiculously, sounds better than many rooms out there... BUT, one thing they do lack vs ridiculously expensive speakers, is detail and resolution... Which is perfectly fine for 1000$ and the fact that they do pretty much everything quite well, but vs the best show setups, it's probably the one thing which I found was somewhat missing... That last layer of detail, realism...

The NrTs definitely improve that, and also moves the soundstage a bit forward. For me, that's a plus, and it brings the Sierras much closer to those killer killer setups, which ironically too often aren't huge 100000$ speakers...

IMHO, it's all about garbage in, garbage out... If your record is great, it'll sound great... If not, then the NrTs will expose their shortcomings more than the original Sierras... Is that good? Bad? It's the price to pay for their added resolution...


Had this typed before but don't think I had posted it...

The Danny Gatton recording sounds fine on my Martin Logan Vantages and my KRK Rokit 5 nearfield monitors playing the exact same FLAC files from my server.
2$ on recording :p

Martin Logan... Hmmm.... I don't know if electrostatics are the best reference... I'd point more towards similar dynamic speakers like JMLabs Utopias, Dynaudios, or whatever uses a high end tweeter... It's just that eletrostatics sound so different... KRKs again isn't the best reference, there's better studio monitors out there, probably aren't as resolving as the NrTs...

Too bad I couldn't find measurements on the Vantages, but ML aren't a 100% chance of being perfectly flat and being 100% accurate in room...
http://www.stereophile.com/content/martinlogan-sl3-loudspeaker-measurements-part-2
http://www.stereophile.com/content/martinlogan-sl3-loudspeaker-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/martinlogan-aerius-loudspeaker-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/martinlogan-aerius-loudspeaker-measurements-part-2

To me, they're in a different class than dynamic speakers, and sound different. I wouldn't attribute any of their sound attribute to be superior/inferior to dynamic speakers... Not hearing the sibilance or not hearing it the same way vs dynamic, I wouldn't say it says much... I dunno... They all can sound very different too lol Magnepan 20.1 vs smaller ML are significantly different... Again, I'd just compare to the top high end 2 way speakers out there.

Anecdotal evidence... Not sure how much you guys like JMLabs Utopia Be speakers, but it would be an example for me of a speaker which is way above the Sierra's league... Definitely a reference for me. Sounded fantastic every single time I've heard them. Sorry Ascend... Only about ten or twelve times the price of the Sierras too... But it's definitely one of those speakers which raises its chin and pompously walks away vs Sierras, and listening to the originals and thinking about the Labs, you think yep... Not the same... Not the same at all...

Dire Straits for example won't have the 'twang' on the originals vs Labs, the guitar 'attack', just world of a difference... That slight recessed sound + detail difference, just doesn't sound the same at all... but hey, <1000 vs 10000$? Can you do better around the 1000$ budget? I don't think so... Well, the NrTs, to me, sound much more like the JMLabs, and for what, 300$ upgrade?! Just f'ing crazy... So sorry King, but no... The Sierra is not a better speaker, and the NrT is definitely a speaker I'd buy instead of the Sierra... But, YMMV :)

[ctbarker32]

Some interesting research I came across on the web:


The Upper Mid Range

Covering about one octave, this range of frequencies is responsible for the attack on percussive and rhythm instruments and the "projection" of mid range instruments. Equalization can be applied at any frequency in this range but still somewhat centers around 3 kHz.
On the foot drum, boosting 2.5 kHz or 4 kHz increases the attack. 2.5 kHz sounds more like a felt beater and 4 kHz sounds more like a hard-wood beater. These frequencies can also be used to increase the attack or "hit" sound on toms and snare drums.
Guitar lines often get more attack and distinction with equalization added at this range. A small boost (1-3 dB) for the vocal will increase projection. Adding too much energy, in this range, makes it hard to distinguish the syllables of the vocal and can cause listening fatigue. This range of frequencies is often reduced on background vocal to give them a more "airy" and "transparent" sound.

http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0400/OctaveEQ.htm


Another factor is the harshness range around 2 to 4 KHz. A good mix will be very controlled in this range, again letting you turn up the volume without sounding too piercing. I listen to a lot of movie and concert DVDs, and the ones that sound best to me are never harsh in that range.

The Art of EQ (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=16&ved=0CDQQFjAFOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ethanwiner.com%2Fequalizers.h tml&ei=ROpWTYyLHoOdlge5hYHqBw&usg=AFQjCNHgTY2en-lRoIg68mZx_RsLa7HAJg&sig2=exAmSck6W-wEH20UvDdyag)

And a little off topic but was a bit of nostalgia for me:
http://www.bobhodas.com/tissue.html

When I was quite young I studied audio recording in college and very briefly spent time working in recording studios. The Yamaha NS-10M loudspeaker and the "tissue fix" was a long running joke in the industry at the time.

Maybe all I need to do is place a tissue over my Nrt tweeters!:eek::eek::eek:

DaveF would most likely not be amused!

-CB

[curtis]

CB...can you answer this for me?


So you are having the issue at this listening level, if the overall listening level is lowered by 4dB, does this piercing/harshness go away?

[ctbarker32]

CB...can you answer this for me?
Lowering the volume per se does not alter the perception of uneven emphasis on the frequency region I am concerned about (i.e. 3k-4k). Of course, if I lower the volume to such a low state then Fletcher Munson comes into effect. That is to say the ear is less sensitive to Lows and Highs at a low volume. Maybe I misunderstand what you are asking?

As I have tried to describe over and over using different examples, it is my conclusion that the upper mid-range of the current Nrt is exaggerated and does not sound like any other speaker I have either owned or have heard - high-end or otherwise. I have been an audiophile for close to forty years and while some may simply dismiss my comments as purely uniformed opinions, I am now pretty close to 100% I am correct in my assessment and that I will be proven correct one day. I know this may be distressing to some but I am only really interested in seeing a great speaker in the stock Sierra-1 remain competitive with the Nrt upgrade.

DaveF has been very magnanimous in taking my crossover back for modification and I hope he will take the time to test and listen to his mods compared to the current Nrt crossover. I understand he is very measurement focused and I commend him for his adherence to science but as we all know the proof is in the how things sound in the end. I do not believe that anyone is well served by a perfectly measured product that sounds wrong.

-CB

[curtis]

Lowering the volume per se does not alter the perception of uneven emphasis on the frequency region I am concerned about (i.e. 3k-4k). Of course, if I lower the volume to such a low state then Fletcher Munson comes into effect. That is to say the ear is less sensitive to Lows and Highs at a low volume. Maybe I misunderstand what you are asking?

As I have tried to describe over and over using different examples, it is my conclusion that the upper mid-range of the current Nrt is exaggerated and does not sound like any other speaker I have either owned or have heard - high-end or otherwise. I have been an audiophile for close to forty years and while some may simply dismiss my comments as purely uniformed opinions, I am now pretty close to 100% I am correct in my assessment and that I will be proven correct one day. I know this may be distressing to some but I am only really interested in seeing a great speaker in the stock Sierra-1 remain competitive with the Nrt upgrade.

DaveF has been very magnanimous in taking my crossover back for modification and I hope he will take the time to test and listen to his mods compared to the current Nrt crossover. I understand he is very measurement focused and I commend him for his adherence to science but as we all know the proof is in the how things sound in the end. I do not believe that anyone is well served by a perfectly measured product that sounds wrong.

Forgive me, but I am still not understanding the situation.

I believe you have said before that other recordings, or the bulk of what you listen to is not a problem, but there is a percentage of recordings that you do have a problem with.

You have said that there is a piercing quality you hear in the 3k-4k range due 2-3dB boost compared to the standard Sierra. Is it still piercing when you bring the overall level down? Instead of piercing, you are now saying there is an uneven emphasis.

Wouldn't this emphasis be apparent in the bulk of what you listen to?

I think taking the stance of "I am right and you are wrong" is not a good way to convey the situation. For myself, I am trying to get an overall understanding on how you feel about the speaker, and to understand what is going on during these "piercing" instances.

I spent a good amount of time listening to the NrT version of the Sierras, as well as the Tower (which uses the same tweeter) at Ascend, with material I know well, and other material...a lot of which was guitar work. Nothing I heard came across as wrong, piercing, or uncomfortable.

There is another Ascend owner local to me that has the NrT upgrade, and if I can get a sample of the music you are having problems with, I think an A/B session will be interesting.

[davef]

Everything Ct says is circa right.

The upgrade, was not up.

Forget the room or room correction or the More Revealing or I was sent a bad speaker set. Because none of this applies. I have dedicated treated rooms (in two homes, one in each), expensive speakers, equipment, tube equipment, amps ect...

Everyone can hear it, including my cleaning lady with her tin, (vacuum cleaners too loud), ears.

It brought a transistor beach radio sound to the top end. Period!


It turned the Sierra-1 into something I would never buy, if I had heard them first.

The originals are near perfect for the money. Which I also have.

I would not want to encourage Dave to go in this direction, as I am sure he has a lot of yes people around him, as most of us do.

King,

I have offered to convert your Sierra-1 NrT back to stock. You refused. Frankly, I need the parts as we are now out of NrT crossovers. If the speakers are simply that unlistenable to you -- PLEASE send them back, I do not understand why you want to keep them. I have customers waiting. I am not insulted by any means and I have said from day one that this upgrade will not be for everyone.

You state that the Sierra-1 is near perfect for the money, and I am most pleased that you enjoy them. The Sierra-1 NrT is something different and was specifically targeted to those who felt the Sierra-1 were a bit too forgiving / laid back and wanted a speaker with a bit more detail and agression. If you loved the Sierra-1 as is, there was no reason to upgrade.

Your situation is different than Chris's. He has issues with the 3-4K range (or so he assumes it is in this range) and he enjoys the top end of the Sierra-1 NrT, you do not like the top end of the speaker -- and that is OK too. I have offered to evaluate your pair, but you refuse. Your description of the top end is so far off from everyone else who has Sierra-1 NrT that I wish you would not dismiss the fact that something could be wrong. To get the extension and efficiency that these tweeters offer, the gap size is very small and it is most certainly possible that a voice coil offset has developed which would translate to what you are hearing.

These are things I MUST evaluate as this is a brand new production tweeter and while I am 100% confident in SEAS's manufacturing abilities, one can never be too sure.

If you truly want to help, rather than simply state the speaker does not sound right to you, please send them back for evaluation. In one of your messages to me, you stated that Sax sounds great. Chris has stated that he likes the highs. Electric guitar and Saxophone share a similar frequency range. I do not believe that you and Chris are describing the same thing here...

[davef]

I have been an audiophile for close to forty years and while some may simply dismiss my comments as purely uniformed opinions, I am now pretty close to 100% I am correct in my assessment and that I will be proven correct one day. I know this may be distressing to some but I am only really interested in seeing a great speaker in the stock Sierra-1 remain competitive with the Nrt upgrade.

Chris, seriously, it is enough. Nobody is dismissing your opinion, just as you should not be dismissing other people's opinions (and you are trying to.) You hear what you hear just as others hear what they hear...

Your crossover modification will be a fun and interesting experiment for the both of us.

[King]

[QUOTE=davef;36479]King,

I have offered to convert your Sierra-1 NrT back to stock. You refused. Frankly, I need the parts as we are now out of NrT crossovers. If the speakers are simply that unlistenable to you -- PLEASE send them back, I do not understand why you want to keep them.

1 At first I thought maybe it was just me and my first 20 friends.
2 Then I remembered what a PIA it was to box/ship and pay $60 again to ship.
3 I had hoped to get use to it (sound) over time. Some music is tolerable the sax on one sacd was great.
4 I wanted a different sound as I already own The original Sierra-1's
5 I live on the water and a dolphin beached itself during a rendition of Supertramps "Breakfast in America", on the radio.

I am saying I personally think this is the wrong road to go down.
I am a good customer speaking up. That's all. Period!
You can help me by making another speaker that I will love to replace these with in the future. Or send a buyer for the final shipping good bye.

[Mike^S]

Everything Ct says is circa right.

The upgrade, was not up.

Forget the room or room correction or the More Revealing or I was sent a bad speaker set. Because none of this applies. I have dedicated treated rooms (in two homes, one in each), expensive speakers, equipment, tube equipment, amps ect...

Everyone can hear it, including my cleaning lady with her tin, (vacuum cleaners too loud), ears.

It brought a transistor beach radio sound to the top end. Period!


It turned the Sierra-1 into something I would never buy, if I had heard them first.

The originals are near perfect for the money. Which I also have.

I would not want to encourage Dave to go in this direction, as I am sure he has a lot of yes people around him, as most of us do.

Exactly how do you know there isn't something wrong with the speaker? If it clearly sounds worse than the originals, does that mean all the people who like the NRT upgrade have worse hearing than your cleaning lady?

I had a pair of the original Sierras for a long time and was quite happy with them. But over time I found them lackng just a bit in upper range clarity and detail in comparison to some other speakers I heard.

I didn't know Dave had something in the works so I ended up with a different speaker that does provide that extra clarity in the treble, although less bass extension.

If you look at the frequency response for the original Sierra you can see a dip around 3 khz and a roll off after around 15 khz. So even though the originals were great speakers, they were not perfect.

[merrymaid520]

Quite the debate here:)

I commend all of you for being honest with your impressions of both the stock Sierra-1 and the Nrt version. While I enjoy my Nrt center channel very much, it may not be for everyone as concluded from the posts above. I think on a positive note, the glass is half full here. You both enjoy the stock sierra very much(which is awesome) and the Nrt may simply not be for you. The best news of all, especially in the audio world, you both like a less expensive product over a more expensive one:p

Fortunately you both have a choice here and dont try and convince us, go back to the stock sierra and enjoy all the great music!


Take care guys,

Brandon

[Mag_Neato]

Quite the debate here:)

I commend all of you for being honest with your impressions of both the stock Sierra-1 and the Nrt version. While I enjoy my Nrt center channel very much, it may not be for everyone as concluded from the posts above. I think on a positive note, the glass is half full here. You both enjoy the stock sierra very much(which is awesome) and the Nrt may simply not be for you. The best news of all, especially in the audio world, you both like a less expensive product over a more expensive one:p

Fortunately you both have a choice here and dont try and convince us, go back to the stock sierra and enjoy all the great music!


Take care guys,

Brandon

+1

I have been an audiophile for 26 years, and have owned and heard some very nice speakers. There are many different "flavors", mainly because each of us hears differently. If the original Sierra-1 does everything right for you, then no sense in upgrading. I felt the original did most things right, but I too felt the highs could be improved. The NrT has given me what I was looking for.

I guess the lesson learned here is to audition both of these before buying one or the other if possible. Perhaps a home trial could be setup by Ascend that would include a Sierra-1 AND a Sierra-NrT speaker so the customer could do a side by side in their home. Whichever speaker they preffered they keep, send the other speaker back, Ascend then ships the other matching speaker to the customer and the final costs adjusted. Just an idea that may help avoid this issue in the future.

[RayGarrison]

I've been quiet these past many weeks because Christmas rearranging of living room furniture meant moving music system out of the way of the tree. (Sigh). Anyway,

First, I wanted to commend Dave on his position. I have *NEVER* met or heard of a guy who runs a company being so open to criticism or negative customer feedback, whether it's building cars or computers or houses or speakers or whatever. My hat's off to Dave for his focus on building the best speakers he can to make the most customers happy, and his enthusiastic embracing of the chance to learn something about his customers and the products he builds for them.

Second, my Sierra's continue to amaze me, and whether installing the new tweeters and crossover would make them sound better, worse or simply different falls into the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" category, or possibly more accurately one of Murphy's laws: "if you mess with a thing long enough, you'll break it." At least, for me. I love what I'm hearing, and I don't want to mess with it. Yet. Right now (tree is out, speakers are back) I'm still experimenting with minor changes in location / positioning, and finding the music I'm getting responds enthusiastically to minor nudges this way and that. Surprising how moving one or the other speaker a half inch this way or that can make something sound so different. I do wish I didn't have cables (Blue Jeans Belden 5000 with ultrasonically welded banana plugs, in my case) with plugs that stuck out so far - between the cable connectors and the size of the binding posts on the speakers, I can't get them as close to the wall as I'd like, based on what I hear as I move them to ever closer proximity. My next "upgrade" is going to be to cables that let me move the speakers closer to the wall.

Anyway. One other point - Mag_Neato said:


+1

... Perhaps a home trial could be setup by Ascend that would include a Sierra-1 AND a Sierra-NrT speaker so the customer could do a side by side in their home. Whichever speaker they preffered they keep, send the other speaker back, Ascend then ships the other matching speaker to the customer and the final costs adjusted. Just an idea that may help avoid this issue in the future.

uh, sounds good, guy, but Dave indicated they're having trouble filling the orders they've got. Don't see how Ascend could possibly make such a home trial possible at the present time. Plus, think about the logistics and cost of that. Unless you want to see the price of the speakers increase to cover that kind of overhead, can't see how Dave could make that happen. Just my two cents.

Back to music...

[davef]

Perhaps a home trial could be setup by Ascend that would include a Sierra-1 AND a Sierra-NrT speaker so the customer could do a side by side in their home. Whichever speaker they preffered they keep, send the other speaker back, Ascend then ships the other matching speaker to the customer and the final costs adjusted. Just an idea that may help avoid this issue in the future.

This could be a good option for many people. We have had many customers purchase a pair of 340 SE and a pair of Sierra-1 to audition at the same time and then return the pair that they least preferred. Returns such as these are an expense that is often hard to absorb, even more so with the NrT as the parts are ridiculously expensive these days (thanks to the dramatic price increase in neodymium), but I am most certainly willing to do it. In most cases, it isn't necessary though as we are usually able to determine what type of sound the customer is looking for, based on what he/she is already used to.

I feel I must stress this, the Sierra-1 NrT is NOT replacing the Sierra-1. It is an upgrade option for the Sierra-1 and will remain so. We have designed the NrT kit to be an easy install option for the majority of our customers and it is a simple task when upgrading one's speakers to compare the sound from one speaker to the other.

To this date, we have not received a single "kit" purchase returned to us with a customer stating that they prefer the originals -- not one. And I think it a fair assumption that most of these customers are comparing one to another (Sierra-1 to Sierra-1 NrT). Of the 4 customers who are not satisfied with the Sierra-1 NrT, one returned the speakers simply because they were just too small for the room (did not own Sierra-1). Another has room issues but loves the detail of the speakers (he has thus found a pair of speakers that better integrates in his room).

Chris and King prefer the Sierra-1 as is, and I am humbled by this because the Sierra-1 is a FANTASTIC loudspeaker as is. I am actually quite pleased by their preference. To be perfectly honest, the percentage that prefers the NrT to the stock version is much higher than I originally anticipated. My initial guess was around 70% that would prefer the NrT and we are much higher than this. The fact that Chris and King prefer the standard Sierra-1 is a firm testament to just how good the Sierra-1 is, whether they want to believe it or not, it makes me smile :)...

What does bother me is when one person tries to convince another person that what they hear is more correct than what someone else hears. This is not AVS forum ;) I encourage everyone to share their opinions with me, in private or openly. I have been designing speakers for more than a quarter of a century now (oh my :)) and one thing I have learned is that no matter how technically correct or incorrect a speaker might be, each will have its fans. Even if technical perfection in a loudspeaker was achieved, some will still chose a different loudspeaker.

The Sierra-1 NrT is not some thrown together upgrade with off-the-shelf parts. The tweeter itself took over a year to develop by SEAS's most qualified engineer, based on specific parameters and ideas that were set forth by me. It was then fully evaluated by both me and their complete team of engineers. It offers remarkable HF extension for a 29mm soft dome (the best extension I have personally ever measured in a soft dome) while also offering exceptional transient accuracy due to the highly focused and powerful magnetic field generated by the neodymium ring magnet. This transient accuracy might cause problems for some listeners in the upper midrange registers, which are the most difficult for tweeters to reproduce because they do require some excursion. Many tweeters will simply compress and fail to deliver the transient required of them, which will be heard as a softer sound. SEAS actually considers our NrT to be a long-throw tweeter.

Why do some CD's sound piercing to Chris in the upper mids and others do not? I can not offer a definitive answer just yet. One possibility is that recording engineers will often boost a specific range of frequencies to bring a specific instrument to the forefront. Recording engineers also use speakers of various qualities and also base their mix on what they hear. On Danny Gatton's Elmira St., the focus of the CD is Gatton's stunning guitar work and I would not be at all surprised if the mastering engineer boosted the upper mids to highlight the guitar track. While I don't find it to be piercing to my ears, I do find the CD to be a bit fatiguing to listen to and the guitar is definitely forward sounding (as I think it should). I find it to sound this way on all of our speakers and even other highly regarded speakers. Not piercing to my ear, but definitely a bit uneasy to listen at moderately loud listening levels and I can certainly understand it sounding piercing to some listeners. I played guitar for many years and have sat front row at probably too many concerts, certain guitar notes can and should sound piercing.

All feedback, both positive and negative is valuable to me. Negative criticism is even more valuable and it is because of feedback that the Sierra-1 NrT was created. Sierra-1 or Sierra-1 NrT - different flavors for different people and there is certainly no right or wrong here. I would LOVE to offer every single one of our customers the most perfect sounding speaker to match their specific taste. Believe me, I truly wish I could but that is impossible of course. Instead, we offer a line of loudspeakers all based on well defined principles but with various flavors…

[King]

Pull all my troll like posts.
You give a 30 day looksy/listen period.

What is more fair than that?
Which is the true bottom line. The rest is conversation!

[GirgleMirt]

Hoping I'm not reviving a dead issue... But for some reason it seemed like it was not asked... Pretty sure it must have been covered in pms, but could be a room or placement issue?

A few months ago some measurements were posted, had to browse like 25 pages to find this lol http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showpost.php?p=35500&postcount=239 is there any recommendations vs the regular Sierra for positioning? Minimum distance from side walls for example... I didn't remember this but I also did pick up a bit of high end treble boost when the mic was a few feet away, but it quite settled at the listening position... I do have large absorbing panels on both sides so maybe that helps, could the NrT be more prone to reflections/live room than the Sierra?

Is there any recommendation for toe in vs toe out? As the stands are sand filled and weigh a ton, I've not experimented with placement yet, just placed them on the same spot with the same toe in as the original Sierras. I'm guessing the NrT shares the off axis characteristics of the Sierra-1, still, could/would the NrTs benefit from different placement vs Sierra1?

Maybe this should be another thread... hmmm...

[1965]

Hey Guys and Gals!?,
Not a sierra owner yet but based on questions asked of Dave and his answers, it is probably going to be the nrt. He says it is closer in sound to the cbm-170 which I bought many moons ago when Soundstage reviewed them and then bought the special edition when they were introduced.
Just a couple thoughts from my past experience. 18 years ago when my wife and I got married, we were on a "TIGHT" budget. I couldn't afford to buy the speakers I wanted retail so after some research (at the library using their computer to surf the brand new WWW) I discovered David Weems and Vance Dickason. Bought both their books and started making sawdust. After building a few I thought I found a winner.
The next week my wife rearranges the furniture as she did every 2 or 3 months(God bless her) and all of a sudden I am hearing something extremely irritating in the mid to uppers. It was a weird first reflection of some sort because after beating my brains out for a couple days it was gone!!! What happened? I put a coat hook up on the inside of our entrance door! Irritating sound gone. Strange thing acoustics. I always look there first after that experience.
Years down the road enter the cbm-170. I bought these without hesitation after seeing the frequency response plot. No dreaded midbass hump that a lot of reviewers just raved about in reviews of other speakers. I want truth in my music even if it hurts some of my albums and cd's feelings.
Yes I did sometimes have to tweak the "dreaded" bass and treble but it made some pieces listenable and the cbms made the well recorded ones shine all the more.
So, just my two pennies. The Sierras will be replacing a pair of cbm-170se's in the living room. The wife wanted something to match our cherry cabinet and the cbm don't quite do that.
Dave, keep the faith brother and thanks for the awesome speakers.
Louis Sipes
Nicholasville, Ky

[cynan]

A bit more listening on the new NrTs, and I've got to say, I'm really liking what I'm hearing, more and more with each session.

Is a lot of this opinion my brain acclimatizing to the new sound and forgetting what the original Sierras sound like? Probably.
Is some of it cognitive dissonance? Not unlikely...

The increase in detail and airiness in the upper mid and high range is just something that I really appreciate. Maybe it's because I don't generally listen at loud levels so there just isn't enough sound pressure to drive what might be piercing notes home.

What I do know is I like it. And that's really all that matters.

That said, I'm sure there's some material out there that I'd prefer the original Sierras with. But I'm pretty sure that proportion makes up a very small minority of what I actually listen to.

Regarding first reflection points. I remember reading about how having highly reflective surfaces at reflection points can cause non-systematic accentuation of high frequencies as your ear is being bombarded by the high frequency soundwaves from all angles, instead of mostly from angles originating from the point source. It makes sense to me that this might over-emphasize high frequencies, but particularly those that your ear finds problematic.

What type of wall surface do you have a few feet in front of the Sierra NrTs? I've heard you can combat this by sliding a mirror along the wall toward the speaker at about tweeter height until you can see the face of the speaker in the mirror. At about this location, the idea is to place some sort of absorptive material between the off-axis path of the speaker and the highly reflective surface (most likely the surface of the wall, or perhaps windows, etc).

Does anyone who knows more about room treatment think this is worth a shot for those who think their NrTs could use a little taming in the higher registers?

[GaryB]

Sorry to revive an old thread...

In light of the renewed discussion regarding a perceived upper-midrange "bite" or emphasis (for some listeners) for the Ascend towers at the recent Wisconsin GTG, I'm curious about the outcome of the crossover modifications to ctbarker32's NrT Sierra-1s. Does anyone have any follow-up to report?

[davef]

Sorry to revive an old thread...

In light of the renewed discussion regarding a perceived upper-midrange "bite" or emphasis (for some listeners) for the Ascend towers at the recent Wisconsin GTG, I'm curious about the outcome of the crossover modifications to ctbarker32's NrT Sierra-1s. Does anyone have any follow-up to report?

Hi Gary,

The Sierra-1 NrT and towers are completely different with regard to how the mids are handled. The towers have a considerably higher crossover point...

That said, Chris was ecstatic with the modifications we made for him :)