What surround speakers to match with Sierras LRC?

[hardimen123]

Hello,

I am new here and I just auditioned the refurb Sierra's (2 front, 1 center) and I am loving the sound it produces. I also have a Hsu VTF-2 MK3 sub which completes my stereo system for music.

Now I am researching surround speakers. I can get the HTM-200 pair - 2 sets to complete my 7.1 surround but I am also reading about bipole surround speakers and I am considering Emotiva ERD-1 and Axiom QS8 as well.

From my research, I think I prefer the bipole speakers because from my understanding these type of speakers are highly suited for movies which I will be using these speakers for 90% of the time. I usually just do stereo when listening to music cds.

The emotiva ERD-1 is actually my pick for surrounds but at 4 ohms I don't know what kind of problems that would cause. My receiver is Pioneer VSX-1120 which only goes down to 6 ohms and the Sierras are 8 ohms.

Can you guys give me your input on what surround speakers will be best for me (usage: 90% movies)? I know this is the ascend forum so I am expecting most of you will probably vote for the ascend bookshelf but I would like your honest opinion on the merits of bipole speakers for watching movies as opposed to the matching bookshelf speakers like HCM-200.

Thank you.

Chris

[cynan]

That Pioneer looks like a nice AVR. With more anemic amps, I suppose that mixing 4 and 8 ohm loads (speakers) could pose somewhat of an issue. But, for surround channels, I would think that the ERD-1s will not be problematic. This is particularly the case with modern AVRs where levels of all channels are easily/automatically adjusted anyway. And don't worry too much about overheating your AVR with 4 ohm surrounds. Surround channels usually only draw a few watts unless you are really cranking it (and even then).

My vote would either be for the HTM-200s if greatest concern was timbre matching, or the ERD-1s if you wanted the best surround effects with home theater. I think the ERDs are just better value than the axioms (even though I am Canadian and would like to support a Canadian company). I would also think about getting the ERD-1s for the side-surrounds and the HTM-200s for rear-surrounds as, as far as I am aware, the surround channels that benefit most from dipole speakers are the side-surrounds, and not so much the rear. But this could be changing...

[hardimen123]

Thanks cynan. One of my concerns is timbre matching like you stated so I was thinking perhaps the CBM-170 SE for sides and HTM-200 for the back BUT on the other hand, I usually only use the 2 front speakers when listening to music so I would be using the surround speakers mainly for movies so getting the bipole/dipole speakers would be ideal. I only wish that Ascend had these speakers too. I think your suggestion of the ERD-1 for sides and HTM-200 for the back surround is a good idea too. I'll have to contact pioneer regarding the 4-ohm handling issue as I don't see anywhere in the manual that the receiver automatically adjusts channel levels.

I just read this guide to surround speakers and now I am even more confused. :)

http://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/66471-guide-bipolar-dipolar-direct-radiating-monopole-surround-speakers.html

[curtis]

What is the reason you want bipole/dipole speakers?

This technology is a by-product of the days that surround channels were not discrete. Now, they are.

When a movie is mixed, it is done by using direct radiating speakers all the way around. If the engineer wants a diffused sound, he can manipulate the information in the direct radiating speakers to achieve it. The converse is not true....meaning that if the speaker starts with diffused sound, the engineer could not make it direct.

Now, there are situations where dipole/bipole makes sense, and that is usually because placement in the room is not ideal....or close to it.

[hardimen123]

What is the reason you want bipole/dipole speakers?

This technology is a by-product of the days that surround channels were not discrete. Now, they are.

When a movie is mixed, it is done by using direct radiating speakers all the way around. If the engineer wants a diffused sound, he can manipulate the information in the direct radiating speakers to achieve it. The converse is not true....meaning that if the speaker starts with diffused sound, the engineer could not make it direct.

Now, there are situations where dipole/bipole makes sense, and that is usually because placement in the room is not ideal....or close to it.

The reason I want dipole speakers is for watching movies.

The way I understood it, dipole speakers were designed to mimic the effects of diffused sound generated by multiple direct radiating speakers at the movie theater. I don't see how a pair of direct radiating speaker on each side of the listening position can create this "diffused" sound like a dipole speaker would.

[curtis]

The reason I want dipole speakers is for watching movies.

The way I understood it, dipole speakers were designed to mimic the effects of diffused sound generated by multiple direct radiating speakers at the movie theater. I don't see how a pair of direct radiating speaker on each side of the listening position can create this "diffused" sound like a dipole speaker would.
You are correct...that is one of the reasons why they were developed, but movies are now remixed when released to disc. Remixed on direct radiating speakers.

In a 5.1, say you want a diffused sound coming from the left side, you have two speakers to use...the front left and left surround. By manipulating the information that is sent to those speakers, you can get a diffused sound.

Then again, it is all a matter of preference, and you really should hear the differences to make the choice.

[davef]

The reason I want dipole speakers is for watching movies.

The way I understood it, dipole speakers were designed to mimic the effects of diffused sound generated by multiple direct radiating speakers at the movie theater. I don't see how a pair of direct radiating speaker on each side of the listening position can create this "diffused" sound like a dipole speaker would.

I would strongly recommend against dipole speakers. Frankly, in my opinion, they don't work well at all for Dolby Digital or DTS, where the rear surround channels are discrete and purposefully designed for precise directionality. For example, if the soundtrack calls for a bee buzzing directly at the side of your head or even for it to travel around your head, this type of directionality can not be achieved with dipoles... Instead, the bee will be diffused and sound like it is coming from everywhere. It is inherently inaccurate reproduction.

That being said, if you must have diffusion, choose bipolar over dipolar.

[DougMac]

One of my concerns is timbre matching like you stated so I was thinking perhaps the CBM-170 SE for sides and HTM-200 for the back BUT on the other hand, I usually only use the 2 front speakers when listening to music so I would be using the surround speakers mainly for movies so getting the bipole/dipole speakers would be ideal.

What you describe for surrounds (170 for sides, 200's for back) is exactly what I have and I couldn't be happier. I'm using 340's for the fronts instead of Sierra's, although I plan to upgrade to Sierra's one day.

I agree with others that dipole/bipole are holdovers from an earlier time. Movies nowadays are full of discrete surround cues that rely on the directionality of direct radiating speakers. They are still capable of creating a diffuse ambience. We just watched the release of "The Sound of Music" on blu ray. The original soundtrack was not designed for surround, but the recording engineers have done a great job of using the surround channels subtlely. Near the beginning, there's a scene with the nuns singing chants in the abbey. Now the chanting envelopes you, the ambience supplied by the surrounds is wonderful and non directional.

There are also enough hard pans in modern surround soundtracks to make timbre matching a serious concern. I think the other speakers you are considering sound different enough to make the change of timbre in a hard pan noticeable and annoying. I don't have that problem with my Ascends and from what I've read Sierra's are firmly part of the family and blend seamlessly with 170's and 200's in a surround setting.

Get the 170's and 200's.

[hardimen123]

Thanks for the responses. You guys have very valid points and I tend to agree but still I am still left wondering because the other side have valid points too. I think the best way for me is to audition both the 170s and the ERD-1 for side surround. Both have 30-day auditions and both are in the same price range.

[curtis]

Thanks for the responses. You guys have very valid points and I tend to agree but still I am still left wondering because the other side have valid points too. I think the best way for me is to audition both the 170s and the ERD-1 for side surround. Both have 30-day auditions and both are in the same price range.
That is the best way to do it!

Remember to try a good variety of movies/music with each setup. Newer material/mixes will tend to have more discrete and direct information in the surrounds.

[scape]

just to throw in my two cents: Ive gone thru 2 pairs of surrounds; both of which I disliked when setup with my ascend products. while surrounds probably do not need to go BOOM, you definitely do not want them to sound boomy, nor tinny: both of which were my problems. If you can spring for the 170's and your room is sized appropriately to position them well, I say that this is a great choice. if you cannot, the htm's would be a great wall mounted surround as they are a sealed box, especially back-surround as this is where the least amount of room likely will be to position a speaker.

[DougMac]

I think the best way for me is to audition both the 170s and the ERD-1 for side surround. Both have 30-day auditions and both are in the same price range.
Be sure to post your findings here. I'd like to know what you think.

[hardimen123]

Ever since I got the Sierra's 3 weeks ago I've been listening to music more than ever before. I now listen to music 80% of the time and the other 20% is for movies and tv. With this in mind, I had a thought of just getting a couple more recert Sierras as back surrounds for a 5.1 system instead of getting four CBM-170 SE (for 7.1 system). I am just so impressed with the Sierra-1 that I don't think I'd wanna go any lower... plus I've got some music dvds in 5.1 DTS that I'd really like to hear.

[curtis]

If you can do Sierras all the way around, that is certainly the best way to go.

[hardimen123]

I just ordered another pair of Sierras... I can't wait :)

Sorry guys but I will no longer be able to audition the dipole speaker. I just don't feel like going thru the hassle.

[DougMac]

I just ordered another pair of Sierras... I can't wait :)

Sorry guys but I will no longer be able to audition the dipole speaker. I just don't feel like going thru the hassle.
Excellent choice!

[natetg57]

I have the same dilemma. I have dipole Paradigm surrounds now and I don't like the difference in the sound of the tweeter. I'm considering the HTM-200's but not sure how to place them. My listening couch is just about against the back wall. Can the HTM-200's be flush mounted to the wall? One of the side walls is closer than the other. 2.5ft. vs 6ft.

[scape]

I have the same dilemma. I have dipole Paradigm surrounds now and I don't like the difference in the sound of the tweeter. I'm considering the HTM-200's but not sure how to place them. My listening couch is just about against the back wall. Can the HTM-200's be flush mounted to the wall? One of the side walls is closer than the other. 2.5ft. vs 6ft.

they are sealed and so could be mounted to the wall from their backside. i wouldnt want to mount them close to a side wall though (like in a corner) unless you angle it away from each wall to prevent reflections. maybe take a quick picture or draw up a sketch of the room? as for the distance of the walls, your AV receiver may have some settings to help level the speakers out to the seating position.
as for typical speaker placement:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/speaker-setup-guide/index.html
http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/

[natetg57]

Here's a sketch of my room. https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B20n0kWgVxGgOWQwZWRmYmQtNmE0Yi00OTcxLTk4Y zktYmYyYjQwYTcxZTJj&hl=en

not sure if this'll work

[scape]

how far is that right front speaker to the sidewall?

do you currently have htm's? they can be mounted there for 5 channel, but you might want to mount them a tad further back.. just behind the ear and at a 110 degree angle instead of a straight 90 degree. you'll also want them to be about 1-2 ft above ear level as well, no more. play with that dolby speaker placement guide. hope this helps! :)

if I were you i might try and center the couch a bit more for that right speaker to be placed slightly farther from the sidewall.

[natetg57]

about 30inches to a narrow cd case along the wall. The back is 12inches from wall. I'm using the foam plugs from Ascend.

That side wall only extends a foot farther into the room than the speaker. I think reverb from speaker would be minimal since it's an open doorway. I would move the tv to the left a bit, but there is a light switch right behind the left side of it! I guess I could move the speakers a little closer to each other. ???
I have 7ft between the mains and 9ft to listening position.

I don't have HTM-200's but am considering getting a pair. I wish they could be mounted flush to the wall like with a keyhole or something. I just think it would look better. Here are a couple more pics.
https://picasaweb.google.com/natescriven/Mar212011#5586677625620688210
https://picasaweb.google.com/natescriven/Mar212011#5586677616345851682
https://picasaweb.google.com/natescriven/Mar212011#5586677604101260354