Farewell to 340SE's!

[azanon]

Spending a couple of hours of my federal holiday off listening to my 340SE's with the sub turned off. I want a good imprint of how they sound in my mind so I can compare them to the Sierra-1's that should be arriving tomorrow. :)

[azanon]

Done.. and my thoughts are this: I can't possibly see how Sierra-1's are going to be better than these. I swear I think these speakers are insane every time I hear them.

[Mag_Neato]

Congrats Az! I never owned the 340's, but got a chance to hear them once. I did own the 170's non-SE version, and would have to say that the Sierra-1 keeps the Ascend sound, but takes it to another level. I had someone audition the Sierra's at my place. He owns 340's. He said the biggest differences were bass extension(better with the Sierra) and just more detail.

It has been a while since I have been able to listen to my Sierra's due to living space restrictions right now. The Sierra's pack a visceral punch that i don't think the 340 would match. Your ears will be the judge.

I'm waiting for Dave to come out with an "SE" version of the Sierra-1!

[curtis]

Done.. and my thoughts are this: I can't possibly see how Sierra-1's are going to be better than these. I swear I think these speakers are insane every time I hear them.
Going in with that thought....you are already biased. :)

The two speakers certainly sound different...but all in the family.

[DougMac]

I want a good imprint of how they sound in my mind so I can compare them to the Sierra-1's that should be arriving tomorrow. :)
I'm looking forward to your impressions of the Sierras since I also have 340's. I'd like to know how you think the Sierra's differ.

[bluemando]

Spending a couple of hours of my federal holiday off listening to my 340SE's with the sub turned off. I want a good imprint of how they sound in my mind so I can compare them to the Sierra-1's that should be arriving tomorrow. :)


I don't think "imprinting" is the way to go about your comparison. You really need to do A-B comparisons. I've been comparing my KEF Q15's bookshelf speakers to my Premier Acoustic floor-standing model, and also to my MMG's (only two at time though). The way I do isn't ideal but, imo, it's better than relying on memory.

I'm not an audiophile, but music has always been at the top of my "priority list" and as a trained X-piano tuner (New England School of Piano tech) I have a pretty good set of ears, being able to differentiate beat rates of tones, something that requires training in order to hear subtle differences. Even so I admit that I can't tell the difference between decent amps and cd players, as some people claim they can do. My method is to hook-up my Premier speakers to my 40 watt NAD C 315BEE + Denon cd player and compare it to my KEF speakers + 20 watt T-amp + Sony cd player (I've also change the combination i.e. Premier to T-amp + Sony cd player) I adjust volume levels (by ear, and I think I'm pretty good at it!) Then I make a copy of a cd, so that I am auditioning the same piece of music on both systems. I compare the same tracks on each system, or 30 secs to 1-3 minutes of a track (in symphonic works, I also compare longer sections for an overall "context perspective." It's not perfect, but I think it's better than working from memory and I think my conclusions are pretty much on the mark. Peace

[Mr.Lawrence]

For dedicated HT use, I had a slight preference for the 340s. I had the 340s and Sierra-1 (LCR) for roughly 30 days, and I ended up keeping the Sierra-1. My daughter and I listened to them side by side. I even had her listen blind folded as I switched back and forward. It was not an easy choice.

I cannot leave the LCR speakers out when not in use, so I needed a speaker that I could easily store. The size of the 340s presented a problem. The compact size, clean sound and attractive enclosure (black) of the Sierra-1 didn't make me regret returning the 340s.

In terms of sound (for Home Theater), the 340s seemed to be made for that task. The Sierra-1 is excellent for HT, don't get me wrong, but IMO, they do not have the forceful presence that the 340s do. Particularly, if your preference is for the action/sci-fi movies and you like them loud. The Sierra-1, OTOH, has an advantage in reproducing subtle sounds found in music, but not often found in the movies I like.

The solution is to have both. Sierra-1 music. The 340s for HT. :D

[azanon]

I'm not an audiophile, but music has always been at the top of my "priority list" and as a trained X-piano tuner (New England School of Piano tech) I have a pretty good set of ears, being able to differentiate beat rates of tones, something that requires training in order to hear subtle differences. Even so I admit that I can't tell the difference between decent amps and cd players, as some people claim they can do. My method is to hook-up my Premier speakers to my 40 watt NAD C 315BEE + Denon cd player and compare it to my KEF speakers + 20 watt T-amp + Sony cd player (I've also change the combination i.e. Premier to T-amp + Sony cd player) I adjust volume levels (by ear, and I think I'm pretty good at it!) Then I make a copy of a cd, so that I am auditioning the same piece of music on both systems. I compare the same tracks on each system, or 30 secs to 1-3 minutes of a track (in symphonic works, I also compare longer sections for an overall "context perspective." It's not perfect, but I think it's better than working from memory and I think my conclusions are pretty much on the mark. Peace

I agree with you, that going back and forth between speakers within a short time frame, and with the same CD would be a lot more accurate. I'm just hoping the differences are obvious enough so that I can avoid the PITA of switching the wire back-and-forth.

However, I believe you just compared distinguishing CD players and amps, to comparing different speakers! That analogy is a little extreme don't you think? What you're doing is FAR more difficult. Unless one CD player and/or amp is of really poor quality, I probably couldn't tell the difference even if i tried; assuming, of course, both are being played on the same speakers. You say you can and I'll believe you given your admitted expertise. But we're talking about completely different speakers here which are physically and mechanically dissimilar. Using real examples, I'd have no problem at all telling an HTM-200 from a CBM 170 from the 340 blindfolded.

I have a very dubious opinion of high end amp separates or those CD players that cost 1K+ with the advanced circuitry that I don't understand. With CD players, the medium (bitrate of the CD) is probably the limiting factor to begin with. And with amps, if you already have a relatively high end A/V with a good amp, I'd probably be hard pressed to distinguish it from even a 2K dollar amp separate. And if it was hooked up wrong, it'd seem like there's actually a greater possibility for electric noise introduction if you have pre/pro + amp vs. just an A/V.

[azanon]

In terms of sound (for Home Theater), the 340s seemed to be made for that task. The Sierra-1 is excellent for HT, don't get me wrong, but IMO, they do not have the forceful presence that the 340s do. Particularly, if your preference is for the action/sci-fi movies and you like them loud. The Sierra-1, OTOH, has an advantage in reproducing subtle sounds found in music, but not often found in the movies I like.

The solution is to have both. Sierra-1 music. The 340s for HT. :D

Do you use a sub for HT? Most of my "impact" experience in movies has come from my HSU 3.3, even with 340s.

........

I'm really hoping the difference in sound is more than subtle (in a good way). The piano black/shiny is actually going to be a negative overall for me since I don't really care and my wife prefers the speakers to be as unnoticeable as possible. Natural's weren't an option either because natural wood (grass, really) would be even more noticeable where they're going.

[lokimydog]

Please let me know what your impressions are. I too am contemplating if I should upgrade my 340se's to the Sierra's. I mostly use my speakers for HT and listen to music through my IPOD dock. Are the Sierra's that much better for HT use with the sub ON. I run dual ULS-15's so I'm not worried about the bass. For me, the upgrade would be more cosmetic. Piano gloss would look sweet.

Is there a returning customer discount?

[curtis]

Please let me know what your impressions are. I too am contemplating if I should upgrade my 340se's to the Sierra's. I mostly use my speakers for HT and listen to music through my IPOD dock. Are the Sierra's that much better for HT use with the sub ON. I run dual ULS-15's so I'm not worried about the bass. For me, the upgrade would be more cosmetic. Piano gloss would look sweet.

Is there a returning customer discount?
You can just come to my place for a listen if you'd like.

[azanon]

You can just come to my place for a listen if you'd like.

Does he live near you?

....

Sure guys, I'll come back and give my impression. It might be a couple of weeks though just to give me time to compare, and to allocate listening time. I'm hoping I love the way they sound and I will admit, for $900 my expectations are quite high.

The wife called and said they came in today while she was at the house. In other words, no stranger stole them off my front porch. (In theory, always a risk)

There are several (glowing) professional reviews already though. I'll be more in the common man category.

[curtis]

Does he live near you?

I believe he is only 15 minutes or so away from previous posts.

[lokimydog]

Hi Curtis,

Thanks for the offer. From what I have read and heard, I know the Sierra's will sound great. I just want to know if they are that much better if most of my listening is HT? Are they worth the loss I'm going to take when I sell my 340's and spend another 600-700 hundred for a Sierra LCR setup. Maybe Azanon can chime in once he's demoed the Sierra's and properly broke them in.

[curtis]

Hi Curtis,

Thanks for the offer. From what I have read and heard, I know the Sierra's will sound great. I just want to know if they are that much better if most of my listening is HT? Are they worth the loss I'm going to take when I sell my 340's and spend another 600-700 hundred for a Sierra LCR setup. Maybe Azanon can chime in once he's demoed the Sierra's and properly broke them in.
Value judgments are subjective and different for everyone. Always better to judge for yourself.

[azanon]

Hi Curtis,

Thanks for the offer. From what I have read and heard, I know the Sierra's will sound great. I just want to know if they are that much better if most of my listening is HT? Are they worth the loss I'm going to take when I sell my 340's and spend another 600-700 hundred for a Sierra LCR setup. Maybe Azanon can chime in once he's demoed the Sierra's and properly broke them in.

My ability to comment on HT applications will be very limited. The reason I say that is because I didn't get a Sierra-1 Center. Believe me I would have had my current HT setup had space for it.

Only have time for one quick comment so far:

Where's the Michael Jackson Thriller CD to go with the white gloves? Just kidding - those gloves were a nice touch, at least in theory. In practice, I preferred the more sturdy palm on speaker to ensure they weren't dropped. I"ll buff them later :)

A question; could someone explain why my graphs take a nosedive at 200hz, and the ones Dave have posted don't (meaning his hover at 85db+ until 100hz). I'm showing about 81db at 100hz, 79db at 80hz, and 77db at 50hz.

[GirgleMirt]

Sure, it's from the way they're measured, if something is wrong with the speakers, it'll show up >200hz, so the <200hz is useless, so taking port measurements would be a waste of time and resources...

[azanon]

Sure, it's from the way they're measured, if something is wrong with the speakers, it'll show up >200hz, so the <200hz is useless, so taking port measurements would be a waste of time and resources...

I assumed there's an explanation ...... so below 200hz is garbage then. Is there any short explanation why the test cant just be full range anyway?

It says at the bottom "on-axis freq response accurate to 250hz" on both.

[davef]

Hi Az,

See here:

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showpost.php?p=31282&postcount=4

[azanon]

Hi Az,

See here:

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showpost.php?p=31282&postcount=4

Ahh.

You said, "If you notice on the frequency response graphs included with your speakers, it states directly on the graphs that the measurements are only accurate down to approximately 250Hz." On my graph, it doesn't say it like you just did, meaning the word measurements doesn't appear anywhere.

I wonder if he interpreted that the way I did, meaning the speaker you just paid $900 for has an "on-axis freq response accurate to 250hz". In other words, I couldn't tell it was actually a disclaimer and not a summary of the graph I was reading. Looking at the graph, that statement would fit both explanations!

Thanks for clearing that up.

[curtis]

Ahh.

You said, "If you notice on the frequency response graphs included with your speakers, it states directly on the graphs that the measurements are only accurate down to approximately 250Hz." On my graph, it doesn't say it like you just did, meaning the word measurements doesn't appear anywhere.

I wonder if he interpreted that the way I did, meaning the speaker you just paid $900 for has an "on-axis freq response accurate to 250hz". In other words, I couldn't tell it was actually a disclaimer and not a summary of the graph I was reading. Looking at the graph, that statement would fit both explanations!

Thanks for clearing that up.
If someone heard the speakers, they would know that the graph doesn't accurately depict response below 250hz...but I guess that would be assuming the person knew what below 250hz sounded like. :)

[azanon]

If you listen to the speakers, you would know that the graph doesn't accurately depict response below 250hz...but I guess that would be assuming the person knew what below 250hz sounded like. :)

Exactly. I confirmed the graph was merely misleading when I finally heard them. But since you bought the same speakers I did, you know the order of things. First, you open the box, and the graph is neatly packed on the top for you to quickly observe long before you actually hook them up.

I read, and I quote, "Sierra-1 SN#95002126 on-axis frequency response accurate to 250hz". Freaked out, I actually looked up at the graph at that point and saw it diving at 200hz. At this point, my stomach kinda hurt. I got the bad one, I thought!

In any event, I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who experienced the misunderstanding.

I have to credit Dr. HSU and his test disk for educating me on what various low frequencies of sound, sound like.

[curtis]

The good thing is that Dave/Ascend would not ship out a "bad one".

[davef]

I read, and I quote, "Sierra-1 SN#95002126 on-axis frequency response accurate to 250hz". Freaked out, I actually looked up at the graph at that point and saw it diving at 200hz. At this point, my stomach kinda hurt. I got the bad one, I thought!

This is a good point. I should probably re-word this to make more sense. The problem is that I am limited to a small amount of characters.

Any recommendations, Az (or anyone else)?

[davef]

The good thing is that Dave/Ascend would not ship out a "bad one".

Never!!!

[azanon]

This is a good point. I should probably re-word this to make more sense. The problem is that I am limited to a small amount of characters.

Any recommendations, Az (or anyone else)?


This would have worked for me:
Sierra-1 SN#95002126 on-axis frequency response MEASUREMENT accurate ONLY to 250hz

not bold, just those words added

I've been accused of being too literal, I admit. I don't get a lot of jokes because of that. So, I read the current statement literally and thought it was talking about my speaker's limitation and not the graph.

[davef]

This would have worked for me:
Sierra-1 SN#95002126 on-axis frequency response MEASUREMENT accurate ONLY to 250hz

Too many characters. The blurb must not be longer than what is already there (I didn't write the software, honestly :D)

[azanon]

Too many characters. The blurb must not be longer than what is already there (I didn't write the software, honestly :D)

Here's what I'd probably do. I'd just add a small two sentence paragraph to your written insert about the Sierra-1 explaining why the graph was included and what it is meant to show and what it doesn't show (such as performance below 250hz). In my line of work, a graph or drawing would be considered an attachment to a letter anyway so we typically explain or reference any attachments in the letter.

I'd bet almost anything you probably have customers who can't even read a logarithmic graph, let alone would they be able to even misunderstand it like I did. I know my wife would struggle making sense of that graph and she's a licensed therapist. Point being, a novice who's just buying your speakers because they want great sound would understand why that graph is in the package even though they might toss it aside anyway.

[Mr.Lawrence]

Do you use a sub for HT? Most of my "impact" experience in movies has come from my HSU 3.3, even with 340s.

........

I'm really hoping the difference in sound is more than subtle (in a good way). The piano black/shiny is actually going to be a negative overall for me since I don't really care and my wife prefers the speakers to be as unnoticeable as possible. Natural's weren't an option either because natural wood (grass, really) would be even more noticeable where they're going.

Yes I do have a sub. It's a Mirage S12, although, I recently relocated it to our other HT setup equipped with HTM-200s.

Coincidently, I'm about 2 weeks away from ordering a HSU VTF-3 MK3 to go with my Sierra-1s. Christmas gift to me, from me. :D

Regarding the 340s... There are couple of chapters in the movie Sweeny Todd (Johnny Depp, 2007 version) where the subwoofer is not very active. Much of the content comes from the center and LR channels. This movie in particular is one that I used to compare the 340s and the Sierra-1 LCR. The rich orchestral passages and singing voices are so clear that I was able to carefully compare the 340s and Sierra-1. I listened to those chapters so many times that I can actually hear the music in my head as I type this post. :eek:

[azanon]

Yes I do have a sub. It's a Mirage S12, although, I recently relocated it to our other HT setup equipped with HTM-200s.

Coincidently, I'm about 2 weeks away from ordering a HSU VTF-3 MK3 to go with my Sierra-1s. Christmas gift to me, from me. :D

Regarding the 340s... There are couple of chapters in the movie Sweeny Todd (Johnny Depp, 2007 version) where the subwoofer is not very active. Much of the content comes from the center and LR channels. This movie in particular is one that I used to compare the 340s and the Sierra-1 LCR. The rich orchestral passages and singing voices are so clear that I was able to carefully compare the 340s and Sierra-1. I listened to those chapters so many times that I can actually hear the music in my head as I type this post. :eek:

The VTF 3.3 is VERY fun on movies. It fully gets a 10 from me on that. On music though, I can never seem to balance it to the point that I'm totally satisfied. Also, it is slightly more boomy that I had hoped for meaning the damping oscillation seems to be just slightly longer than the former SVS SB12 I used to have. Granted, that could be because the SB12 couldn't even play the frequencies of sound that appear to be lingering a tad too long.

............

BTW, I want to go ahead and withdraw my concern about the piano black finish. My wife and I both agreed it was not overtly modern looking (which would be a bad thing for our decor). In fact, we realized after placing them on the shelf that our Sony TV also happens to have a shiny, "piano black" finish, so nothing appears gaudy at all.

[Mr.Lawrence]

The VTF 3.3 is VERY fun on movies. It fully gets a 10 from me on that. On music though, I can never seem to balance it to the point that I'm totally satisfied. Also, it is slightly more boomy that I had hoped for meaning the damping oscillation seems to be just slightly longer than the former SVS SB12 I used to have. Granted, that could be because the SB12 couldn't even play the frequencies of sound that appear to be lingering a tad too long.

............

BTW, I want to go ahead and withdraw my concern about the piano black finish. My wife and I both agreed it was not overtly modern looking (which would be a bad thing for our decor). In fact, we realized after placing them on the shelf that our Sony TV also happens to have a shiny, "piano black" finish, so nothing appears gaudy at all.

Thanks for the subwoofer input. Selecting a subwoofer has been a challenge to say the least. My decision has been based solely on reputation, the suggestions of others, reviews I have read and appearance. I'm pretty sure I'll go with the HSU, however, the Epik, SVS and Elemental Design subs have me interested. I'm really trying to take my time, and that's not easy for me.

When I purchased my Sierra-1s, Piano Black and Natural were the only choices.

[azanon]

Thanks for the subwoofer input. Selecting a subwoofer has been a challenge to say the least. My decision has been based solely on reputation, the suggestions of others, reviews I have read and appearance. I'm pretty sure I'll go with the HSU, however, the Epik, SVS and Elemental Design subs have me interested. I'm really trying to take my time, and that's not easy for me.

When I purchased my Sierra-1s, Piano Black and Natural were the only choices.

The 3.3, especially when it's on sale, is a tremendous value, IMO. There are subs about $300-500 more or so I would have also loved to try, but in theory, I just didn't see where the extra money was accounted for. I think the music vs. HT has to be a strong element of the equation. Overall, I'm far more HT than I am music. If I were strictly or more than 50% music over HT, I'd probably pick a different sub over the 3.3

[bluemando]

I agree with you, that going back and forth between speakers within a short time frame, and with the same CD would be a lot more accurate. I'm just hoping the differences are obvious enough so that I can avoid the PITA of switching the wire back-and-forth.

However, I believe you just compared distinguishing CD players and amps, to comparing different speakers! That analogy is a little extreme don't you think? What you're doing is FAR more difficult. Unless one CD player and/or amp is of really poor quality, I probably couldn't tell the difference even if i tried; assuming, of course, both are being played on the same speakers. You say you can and I'll believe you given your admitted expertise. But we're talking about completely different speakers here which are physically and mechanically dissimilar. Using real examples, I'd have no problem at all telling an HTM-200 from a CBM 170 from the 340 blindfolded.

? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I think we are in agreement here. I have never been able to distinguish differences between cd players and integrated amps. This "flaw" in my sound perception (and double blind tests seem to indicate that I am not alone!) effectively allows me to focus exclusively on the speakers being compared w/o throwing the amp or cd into the mix for consideration. If I was unclear in my post I apologize.


You say you can and I'll believe you given your admitted expertise. But we're talking about completely different speakers here which are physically and mechanically dissimilar. Using real examples, I'd have no problem at all telling an HTM-200 from a CBM 170 from the 340 blindfolded.

Putting my MMG's aside for the comparison, I'd say my Premier's and KEF's aren't all that mechanically different. Yes, I agree that lower bass capability of the Premier's (35hz) is a dead give-away, the KEF's only go down to 50hz; however, that can be neutralized by selecting music that doesn't have "blatant low-bass information" which obviously would point to the Premier's as the source. Doing that, I can pretty much focus on comparing detail, imaging, midrange and highs as revealed by each pr. of speakers.

> I have a very dubious opinion of high end amp separates or those CD players that cost 1K+ with the advanced circuitry that I don't understand. With CD players, the medium (bitrate of the CD) is probably the limiting factor to begin with. And with amps, if you already have a relatively high end A/V with a good amp, I'd probably be hard pressed to distinguish it from even a 2K dollar amp separate. And if it was hooked up wrong, it'd seem like there's actually a greater possibility for electric noise introduction if you have pre/pro + amp vs. just an A/V.

Yeh... I have to agree w/ you about that. In fact I KNOW I can't tell the difference :o)