Yet another "...how do Ascends compare..." thread :-)

[RazorX]

Let me apologize up front for both starting another one of these threads and also for posting such a long thread. :eek:

I suppose it is best to get my primary question out of the way so here goes...

Does anyone here have experience with Paradigm Monitor 7 speakers and the CMT-370 and/or Sierra-1 speakers that could offer their opinion of the sonic characteristics of each and comparisons/contrasts? I understand how subjective something like this is and I don't expect anyone here to tell me what I will like but I'm hoping any input by people who have listened to each can help me decide if moving to one of the Ascend models would be a good move for my tastes, needs, wants, etc.

There are certain things I love about the Monitor 7's and there are things I have never been completely satisfied with. I would have to say they have been a good investment overall as they tend to do more things well than bad - and they have lasted almost four years in my system. :D

What I do like about the Monitor 7
The things I do really like about them is their ability provide good detail, imaging, and separation on the certain content/sources. They present a nice soundstage for movies and two channel music. The detail and separation is really good for jazz, jazz fusion, and other music that has natural separation between the instruments. I'm not sure if that last statement makes sense or not but the things I don't like should help clear up what I mean.

What I do NOT like about the Monitor 7

They tend to sound overly bright when played loud and even at moderate levels for some content. I would consider it to be harsh actually.
The separation I hear and love so much on jazz, jazz fusion, etc. vanishes when the music or movie soundtrack has too much going on at the same time. It seems like the midrange and/or tweeters become overwhelmed when there are too many distinct instruments/sounds competing for their attention within the same frequency range. The different instruments just seem to meld together into a muddled mess.

I have been able to tame most of the harshness of the speakers by applying acoustic treatments in my room. The application of room treatments very well could be the best investment I have made in this room. The room is rather small and is comprised mostly of hard surfaces so it was absolutely necessary.

I guess my primary goal is to see if I can find speakers to replace my Monitor 7's that will eliminate the two issues I have with them but that will not force me to give up any of the characteristics I like and/or love about them - without costing a fortune. :D

I would also replace my current center channel speaker to ensure I have a good timbre match across the front soundstage. I would like to retain my current surround and rear speakers though. The rear speakers are in-wall speakers so I don't really want to mess with the hassle of swapping them out and I'm pretty happy with the surround performance of this system..at least for now. It seems like a it would be better to keep the four surround channels voice matched even if they are different timbre than the front soundstage as opposed to having the front three the same as the surrounds but different than the rears. Feel free to offer up your opinions on this as well.

Here is my current system:

Mains: Paradigm Monitor 7 v4
Center: Paradigm CC-370 v4
Surround (sides): Paradigm ADP-370
Rear (back wall): Paradigm AMS-250
Subwoofer: Elemental Designs A5 - 350 (OK, so not all Paradigm)
AVR: Onkyo TX-SR705
AMP (driving the three front channels): Emotiva XPA-3
Blu-ray/gaming: PS3
More gaming / media center extender: XBOX 360
HD-DVD: Toshiba HD-A35
SACD/DVD-A/CD Audio: Marantz DV6001
SAT: DirecTV HD DVR Plus
TV 61" JVC LcOS RP - Yeah, I know

I also have a pair of Buttkickers mounted to the underside of the sofa which are powered by a BKA1000 and I'm using a Behringer FBQ2496 to smooth out some nasty room modes in the LFE.

My room is 11.5' x 16' x 8'. I have sound absorption on the whole front/screen wall, at the early reflection points of the side wall, and at the early reflection points of the rear wall. Additionally, I have bass traps floor to ceiling in the two front corners.

I've had the system for about four years now and I've upgraded/improved various components over the years. I started with a pair of Paradigm PW-2100 subs and a second pair of ADP-370's for the rear channels. I was never really crazy about the di-poles for all four surround channels and I'm much happier with the current configuration. The two 10" subs did a decent job with music but never had the extension or authority I wanted in movies - which is why I originally installed the Buttkickers. the eD sub has taken care of this and has served me very well in my smallish room.

The EMO amp is a recent purchase and I have been very happy with it so far. I originally used a Yamaha RX-V2500 AVR in with this system but replaced it with the ONK when I added BD and HD-DVD to my system so I could pass/process the new hi-rez audio from those sources. I was never completely happy with the sound of the ONK for music playback - especially two channel. The detail was lacking almost like there was a light veil over the speakers and the soundstage seemed smaller and more 2 dimensional than it did with the Yamaha. The EMO has rectified these issues very well. The detail and soundstage is better than ever.

I will close by giving a breakdown on my listening preferences for this system and room.

I know everyone likes to know the split between music and HT but that is really hard for me as this changes from week to week in my house so I will say it is an even 50/50 split.

I/we usually watch between two and four movies a week. The movies we watch range from animation and kids movies, drama, and action/sci-fi/fantasy. A little bit of everything really. I know the CC-370 isn't the best center channel and either of the Ascend center channel speakers I'm considering should be a noticeable improvement for dialog and other center channel duties.

I usually listen to music at least two or three hours a night. My music listing is probably a mixture of ~60% listening to background music while I work on the laptop and 40% "critical" listening where I sit with the lights dimmed and not doing anything else. I would speculate my music listing sources would be about 65% two channel and 35% multi-channel (SACD/DVD-A). I listen to a pretty eclectic mix of music. I like music from almost every conceivable genre Here's what I have listened to today...

Iron Maiden - Piece of Mind (CD) two channel
Jewel - Pieces of You (CD) two channel
Donald Fagen - Kamakiriad (DVD-A) multi-channel
Keb' Mo' - Just Like You (SACD) two channel
3 Doors Down - Away from the Sun (SACD) two channel
U2 - Go Home: Live from Slane Castle Ireland (DVD) multi-channel
David Sanborn - Timeagain (DVD-A) multi-channel
Porcupine Tree - Deadwing (DVD-A) multi-channel
XM/Sirus stations: The Spectrum, Classic Vinyl, Watercoolers, The Pulse, and Bluegrass Junction - all two channel (I never listen to two channel sources in multi-channel on this system - I just don't care for the way it sounds. I think it completely destroys the soundstage and sounds "wrong")


About the only thing I watch on TV, other than movies is sports (college football, college basketball, and NFL) and nature/eduTV like Dicovery, History, etc. I do also watch the series Heroes and my wife forces me to watch American Idol :o.

I am a recreational video gamer and log anywhere between 2 and 20 hours a week playing depending on if there is a game that has really captured my attention. This includes about an hour two or three days a week with the family playing Rock Band 2.

Oh, and I'm not really concerned about the price difference between the CMT-340 and Sierra-1 speakers so cost would not be a deciding factor. I also think I should be able to fill a room like mine just fine with either so efficiency shouldn't be a big factor either. I also never (OK, very rarely) listen to anything at reference levels. I have my system calibrated to 75dB and usually watch movies at -15. Music is played at 50dB - 60 dB when used for background and between 60dB - 80dB when critical listening.

See why I felt I needed to apologize for the long post now? There are bound to be a few typos in a tome like this that I missed so my apologies for that as well. ;)

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide.

[curtis]

As far has Paradigms are concern, the Sierra-1 has been compared to the Signature 2v1, and in the past the CMT-340 has be compared to the Studio 20 and 40.

Maybe someone in your area can give you a demo.

[RazorX]

Thanks for the response Curtis. Yeah, I have read every post I could find that compared the different Paradigm models. Unfortunately. I'm not familiar with the Paradigm models that have already been compared to the Ascend models so I'm not sure how that would translate to the differences between them and the Monitor 7's.

I like the idea of auditioning them but I looked at the Frapper map and there aren't any owners of the two Ascend models I'm interested in listed near me. The closest I could find was 2.5 hours away. I also looked at the Members List feature of this fourm and I didn't see anyway to determine where the members live. Please let me know if there is another way to find someone close by.

BTW, I live in central OH so anyone that has the Sierra-1 or CMT-340 speakers that lives in the area that wouldn't mind letting me into your home for an audition...:D

Thanks in advance for any assistance you guys can provide - either by responding to my original question(s) or for an audition.

[Mag_Neato]

RazorX, where in Ohio are you located? I am in Cleveland and have Sierra-1s, though they are not set up at present. I also have an Onkyo TX-SR703, which is the same series as yours, though I did not spring for an XPA amp like I wanted to. There's also Jeff(Debo) who lives in the area, and actually gave me an audition of his 340SE's before he upgraded to Sierras.

Edit: just saw your 2nd post. Central is about 2.5 hours, but it could be worth it if it will take any doubts away.

[RazorX]

Thanks for the offer Ed. I may take you up on it after the weather breaks a little and if I still haven't made a decision by then.

Would you mind if I brought my Monitor 7 mains with me so I could listen to both in the same room and on the same system?

Thanks again,
Rich

[Mag_Neato]

No problem, Rich. Just let me know when you would like to do it, and I will try and coordinate my schedule. I may have to make a "demo" setup somewhere since everything is boxed up. At least that will let me hear my system again! If you want to bring the XPA-3 feel free!:D

[RazorX]

Thanks again. I really don't want to put you out though. I don't want you to dig stuff out of boxes and set everything up just so I can listen to your gear. I'm not really in a big rush - I mean, I have been using the Monitor 7's for almost four years now and they aren't unbearable or anything. :D It will probably be a little while (a month or more) before I would be able to free up the time on my end.

I wouldn't mind bringing the amp if you want to hear it with your setup. I would say that is the least I could do to repay your hospitality.

[curtis]

Rich...here is the post about the Signature 2 and Sierra-1:
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=3136&highlight=paradigm+signature

For the Studio stuff, over the years, they are all over....a search should bring stuff up here and other forums.

Hopefully, you and Ed will be able to hook up when you both have time.

[RazorX]

Curtis,

Thanks for the link and suggestions. I had already read trough that post and review. In fact, I have searched this forum and think I have read every single post on this board which contained the work Paradigm in it. :D I have actually spent the last 2+ weeks scouring the net looking for all the information I could find on the Ascend speakers. This forum in particular has a ton of great information and people. AVS has quite a bit of good info too. I have only read one user review that wasn't glowing and it seems the speakers simply weren't a good fit for his listening preferences.

Unfortunately, almost all of the information I have found regarding Ascend speakers and Paradigm speakers are exactly what you mentioned. I have never really listened to either of those models much and I haven't had them in my room and hooked up to my equipment. I'm not really sure how much I can draw from those comparisons and extrapolate to apply to the Monitor 7's I am used to. Hopefully, Ed and I can get together and do some A/B testing. I know I can always order a pair of the Sierra-1's, CMT-370's (or both) and demo them but I really only want to do that when I'm more confident I am going to like the sound they deliver. This way I am using the 30 demo time just to validate my prediction as opposed to "testing the waters" so to speak.

I know this is off topic from my original post but...there are really two things that has placed the Ascend speakers at the top of my list. One is probably pretty obvious. The amazing value these speakers apparently present. It is pretty shocking that speakers at these two price points are compared so frequently, and favorably, to speakers costing so many times more.

The second is the perception I have of the company and of Dave Fabrikant specifically. Customer service and the basic principals a company operates under are important to me. Everything I have read about the company and Dave makes me believe their values align with my own. In fact, I have read many posts/comments from Mr. Fabrikant and I have been utterly impressed with the way he has carried and conducted himself.

Regardless of whether I end up with a pair of Ascend speakers, a different brand of speakers, or even if I decide to hold on to my current speakers for a while longer, I can tell you I am extremely impressed with the company and they will be high on my list when I am shopping for any product category they have an offering in.

BTW, I originally had Rockets on my list as well as the new X-Statik/X-Voce combo. I have pretty much eliminated the Rockets based on what I have read on them. I don't mean to say there is anything wrong with them. They seem like really great speakers from what I have read. It's just that they appear to be even brighter than my current speakers and that is something I'm looking to tone down a little. The X-Statik/X-Voce combo is really the only other speakers I am considering outside of the Ascends at the moment. Please don't let this last paragraph distract you from my original goal of this thread. I am getting information on a comparison of the X-series in another dialog. I really just added it to further expand on the process I'm going through at the moment and to make sure I'm as transparent in my dialog here as the Ascends are reproducing music. ;)

Thanks again for all of your help,
Rich

[Mag_Neato]

I am just as eager to try the Emotiva with the Sierras and see what a difference it makes over my Onkyo TX-SR703. One of my earlier systems consisted of Vandersteen 1b's and a Rotel 60x60watt Amplifer, running off a NAD integrated amp's preamp section. This was prior to ever having a sub in the system. It sounded pretty good. One of the Vandy's developed a separated surround on the woofer and I had to have the dealer send it to California for repair. I took that opportunity to switch the Rotel into bridged mode, putting out a healthy 180 watts. Even with only one speaker playing, it was a drastic improvement in dynamics and bass solidity/quality. I was ready to buy a second Rotel and run them briged, but it had been discontinued and I did not have the WAF.

So, I have been toying with the idea of adding a separate amp for the L/C/R, such as the XPA-3, and with the current sale price of $499+ $25 shipping I am sorely tempted, but I really need to watch my pennies right now.

[ebh]

it also might be worth it to you to take advantage of the 30 day trial. yes, you have to pay return shipping if you don't end up keeping them, but you seem to have a good grasp of what you like in a speaker and what you are looking for, so trying them out in your room with your room corrections and on your gear would be a big benefit. I would definitely recommend demoing the Sierras.

[RazorX]

I am just as eager to try the Emotiva with the Sierras and see what a difference it makes over my Onkyo TX-SR703. One of my earlier systems consisted of Vandersteen 1b's and a Rotel 60x60watt Amplifer, running off a NAD integrated amp's preamp section. This was prior to ever having a sub in the system. It sounded pretty good. One of the Vandy's developed a separated surround on the woofer and I had to have the dealer send it to California for repair. I took that opportunity to switch the Rotel into bridged mode, putting out a healthy 180 watts. Even with only one speaker playing, it was a drastic improvement in dynamics and bass solidity/quality. I was ready to buy a second Rotel and run them briged, but it had been discontinued and I did not have the WAF.

So, I have been toying with the idea of adding a separate amp for the L/C/R, such as the XPA-3, and with the current sale price of $499+ $25 shipping I am sorely tempted, but I really need to watch my pennies right now.
I don't know how much better the Sierra's will sing with an external amp like the XPA-3 but I would guess it would be a noticeable improvement based on my experience with my Monitor 7's. I was never really very happy with the sound from my 705. The Yamaha I used before the ONK sounded noticeably better to my ears. I think the mid level ONKYO's deliver a lot of bang (i.e features) for the buck but I also think the amplifier is where they cut corners. I considered returning it soon after I bought it but decided to hang on to it and add an external amp - something I toyed with even when I was running the Yamaha.

Say, you are certainly welcome to cruise on down to C-bus with your Sierra's and do a demo of my amp if you would prefer not setting everything up at your place right now. I would be happy to swap them back and fourth between my 705 and the EMO. :D;)


it also might be worth it to you to take advantage of the 30 day trial. yes, you have to pay return shipping if you don't end up keeping them, but you seem to have a good grasp of what you like in a speaker and what you are looking for, so trying them out in your room with your room corrections and on your gear would be a big benefit. I would definitely recommend demoing the Sierras.
Yeah, I have considered that but I want to gain more knowledge before I make that commitment.

I know the 30 day trial is offered with no strings attached and I know that is why they offer it...but I would prefer to use the return policy as a last resort. The shipping charges are certainly a factor but not a huge one. I don't want to spend money for something I don't use anymore than the next guy but it is more than that really. Ascend will not be able to sell the speakers as new so they will also be taking a loss on the deal and I don't feel good about that without at least putting in the effort required to gain a reasonable level of confidence in the purchase prior to ordering.

I figure the best I can predict at this point would be a 50/50 chance I will like them vs. sending them back. I have every confidence they are great speakers based on everything I have read but I really have no idea if I will prefer their sound over the Monitor 7's I'm currently using or vice versa based on my current knowledge level. I also understand that I really will not know if they are a good match for me and my environment until I hear them. That will be the ultimate and final test (30 day return offer) but my goal is to see if I can garner some additional information here before moving to that step.

Thanks for response and recommendations,
Rich

[debo]

Rich

Just as Ed suggested I am open for a demo also!

[RazorX]

Thanks Jeff. Perhaps we could all coordinate a time when we could knock both demos out on the same day.

Off topic but...Is that your Vette in the your avatar picture?

[Mag_Neato]

Rich, having seen it firsthand, yes, that is Jeff's Vette. It is VERY nice!

BTW....if you want to do the demo at Jeff's with his Sierra's, that might work out better since he has a nice setup in his finished basement. I could stop by for visit as well if Jeff is open to all this. Last time I visited him, he had 340SE's across the front with 200's pulling surround duty. He had a nice Rotel receiver powering everything and a BIC 12" sub.

Oh, and a lovely wife to boot!:D

[Jonnyozero3]

You shouldn't boot Jeff's wife! That's not nice!

[debo]

Works for me!

[novaduckfan1]

Greetings. I'm a relatively new Sierra 1 owner. Although I've never heard the Monitor 7s, I'm just chiming in given that you mentioned Emotiva amps. I can attest that the Emotiva LPA-1 and Sierra 1s make a wonderful combination :D. I highly recommend you give the XPA-3 a try to see if you like it. I think Emotiva's XPA-3 sale ends this weekend, but regardless you do get a 30-day trial period.

[RazorX]

Rich, having seen it firsthand, yes, that is Jeff's Vette. It is VERY nice!

BTW....if you want to do the demo at Jeff's with his Sierra's, that might work out better since he has a nice setup in his finished basement. I could stop by for visit as well if Jeff is open to all this. Last time I visited him, he had 340SE's across the front with 200's pulling surround duty. He had a nice Rotel receiver powering everything and a BIC 12" sub.

Oh, and a lovely wife to boot!:D


Works for me!

Sounds good.

Let's see if I am keeping up...

Ed, I know you have Sierra-1 mains. Do you also use a Sierra-1 center?

Jeff, Do you have Sierra-1's or CMT-340's for your mains and center? It sounds like you may have replaced the 340's with the Sierra's but I'm not sure if I followed that correctly. Do you have both 340's and Sierra's?

[Mag_Neato]

I have Sierra mains only. I am still using an older B&W center speaker. I am using Axiom QS8's for surrounds, and a kit built Rythmik DS12(Direct Servo 12") sub in a custom-built 2cu.ft. sealed enclosure.

I definitely want to add a Sierra center. Jeff is running 3 Sierra-1's up front, with the 200's for surround, I think.

[debo]

Rich

I have 3 Sierra-1's up front and 170SE's for surrounds. I replaced 340SE's in the front and 200's for surrounds.

[Mag_Neato]

Ah, 170SE's in place of the 200's. Is there a very noticeable difference? Did you sell off the 340's and 200's?

I am planning to upgrade my older B&W center to a Sierra-1 to match the fronts, but it may be a while.

[debo]

I thought there was enough of a difference to make the switch. I traded in the 200's and sold the 340's.

[RazorX]

Thanks for all of the input and help you guys have provided. I am now out of the market for a new set of speakers to replace my Monitor 7's, at least for a while.

My funds are going to be redirected to a new heat pump and perhaps a furnace upgrade. My current heat pump gave up on us Monday morning. We aren't sure the extent of the damage yet but the heat pump will definitely need replaced. We may also need to replace our furnace. The furnace status is unknown at this time. The furnace is pretty old and we may not be able to find the parts needed on that end which could lead to the need to replace it as well. Therefore my discretionary funds are going to be impacted for sometime (3 months/6 months/longer?). On the bright side; I can get a furnace with a quieter fan if it needs replaced and reduce the HVAC noise level in my theater room. :D:rolleyes:

I will not need to audition the speakers any time soon now. I do not want to hear a difference in the sound quality and then not be able to afford them for 6 months or more. That would be too cruel. :(

Oh well, thanks again for everything and I'll hopefully be able to set up an audition time in the future.

[Mag_Neato]

You only have 35 days until Spring, just buy some extra blankets!:D

That sucks when well-laid plans are trashed like that, especially for something like a furnace or roof job.

well, by the time you are ready, I may have my system setup and sounding fantastic!

[RazorX]

You only have 35 days until Spring, just buy some extra blankets!:D
That was pretty good. I actually did laugh out loud at that one. Some people near me glanced over like I was crazy or something. I guess they aren't so happy at work that they randomly bust out laughing like I do. :D


That sucks when well-laid plans are trashed like that, especially for something like a furnace or roof job.

well, by the time you are ready, I may have my system setup and sounding fantastic!
Yeah, it does suck. I guess that is what the "rainy day" funds are for. I don't mind spending money and I don't mind spending money on home maintenance. I just hate unexpected home expenses like this...especially when it prevents me from buying something I want :D

I am actually starting to look forward to the new heat pump because my current one is right off the deck where our table sits and it can make conversations out there a bit taxing. We are not only going to get a quieter one but we are also installing it farther away from the deck. We grill out and eat on the deck most evenings in the summer so that will be really nice.

I hate to admit it but the idea of a new quieter furnace is also starting to sound nice. The current one is so loud that it can be distracting when it is on and you are watching a quiet passage of a movie or listening to music.

Thanks again for the offer.

[ironmike86]

I hate to admit it but the idea of a new quieter furnace is also starting to sound nice. The current one is so loud that it can be distracting when it is on and you are watching a quiet passage of a movie or listening to music.

Thanks again for the offer.
I just had to replace my furnace. The 95% variable sure beat my 80% single stage in heat and noise. Not to mention a big notice in filters. While I wanted to buy Sierra my heat was more important and used alot more. maybe I will save on heating co$t? :) Now to save again. :)