Sierra questions

[claytont]

Would L/C/R Sierra's be enough to fill a 3000^ft room?

Also, would you consider these to be better for music than HT, or are you very pleased with its performance for HT? The only thing I am hesitant about is the low 86db sensitivity.

[GirgleMirt]

Probably, would also depend on your amplification, how loud you want it, will you use a sub, etc. My room HT is a little bit less than 1/2 of that, no sub, for HT and music, very satisfied. But it all depends what you want/expect... If you want it crazy loud, 340SEs would play louder I believe. But to me that doesn't really matter as I haven't reached the limits of the Sierras.

[ediblestarfish]

I set my Sierra-1 pair up for testing in the HT room of similar size, but found that with just 75Wpc off the Receiver there in stereo mode, not really loud enough. Got some clipping when things were turned up for movie watching. I'm guessing something along the lines of 150W-200W would be necessary.

Felt the detailed capability of the Sierra-1's were not entirely met by the usual mediocre quality HT stuff--TV, movies. Also, the neutral presentation made some stuff sound very flat (sort of obvious, but bears mentioning). Seemed to be overkill for my personal HT; exposed weak links in source and component choice to be sure.

It's a good thing if you look at it in the right way; the Sierra-1's won't hold you back. On the other hand, the rest of your stuff better be up to the task to really make use of them, because mine wasn't.

I didn't buy them for that though. They sit in a near-field configuration in my secondary music listening area.

[claytont]

I set my Sierra-1 pair up for testing in the HT room of similar size, but found that with just 75Wpc off the Receiver there in stereo mode, not really loud enough. Got some clipping when things were turned up for movie watching. I'm guessing something along the lines of 150W-200W would be necessary.

Felt the detailed capability of the Sierra-1's were not entirely met by the usual mediocre quality HT stuff--TV, movies. Also, the neutral presentation made some stuff sound very flat (sort of obvious, but bears mentioning). Seemed to be overkill for my personal HT; exposed weak links in source and component choice to be sure.

It's a good thing if you look at it in the right way; the Sierra-1's won't hold you back. On the other hand, the rest of your stuff better be up to the task to really make use of them, because mine wasn't.

I didn't buy them for that though. They sit in a near-field configuration in my secondary music listening area.

Curious of what you ended up getting?? My only concern with the Sierras is the low sensitivity. Did they feel too laid back??

[steveklein]

I've got a room that is around 5000 cubic feet and I've listened to plenty of music on my Sierras in just 2.0 mode and it sounds outstanding. I don't listen at earsplitting volumes, but it was still pretty loud and the Sierras had no problem filling up the room.

I have an Onkyo TX-SR674 driving them.

[Tushar]

I don't agree with the comment about needing 150-200W to get SPLs. My listening area is about 3000ft^3 in a 5000ft^3 room and I have no problem getting deafeningly loud. Audyssey isn't bumping the speakers up much which was a surprise (maybe just 1dB) and I have 110 or 115 Watts (which I believe is accurately rated). Never seen clipping, never have to turn it up anywhere near all the way even in 2-channel, even set up limits to keep my kids from going above 0dB. I watch alot of movies sometimes in 5.1, sometimes in 2 channel. If the 75 Watts ediblefish talks about are accurately rated, I'm not sure how much juice you need, but I would say 110-115W is more than enough. There's other posts on the forum (maybe sticky?) where Dave F explains the correlation of volume to Wattage and diminishing returns in SPL as the Wattage is increased. You may want to find and read that too.

[ediblestarfish]

I didn't actually get the Sierra-1's for use in the HT, but I set them up there to test against the speakers I had setup there which are some old Monitor Silver 9i's. Seating position is pretty far back in a long rectangular room, about 10-11 feet from the speakers.

It takes a huge amount of power to increase SPL output just a few dB, which is why a bump from 75 to 150 watts would only yield roughly 3-4 dB.

I should note though, that I am not using a crossover to cut off the low end frequencies on the Sierra-1's. I find I can get a smoother bass response by allowing them to play full range--however it does complicate sub integration. If you cut them off at 60-70 Hz, you should gain a fair amount of efficiency.

[claytont]

Thanks for the input. My Denon 790 is around 90wpc and will be crossing over my Sierras at 80hz.

I imagine that with my current AVR, I will not be able to reach reference levels? I currently listen to HT around -10db with my current speakers, so not sure if that is an issue.

My room is roughly 3000^ft, however my actual listening area is roughly half that.

[ediblestarfish]

I imagine that if your seating arrangement is closer than mine, that you set a crossover on your speakers, and have more power than me, it should be completely acceptable. There is always the option of buying a powerful and cheap 2-3 channel amp from companies like Emotiva and hooking it up to your receiver through the pre-out connections.

In my situation, the Sierra-1's didn't play loud enough to be satisfyingly engaging in the HT. There were solutions I could have pursued to get them to work, but I didn't because I didn't buy them for that room. They were however, much better in sound quality, and more relaxed in presentation which was my main reason for getting them.

[claytont]

True...how many additional watts does it take to increase the efficiency of a speaker 1db? I remember seeing something about this but cannot remember where.

[ediblestarfish]

Just googled this one quick. :p

http://www.musiccenters.com/vol.html

[curtis]

Thanks for the input. My Denon 790 is around 90wpc and will be crossing over my Sierras at 80hz.

I imagine that with my current AVR, I will not be able to reach reference levels? I currently listen to HT around -10db with my current speakers, so not sure if that is an issue.

My room is roughly 3000^ft, however my actual listening area is roughly half that.
I think you are making too much of an issue of "reference level" until you truely experience it. Most people do not listen at reference.

Do you have an SPL meter so you can get a measurement on how loud you listen to your current speakers?

[davef]

Hope you all had a nice weekend!

Just a few important comments here...


Would L/C/R Sierra's be enough to fill a 3000^ft room?

I am using Sierra-1 L/C/R in my family room / great room. This room is open to our kitchen and it is approximately 16' wide x 35' long with 10' ceilings. This room is 5600 cubic feet. The HT area of this room is 16 x 22. I am running these off of an Onkyo 606 with NO subwoofer. In this room with this 90 wpc receiver (according to specs), the combination will play as loud and clean as I could ever want and easily fills the space. (Often fills the entire house actually, resulting in the inevitable "TURN THAT DOWN NOW" comments from the wife :o )

Does it reach Dolby Reference Level specs for peak SPL? I honestly do not know, nor do I or should I care -- it plays as loud and dynamic as required by my personal tastes.

It also delivers fantastic low-level detail, an often overlooked important specification that allows me to enjoy HT late in the evening, with volume set low and dynamic range limiting turned on to avoid those overpowering peaks, thus keeping the family happy.

Sometime tomorrow, when the house is empty, I will grab the SPL meter and take a video which will show peak SPL measurements.


Also, would you consider these to be better for music than HT, or are you very pleased with its performance for HT? The only thing I am hesitant about is the low 86db sensitivity.

A loudspeaker such as the Sierra-1, or even any "Pro" speaker, as defined as being used in the professional recording industry for studio mastering (as opposed to sound reinforcement / PA applications) is designed to reproduce the source it receives as accurately as it is able to. That means an extremely neutral, non-colored presentation with excellent detail at high-level and low-level listening levels. A loudspeaker does not know the source material it is being sent -- its job is to reproduce it. Music or HT makes no difference.

That being said, many "HT" speakers are not designed for low-level detail, on-axis linearity / accuracy and are voiced with specific attenuations and accentuations in the response such that the speaker will provide its own interpretation of the source, typically rolling off the highs a bit and adding a bump in the mid-bass response to make the source material sound more dynamic than it is. If someone prefers this scenario, which I would call more HT centric, than the Sierra-1 might be the wrong choice. However, I should mention that a HUGE number of our customers who purchase the Sierra-1 for HT, wind up listening to much more music than they ever anticipated and this transition into higher-end "accurate" loudspeakers becomes a hobby and passion for life. For those of you who know, there is nothing like closing your eyes and being transported into the music.

Just today, what was expected to be a 2 1/2 hour music listening session, unknowingy turned into 5 hours of bliss with the time going by in what seemed like an instant. Could anyone really sit through 5 hours of movies in their HT system? (Besides the kids ;) )


I should note though, that I am not using a crossover to cut off the low end frequencies on the Sierra-1's. I find I can get a smoother bass response by allowing them to play full range--however it does complicate sub integration. If you cut them off at 60-70 Hz, you should gain a fair amount of efficiency.

Yes -- exactly. You ran them full-range with HT (and using the subwoofer), thus you are sending the LFE channel to the Sierra-1. The speakers are not going to like this, especially at loud levels, as the LFE channel is designed to be sent to the subwoofer and has very deep bass with an even greater dynamic range than the tracks that are meant to be sent to the loudspeakers. Your situation is not about sensitivity, efficiency or power, it is about woofer excursion and you were asking a 5 1/4" woofer to move the same amount of air as a large self-powered subwoofer -- which is not possible. Your 9i's have three times the radiating area of the Sierra-1 and will have a much easier time of handling the LFE track.


Curious of what you ended up getting?? My only concern with the Sierras is the low sensitivity. Did they feel too laid back??

A laid back sound and sensitivity rating have no correlation. Sensitivity ratings do not represent sound quality or the characteristics of the way a speaker sounds.



Thanks for the input. My Denon 790 is around 90wpc and will be crossing over my Sierras at 80hz.

I imagine that with my current AVR, I will not be able to reach reference levels? I currently listen to HT around -10db with my current speakers, so not sure if that is an issue.

My room is roughly 3000^ft, however my actual listening area is roughly half that.

First off, Dolby Reference Level is 85dB average listening level at your listening position from each speaker. When you calibrate your receiver and speakers, you are actually setting 85dB spl at the "0" mark on your volume control.

If you listen at -10dB, that translates to 75dB (remember I mentioned what volume level most people listen at :) )

75dB at your listening level at 10 feet back will require less than 1 watt of power from your receiver...

All this talk about Dolby Reference Level lately without full understanding. The spec was never meant to be used for marketing purposes, as it seems to be used lately.

Dolby Reference Level is a reference volume level that is used by studios / mastering engineers designed to aid them in mixing the soundtrack and setting various recording / compression levels. It is also used as a standard to help minimize the trend towards increasing bandwidth by over compression (thus greatly reducing dynamic range). Dolby Reference Level sets 20dB of headroom for peaks (dynamic range). The 85dB average listening level is what industry professionals determined as the sound pressure level in high-quality movie theaters, which are very large and wide-open spaces that are well treated. 85dB average / 105dB peaks in a movie theater is not going to sound nearly as loud as these same levels in a typical home theater, where nearly everything in the room is resonating (including the walls) at these levels.

If for some reason you do actually want to listen at reference level, the Sierra-1 with your receiver will easily play comfortably at an average 85dB at your listening position, and require a bit less than 10 watts.

Should the soundtrack actually require a 20dB peak (here is where that 105dB level comes in and typically results in most consumers immediately dropping the volume level), if your receiver does not have the power reserve on hand, the full 20dB peak will simply not be reached and perhaps the peak will be +17dB. Your receiver will not distort as it runs out of power as nearly all decent AVR's have soft-clipping circuits -- the peak will simply not be fully reproduced and the 3dB difference in volume during that instantaneous peak will not be noticeable.

I should also mention that you do not listen anywhere near 105dB peaks now nor can your current HTiB come close to this level. The Sierra-1 are going to be a significant upgrade and play MUCH louder with far greater dynamic range than the levels you are used to listening at. In fact, the Sierra-1 with your receiver will reach far higher volume levels with even greater dynamic range than your subwoofer will.

If you truly want to reach 105dB peaks in your room, this absolutely must extend to your subwoofer as well as there will be a tremendous imbalance in the sound if your sub can not keep up (it would sound awful with no bass at these peak levels). Your LFM-1 will not come close to 105dB peaks and you are going to need to spend a significant amount of money on upgrading your subwoofer, perhaps requiring 2 or more large 12-15" high-power subwoofers in your room...

Everyone you ask these questions of are going to give you their own opinions, some might have personal agendas but everyone has different levels of experience and tastes. Surprisingly, our Sierra-1 are now our most popular "Home Theater" speaker -- and I use the term "surprisingly" simply due to their price tag. Other than our monthly website fees, we do not spend a dime on marketing the Sierra-1 – there is a reason they are as popular as they are.

Your Sierra's should be arriving soon... I recommend that you stop suffering from buyer's remorse (don't we all :( ), set them up -- turn them up -LOUD- sit back and enjoy. Watch a few movies and then even dim the lights and put on a high quality music CD just to try :p Go ahead and test their volume limits and see which component reaches its volume limits first (sub or speaker)

If after a few days you find that they don't meet your volume requirements, simply return them back to us and from there I would be happy to make some qualified recommendations based on your experience with the Sierra...

I truly hope this eases your concerns a bit...

[claytont]

Yea, maybe a little buyers remorse that I spent too much than I needed to for HT, but that's what a great return policy is for if I am not happy and want to try the 340s. I honestly haven't read as many praising reviews about a speaker as I have for the Sierras, so looking forward to hearing them in a couple of days.

[curtis]

Yea, maybe a little buyers remorse that I spent too much than I needed to for HT, but that's what a great return policy is for if I am not happy and want to try the 340s. I honestly haven't read as many praising reviews about a speaker as I have for the Sierras, so looking forward to hearing them in a couple of days.
Getting out to hear other speakers/systems will help a lot.

I know you have been reading a lot about "reference" level and high sensitivity on AVS, I think you really need to hear what it is all about vs. just reading. High dynamics is not the only criteria when it comes to HT.

Like I mentioned before, understanding what your listening levels are is key if you want to equate it to what you have been reading.

[merrymaid520]

How I wish I was there for that listening session:(:D



Just today, what was expected to be a 2 1/2 hour music listening session, unknowingy turned into 5 hours of bliss with the time going by in what seemed like an instant. Could anyone really sit through 5 hours of movies in their HT system? (Besides the kids ;) )

[curtis]

How I wish I was there for that listening session:(:D
You were...in spirit. :)

[merrymaid520]

You were...in spirit. :)

:p Thanks Curtis, I feel much better now.

[ediblestarfish]

Yes -- exactly. You ran them full-range with HT (and using the subwoofer), thus you are sending the LFE channel to the Sierra-1. The speakers are not going to like this, especially at loud levels, as the LFE channel is designed to be sent to the subwoofer and has very deep bass with an even greater dynamic range than the tracks that are meant to be sent to the loudspeakers. Your situation is not about sensitivity, efficiency or power, it is about woofer excursion and you were asking a 5 1/4" woofer to move the same amount of air as a large self-powered subwoofer -- which is not possible. Your 9i's have three times the radiating area of the Sierra-1 and will have a much easier time of handling the LFE track.

Hmm, if that's the issue, I'll avoid that later on. I'm a peculiar one and tend to listen without a sub in pure 2ch, so I keep things running full range; just sounds cleaner and smoother. It also helps the sub integrate in a way that I prefer. I like bass, but I don't like it when I notice the sub playing--perhaps a carryover from my headphone listening years.

The Sierra-1's started getting a funny coughing sound somewhere with the SPL meter bouncing around the 90dB level about a yard back. Goes away if I dial it back around the mid 80s. That listening level is commonly used at my home for movies and/or supplying sound to the adjacent kitchen and seemed normal to me. I sort of assumed it was my mediocre equipment at fault, and that the amp would give out before the Sierra-1's would.

Usual casual listening is done at 60-70dB, sometimes 80db measured at a yard back--no issues there of course. I really don't like the Monitor 9i's after owning the Sierra-1's--far too bright, forward sounding, fatiguing. I guess you can add me to the 'make a Sierra Tower' petition. :p

[davef]

Yea, maybe a little buyers remorse that I spent too much than I needed to for HT, but that's what a great return policy is for if I am not happy and want to try the 340s. I honestly haven't read as many praising reviews about a speaker as I have for the Sierras, so looking forward to hearing them in a couple of days.

Hi Clayton,

If high volume levels is priority over sound quality, then yes --- I would say you might have spent more than you needed too. In this case, from our product line the 340 SE would be the better choice.

If you want to go with something that will play loud enough to drive everyone out of your house, going with a passive PA speaker wouldn't be a bad choice. Mackie's would be a good choice but there are dozens of choices at various price points.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Mackie-C200-Passive-Speaker--Black--485393-i1512408.gc

Sound quality and serious music listening are important. Based on what you are upgrading from, you haven't truly experienced it yet and you might be in for a pleasant surprise.

[davef]

How I wish I was there for that listening session:(:D

Me too :)


You were...in spirit. :)

Yes -- Agreed. You were definitely with us in spirit. Certainly not too late to hop on a plane and come visit :)

[merrymaid520]

Me too :)



Yes -- Agreed. You were definitely with us in spirit. Certainly not too late to hop on a plane and come visit :)

You guys can't tease me like this........G O T T O R E S I S T T H E U R G E (to fly out to cali). Business write off? That might just work:p:)

Anyway, glad you enjoyed the long listening session and someday I do plan to come out and visit(I believe you now have a dedicated listening room at the shop).

Brandon

[davef]

You guys can't tease me like this........G O T T O R E S I S T T H E U R G E (to fly out to cali). Business write off? That might just work:p:)

Anyway, glad you enjoyed the long listening session and someday I do plan to come out and visit(I believe you now have a dedicated listening room at the shop).

Yes -- well treated, decently large listening room is now open and the setup makes it easy to do level matched A/B tests.

I fell asleep in there the other night while listening to some music :D

[davef]

The Sierra-1's started getting a funny coughing sound somewhere with the SPL meter bouncing around the 90dB level about a yard back. Goes away if I dial it back around the mid 80s. That listening level is commonly used at my home for movies and/or supplying sound to the adjacent kitchen and seemed normal to me. I sort of assumed it was my mediocre equipment at fault, and that the amp would give out before the Sierra-1's would.

Yep -- too much excursion being demanded of the woofer. Strange that you like to run the speakers full range together with the subwoofer. You do realize that you are going get a doubling of the bass at some frequencies and cancelletion of bass at other frequencies due to identical source material being reproduced from different locations in your room.

I do understand that you enjoy this more, but it is a technically incorrect way to run the system and running the LFE into the speakers is what was causing you those issues...

[ediblestarfish]

I took measurements around the room with some test tones on a SPL meter as well as my head, but didn't find any modes and nulls that were too pronounced in the seating area. I also used the sub's crossover instead of relying on the AV receiver, setting it somewhere in the 40-50 range (no specific marking on the dial) to prevent them from conflicting with the speakers as much as I could.

It's the same kind of 2.1 setup I have for my listening area outside the HT, so I wanted to try that 2.1 in the HT temporarily to see if it would work. It did--just ran into some limits at some not quite usual listening volumes.

I tend to cross subs over at a much lower level than the 80Hz people tell me to. For some reason I can locate them quite easily at 80Hz, still sometimes at 70Hz. Drives me really crazy, like having a speck of dust in your glasses you can't seem to not notice.

60Hz works as long as the sub isn't too close, but the Sierra-1's go so much lower it has provided an unusual problem. Sub integration has always been something difficult, so I often play without it when I want a smoother sound.

[Mike^S]

For high volume HT or bass heavy music, you need to cross your speakers over at 80hz, this goes for the Sierras, 340SE, or any modest sized speaker. Even the JTR tiple 8s (three 8 inch woofers) are only rated to 80hz -3dB. If you can tell where the sub is, try multiple subwoofers.

[Tushar]

I think whether you cross-over on Sierra's is a personal choice and where to cross-over. I'm pretty happy with the bass output of Sierra-1 in 2 channel and with my setup it is much cleaner to run them that way. Better low frequency than my last speakers (Advent Legacy II) which have much bigger cones.

You should definately turn LFE off, though. I have an amp that's 2 years old and it let's me send LFE and full range regular sound separately to each channel.

My old reciever and even the one before that would let me turn LFE off. One time I accidentally didn't turn LFE off-- within 2 days my foam came apart on both my big old Advents (I think they had 8 or 10" but didn't go as low as the Ascends). They were due for a recone, but I think the shakeup they got from the LFE is the reason they failed at exactly same time...

[ediblestarfish]

Thanks for taking the time to tell me what I'm doing wrong.

A separate LFE with an alternate 'full range' run seems interesting. I'll have to look for that on our new one.

My current AV receiver is over 6 years old, and is getting replaced next week--not many options for controlling output on it. No HDMI, no component, buggy issues with the other equipment. The whole HT is actually in the middle of being upgraded at the moment, though I'm not the one doing it since it's not 'my' project. :mad:

I bought the Sierra-1's for an alternate listening room, which doesn't usually get loud. Loud was not the point really--was looking to get the subtle nuance and background detail to reveal itself at moderate to low listening levels. Something that was capable of exceeding headphones on those characteristics, which happily, they do. (I'll probably post pics later--least I can do after buying such great speakers for so little.)

Because of that I am highly considering another set for the HT. However, I get the requisite request to turn it up and ran into problems I posted already. Guess I was being a little idiotic when I saw the speakers rated for 200W, and my receiver as 75W. I really wish I did not perceive these things and could be happy with a normal setup. Then again, I suppose anyone driven to go after this hobby is a little nuts. :p

[curtis]

Guess I was being a little idiotic when I saw the speakers rated for 200W, and my receiver as 75W.
That's maximum continuous power. There are people using lower power tube amps with good results.

All that matters is that you get what you want.