HTM-200SE question

[tcat]

I have 5 HTM-200SE's and a AV123 MFW-15 Sub. Very happy listening to music and most DVDs, but it seems I'm losing a bunch of high's watching HDTV. I just noticed how "bad" it was tonight while watching I Am Legend. I have Dish Networks VIP722 STB, optical to Onkyo 805. 805 shows to be receiving DD, and sounds "OK". Dialog could be louder, but effects are great.

Problem: I can mute the TV speakers (which I normally do when 805 is on), but if I unmute the TV, I hear a lot of sounds through the TV I don't hear through the 805 (or 200SE's).. sounds like crickets, birds, water running, and other "high" frequency type sounds. Now I know the 200's are capable, but there must be "something" wrong with my set-up, in that when I mute the TV, all those sound disappear (completely). TV = 50PX600U.

Any suggestions?

[curtis]

Seems like the 805 is turning down the treble.

Do you have THX engaged? What about Audessey? Try shutting those off. Also, do you have a SPL meter? You should check the speaker levels and make sure they match.

[Gov]

It is definately NOT the 200SE's. They are more than capable of producing those sounds. I think Curtis is right. If you have the EQ engaged on the 805it may be muffling some of the higher frequency stuff

[davef]

It doesn't sound like an issue with your receiver or the speakers since DVD's sound OK. I would check settings on the satellite receiver and possibly give Dish Networks a call. Something is definitely not right...

[BradJudy]

I expect the 805 has pre-input configuration options and for some reason the setup is correct with DVD's and wrong with the Sat box. Make sure you hear sound from all of the speakers when you're on Sat and it says DD - it almost sounds like the center channel is off and you're only hearing the L/R channels.

[tcat]

I'll try turning off Audessey tonight. I only have optical going from Dish receiver to 805, video goes straight to TV. I tried turning up treble to +10db and made no difference out of the 200SE center. All the dialog is coming from the center. Does say DD5.1 on the 805, and I tried THX, tried 2 and 4 channel stereo, pretty much tried all the settings the 805 offered. But didn't try turning off the equalizer, will do tonight. Do have sound meter, and after running Audessey at 6 points at or near my listening position, the sound meter registers +/-1 db at all 5 speakers.

Could I have a bad toslink cable? Does seem more like it's Dish STB related, there's not many settings there to play with, but I'll look at them. The 805 "must" be set right, since I only have toslink going to it, and sound is coming out. With DVD it's all through HDMI... tends to make me think it could be toslink related. I'll try changing it out tonight too. I'll also switch one of the 200SE fronts with the center just to make sure something isn't wrong with the center. Thanks for the suggestions!

[BradJudy]

I have the exact same Dish 722 and it works fine for me. I'll poke around in the settings a bit to see if there's something that could be the problem.

If the receiver says DD and you're getting sound, it's unlikely the cable is the problem. Optical cables are usually all or nothing (or intermittent cut-outs).

[tcat]

You might try watching something with TV muted, then unmute and see if you hear anything "extra". My center "works", it's just missing the highs. I remember when I had TWC and SA8300 box, there was a large sound difference going from HDMI and DD optical. I'm thinking it must be a VIP722 setting. Pretty sure I have it set to DD, but I'll check later (seems if it wasn't set, no sound would come out). I'll also try running the HDMI from the 722 to the 805 and see if that makes a difference (although I really don't want to have to turn on the 805 to watch TV).

[tcat]

I've messed with various recordings, and the "missing sounds" seem very random. With most movies similar sounds can be heard switching between TV speakers and 200SE's, but some noises like in 2001 SO, various noises at beginning - high pitched background noises - seem to dissappear when switching to 805/200SE's (similar to what disappeared in Legend). It could be the TV speakers are amplifying something that shouldn't be amplified, and the 200SE's are a more accurate representation. Listening to concert videos, the 200SE's are much better than the TV speakers.

Just very odd, on some shows the TV speakers actually sound better/fuller, but most shows the 805/200SE's just blow away the TV. I'm actually considering buying a AV X-cs Encore for my center, I believe it should "match" well with the 200SE's. With the MFW-15 Sub, hardly matters what the fronts are. The TV speakers in a 50PX600U are very good on their own (much better than most TV's I've heard).

How much an improvement would a 340SE center be over the 200SE center? Can rear port be plugged? (I have center in a drawer).

[curtis]

Not all shows on TV are Dolby Digital.

What DSP mode are you using for the shows that are not DD? What is the treble/tone controls setting on the TV?

I don't think the X-CS will match as well. With any subwoofer, it does matter what the fronts are since the subwoofer has nothing to do with the midrange and treble. I would call Ascend about the use of the 340SE center in your situation.

[Mike^S]

Ya don't go changing the center channel. You have three identical speakers up front. That is how it should be.

I'm not surprised that the TV speakers sound different than the 200SE. But that is the key, they are different not really better. The TV speakers are designed to accentuate certain frequency ranges. This has a tendency to make things like vocals and high frequency sounds more prominent. But this is not accurate. You should be looking or rather listening to the entire sound spectrum.

Also consider the source. If it's an old movie, it probably wasn't recorded very well. But when you listen to a good quality recording that's when you see how much better the good speakers are.

[davef]

Changing the center channel is not going to solve the problem (only cause new ones). The HTM-200 SE has an exceptional tweeter - in fact, I know of no other sub $400 loudspeaker (aside from the 170 SE) that uses a tweeter of this quality and performance.

You mention that you hear different things when you switch from the Onkyo receiver to the television. You have to understand that you are comparing two distinctly different audio signals. I must assume that you are going analog left/right out from dish receiver box to the TV. This is not a DD mix. Often a movie soundtrack will have multiple mixes, 2 channel, DD and DTS. Often these soundtracks are mixed by different engineers and can sound completely different from one another.

Try this, take the analog left/right out of your dish receiver box and go into an analog left/right input on the receiver... Do you still hear any missing information?

Also, did you try swapping the center with one of the left/rights?

[tcat]

I generally use Dolby Pro Logic II Movie if not DD (or some musical mode if it's a concert). It is DD programs that seem to have the greatest variance. I can't image TV speaker would be picking up something the 200SE's wouldn't, unless it's some sort of amplification created bythe plastic TV housing.


Not all shows on TV are Dolby Digital.
What DSP mode are you using for the shows that are not DD? What is the treble/tone controls setting on the TV?

I don't think the X-CS will match as well. With any subwoofer, it does matter what the fronts are since the subwoofer has nothing to do with the midrange and treble. I would call Ascend about the use of the 340SE center in your situation.

[curtis]

I generally use Dolby Pro Logic II Movie if not DD (or some musical mode if it's a concert). It is DD programs that seem to have the greatest variance. I can't image TV speaker would be picking up something the 200SE's wouldn't, unless it's some sort of amplification created bythe plastic TV housing.
The TV does not process DD and is receiving a different signal for sound in those cases. Usually, it is a different sound mix all together.

[Tushar]

This may be a niave comment but I tend to notice high frequency detail much more when the low frequency is cut off. I was curious if you change the crossover and turn off the sub or engage Night Mode (so that you cut out low frequency) whether the speakers sound more like the TV. I doubt TV speakers go below 60Hz. I recently had a new receiver setup wrong and my wife was commenting on how beautifully detailed the high frequency was (Sierra-1's and HTM-200SE). I noticed it too, then realized sub was not getting a high enough signal to go Auto-On. Correcting that issue had no impact on the speakers output (the beautiful detail was still there) but I clearly noticed less of it once I had sound going down to 25Hz. If you're noticing the difference more on source material which has low frequency this may be playing a role-- though equalization and receiver setup can have big effect.

[tcat]

Nothing to do with lows; the 805/200SE's, and MWF-15 Sub more than take care of that and sound great (much better than TV). Only certain movies/shows have certain sounds that I can hear through TV speakers, that I can't through 200SE center (or LR). These sounds include crickets, birds, water and wind rushing. Definately could be something to do with analog and/or poor job VIP722 does at sending out a 5.1 signal.

[Tushar]

This may be a niave comment but I tend to notice high frequency detail much more when the low frequency is cut off. I was curious if you change the crossover and turn off the sub or engage Night Mode (so that you cut out low frequency) whether the speakers sound more like the TV. I doubt TV speakers go below 60Hz. I recently had a new receiver setup wrong and my wife was commenting on how beautifully detailed the high frequency was (Sierra-1's and HTM-200SE). I noticed it too, then realized sub was not getting a high enough signal to go Auto-On. Correcting that issue had no impact on the speakers output (the beautiful detail was still there) but I clearly noticed less of it once I had sound going down to 25Hz. If you're noticing the difference more on source material which has low frequency this may be playing a role-- though equalization and receiver setup can have big effect.

[curtis]

Nothing to do with lows; the 805/200SE's, and MWF-15 Sub more than take care of that and sound great (much better than TV). Only certain movies/shows have certain sounds that I can hear through TV speakers, that I can't through 200SE center (or LR). These sounds include crickets, birds, water and wind rushing. Definately could be something to do with analog and/or poor job VIP722 does at sending out a 5.1 signal.
Those types of sounds are generally associated with surrounds, not the center.

Are the speaker levels matched? Try listening for those sounds in the surround channels....or even the L/R mains.