Speaker specs and their meaning

[cynical2]

I'm in the market for L/C/R for my home theater (100% movies, no music, 2200 cubic feet), and Ascend is currently the leading contender. However, I'm having trouble deciding what to do. I'm considering every option Ascend offers (HTMs, 170s, 340s, and Sierras). I'm far from independantly wealthy, so I don't want to buy a "better speaker" if I'm not going to notice a difference.

One thing that I don't understand is the significance of Sensitivity when evaluating speakers. My primary three criteria for my home theater are (in order of priority):

1a and 1b: Ability to get loud while being clear (especially important is clear dialog), meaning no noticeable distortion at high volume levels
3: Accuracy (since I'm not listening to music it's not critically important that it's "perfect", but of course the more accurate, the better)

I'll be running with a sub, so I don't care too much about speaker performance below 80Hz.

When I look at the specs in the hope of helping with the decision, I find it difficult to discern how I can expect the speakers across Ascend's lineup to perform relative to each other. For example, take the HTM's (least expensive AA speakers) vs the Sierra's (most expensive):

Sierras:
Sensitivity: 86.5dB
Max Continuous Power: 200W
Max Peak Power: 400W
-3dB: 44Hz

HTMs:
Sensitivity: 87dB
Max Continuous Power: 200W
Max Peak Power: 400W
-3dB: 74Hz

Can I draw any conclusions regarding how much clean, undistorted volume I can get from the Sierras vs the HTMs? By the specs alone, it seems that with the slightly higher sensitivity of the HTMs, they are capable of slightly more output. I see that the Sierras go lower, but as mentioned my sub will take care of frequencies < 80Hz.

Common sense (and reviews of the Sierras) tells me that I'm not grasping the full picture...can someone help me with how I should think about the difference I should expect to hear/feel across the Ascend line-up, and put the relevance (or lack thereof) of the specifications in the proper context for me?

I would be most grateful for any help. I'm sure this is common knowledge to most people, so I appreciate everyone bearing with me.

[Mike^S]

Speaker sensitivity pretty much just tells you how loud a speaker will play given a certain amount of amplifier power. So the Sierra and 200SE will play at about the same level at a particular volume level on your receiver. Although this doesn't tell you anything about their max volume or what the distortion levels are.

Even though you'll be crossing the speakers over to a sub, the extra extension of the Sierras will be noticable. Although it won't be as much of a difference compared to running without a sub.

Unfortunately those specs do not tell you the whole story. The 200SE are no slouch I'm sure, but the Sierras are on another level. It all depends on what your budget is and how many speakers you need right now.

[P Seastrand]

The bad news is that I don't think there is a definitive answer to your question. The good news is that it's not really going to matter. I.e., any of the Ascend line will sound great. I have several friends that have gone with 5 HTMs (both classic and SE) and they sound great in their rooms -- similar to your size. I have 340SE's across the front with 170's at the rear in a much larger room which I think sound fantastic -- and so does everyone that comes to visit. I've never heard the Sierras, but from all the comments I'm sure you won't be disapointed.

But I think your question is does the "upgrades" sound good enough to warrant the price increase. I'm afraid that's a very personal question that only you can decide. How critical is your ear? How is the acoustics in your room? What amplification will you be using? These will all impact your listening and how much the difference will be heard. You didn't say what you will be using for the rears. Matching timber is probably going to be more important that choosing between the Ascend models.

Where are you located? You might be able to go audition someone's setup. Or, order a set and see how they sound. You can always return them.

Good luck, I know you won't be disapointed which ever model you choose.

[azanon]

The best bang for your buck by a long shot, especially with the sale going, is the 170s.

I've owned all of these except the Sierra's, and I can say that the HTM-200 feels to me like it's optimal for surround speakers. It absolutely kills me that I have to use a 200SE for my center, but i just don't have any other option. They're probably "ok" for movies only at all 5 positions, but I'd hate to have to use an HTM-200SE L/R for only my music.

In the end, you're going to balance your speakers, so like in my case, my HTM200SE c is balanced with my L/R 340SE. But that 200SE doesn't even come close to the "projection power" of the 340SE.

I used to have 170 classics, and those puppies could put out some serious sound - volumewise. The difference i noticed was that the sound was far more localized with the 170s than with my 340s. The 340s just fill my room up better with sound.

Go with the 170 or 340, based on you needs. The combination of the 3 things you mentioned 1. price conscious 2. crossing at 80hz and 3. need for most volume, logically eliminates the Sierra-1 as the best choice for you.

[davef]

Hi Cynical2,

The specs you have quoted from our site in no-way determine actual sound quality.

Sensitivity is a spec which determines how "loud" a speaker will be measured at 1 meter with an input of 2.83V. For example, a single CBM-170 SE will be approximately 3dB louder than a Sierra-1 with the exact same amount of power from a receiver or amp. And, to be more specific, the sensitivity spec indicates exactly how loud the speaker will be at 2.83V (this amount of voltage is used because it represents 1 watt into an 8 ohm load -- which is not entirely precise because loudspeaker impedance varies with frequency)

This spec is only important when you are considering using low-power amplifiers. For example, a 15-watt amplifier will have difficulty driving a speaker that is listed at a sensitivity of 82dB to moderate output levels, while the amp will have no problems at all with a speaker listed at 96dB sensitivity. For ANY of our loudspeakers, 50 watts or more is all you really need...


Can I draw any conclusions regarding how much clean, undistorted volume I can get from the Sierras vs the HTMs? By the specs alone, it seems that with the slightly higher sensitivity of the HTMs, they are capable of slightly more output. I see that the Sierras go lower, but as mentioned my sub will take care of frequencies

No, you can not draw that conclusion based on the sensitivity spec. In this case, all you can conclude is that at the same wattage level from you receiver, and provided that level is less than the maximum the speaker is capable of receiving, the HTM-200 will produce 1/2 dB more output (which is not an audible difference) Maximum output capability that each speaker is capable of is very similar. At any volume level, the Sierra-1 will be cleaner, offer better dynamics and deeper bass response.


Common sense (and reviews of the Sierras) tells me that I'm not grasping the full picture...can someone help me with how I should think about the difference I should expect to hear/feel across the Ascend line-up, and put the relevance (or lack thereof) of the specifications in the proper context for me?

There is no possible way to relate specifications to which speaker is going to sound better. The frequency response spec is a good indication of which speaker is more neutral (offers less "color") The -3dB point clearly indicates which speaker offers deeper bass extension.

Based on the specs alone, you can expect to hear considerably more bass out of the Sierra-1 and a slightly more neutral response. Based on the design, technical superiority and component quality of the two speakers, the Sierra-1 will offer significantly better sound quality.

Think about it this way, you are considering purchasing an old GTO or a new Vette. You can determine only a few minor items when comparing specs -- which car offers a faster 1/4 mile time or better handling. Forget you knew the age, reputation or engineering background of each car -- all you know is what you read from specs --- the GTO would look similar on paper (or possibly even better) -- which car is going to offer the better drive?

Food might be a better example, based on ingredients and nutritional values, you can make a good prediction which Ice Cream is going to be sweeter or have more fat, but it is impossible to determine which tastes better without tasting them (unless, of course, one brand in Haagen Dazs ;) )

If you can let us know what it is you are looking for (performance-wise), we can definitely offer appropriate advice.

For example, best sound quality possible
-or-
Speakers that need to play exceptionally loud and in a large room
-or-
Best bang for the buck
-or-
Need good sound quality but are limited in size and placement
-or-
Best you can get from us that meets a specific budget
-or-
Speakers that will work best with a very low power amp

Let us know your priorities…

Hope this helps!

[cynical2]

Thanks, all.

Dave, my 1st priority is that I want to plenty of clean volume. Exactly how loud I'm not sure, as I don't have anything to measure SPL in the room.

I can tell you that I auditioned speakers (from a very highly regarded company) rated at 85dB, driven with my Onkyo SR605, and came close to running out of headroom. In other words, the loudest clean sound level I could achieve was just barely above the level that I prefer to use when watching a movie. I wasn't comfortable keeping speakers that I had to max out my system during usage. It may be flawed thinking, but it didn't seem like a good fit for my situation if I had to have the receiver nearly full-blast to achieve the desired volume.

So, I'm really after the lowest cost option that will provide clean sound at a volume higher than those speakers delivered. It's likely that they could have gone louder, but it would mean upgrading my electronics, which I'd like to avoid if possible.

It seems that the 340's may be best for my situation, but in the back of my mind I still wonder if the HTM's would do the trick. As a reminder, I'll have a sub handling low frequencies no matter what speaker I get, and based on the posted FR charts, I'm not too concerned about accuracy from any of the Ascend speakers. It's pretty clear that Ascends are about as accurate as you're going to get at their respective price points.

Thanks again for any help!

[blindcat7]

I would go with the 340 SEs in your shoes. I have not heard either the original or the new SE version of the HTM-200s, but the 340s really are the kings of room filling and if you want to have headroom to spare I think they are the way to go.

I must say, though, that when I got Sierra 1s in the frontstage that I did not find it as difficult as I had expected to reach the volumes I had been used to with the 340 SEs with my Panasonic SA-XR57. Given the difference in sensitivity, I expected to have to crank the volume a lot more than I actually ended up needing to. My room is fairly small, but we are talking about reaching the same volume in the same space, so I think the experience would still be relevant.

Also, I would not discount the bass capabilities of the speakers. Yes your sub will be taking on the low end, but I have noticed that crossing over a speaker well above its low end limit seems to increase performance in the midrange. What lower frequencies the speaker has to deal with are way above its limits, so it seems to allow the speaker to really do its best with what you leave for it to handle.

In the end, I don't think you can lose with any of the Ascend models as long as you don't try to make them do something they aren't designed to do like say, try to use 5 HTM-200 SEs to fill a 15,000 cubic foot room with sound without a subwoofer. That might just be a bit much to ask of them. I suspect that the 200s would work in your room, but I think that the higher performance of the 340s would be worth the extra cost. I also suspect that the Sierras could likely handle the job despite the lower sensitivity, but since I don't know that for a fact and since I don't know if you personally would find the increased AQ to be worth the extra cost, I will leave any suggestions on them to others who might have experience in larger rooms and perhaps even with the Onkyo 605 specifically.

Just my point of view, HTH.

Chris

[cynical2]

Chris, thanks very much for your input! It is indeed very much appreciated.

While I wait for other opinions, here is another "theoretical" question about specs: Is the maximum power rating for a given speaker simply the most (clean) power that the speaker can handle before distortion becomes an issue?

[merrymaid520]

cynical,

I can comment a little on your last question. The max power number is more of a suggestion not an absolute stopping point. It is generally known that the more power you give a speaker(no matter the recommended #) the better.

You could easily give any ascend speaker 250-300w of good clean power and not have to worry. The more power is actually safer for speakers because they are more likely to be damaged by underpowering(clipping) versus the alternative.

Dave F. I am sure can explain this far better than myself, and I believe i have read something similar from him before.

As to your speaker search, I have owned every ascend model classic & SE's except for the HTM classics. I would say almost any model would work for you based on your room size although as others have mentioned, the 340's might be the best fit. They are best for output and sound darn close to the sierras in terms of bass & clarity(not quite though:)

The 200 SE's will also suprise you for their size! I have them runnning off of my receivers zone2 in a bedroom setup(1400cubic ft) and they sound fantastic, great bass for their size too.

Good luck!
Brandon

[cynical2]

Thanks very much, Brandon! Yea, I think at this point the 340's are my leading contender. I'm curious to hear additional comments from anyone willing to share.

[davef]

... think at this point the 340's are my leading contender. I'm curious to hear additional comments from anyone willing to share.

I completely agree with these recommendations.

For your situation, I think the 340 SE will be the perfect speaker for you :)

[cynical2]

I completely agree with these recommendations.

For your situation, I think the 340 SE will be the perfect speaker for you :)

Thanks, Dave!