Thirsty Sierras

[LyleB]

Just bought Sierras--a lovely little speaker with huge sound. But I've got an issue....

I tested them initally with a Denon 2310ci (105Wx2) coupled with a Panasonic Blue-Ray via HDMI. I did this because I was short on time. First impression? Great sound considering they were only receiving 100w from an AV receiver.

I was expecting better results from my Anthem 225 (an integrated 2 channel pushing 225Wx2) and Marantz 6003 CD player. However, I needed to turn the Anthem's volume knob past the half way point just to approach the Denon's output. Actually, the Denon was giving far better cone excursion.

So I used the Anthem's preouts to feed a Rotel (70Wx2) amp to determine if the Anthem was just impotent. Rotel felt even weaker than Anthem (as it should, being only 70wx2).

I spoke with David from Ascend briefly and he thinks it's simply a low signal issue from my CD player with it's analog outputs (vs. the Blue Ray with it's HDMI), so just to turn the volume higher than usual (on the Anthem) to compensate.

Thus, he thinks the Panasonic Blue Ray was just sending a more powerful signal to the Denon, therefore creating a more sensitive volume knob on the Denon receiver.

But I thought an amp delivered maximum (clean wattage) at half it's volume level; i.e, when a volume knob is turned approx. 180 degrees from its starting point. David said that's bunk and just to turn the volume up higher.

Coming from DefTech and Cerwin Vega speakers though, feeding this much (perceived?) wattage into a 5" woofer feels like killing a fly with a pile driver.

I was just expecting some serious volume at a quarter turn with the Anthem volume, but could this be simply a cd player issue?

Any thoughts?
-Lyle
p.s. This is not a reversed polarity issue and all the connections/wires were triple checked.

[davef]

Lyle,

We discussed this on the phone today... However, I still do not think you understand what gain is, in relation to power.

First off, we need to clarify a few things. 10 watts is 10 watts, 100 watts is 100 watts -- it does not matter if it is being delivered from Anthem or Denon or whatever. A loudspeaker is a linear device. 1 watt in is going to deliver a specific amount of output (~87dB at 1 meter from a Sierra-1). 2 watts is going to deliver 3dB more output, 4 watts will deliver another 3dB and so on until the loudspeaker reaches its thermal and mechanical limits. The loudspeaker will always react the same (unless it is faulty).


I tested them initally with a Denon 2310ci (105Wx2) coupled with a Panasonic Blue-Ray via HDMI. I did this because I was short on time. First impression? Great sound considering they were only receiving 100w from an AV receiver.

and...


I was expecting better results from my Anthem 225 (an integrated 2 channel pushing 225Wx2) and Marantz 6003 CD player. However, I needed to turn the Anthem's volume knob past the half way point just to approach the Denon's output. Actually, the Denon was giving far better cone excursion.


and...


But I thought an amp delivered maximum (clean wattage) at half it's volume level; i.e, when a volume knob is turned approx. 180 degrees from its starting point.

So, evaluating these statements, what could the possibilities be?

Since you had the volume level turned halfway up on your anthem, based on your assumptions, you are delivering 112.5 watts of power to the Sierra-1 (in reality, audio volume controls are logarithmic, not linear)

However, your 100 watt Denon (which I must assume you had the volume up at around halfway since you don't like to turn past this part) would be delivering only 50 watts to the Sierra-1 (based on your volume control assumptions).

A watt is a watt -- so how could an assumed 50 watts from your Denon be considerably louder than your assumed 112 watts from Anthem?...

The answer is, it can not, it is a mechanical impossibility unless we have somehow created a loudspeaker whose efficiency changes based on the brand of amplification (now that would be cool :D)

The ONLY possibility is that your Anthem integrated is not delivering half of its power at half volume control. Point of fact, in your present hookup scenario, it is delivering far less power. 100 watts into a single Sierra-1 will deliver over 105dB at 1 meter. With a pair of speakers, this will now be 108dB at 1 meter back. Assuming you are 2 meters back, you have 102dB, which is EXTREMELY loud and a volume level that will damage your hearing over time.

I must explain how an amplifier works in order to give you a clearer understanding. An amplifier is a fixed gain device. An example in voltage... A 1v voltage source comes in and 28 volts go out. 0.5v comes in, 14 volts go out. (0.5v x 28) Your Anthem amp has 29dB of gain (voltage gain of 28v)

"Volume" is determined by the preamplifier, which is a variable gain device. The overall amount of gain (or reduction) applied is determined by the incoming source signal in combination with the volume control "position" of the preamplifier.

Based on the above scenario, let us assume that your CD player is delivering 2 volts to the Anthem (most CD players deliver about 2 volts). You have your volume control at halfway and the output of your preamplifier will now be 1v (2v multiplied by ½ volume position). 1v into your amplifier will deliver 28v out. 28v into the Sierra-1 (assume 8 ohm load) = only 98 watts (28v squared /8 ohms)

98 watts into the Sierra-1 should be plenty loud, so what is wrong? The problem here is that audio volume controls are not linear – they are logarithmic (also know as an audio taper). 50% volume position is not equivalent to ½ of the pot’s total voltage reduction from maximum; it is roughly equivalent to 1/10th! (although these are never exact)

Taking this into account, in our above scenario with 2 volts coming into the Anthem and with a volume position of 50%, we really only have ~ 6 volts output. 6 volts into the Sierra-1 = ~ 5 watts (at 2 meters back with a pair of speakers, about 88dB SPL, loud -- but certainly not impressive)

Volume control position on your integrated amp has little relation to how much power the amp is producing.

If for some reason you still don’t feel comfortable turning the volume control higher, you can compensate by using a higher gain CD player. Say for example your CD player delivered 4 volts. In the above scenario, at 50% volume position, the output of the Anthem would now be 11.2 volts = ~16 watts into Sierra-1. Notice that your amp is delivering more power at the same volume position? One step further, now we connect a high-gain preamp or other high-gain source to the Anthem. This source can deliver 20 volts. With the volume of the Anthem still at 50%, we now have 56 volts of output which = 392 watts of output. Better turn that volume control way down else risk damaging your amp and speakers (in addition to your hearing)

So you ask, why this then:
I tested them initally with a Denon 2310ci (105Wx2) coupled with a Panasonic Blue-Ray via HDMI. I did this because I was short on time. First impression? Great sound considering they were only receiving 100w from an AV receiver.


This is because you are using a digital output going into a dolby digital receiver. The gain structure for DD receivers is designed so that 0dB on the volume control is roughly equivalent to Dolby Reference levels, which is 1.85v in = 85dB out (105dB peaks). These receivers also use digital volume controls which are divided into dB steps. Comparing volume control positions in relation to output between your DD receiver with a digital source and your Anthem integrated with an analog source is comparing apples to oranges (as I mentioned to you on the phone). It is a meaningless comparison in trying to judge power.


So I used the Anthem's preouts to feed a Rotel (70Wx2) amp to determine if the Anthem was just impotent. Rotel felt even weaker than Anthem (as it should, being only 70wx2).

Precisely, but not for the reasons you think. 70 watts is more than enough power to fully drive Sierra-1. The Rotel amp sounded weaker because Rotel amplifiers have a gain of 27dB (22 volts, which is 6 volts lower than your Anthem). Now with this amp connected as you described, you were only delivering ~ 2.5 watts to the Sierra-1. --> 2 volts from your CD player, divided by 10 for 1/2 volume control position, multiplied by 22 volts for amplifier gain = 4.4 volts out. 4.4 volts into Sierra-1 = ~ 2.5 watts.


Thus, he thinks the Panasonic Blue Ray was just sending a more powerful signal to the Denon, therefore creating a more sensitive volume knob on the Denon receiver.

No, not more powerful -- as I tried to explain, it is a different gain structure altogether, your BD player in combination with your DD receiver.


But I thought an amp delivered maximum (clean wattage) at half it's volume level; i.e, when a volume knob is turned approx. 180 degrees from its starting point. David said that's bunk and just to turn the volume up higher.

Coming from DefTech and Cerwin Vega speakers though, feeding this much (perceived?) wattage into a 5" woofer feels like killing a fly with a pile driver.

But your DefTech's and Vega's were not used with the Anthem and Marantz combination and as I fully documented for you above, you are, in reality, feeding the Sierra-1 with very little power at your volume control position of 180 degrees.


I was just expecting some serious volume at a quarter turn with the Anthem volume, but could this be simply a cd player issue?

If the volume control position of your amp matters that much and you want serious volume from only 1/4 turn with the Anthem / Marantz combination, you are going to need speakers that are rated at about 97dB sensitivity. I am sorry to say this but that is not going to happen in a bookshelf sized speaker.

Honestly, the volume control is simply a tool to help you associate a volume level with a physical device -- its position has no bearing whatsoever as to the power output capabilities of your amp or receiver....

Hope this helps!

[Mike^S]

Whoa! That's a lot of info there! Have to bookmark and read when I have more time. :p

[buddhadas]

Hi Dave.

In my case with McIntosh separates, I have the gain on the amp set to 80 dbs when the volume on the pre-amp is at the halfway point. That way I have some control over the volume fluctuations in different recordings. With a lot of newer recordings recorded so poorly, I like having the ability to lower volume to account for the lousy recording.

I suspect some people (myself included) get caught up with More watts, and more volume, but I am to the point that I don't need to understand, I just enjoy the wonderful sound through the Sierra's!! I rarely care about volume any more. I usually just use my SPL meter to make sure I am not higher than I need to be.

In my case my room has more to do with volume than my amps do. Since I have my room treated with acoustic panels, I have found I need to be careful of volume because I can run it much higher than with a non treated room.

Peace,

Jim

[GirgleMirt]

Lyle,

We discussed this on the phone today... However, I still do not think you understand what gain is, in relation to power.

First off, we need to clarify a few things. 10 watts is 10 watts, 100 watts is 100 watts -- it does not matter if it is being delivered from Anthem or Denon or whatever. A loudspeaker is a linear device. 1 watt in is going to deliver a specific amount of output (~87dB at 1 meter from a Sierra-1). 2 watts is going to deliver 3dB more output, 4 watts will deliver another 3dB and so on until the loudspeaker reaches its thermal and mechanical limits. The loudspeaker will always react the same (unless it is faulty).



and...



and...



So, evaluating these statements, what could the possibilities be?

Since you had the volume level turned halfway up on your anthem, based on your assumptions, you are delivering 112.5 watts of power to the Sierra-1 (in reality, audio volume controls are logarithmic, not linear)

However, your 100 watt Denon (which I must assume you had the volume up at around halfway since you don't like to turn past this part) would be delivering only 50 watts to the Sierra-1 (based on your volume control assumptions).

A watt is a watt -- so how could an assumed 50 watts from your Denon be considerably louder than your assumed 112 watts from Anthem?...

The answer is, it can not, it is a mechanical impossibility unless we have somehow created a loudspeaker whose efficiency changes based on the brand of amplification (now that would be cool :D)

The ONLY possibility is that your Anthem integrated is not delivering half of its power at half volume control. Point of fact, in your present hookup scenario, it is delivering far less power. 100 watts into a single Sierra-1 will deliver over 105dB at 1 meter. With a pair of speakers, this will now be 108dB at 1 meter back. Assuming you are 2 meters back, you have 102dB, which is EXTREMELY loud and a volume level that will damage your hearing over time.

I must explain how an amplifier works in order to give you a clearer understanding. An amplifier is a fixed gain device. An example in voltage... A 1v voltage source comes in and 28 volts go out. 0.5v comes in, 14 volts go out. (0.5v x 28) Your Anthem amp has 29dB of gain (voltage gain of 28v)

"Volume" is determined by the preamplifier, which is a variable gain device. The overall amount of gain (or reduction) applied is determined by the incoming source signal in combination with the volume control "position" of the preamplifier.

Based on the above scenario, let us assume that your CD player is delivering 2 volts to the Anthem (most CD players deliver about 2 volts). You have your volume control at halfway and the output of your preamplifier will now be 1v (2v multiplied by ½ volume position). 1v into your amplifier will deliver 28v out. 28v into the Sierra-1 (assume 8 ohm load) = only 98 watts (28v squared /8 ohms)

98 watts into the Sierra-1 should be plenty loud, so what is wrong? The problem here is that audio volume controls are not linear – they are logarithmic (also know as an audio taper). 50% volume position is not equivalent to ½ of the pot’s total voltage reduction from maximum; it is roughly equivalent to 1/10th! (although these are never exact)

Taking this into account, in our above scenario with 2 volts coming into the Anthem and with a volume position of 50%, we really only have ~ 6 volts output. 6 volts into the Sierra-1 = ~ 5 watts (at 2 meters back with a pair of speakers, about 88dB SPL, loud -- but certainly not impressive)

Volume control position on your integrated amp has little relation to how much power the amp is producing.

If for some reason you still don’t feel comfortable turning the volume control higher, you can compensate by using a higher gain CD player. Say for example your CD player delivered 4 volts. In the above scenario, at 50% volume position, the output of the Anthem would now be 11.2 volts = ~16 watts into Sierra-1. Notice that your amp is delivering more power at the same volume position? One step further, now we connect a high-gain preamp or other high-gain source to the Anthem. This source can deliver 20 volts. With the volume of the Anthem still at 50%, we now have 56 volts of output which = 392 watts of output. Better turn that volume control way down else risk damaging your amp and speakers (in addition to your hearing)

So you ask, why this then:

This is because you are using a digital output going into a dolby digital receiver. The gain structure for DD receivers is designed so that 0dB on the volume control is roughly equivalent to Dolby Reference levels, which is 1.85v in = 85dB out (105dB peaks). These receivers also use digital volume controls which are divided into dB steps. Comparing volume control positions in relation to output between your DD receiver with a digital source and your Anthem integrated with an analog source is comparing apples to oranges (as I mentioned to you on the phone). It is a meaningless comparison in trying to judge power.



Precisely, but not for the reasons you think. 70 watts is more than enough power to fully drive Sierra-1. The Rotel amp sounded weaker because Rotel amplifiers have a gain of 27dB (22 volts, which is 6 volts lower than your Anthem). Now with this amp connected as you described, you were only delivering ~ 2.5 watts to the Sierra-1. --> 2 volts from your CD player, divided by 10 for 1/2 volume control position, multiplied by 22 volts for amplifier gain = 4.4 volts out. 4.4 volts into Sierra-1 = ~ 2.5 watts.



No, not more powerful -- as I tried to explain, it is a different gain structure altogether, your BD player in combination with your DD receiver.



But your DefTech's and Vega's were not used with the Anthem and Marantz combination and as I fully documented for you above, you are, in reality, feeding the Sierra-1 with very little power at your volume control position of 180 degrees.



If the volume control position of your amp matters that much and you want serious volume from only 1/4 turn with the Anthem / Marantz combination, you are going to need speakers that are rated at about 97dB sensitivity. I am sorry to say this but that is not going to happen in a bookshelf sized speaker.

Honestly, the volume control is simply a tool to help you associate a volume level with a physical device -- its position has no bearing whatsoever as to the power output capabilities of your amp or receiver....

Hope this helps!

Dave, go to bed! :p Given the time, I think "the volume control is simply a tool to help you associate a volume level with a physical device -- its position has no bearing whatsoever as to the power output capabilities of your amp or receiver" would have been enough, let's hope you didn't start typing this at 6pm ;)

I don't see a problem here, if it's not loud enough, turn the volume control up, if it's at max and it's still not loud enough, then you have a problem. If it's not, then there's no problem! Volume pot position is irrelevant...

[indulger]

I have employees at work that I explain things to and they stare at you with that blank look. That frustrates the sh*t out of me because I know it is so simple, in my mind at least, that they should understand. However, I don't just send them away, I sit them down and try to explain it in more simple terms and sometimes with illustrations until they get it. Yeh, again it's frustrating, but then when I see that light go on in there eyes, it makes me feel better. I just don't like explaining something to someone and have them walking away either not believing me or wondering what the heck I just said. That's just me.;)

[davef]

Dave, go to bed! :p Given the time, I think "the volume control is simply a tool to help you associate a volume level with a physical device -- its position has no bearing whatsoever as to the power output capabilities of your amp or receiver" would have been enough, let's hope you didn't start typing this at 6pm ;)

Ha -- well, you would be surprised at how often I run into this same scenario. As Ascend grows, our customer base is expanding and our products are finding their way into consumers' homes who have less experience than our typical customer (this is a good thing of course). Informed consumers, those who *know*, those who walk into a Best Buy or similar and know much more than the sales staff, these are the people who own Ascend's and I am so very proud of that.

When it comes to volume control position and power -- this is an issue that is still not fully understood by the general public and something we run into often with customers who have less experience in audio. It is the industry's own fault for providing consumers with certain false understandings and it just doesn't sit well with me.

For example, my first real job in audio was back in 1984. I worked at the largest retail audio chain in the country -- "Crazy Eddie". Some of you might remember the commercials ;) I worked as both a salesman and as a technician in the service center repairing / inspecting audio electronics...

We would get a new amp or recever in and we would test it out in the soundroom. Most of the guys had absolutely no understanding of audio or electronics, they knew the product features etc. They would compare amps / receivers and if one was "louder" at 1/4 volume control position, it was assumed this amp had more power and was "better". If they were comparing systems (amps with speakers), they would set both receivers/amps at the same volume position and, as you know, one combination would be quite a bit louder than another -- and in almost every case, the components that were louder were the ones that sold...

We had some decent gear back then but the better audio gear never moved because "louder was better" and it was thought that volume control position was some type of indicator of power. This was how things worked and it created major problems for us. Manufacturers caught on to this and they would increase the gain on underpowered 35 watt receivers so that 1/4 volume position was louder than 1/2 volume position on 200 watt receivers.

The end result of this were piles of damaged loudspeakers coming in for servicing. Customers would take out their frustration on us because they thought they were sold speakers that could not handle all the power of their receiver. This was when CD players first hit retail stores so with the major increase in dynamic range, came mass "clipping" of all of these high gain, underpowered receivers resulting in thousands of blown tweeters. Customers were right to complain, although it was because of the high gain and lack of power, not "too much" power. They thought that since the volume control was "only" at 1/4 of the way, they can turn it up much higher. These receivers would then clip and the high distortion would take out the tweeters and sometimes even the woofers.

Some audio electronic manufactures still use these same fallacies to sell their products and consumers buy into it because they don't understand. I can not hide my DISGUST at this side of my industry...

And now that I spent the time to fully document volume control position and how it relates to power (or lack thereof), I have something I can send customers to instead of having to write it out in emails a few times each week :) Definitely worth my time and while I never share private emails, I received the following the OP


An extremely well written and informed response David....thank you. FYI, I just turned the volume up on the Anthem and news flash, I've got incredible sound. I really just created the thread to see if any others had experienced the same thing or subcribed to some misguided volume knob theory like I previously had...didn't really expect such a fastidious response from you, but it is appreciated.

I've had friends over who like the speaker as well with the Denon...wait until they hear it with the Anthem. You may have a few more orders on the way.

Thank YOU!!