HTM-200 seem a bit bright. Options?

[NegativeEntropy]

I finally talked the wife into upgrading our little cube speakers to something better. I ordered a pair of HTM-200s because of their small size (the space adjacent to our TV is narrow) and I wanted to try Ascend.

After listening to them for ~ 2weeks (mostly music) we have concluded they seem a bit bright (noticeable to me, annoyingly so to my wife). I confirmed this by adjusting the EQ down 6db at 1kHz and above which tamed it a bit as compared to no EQ or Audyssey. We're using an Onkyo 507. I prefer to use Audyssey and do not want to just run with an EQ or add an outboard EQ post Audyssey. I've tried the few speaker placement options available to no avail.

Looking at the frequency response graph here (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/htm200/htm200meas.html), the HTM-200 do seem to be louder at higher frequencies as compared to some of their big brothers (i.e. there's a noticeable plateau from 900-4kHz).

Are we the only ones that think they're a bit bright?

Has anyone compared them to the CBM-170 which have a flatter graph and would likely still fit our space (and would fit the budget)?

Unfortunately the only thing we have to compare in the same space are the old bo$e cubes (hey, they were free!). Without a meter to balance levels it would not be a fair or useful comparison.

For some context, sound wise, we both like how my Senn HD580 headphones sound. They have a reputation for being flat and revealing/detailed. And yes, budget is a concern or I'd be trying to shoehorn something more the Sierra like into the space ;)

So, I'm looking for opinions/options. Thanks!

[davef]

Hi NE,

I would not call the HTM-200 SE "bright" --- they are actually quite neutral. The bump in the response at 1kHz is only 2dB -- typical in-room response will show +/- 12dB swings due to various room reflections, 2dB is very minor and you will notice that this bump flattens out as you move off-axis. When listening in your room, you hear a combination of direct sound plus reflected sound. That being said, these are what I would consider a true "satellite speaker" -- meaning that they are designed to be used together with a subwoofer.

Are you using a subwoofer? If so, which subwoofer? Are you trying the speakers using the **** subwoofer? (this would not be appropriate as this subwoofer has a very high high-pass filter to compensate for the limited bandwidth of the cubes. In addition, it is important to understand what you are used to listening too (which becomes your frame of reference). Here is a link to the frequency response of your cubes: http://www.intellexual.net/****.html

You will notice that there is a very steep rolloff which begins at about 8kHz while the HTM-200 is exceptionally flat to about 22kHz... That is nearly 1 1/2 octaves of more information that you are hearing now, that you were not accustomed to hearing before and the initial reaction will typically be that the speaker sounds brighter -- however, you are actually hearing what you should be :)

If you are not using a subwoofer (or don't plan on using one), the CBM-170 SE (or especially the Sierra-1) is definitely the better choice as these speakers will not sound as "bright" -- not because they are flatter in response (which they are, but only slightly), but because the speakers extend deeper in range (have more bass). Regardless of how flat the speakers are, the less bass the speakers have - the "brighter" they will sound.

Please let me know if you are using a subwoofer with the HTM-200.

Thanks!!

[NegativeEntropy]

Dave,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

We had some of the same thoughts regarding missing the < 80Hz frequencies and how that might make the HTMs seem more bright than they really are. I had not considered the improved upper range vs the **** -- good point.

Because I strive to buy things only once (i.e. spend a bit more so you do not have to replace item X every 2 years), I'm trying to convince my spouse to get at least a moderately capable sub, such as a low end HSU unit (circa $350-400, such as the STF-2). That and I appreciate good sound (I love my headphones).

To test the "sub hypothesis" I picked up a cheap, powered 10" sub (advertised to 25Hz, but with no db tolerance stated) at a brick and mortar with a good return policy (note that this is not my usual modus operandi), expecting it would not meet my wants due to high distortion, but that it would be good enough for a test. It did help significantly to fill out the sound, and as expected it'll have to be returned due to its poor overall performance and distortion.

So, to actually answer your question, yes, we'll be running a sub if we have to. Given the posted frequency responses of your speakers, I would expect we'd want a sub for all but the Sierras (at least), and they're really not in the budget. We listen to a variety of music, including classical, so the lower octaves are appreciated.

**************** 30 minutes pass *********

OK, we did some more critical listening. We've decided my wife is mostly craving more bass. I think the HTMs are here to stay as the 170s do not go low enough by themselves to remove the need for a sub, no?

I'm afraid the Rythmik is not in the budget. I'm open to suggestions. Our room is large, being the living room in an open concept floor plan (main room about 5k cu ft, opening into a similar amount of adjacent space). At the same time, we do not often listen at huge volume levels. I'm more concerned with quality than quantity for this application.

Do you have any sub suggestions? Any other comments?

Thanks again -- I appreciate very much the customer service. Happy Thanksgiving!

[NegativeEntropy]

An update: I ordered an Outlaw LFM-1C this morning.

[Mr.Lawrence]

I can't really contribute since I use my HTM-200 for HT rather than music. However, I will say that these speakers are very nice. IMO, with a subwoofer these are probably the best "budget HT" speakers I have heard. I'm using them with a Mirage S12 sub. The Mirage S12 is no longer available. I'm not familiar with the Outlaw line, but I understand that Outlaw makes excellent products.

[NegativeEntropy]

Mr. Lawrence.

I agree. As I noted above in one of my ramblings, my "reference" is a set of Sennheiser HD580 headphones. They are quite flat over the entire human range of hearing and I really enjoy listening with them. As the HTM-200s are also quite flat, I have concluded having a capable sub will make them as good as any small set of speakers can be in my room.

The Outlaw is basically an HSU STF-2 with the port also being on the bottom. It was on sale and had "free" shipping for the weekend, so it was about 15% off compared to the HSU. It'll be "small" for my room volume, but as we will not be playing at reference levels, hopefully its output will be adequate. The outlaw warranty also differs slightly from HSU but it's arguable which is better.

[DougMac]

Sounds like you're getting things sorted out. Once you get your sub, I think you'll notice a big improvement over the sound of your previous setup. Let us know what you think.

For the record, I have HTM-200s, 170's and 340's therefore I can give you and others who might stumble on this thread a comparison based on experience. I use them in my HT and they blend really well. I've also listened to all three in a 2 channel configuration. There is not an appreciable difference in the highs, the HTM-200's certainly don't sound bright in comparison. I consider the HTM-200's a bargain, they hold their own with their big brothers.

My HTM-200's were my companions while I transformed the unfinished portion of my basement into our home theater. I cobbled together a small system using a spare CD player, a Behringer mixer, a vintage Dynaco amp and the HTM-200's. I played everything from symphoinic music to 1950's oldies, with some jazz and rock mixed in. The little system sounded great and helped the time fly by. The HTM-200's now serve as my back surrounds.

[NegativeEntropy]

The LFM-1C arrived yesterday. After a few hours of listening in the last day I must say I am pleased. Just as important (more important for future purchases?), my wife is as well.

The LFM-1C has made all the difference, letting the HTMs do their thing for their portion of the frequency spectrum. The system (in 2.1 mode) has done well with all of the music and the little bit of HT we've thrown at it, at a large range of volume levels.

The whole system has plenty of headroom for this space for our listening (including HT), which is relatively large for a sub and speakers this size (main room about 5k cubic ft, but open to another 3-4k cu ft too). It's louder in our seating positions (12' from speakers and sub) at 50 of 77 on the volume dial than I would ever listen to for more than a few minutes at a time, much less when the 4 year old is sleeping.

Thanks all for your help and advice.