The age old question????

[arkiedan]

Since 1981 I've owned and enjoyed a huge pair of AR9 towers so my knowledge of current speaker technology is whoefully lacking.

I'm now looking for my last pair of speakers. I've auditioned Maggie MMGs for nearly a month and sent them back, primarily because of their size and intrusiveness in the room. Going to Maggie 1.6s would, of course, increase that problem (although they sound wonderful.)

Right now I'm auditioning a pair of Aperion 6T towers, along with their 5C center and I like the sound a lot. Their mids and highs are outstanding - very clean and neutral at most any listening level. Bass is great, except for a very few organ pedals (like the opening of Also Spake Zarathustra.) I've nearly decided to keep them but an old question keeps cropping up.

Why go to a tower to get more bass extension and then cut off bass at around 50hz to 80hz when you add a subwoofer? Would it not make more sense to go with monitors, on stand and placed properly, and a subwoofer? Also, adding a center channel speaker that matches the left and right speakers would be highly desireable, I would guess.

I know this subject has been beaten to death but I'd really like your opinions as to positives and negatives of going from towers to monitors (or bookshelf speakers if you prefer.) I'm considering trying the Sierras but would like input before I do anything else. What would I lose going to the Sierra and, if anything, what would I gain.

My media room is roughly 15'X20' and relatively well-damped with wall to wall carpet, draperies and furniture. I drive my speakers with an Onkyo 805 AVR, which has been great, even for the Maggies. They sit on the sides of a Sony 60A3000 RPT, 3' from the front of the long wall so placement is not an issue.

I use the speakers as follows:

Mostly Music (playing classical as I type) - much classical, big band, some jazz , some country, and no new music in any category (Hey! I'm 72! :eek:: )

Movies - always surround sound - here is where I'm sure I'll enjoy a subwoofer. I have Blu Ray, HD DVD and an Oppo 983 for SD DVD and SACD.

General TV - I watch everything, incuding Directv HD, using the sound system, news and all.

Sorry for the long post but I didn't know how else to ask the question.

Thanks in advance

arkiedian

[Quinn]

Do you have time to audition a pair of Sierras with the Aperions? Looking at specs there is very little difference in bottom end extension of the two.

I am in the why buy your bass twice camp.

[DougMac]

Welcome arkiedan! Given your age, is this an "age old question" or an "old age question"? ;)

Looking at your usage and taste in music, I think you'd be well served by Sierras. It sounds like you don't have a subwoofer now. A subwoofer will certainly add immensely to your enjoyment of movies. I think it will add a nice depth to your music also, especially if you listen to organ music and jazz with a nice acoustic bass.

If you plan to go with a subwoofer anyway, I don't think you'd be giving anything up going to Sierras. Reviews have noted they have a surprising amount of bass. Remember that it's not a hard cutover from mains to subwoofer, mains still play under the cutoff point (say, 80 hz) and the sub extends above. Sierras are known to play well with subs in the transition range.

If the choice is between Aperions in a stereo configuration or Sierra's in a L/C/R + sub configuration, there's no question the latter wins hands down both for music and movies.

Keep in mind I haven't heard either Aperions or Sierras. I have 340's/170's/200's (+subwoofer) in my home theater and they sound wonderful!

[curtis]

arkiedan...I agree with Doug and Quinn, but I would also throw the CMT-340SE's into the equation as well, and put them up against the 6T's with a good subwoofer.

[arkiedan]

Thanks Quinn & Doug,

"Given your age, is this an "age old question" or an "old age question"?"

Heh....a little of both, I suspect. You'd be amazed at the constaint indecision that comes with old age.

I've got a couple weeks left to decide on the Aperions. Think I'll order the Sierras and compare them. The thought of going to small, lightweight monitors has great appeal (don't have to walk those big towers around when I move them.)

Thanks again,

arkiedan

[curtis]

The thought of going to small, lightweight monitors has great appeal (don't have to walk those big towers around when I move them.)

If you get some nice stands and fill them with sand, they will be MUCH tougher to move around than the 6T's.

I have my Sierras on sand filled stands for stability. Each stand weighs north of 60 lbs.!

[DougMac]

Thanks Quinn & Doug,

You'd be amazed at the constaint indecision that comes with old age.

The thought of going to small, lightweight monitors has great appeal (don't have to walk those big towers around when I move them.)

arkiedan
I started to respond a lot earlier but couldn't decide whether I should or not. ;)

Once you've found the sweet spot, moving speakers shouldn't be an issue. Anyway, that's what grandchildren are for.

[Hksvr4]

I went from floorstanding Klipsch F2's to 170SE mains and a 340SE for the center. I don't think I missed the "full-range." I also have a quality subwoofer for the low end though. IMO, a quality bookshelf speaker could in fact sound better than floorstanders. The 170 and 340 sounds alot better. The only bad thing is that your going to need to get stands or wall mounts. I have them sitting on shelves on the wall. Floor standers are easier to place.

[Tushar]

Regarding what you gain, I would say few things come to mind:

1. Sierra-1's are incredibly revealing of source material as I'm sure you've read. I haven't heard the other speakers you talk about to make a relative, but I would say the Sierra-1 is a great speaker for the price and if you have a chance to listen to them you should, the level of detail is I think addictive.

2. My view is the world is largely ruled by the bookshelf and the subwoofer and the floorstander is relegated to a niche market (I'm probably 10-15 years younger than you but grew up in the age of the floorstander and started to see the subs appear when I was in college). I think in recent years there is great competition in subwoofers which is evident in the pricing (which is pretty good), some convergence in terms of design approach, and you see other things like wireless signal transmission for placement flexibility showing up as a way to differentiate. This is not to say that the sub is a commodity but to make the statement that the sellers seem motivated to compete in a very tough segment.

3. Subs should also largely go lower in frequency than floorstanders.

With that in mind, I suspect you get better value in terms of satellite+sub.

I would also draw a line between bookshelfs like the Sierra-1 that already go down to 40Hz by themselves and other booshelfs that don't. I think most music sounds good on Sierra-1's though it alone is not for organ music, so for that you will need the sub on.

Regarding benefit of floorstanders, I assume you are talking about a 3-way speaker, the only thing I can see is that two speakers going to 30Hz vs. 1 sub may have advantage in terms of room effects, but of course 2 subs may be another way to go....

[arkiedan]

I thank everyone for the input. I'm going to order a pair of Sierras this morning and audition them against the Aperions while I still have time. If I like the sound I plan to get another Sierra for the center and an Epik Vanquish sub, which gets great reviews and is on sale right now. Subwoofers are a new experience for me so it'll be a kick placing it and setting it up. If I go the Sierra route the surrounds will be Ascend - not sure which.

Curtis, I'd love to try the other Ascends but I'm trying to keep shipping costs under control. These 30-day trials are great when you live out here on the frontier but you can quickly run up shipping costs. For that reason it'll be the Aperions or the Sierra-1s.

(By the way, the Aperions ship both ways "free" although I'm sure they factor a percentage of returns into the price.)

60 pound stands! Wow! I think mine will remain empty. We're old folks here in this household. No kids or pets to knock over speakers or other toys.

Tushar, the Aperion towers are a 2-way ported design and they sound terrific. In fact, of the speakers I've been able to find and audition, I like the 2-ways best. It'll be a new experience for me but I suspect I'll like monitors and a good subwoofer. That form factor just seems to make more sense to me.

Thanks again to all,

arkiedan

[Hksvr4]

I have an Epik Dragon and they make great products. Its plug and play. Real simple.

[curtis]

arkiedan...where are you located? It may be easier (certainly cheaper), if you could find a Sierra owner nearby willing to have you over for a listen, or better yet, bring them to your place.

[arkiedan]

arkiedan...where are you located? It may be easier (certainly cheaper), if you could find a Sierra owner nearby willing to have you over for a listen, or better yet, bring them to your place.

I'm out here on the frontier in Conway, Arkansas, 25 miles NW of Little Rock. I never considered finding someone nearby who could demo the Sierras for me. Still, I've decided to go with the Sierras or just keep the Aperion towers so one more shipping cost won't hurt too bad. I'm now waiting for a return call from Ascend so I can place an order. Nowhere on the site (that I can find) is there any indication that speakers are in stock??? I won't place an order without knowing that.

Thanks, arkiedan

[curtis]

I am pretty sure all flavors are in stock. Either way, unlike other companies, Ascend doesn't charge your card until the speakers are shipped.

It will interesting to read your thoughts on comparing the two different speakers.

[davef]

I'm out here on the frontier in Conway, Arkansas, 25 miles NW of Little Rock. I never considered finding someone nearby who could demo the Sierras for me. Still, I've decided to go with the Sierras or just keep the Aperion towers so one more shipping cost won't hurt too bad. I'm now waiting for a return call from Ascend so I can place an order. Nowhere on the site (that I can find) is there any indication that speakers are in stock??? I won't place an order without knowing that.

Thanks, arkiedan

Hi Arkiedan,

All finishes are in stock and we wil be able to ship your order this afternoon. My customer service associate is in and out of the office today but she will be there for the remainder of the day in about 20 minutes. If you wish, please PM me your phone number and I will have her call you immediately.

Also, please don't hesitate to contact me directly if I can be of any assistance.

Take care!

[arkiedan]

Hi Arkiedan,

All finishes are in stock and we wil be able to ship your order this afternoon. My customer service associate is in and out of the office today but she will be there for the remainder of the day in about 20 minutes. If you wish, please PM me your phone number and I will have her call you immediately.

Also, please don't hesitate to contact me directly if I can be of any assistance.

Take care!

Thanks Dave & Curtis,

I've now spoken to Dave by phone and ordered the dark cherry Sierras. I also ordered the Epik Vanquish earlier today. Excited! Can't wait to audition them.

Meanwhile, until mid-next week I'll continue enjoying the Aperion towers, hoping the Sierras sound this good.

arkiedan

[pkzaher]

Did you get the Sierra-1 ? How do they stack up to the 6T. I have auditioned the 4T against the Sierra-1 and Sierra's sound better, but I have heard really
good things about the 6T - hope you post your thoughts on both once you get the Sierra's.

Anyone out there know of some good stands in Piano black?

[arkiedan]

Did you get the Sierra-1 ? How do they stack up to the 6T. I have auditioned the 4T against the Sierra-1 and Sierra's sound better, but I have heard really
good things about the 6T - hope you post your thoughts on both once you get the Sierra's.

Anyone out there know of some good stands in Piano black?

I did get the Sierras - they arrived yesterday. I spent several hours listening to them and was very impressed, though it'll take a couple more days to decide between them and the Aperion 6Ts. I did switch back and forth a dozens times or so and my first impressions are:

The Aperion 6Ts are a fine-sounding speaker, with a good mid-range and bass extension. But, at this point I like the Sierras better. As they say; the difference is in the details. I was playing several classical piano, guitar and violin pieces and the difference is that the 6Ts sounded like a speaker playing good guitar and violin music. The Sierras, on the other hand, just weren't there. It was like I was in the hall listening to Segovia and Mutter playing. I also got the same impression listening to a few operatic pieces. The difference is not at all subtle - very noticeable. Both produce a great soundstage, good imaging and dynamics, although I'll give the nod to the Sierras. They handled symphonic music as well as the Aperions, which surprised me quite a bit. The 6Ts go lower but for me that's a non-issue since I've got the Epic subwoofer on the way (took 'em a week to get it in the mail, dam* it!)

That's my initial impression. At this point I'm likely going to return the Aperions and order a Sierra center. Now that I've heard detail like that I doubt that I can give it up. The sound of Eric Clapton's and Andre Segovia's fingers plucking the strings of their acoustic guitars is impressive.

We'll see over the next few days.

Oh....the stands. Like you I've found nothing but flat and satin black metal stands.

arkiedan

[DougMac]

It was like I was in the hall listening to Segovia and Mutter playing.
Anne-Sophie Mutter is one of my favs. It wasn't until I got my Ascends that I could hear her little breath intakes just before she starts a phrase on the Carmen-Fantasie album. Her playing on the Mozart Violin Concertos 3 &5 when she was just 13 is astounding, not for her chops, but for her mature musicality.

Glad you're enjoying the Sierras.

[curtis]

The ability to be neutral while being detailed is an Ascend hallmark, something that really impressed me with the classic CBM-170 and just got better from there. They give you what was going on around the microphone.

Hope you get some more time to enjoy and compare.

Equally interesting is the lack of piano/gloss black speaker stands.

[Sam1000]

http://www.amazon.com/Lovan-Affiniti-Speaker-Stands-Piano/dp/B000OFAQVY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1253896860&sr=1-3

[arkiedan]

Anne-Sophie Mutter is one of my favs. It wasn't until I got my Ascends that I could hear her little breath intakes just before she starts a phrase on the Carmen-Fantasie album. Her playing on the Mozart Violin Concertos 3 &5 when she was just 13 is astounding, not for her chops, but for her mature musicality.


Yeah, a friend and I were arguing at lunch a couple weeks ago about which was the better violinist, Anne-Sophie or Sarah Chang. I finally convinced him that Anne-Sophie was far more beautiful and thus, the better player. Unscientific I know but..... :D

I love the opera, Carmen and her album, Carmen-Fantasie.

As for stands? If I go with the Sierras I've decided on the VTI UF 29" Cast Iron 29 stands. Since I got the cherry finish I think the satin finish will compliment the Sierras well. 29" because I'm now using some cheap old 24" stands and they're a little too low for my taste. They also have matching center speaker stands, which I'll be using.

arkiedan

[pkzaher]

I found very few piano black stands myself. Is there any advantages with metal over wood sound wise?

[curtis]

I found very few piano black stands myself. Is there any advantages with metal over wood sound wise?
no difference at all when it comes to stands.

[curtis]

arkiedan,

How is the listening coming along?

[arkiedan]

arkiedan,

How is the listening coming along?

Hello Curtis,

Oh the unfairness of it all! Yesterday I developed an ear infection and I'm sitting here right now with medication and a cotton ball stuffed in my left ear, suffering from pain like a severe toothache. Since I can't hear out of that ear I can't do any listening. Annoying!

On the plus side I sent the Aperions back and ordered a center Sierra just yesterday (after I went to the doctor!) They were fine-sounding speakers but IMO not on the level of the Sierras.

I love these Sierras! I don't think I've ever really heard such fine detail before. I'm listening more and more to string trios, piano sonatas and such. Man! It's like they're playing right there in the TV room. When I get both ears back I want to post a little more about my listening experiences because I am now a believer.

I've gotten some funny reactions to the Sierras from my wife and several friends. They walk into the TV room, see the diminuative Sierras, and think I'm joking. All they've ever seen are my old AR9s which were 5' tall and weighed 130 pounds. Their amusement turned to amazement though when I started the system up. Then they understood.

By the way, they're sitting on a pair of these:

VTI RF29 Cast Iron 29 inch Speaker Stands

Got them here:

http://www.standsandmounts.com

I was worried about the triple legs but these things are good-looking and rock-solid. I didn't even add sand they're so steady. The black satin color goes well with the cherry Sierras and the little logos on the bases are a classy touch.

Now I've got to design and build a stand to mount the center over the screen of my Sony RP. I don't want a wall mount so I'm going to modify a TV-mounted tray I ordered from Amazon. It's a good design but needs further reinforcement to keep the screen and mirror from being affected by the speaker's weight. I've done the drawings and now to get the materials. Hope to have it done when the center arrives next week.

Well, as you can see, I'm a long-winded old guy. :) I'll post back with my auditioning results when I can hear from both ears again in a day or two.

arkiedan

[curtis]

Thanks for the update.

Hope you get over the ear infection quickly so you can get back to enjoying the system!

[GPeaslee]

Hi arkiedan,

You went down the same path that I recently did. I never actually listened to the Aperions, but I spoke to them. After speaking with David, I went with the Sierra's. He convinced me that the quality of components in the Sierra's were better (not made in China), and you've got to love those bamboo cabinets. I was replacing my 20 year old Celestion bookshelf speakers which were wall mounted. Since the Sierra's were almost the same size, it made for a very easy installation. I also have the Sierra 1 center. Having 3 matching speakers across the front has made a huge difference for movies and 5.1 channel music. I also went with Epik but chose dual Sentinels. These replaced a Hsu VTF-2, and all I can say is that it was a major upgrade. I am also finding that the more I listen to the Sierra's, the better they sound. Maybe this is due to speaker break-in or maybe it is just my ear being re-trained to the benefits of a state-of-the-art modern speaker. Anyway, the bottom line is I love the combination of the Sierra's with the Epik Sentinels, and I am sure you will too.

[arkiedan]

Well, my "Swimmer's Ear" is finally gone after three weeks, two visits to a specialist and medication that cost more than a good pair of surround speakers! I can once again listen to my new Sierras and I'm loving it.

Now to decide whether to mount the center above or below the screen? Right now it's below and I'm not toally happy with that configuation. I need to figure out an easy way to mount it temporarily above the screen for test purposes.

Oh well....off to Atlanta for a week. See you all later.

arkiedan

[scape]

Well, my "Swimmer's Ear" is finally gone after three weeks, two visits to a specialist and medication that cost more than a good pair of surround speakers! I can once again listen to my new Sierras and I'm loving it.


this happened to me when i finally setup my speakers; took 2-3 weeks to get back to normal hearing-- and upset me the whole time haha. now i use white distilled vinegar (maybe 5%) and no q-tips. never has happened again.

[arkiedan]

this happened to me when i finally setup my speakers; took 2-3 weeks to get back to normal hearing-- and upset me the whole time haha. now i use white distilled vinegar (maybe 5%) and no q-tips. never has happened again.

Hmmm....could this be caused by the Sierras? Coincidence? I wonder.

Dave! You have some explaining to do! :D