my Sierra-1 et al story

[Mia & Lana's dad]

I'd like to share a little background info leading up to my trifecta of woofage. Last week I just finished putting up my acoustic treatments in their final position. Glenn Kuras and Bryan Pape of GIK Acoustics were called upon to custom tailor my room with Guilford of Maine adorned acoustic goodness. They transformed my space and made me believe I had an entirely different system - formerly 7.1 comprised of Sierra's and the lone Conquest. After re-running Audyssey with the panels, I immediately commenced basic SPL measurement with the usual run of bass titles. I started with WOTW. It was devastating. Literally. I pushed my system to its limit and suffered an overload which took out my front right main Sierra-1. I didn't notice something was wrong until I saw a red light on the front panel of my amp after hitting 120db during the pods emerge scene. I was really confused and disappointed to see that because increasing the volume was just so clean, effortless and confident. I didn't notice any audible distortion whatsoever.

I shut everything down and began to recap my experience with Dave@Ascend. I knew it was my fault and scheduled to bring my L/C/R in for bench testing. I dropped them off on a Monday and I received a call at the end of the week from Dina saying they were ready for pickup last Friday. When I arrived, Dave was the only one there working after hours and graciously opened up shop. He told me that I burnt both the tweeter and woofer voice coils to a crisp, looking like charcoal. I recalled, in an email, he explained that I was perhaps underpowered for the db's I was seeing at my listening position. Dave replaced the obliterated components at no charge and bid me a good weekend with a friendly warning to keep the db's down a little.

Although happy to get my front stage back, I was also slightly dismayed at now having to exercise cautious restraint. I love the sound quality of my system, I just wanted more without blowing stuff up! But.... how could I get the impact I craved - safely. I was about ready to spring for a beefier amp when I came across a few recent threads on MBM-12's. Unsure as to how well they would integrate with my Epik Conquest, I tried calling Chad first. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get through all week to ask him for his feedback and recommendation as I prefer to stay within the family as much as possible. Feeling desperate for a solution, after leaving Ascend, I impulsively picked up the phone and dialed up HSU Research. It rang and rang. I resolved that no one would answer. About to hang up, I heard a courteous "hello..." - not the Doc, but low and behold it was Pete to the rescue!

I pulled over at the nearest gas station so we could converse without distraction. Thanking Pete profusely, I inquired to the possibility of purchasing a pair of MBM-12's. He said, sure - no problem. I chuckled and said, how about in 30 minutes? He wasn't so sure this time around and asked me to hold on a second. Upon his return, Pete said that it was my lucky day and that maybe it was just meant to be - they had two left in stock at their office, both black. I wouldn't have to wait until next week for a warehouse shipment and that it was alright to make my way down to Anaheim if I could arrive by 7:30pm. I gave him my CC info and the rest is (very recent) history.

I didn't get much time to integrate over the weekend, spent some quality time with the family, visiting relatives and catching the Pacquaio/Marquez WBC Title bout on PPV. That was Saturday. However on Sunday, I had the house to myself and configured my newly enhanced 7.3 setup. I am a total novice to this hobby, but AVS has proven to be the central hub and repository for all the information one needs to get the job done right out the gates. Thanks for providing the bandwidth and storage for this wonderful community. With that said, I would like to thank the following in no particular order:

AVS Staff
Ascend Acoustics
Blue Jeans Cable
craigsub
cschang
Epik Subwoofers
funkmonkey
gandarf
GIK Acoustics
Home Theater Shack/Room EQ Wizard
HSU Research
nuance
rnrgagne
Kal Rubinson

I am pretty much just a lurker around these parts, so if some of you are perplexed as to why you're on my list, it's because you may have answered one or two pm's awhile back and I'm greatly appreciative. I try not to forget all those who've helped me build my first home theater (hopefully I don't suffer a brain fart all of a sudden under pressure!). And while there are a few on this list that may not have communicated directly with me, the reason why you're acknowledged is due to your high visibility as regulars and proliferate posts from which I have thoroughly enjoyed learning all I can.

Whew... are you still reading.. Okay, here's what I've got to show and tell...


http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc211/spocom_racefan/conquest-mbm-12-dual15-93hz-audysse.jpg


I really wanted to know how well everything melded together so today, I downloaded REW 4.11 for the first time ever and spent about 4 hours tweaking until I was able to produce the result you see above. I'm not sure if I did everything properly, but there it is. Comments, feedback and constructive criticism always welcome!

-Ron

[curtis]

Very cool Ron....but how does it sound? :)

[Mia & Lana's dad]

I'll say what you always do... You have to come over and listen for yourself!

Bring all your material, I don't have much to demo with.

-Ron

[davef]

Hi Ron,

You are most welcome!!

Bass response looks great! Hope you are getting all the "punch" that you are after :)

[Mia & Lana's dad]

the sierra's have the punch, they are the spearhead which leads the balanced attack headlong into battle, its fellow soldiers continue with the onslaught bringing the fury.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/MLdad-frontstage.jpg

I added two more MBM's and finally got around to snapping a shot.

I'm trying really hard not to blow up any more Sierra-1's Dave!

[Mike^S]

OMG!! That picture is awesome!! :D:D:D

[drewface]

:eek:

....


....



:eek:


wow

[Mr.Lawrence]

Wow!!! That sure is purdy! I'm not sure which is more impressive... you photography skills or the components in your system.

Looks like a glossy from an audio magazine.

What are you using for surrounds?

I would like to know more about your electronics and room treatments.

I can't help but wonder if the CMT-340se's wouldn't be a better choice to fulfill your high db hunger???

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Sierra-1 x 7 all the way around!

Pioneer DV-48AV as transport for CD/DVD-A/SACD over HDMI
Integra DHS-8.8 HD-DVD bitstream over HDMI
Pioneer 95FD Blu-Ray bitstream over HDMI
Integra DTC-9.8 pre-pro
NAD M25 7ch amp

Sony 52XBR5

GIK Acoustics

4 x Tri-Traps, floor to ceiling stacked in rear corners
3 x 242 ceiling mounted at 1st and 2nd reflection points
4 x 242 elite behind front stage
2 x 242 elite front sides, 1st reflection point, movable
6 x 242 rear side wall
2 x 244 on stands rear wall/french double door block

[davef]

Hi Ron,

Great shot! Wow... I still think you are a bit crazy though :p

[Mia & Lana's dad]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/MLdad-sittingarea.jpg

That's what you see in the rear view mirror... WARNING: Objects may be closer than they appear!

[Mike^S]

Hi Ron,

Great shot! Wow... I still think you are a bit crazy though :p

If anybody needs a Sierra 2, it's this guy! :D

[mziegler]

OMG:eek::D

Your set-up is awesome. I am so jealous.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

dont you have dual ultras?

[merrymaid520]

Sweet jesus!!!!!

That setup is very impressive. Great photography work also!

Makes my sierras setup pale in comparison:(

[mziegler]

not me--just a Hsu 3.2

[Mia & Lana's dad]

oh sorry for the confusion! My memory fails me. Darn, where did I read Curtis mentioning the dual ultras at a fellow sierra owner's here locally in the south bay...

[mziegler]

You are thinking of a friend of ours in Huntington Beach, I think. We both heard them--very impressive.

He runs Dynaudio Contours as mains.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

man, wrong again! I'm not going to post anymore without hitting the search button! Couldve sworn he had sierra's too. Just call me foot in mouth.

[curtis]

......here locally in the south bay...
are you in the south bay too?

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Yep... Do you know where Ricky & Ronnie's diner is?

[curtis]

Nope...but I just looked it up. That is pretty close....closer to mziegler though.

Growing up, we lived in Harbor City for 7 years, and my brother/sister-in-law live in the Green Meadows track houses.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

I grew up across the street from the meadows in the Wakefield estates just down Sepulveda a little bit. Moved up north to Livermore for a few years and came back after both my parents suffered strokes. They're stable now, but my dad is touch and go, in and out of the hospital every few months. We now live in the Green Meadows. What a small world.

[curtis]

I grew up across the street from the meadows in the Wakefield estates just down Sepulveda a little bit. Moved up north to Livermore for a few years and came back after both my parents suffered strokes. They're stable now, but my dad is touch and go, in and out of the hospital every few months. We now live in the Green Meadows. What a small world.
That is wild....my brother and his wife live in the house that used to be well known for all the its roses from the previous owner.

The seven years growing up, we lived in Del Amo Woods on the other side of Normandie. I went to President Ave. Elementary, and Fleming Junior High....would have gone to Narbonne HS.

Sorry about your Dad.

[mziegler]

yep, I live between Lomita and Sepulveda and Ocean and Anze

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Dave needs to file a patent with the transportation department because I just got back from the dark side of the moon. Teleportation is real and the Sierra-1's continue to dazzle, mystify and feed my ears and brain sonic LSD. This is a trip without any adverse effects. Time to bring out the time machine next Dave, please let me know when its ready.

[davef]

Dave needs to file a patent with the transportation department because I just got back from the dark side of the moon. Teleportation is real and the Sierra-1's continue to dazzle, mystify and feed my ears and brain sonic LSD. This is a trip without any adverse effects. Time to bring out the time machine next Dave, please let me know when its ready.

Hey Ron.. Let me know when the kids are away :D We can take in a little Floyd, some psychedelics and relive those good 'ole days :p

I am not too sure I can handle your volume levels though ;)

[Mia & Lana's dad]

At the heart of the Sierra is OPPIX™.

OPPIX stands for Optimized Paradromic Phase Integrated X-Over (crossover). This sophisticated variable slope crossover precisely aligns the acoustic phase response of multiple transducers at the exact point where the response of one transducer crosses over to another, with reference to a specific point in space. This precise alignment allows the transducers to mimic a single point source radiator, allowing for symmetrical dispersion even with an asymmetrical transducer layout while maintaining a linear frequency response and greatly reducing off-axis phase and response anomalies. It also avoids the undesirable frequency response anomalies commonly found with even the best coaxial drivers.

OPPIX™ also allows the Sierra to perform exceptionally well as a vertical or horizontal main and a vertical or horizontal center. I recommend three Sierras in the front (left, center, right) for the ultimate in timbre matching and soundstage consistency.



Dave's OPPIX™ is amazing. Soon, we will be putting it to the test. Wait, the test is done. What_ever_craziness are you referring to, Ron?



2) You need better mains and pronto!

This was a post from AVS on a similar thread I started in the Subwoofer forum after posting the pics of my setup. I am extremely happy with the sound quality of my Sierra-1's, so I disagree that I need better mains. However, that comment kinda stuck and irked me for awhile. As I mentioned previously, prior to getting the MBM's - I emailed Dave for help. Somewhere mixed up in that dialog, we touched upon exploring a new configuration but didn't go any further since I decided to pick up the first pair of MBM's. Well, you guys know that I didn't stop there and added two more MBM's. Do you guys see where this is going? Are you noticing a trend here?

Last week I shot an email to Dave to pick up where we left off on that new Sierra frontier.... it was a long shot and hopefully it is going to pay off in a major way.

[Mike^S]

There are a lot of people on AVS who don't know what they are talking about.

[Matt34]

There are a lot of people on AVS who don't know what they are talking about.

LOL, that's the understatement of the year.


;)


That's one heck of a system you have!! I am curious how you have the four MBMs hooked up.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

I have the Conquest and four MBM-12's split with Y connectors. The Conquest uses its internal x/o set @ 70hz. I have the MBM's set to 'out' and season to taste with Integra DTC-9.8 handling bass management. I set it at 150hz x/o for all seven channels, MBM's (50-150hz) handing off to the Conquest fine tuned to 70hz for smoother blending at the transition (initially @50hz). It worked very well for movies. I achieved max output without audible distortion for the demo scenes I was aiming to improve without strain, such as Mr. Brooks (hallway) and Open Range. I finally succeeded at reproducing the "punch to the chest effect" effortlessly and _without_ any sub localization. However, on the music side, transparency was diminished and imaging suffered with my SACD, DVD-A's and well recorded CD's. The Integra 9.8 has a 'Direct' mode that defeats the speaker x/o settings and defaults to full-band as well as cancelling Audyssey MultEQ. This was my preferred mode for music until last week after hearing the good news from Dave....

I've been retraining my brain and ears for the next level. To prepare for the auspicious moment, I am running full-band on all seven channels _plus_ double-bass set to 'ON'. This also preserves Audyssey MultEQ and has the best sound quality for both music and movies in my room. I just can't run the demo scenes full-throttle since that's where I ran into trouble before even setting the LCR Sierra's 80hz x/o.

How can we have our cake and eat it too?? That's something Dave has helped me figure out. Unadulterated Sierra quality and all the output even _I_ could want.

[curtis]

The shotgun blasts in "Open Range" must be crazy in your room!

[buddhadas]

What is the " good news from Dave"???

Thanks,

Jim

[Mia & Lana's dad]

That really is the crux of this dilemma isn't it? How does one improve the Sierra under its original design targets and price point? I don't think it is possible.


BUT

There's this crazy guy that is obsessed and diseased... Dave's cure for this madman entails the following:



linear frequency response
horizontal dispersion maintained
symmetrical vertical dispersion maintained, but narrowed, resulting in less floor & ceiling bounce
lower distortion
greatly increased dynamic capability
lower intermodulation distortion


oh yeah, and OUTPUT like WHOA

[drewface]

so... am i missing something here, or am i not alone in being completely confused?

[buddhadas]

I too, am completely confused Drewface. So if it's any consolation, you are not alone. What would really be nice would be some mysterious hint of an Ascend subwoofer. Come on Dave throw us a bone.:D

Jim

[blindcat7]

The primary reason my post count on AVS hasn't risen much for some time. I've only recently gone back to reading interesting threads there. It is not just the people, even some with post counts in the thousands, who don't know what the heck they are talking about, it is the unbearable number of people who can't even admit that their personal prejudices run roughshod over every post they make and who seem completely unable to allow for the possibility that they might be mistaken about their preconceptions.

While there is some specific brand prejudice, I think the largest number of these types of posts come from ID prejudice. If you ask most of these posters if they have ever heard Ascends, they likely haven't and if they have did not demo them in any way that would counter their prejudice in any way.

After over a decade of reading and posting on AVS, I am trying to keep it in my list of information and discussion resources, but the last few years it has gotten harder and harder.

Can't wait to hear more about what Dave has in store.

Chris


Dave's OPPIX™ is amazing. Soon, we will be putting it to the test. Wait, the test is done. What_ever_craziness are you referring to, Ron?



This was a post from AVS on a similar thread I started in the Subwoofer forum after posting the pics of my setup. I am extremely happy with the sound quality of my Sierra-1's, so I disagree that I need better mains. However, that comment kinda stuck and irked me for awhile. As I mentioned previously, prior to getting the MBM's - I emailed Dave for help. Somewhere mixed up in that dialog, we touched upon exploring a new configuration but didn't go any further since I decided to pick up the first pair of MBM's. Well, you guys know that I didn't stop there and added two more MBM's. Do you guys see where this is going? Are you noticing a trend here?

Last week I shot an email to Dave to pick up where we left off on that new Sierra frontier.... it was a long shot and hopefully it is going to pay off in a major way.

[drewface]

I too, am completely confused Drewface. So if it's any consolation, you are not alone. What would really be nice would be some mysterious hint of an Ascend subwoofer. Come on Dave throw us a bone.:Di personally think dave has essentially confirmed he is working on a sub in other threads without saying it explicitly. the riddles being thrown around here, however, sound like something else... guess we'll just have to wait and see :D

[tank418]

Amazing

[Sam1000]

That really is the crux of this dilemma isn't it? How does one improve the Sierra under its original design targets and price point? I don't think it is possible.


BUT

There's this crazy guy that is obsessed and diseased... Dave's cure for this madman entails the following:



linear frequency response
horizontal dispersion maintained
symmetrical vertical dispersion maintained, but narrowed, resulting in less floor & ceiling bounce
lower distortion
greatly increased dynamic capability
lower intermodulation distortion


oh yeah, and OUTPUT like WHOA

ahh.. Looks like a floorstander ...:p

[Eddie Horton]

C'mon, guys. What gives with the hints? Improved vertical directivity, high dynamics? Let me at 'em.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

The Sierra's have been upgraded!

[buddhadas]

could you give us another small crumb of info?

Thanks,

Jim

[Mia & Lana's dad]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/shiela-01.jpg

[Eddie Horton]

What do you think of the sound and how are you powering them?

[drewface]

:eek:

[Mia & Lana's dad]

I just finished wiring them up and re-calibrated. They still present an 8 ohm load to my NAD M25 after following the diagram Dave provided. So far I've only listened to a few tracks of Norah Jones' SACD, but I am emphatically pleased to report that music has never sounded better in my room. I used to think I knew what 3d, holographic imaging was before. I really can't think of words accurate enough to describe my euphoria. One thing's for sure though - this new setup truly exceeded my expectations.

Thanks Ascend for indulging my insanity.

[buddhadas]

Good God!!!!

You have four a side stacked??
:eek:

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Don't forget the center stack, I didn't feel like taking the grilles off in the middle.

[davef]

Hey Ron,

SHIELA -- love it! Sierra Horizontal Independant Enclosure Line Array.

I need to make you a single grille for each stack. Let me know how the strapping goes and what your solution is and, provided that you are finished with your insanity :p, we should discuss a single grille solution.

[curtis]

OH My!!!!
but you can't see the TV...

[drewface]

but you can't see the TV...haha, that was my first thought! could the center array be placed sideways?

[buddhadas]

I was thinking the same thing.

I too am using GIK acoustic panels, and the difference in sound quality is truly amazing!

[Eddie Horton]

A six grand front stage, not even counting the Conquest and quad pack of MBM's. Good gracious, that's crazy cool.

[Eddie Horton]

One more question, Ron or Dave F. If my math is correct, doesn't a stack of four give you about 12dB more max output versus a single speaker? If so, and if a single speaker would easily give you 93dB at the listening position without any audible distortion, then the stacks would give you Dolby ref level sound without strain. What awesome dynamics.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Watching hairspray right now 7.1 DTS-MA, and no, the center doesnt block the TV! Photographic illusionery at work...

Dynamics and headroom galore. I finally need to turn it down! In all seriousness, the system is righteous. It can do in a whisper what used to take a shout. Power and grace lives here.

[Quinn]

I'm not seeing any pix. Where are they?

[Mr.Lawrence]

OK! That explains a lot. No wonder there weren't any Sierra-1 in Piano Black in stock when I originally placed my order. I should have placed my order with you. ;)

I would love to hear your system. I'll bet it sounds incredible. BTW, do you have a money making machine??? :D

[curtis]

I'm not seeing any pix. Where are they?http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/shiela-01.jpg

[GirgleMirt]

Wow crazy! :eek: Nice pic and setup!!!

Nice that four speakers retain the 8 ohms :) What is it, 2 parallel speakers in parallel?

Could you do 3 series of 3 in parallel for a tower of 9 speakers at 8 ohms? At less than 10000$ for a pair, who wouldn't do it! Though maybe you'd get a volume discount at that price! hehehe

[Eddie Horton]

Dave F., I'd like to hear what you think of this setup. Have you, yourself tried it? What are it's strengths and weaknesses, etc.?

[jvillas]

I think the hook-up is in series,rather than parallel. As far as I know that is how to keep the 8 ohm rating. If I am correct there is a drop in voltage.

I am delighted to see a stacked configuration. Awesome!

I run my speakers stacked (parallel hook-up) in both my 2 channel setups.
Never tried a triple or a quad set-up. Though I have heard triple Large Advents years ago.

Running Stacked for me thats the way to go.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Here's my in room FR for each channel as measured and calibrated by Audyssey MultEQ XT. It is averaged from 8 positions. Despite Integra's implementation not allowing for a "flat" curve. To me, the high frequency roll off seen here does not impact the HT experience. For music, I used to listen exclusively in Direct mode for SACD/DVD-A. With the new front stage, Audyssey finally sounds better for music when using a THX mode that does not roll off the top end.

Dave knows what it sounds like because he ran the full gamut of tests and measurements to determine its feasibility and wouldn't let these out if it didn't pass his stringent standard of quality and performance. For me, there was no gamble - I trust Dave. He said it would be incredible. I am finding out that he was speaking conservatively.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

I hope Dave will chime in, but here's something I held back and did not include with the hints dropped last week:


4 horizontally stacked Sierra-1 proved to be quite impressive. They must be wired up in a specific manner to maintain impedance, but this is simple. In fact, to my surprise, nothing about their performance is compromised but you gain lower distortion, greatly increased dynamic capabilities and all the output that even you could want ;)

As you can see, if I copied and pasted that word for word - there would not have been the great reveal and the ensuing dénouement which make forums so much fun.

[GirgleMirt]

I think the hook-up is in series,rather than parallel. As far as I know that is how to keep the 8 ohm rating.
Well 8 ohms rating of the Sierra is the impedance rating. wikipedia says:
The total impedance of any network of components can be calculated using the rules for combining impedances in series and parallel. The rules are identical to those used for combining resistances, although they require some familiarity with complex numbers."
So series should get added: 2 sierras in series would give 16 ohms, four 32 ohms. 4 ohms drivers are usually used for MTM speakers, in series, which results in the normal 8 ohms impedance. :) So to get 8 ohm should be 2 parallel speakers in parallel.

Anyway I'm never wired so many speakers together so am not totally sure if it would be the way, I'm also curious if the 9 speaker solution would be doable, or if something (crossovers?) wouldn't make it work...
:confused:

[davef]

Hi Guys,

The wiring was simple --

It is series-parallel. Each pair of the stack are wired in series, thus creating 2 16 ohm loads. The two 16 ohm loads were then wired in parallel, creating an 8 ohm load.

Ron, your measurements look good, lots of room gain down low but Audyssey cleared that right up. The high-frequency roll-off that you see might be the cinema-EQ or even the microphone. What mic are you using?

What is interesting about the measurements is that the frequency response closely matches the single speaker measurements before Audyssey, which is a good thing. In addition, notice the dip on the single speakers (surrounds) at the 180Hz range -- this is floor bounce. With the stack, that dip is eliminated due to the having much tighter vertical dispersion (greatly reduced floor and ceiling bounce)

I will say, I am very impressed at the improvements the MultiEQ XT made to the subwoofer response. With regard to what I mentioned in the subwoofer thread -- this is the proper way to handle auto subwoofer room EQ.

In a room like Ron's and to meet his demands for output and impact, this was a very good solution!

[Mia & Lana's dad]

http://www.audyssey.com/installers/images/installerkitcontents.jpg

That's it right there, just hook everything up into the pre/pro, laptop and presto.

I had dialog with lead Audyssey Installer Services Supervisor as well as Chris Kyriakakis, Audyssey CTO - the high frequency roll off is definitely their defacto target curve tailored for HT/Movies, Cinema EQ on the nose. Not the mike. They tell me the unit supplied along with its calibrated preamp works like the $2500.00 Behringer.

[davef]

I had dialog with lead Audyssey Installer Services Supervisor as well as Chris Kyriakakis, Audyssey CTO - the high frequency roll off is definitely their defacto target curve tailored for HT/Movies, Cinema EQ on the nose.

Interesting, is there any way to bypass that option or input your own target curve? I am impressed with the results, but I don't like the idea of someone else telling me that I need to listen to my speakers with a high frequency roll-off. Personally, I find cinema-EQ a bit annoying -- I am not looking for reproduction that sounds the same as a theater, I want realism and accuracy all the way.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

There are three target curves to select from, I presume all Cinema EQ high frequency roll off:


Target 1 - small to medium (least amount of roll off

Target 2 - medium to large

Target 3 - Approximates 500 seat theater

Unfortunately one cannot tailor their preferred response for the time being.

The THX modes restore the top end but it isnt available for 2 channel without applying processing. I like THX Games with PLIIx for regular CD's.

[Mike^S]

You don't get an option for Auddyssey flat? I know the higher end Denons have that.

[davef]

Unfortunately one cannot tailor their preferred response for the time being.

Bummer... I am sure they will eventually offer the option.

[davef]

Dave F., I'd like to hear what you think of this setup. Have you, yourself tried it? What are it's strengths and weaknesses, etc.?

Hi Eddie,

I was impressed with the performance, better than I anticipated with regard to how a stack measured. Strengths would be tighter vertical dispersion (less reflections off floor and ceiling), massive output and dynamic capabilities and lower distortion. Weaknesses, obviously cost, combined with slightly reduced horizontal dispersion (not necessarily a bad thing if in a narrow room like Ron's) and the complication involved in proper wiring.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/shiela-02.jpg

[Mike^S]

Don't you live in LA? Curtis, we need to pay Shiela a visit. :D

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Yep, everyone is welcome. I'll enforce Curtis' rules so be prepared to clean and all that other torture he makes you do. haha. Just kidding.

I want better stands other than the MoPads on top of the subs. I would order some Sound Anchors if they didn't take 4 weeks to fabricate. I'll probably end up getting them anyways.

[curtis]

Don't you live in LA? Curtis, we need to pay Shiela a visit. :D
Mike...I actually think he lives real close to you. You can probably hear his HT from your place. :)

[curtis]

I'll enforce Curtis' rules so be prepared to clean.....
Hey....that's a good idea!! :D

[drewface]

sweet jeebus, that is gorgeous!

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Hey guys, how would one describe an enveloping soundstage in terms of depth and imaging all around you. Behind the artist, left, right, up, down, front and then back again.

2-channel does this now. Crazy.

[Mr.Lawrence]

What color is the fabric covering the acoustic panels on your ceiling? That pattern looks the same as the fabric covering the panels in my office cubicle.

Hmm, I wonder if my office mate would notice if a few of her panels were missing??? :D;)

[Mia & Lana's dad]

That's Guilford of Maine Timberline Twig. It's an option offered by GIK Acoustics.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Got some clarification from Audyssey on the Integra/Onkyo implementation of the flat curve:



Audyssey: Onkyo decided to automatically switch to the Audyssey Flat curve when you turn on THX and switch to the Audyssey curve (with HF roll-off) when you turn off THX. This was not our decision... So you can only get Flat with THX turned on. If you want Flat for (2-ch) music then you will have to take measures similar to what you describe below. A 2 dB treble boost should get you very close.

me: Is there a possibility of getting a flat curve without the high end roll off? I read that THX modes do this for multichannel on the Integra, and that adjusting treble tone control about +2db would help for stereo music. I really would like to graph a flat response though.



http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/MLdad_MultEQ-Pro-06202008.gif

Also, repositioned the subs around and got a flatter response although it is about 2db hot up to 100hz. I rearranged the mains slightly and saw some improvement there too. I'm just splitting hairs now while waiting for my sound anchors. My wife was dusting today and she disrupted the previous front stage configuration, so of course I had to redo everything better than before! :)

Curtis, I ordered Wei Li Red Cliff Capriccio K2 HD CD from Acoustic sounds. Should be here tomorrow along with a few other must have SACD's.

[curtis]

Curtis, I ordered Wei Li Red Cliff Capriccio K2 HD CD from Acoustic sounds. Should be here tomorrow along with a few other must have SACD's.
Good stuff...pretty "ethnic" though....will be interesting to read what you think. My Father liked it a lot, and played it for a friend that plays the guzheng.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

I'll have an ancestral appreciation for it because I have some Chinese blood too somewhere along the family tree on my father's side several generations back.

[Maniac_Matt85]

Sir,

That is an amazing set-up.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Good stuff...pretty "ethnic" though....will be interesting to read what you think.

Beautiful music, conveying the story behind each track. Pacing is perfectly timed and evokes the appropriate emotion. Rhythmically complex and harmonious throughout, the skill and talent required to command the guzheng with precision and fluidity is a wonder to behold. This K2 HDCD recording captures Wei Li's performance faithfully and rivals resolution once reserved for only the best SACD's played on my system.

The guzheng solo isolates the artist and his instrument so that they may be experienced as one. This opens the door to hearing vast subtleties in tone and inflection even without any voices present. This is accomplished through intricate percussion where sometimes the initial pluck can be distinguished in advance of the ensuing note or chord. The versatility and range this instrument is capable of producing is limited only by the one playing it. Astounding and dynamic, fast and full - the guzheng will certainly entrance and reward its listener with sweet sounds.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

SHIELA update:

Movies - Intelligibility and dialog has improved exponentially! I'm talking serious chills that never fail to make me sit up and say wow, listen to THAT!

Multichannel Music (as well as movies/concerts with lossless soundtracks) - again, the center array really shines and commands attention while the L&R array's complete an enormous wall of sound. The new experience is total immersion. Whatever is played through the system has something I've never heard before and that is the sense of being pulled into the song so dramatically, as if the artist's voice and instruments were charging the room with its own gravitational field.

2-channel music - Expounding on the new phenomena, center vocal/instrumental imaging is the strongest I've ever experienced. It is downright spine tingling. I had no idea that the arrays would drastically improve depth and separation. The stereo field is powerfully anchored and with excellent recordings, gives multichannel a run for its money - the arrays are really _that_ good. After reading around the forums, I had to pick up the following CD's: Jesse Cook - Frontiers and Madeleine Peyroux - Careless Love. These two really highlight what I've been trying to describe. There isn't just a window into the music anymore, but a holographic gateway that invites you to escape. As I tried to convey to Dave on the phone earlier today, it is scary good.


And now for the next round of upgrades.....



http://wyred4sound.com/sitebuilder/images/IC_MONO_2_001-402x224.jpg

http://wyred4sound.com/sitebuilder/images/IC_MONO_2_007-398x181.jpg

http://wyred4sound.com/sitebuilder/images/IC_MONO_2_003-190x99.jpg

http://wyred4sound.com/sitebuilder/images/IC_MONO_2_004-172x101.jpg



I have three of these scheduled to arrive tomorrow to power the SHIELA-LCR front stage! They are the wyred4sound ICE Cube SX-1000 power amplifiers. Rick Cullen of Cullen Circuits was very accommodating and provided all the information I needed to decide in favor of mono's vs. a multi-channel single chassis unit. I have to admit though, before calling him, I was pretty set on dedicated amps for the divine triplets wanting to try something different. I will still keep the NAD M25 for the 4-channels of surround (for the time being, haha).

[curtis]

Cool! Now we have to find out if the Wyred4sound doctored modules sound any different than my undoctored modules.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Sure Curtis! I'm just going through the w4s thread on avs and some say the ice amp modules need 400 hours of break-in? Did you find this to be true?

[curtis]

Sure Curtis! I'm just going through the w4s thread on avs and some say the ice amp modules need 400 hours of break-in? Did you find this to be true?
I can't really say I noticed any break-in.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Cool! Now we have to find out if the Wyred4sound doctored modules sound any different than my undoctored modules.

Right, I found a post by EJ Sarmento on avs about their implementation:


There are many sonic differences between our amplifier and the D-SONIC. The main reasons are held within our direct-coupled, balanced, dual FET input stage (input buffer). Not only does this raise the input impedance to 61.9K ohms which allows source equipment to easily and accurately drive the amplifier.

The standard ICE modules which are found in the D-SONIC amplifiers have 8K ohms on the positive input and 10K ohms on the negative input to the ICE amp. So if you’re using RCA’s for instance, your source would be driving an 8,000 ohm load which isn’t really bad, but much harder to drive than 61.9K ohms. The lower impedance your source has to drive, the more you will experience lower volume levels, and slightly higher distortion going into your amplifier. This normally changes the way a preamp can amplify the signal applied, thus giving you less than optimal sound.

Balanced amplifiers (differential, driven from + and – signals) have a much better performance when driven balanced, which ours does. All the parts you will find on our input buffer are of the best quality. We use Dale Rn55D copper leaded resistors, Wima, and MUSE audio grade capacitors, and a thick traced PCB to connect everything. Audio signal doesn’t sound as good through standard magnetic steel leaded resistors, and electrolytic capacitors.

Inside the FETs on all of our input buffers, there is a voltage to current conversion. This is where we get the sweeter sound. The way a FET works is the current that flows from the output (the drain to source current) is controlled by the voltage on the input (the gate). This has a softening effect that complements the slight brightness and edgy sound of the Class D amplifier. It tends to make everything softer, smoother, and accurate. Given that the function of the amplifier, our input stage (buffer) has unity gain (no gain produced), and is ultra transparent.

We also perform modifications to the modules in every amplifier to enhance its’ performance. We bypass critical input coupling caps to allow audio to freely flow through while still allowing for DC protection, and “beef-up” the servo (feedback) circuit for enhanced bottom-end extension. Every module is connected to the binding posts with 14AWG 99.9% OFC high strand pure copper paralleled with 14AWG high strand PURE silver wire.

One of my favorite benefits with this amplifier is the sound stage, and AWSOME imaging. If the imaging is correct, you should be able to listen to your speakers R/L, and not hear each one as being separate. Instead, they should blend together and sound like one, half way between the two. Sound stage depths are also much more prominent. You should be able to hear differences vertically, horizontally, and even depth (front to back). Your speakers would obviously have to be able to produce these as well, but nearly all hi-end loudspeakers should be able to produce such results.

Another option that our amplifier has over ALL the competition is the built in active crossovers. A good read for FYI knowledge would be http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm. This would mainly be used for the purpose of using our amplifier in a Bi-amp or Tri-amp set-up, which GREATLY improves sound quality. NO OTHER AMPLIFIER OFFERS THIS FEATURE, to my knowledge.

There many benefits on using our built-in active crossovers from passive crossovers, even on speakers that already have built-in crossovers. Unfortunately, I must post that in another post to keep this one from taking the complete page.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com

[Mia & Lana's dad]

I can't really say I noticed any break-in.

I found a little more info regarding "uptime" getting them up to operating temps said to sound their best vs. being off for awhile.

[curtis]

Coming from a family of engineers.....my Dad and three uncles (Mom's brothers), I always find it interesting when someone takes a highly engineered product and claims to improve it. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

Conversations among my Dad and uncles were often interesting to me, and very boring to others in the family.....I bet something like this would stir a great conversation among my two uncles with EE degrees (one of them loves the classic 340's at my Parents'). :)

[Mia & Lana's dad]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/MLdad_MultEQ-Pro-06272008.gif

just finished installing and recalibrating the system with the new mono's in place. As of 8:00pm tonight, the amps are in full effect and have made a measurable difference as evidenced by the level trims required compared to what they were previously with the M25 formerly powering the front 3 channels. Subjectively, I am confirming what everyone else before me has stated about ICE power. I've only played a few familiar tracks so far but they've opened up more with new levels of transparency, imaging, depth and detail. I really didn't know what to expect but I immediately heard a difference compared to the only amp I've experienced in my room to date. The M25 sound quality is superb at 160wpc but it fatally clipped a couple times in my early days with the Sierra's due to my insatiable desire for playing them too loud for its own good. For those that have followed my follies, you're familiar with the insanity that plagues me. I'm pleased to report that I feel that the fever has broken for the time being and these new amps are exactly what the doctor ordered. The Wyred4Sound SX-1000's are truly ICE-ing on the cake.

[curtis]

You can't judge by the trim levels the relative power between the two amps because the gain levels of the amps can be different.

Compared to your M25, I am sure your system is now more capable of louder and cleaner output.

Do your neighbors like you? :D

[Mia & Lana's dad]

understood, I have observed that audyssey pings are a fixed value and gains/levels are ignored when in calibration mode. The response is measured and derives trim levels to match all channels in addition to the EQ'd response. Audyssey techs confirmed this when I inquired as to what I suspected going on. So, with nothing else changed in the system, the L/C/R trims are now 4-5db lower with the SX-1000's vs. M25 as set by Audyssey. Whether or not my interpretation of the data is correct, that is what I have to report as a before/after.

When the windows are shut the sound is pretty well contained. I haven't had any complaints so far from the neighbors.

[curtis]

At the levels you use for listening, I am sure you are experiencing MUCH improved dynamics with the new power driving the speakers.

I'm just waiting for you to get ICE all the way around. :)

[Mia & Lana's dad]

I'm too predictable, aren't I..

[Jonnyozero3]

Man, how did I miss this thread?

Awesome setup.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Just had the pleasure of having three fellow Sierra owners over to experience the current setup. Thanks for the visit guys!

[curtis]

Very impressive listening session...thanks for having us over.

Dave.....I think the two of you are on to something with those stacked Sierras!

[mziegler]

That visit was a blast--we need to sample more there.

I felt like I needed a cigarette after WOTW.

[davef]

Just had the pleasure of having three fellow Sierra owners over to experience the current setup. Thanks for the visit guys!

So sorry I missed this! Was out running errands for most of the day :(

Ron, got your message late and thanks for the invite. Sounds like it was a great time!

[sivadselim]

So..................

What is the package deal price for the 12 Sierra centers? :)

[Jonnyozero3]

So sorry I missed this! Was out running errands for most of the day :(

Ron, got your message late and thanks for the invite. Sounds like it was a great time!

Hey Dave,

I got into a discussion over on Hsu's forum about this stacked Sierra config. I saw in post #73 you mentioned the strengths and weaknesses of the setup, but didn't mention anything either way about lobing or combing. Are those an issue at all with the Sierra's running in such a manner? Or does the crossover work essentially make that a nil consideration? Just curious :cool:

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Look that guy was very condescending. I bit my tongue over there, but I won't stand for that crap if he continues.

[Jonnyozero3]

Yeah, he doesn't phrase things well. :( I was being nice.

That said, i'm still curious if there is a tradeoff with lobing or combing. Please DON'T get me wrong - not trying to poop in any cheerios or anything, just want to get a full picture. Personally, as soon as I saw this, I started considering using four-some's of sierra's up front :) I just like to have as much info as possible. Personally, from dave f's comments, and your responses, I'm guessing that the benefits far outweigh the tradeoff's, if any.

So, my pardons if I was being too accomodating to him, but curiousity got the best of me. And I respect your restraint. For what it's worth, it was noted on my part immediately...

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Patronizing while hiding behind a politically correct post is not constructive and sends mixed messages. He just came across very closed minded and elitist to me. Instead, asking questions to open discussion even if one is set in their ways on a subject would've been a better approach than the insulting path he took. Or perhaps give placement suggestions to explore and demonstrate the "physics which cannot be deceived."

[davef]

So..................

What is the package deal price for the 12 Sierra centers? :)

If you are serious, send me an email and we can discuss your requirements and expectations (whether the stacked array of Sierra-1 are the right solution for you).


Hey Dave,

I got into a discussion over on Hsu's forum about this stacked Sierra config. I saw in post #73 you mentioned the strengths and weaknesses of the setup, but didn't mention anything either way about lobing or combing. Are those an issue at all with the Sierra's running in such a manner? Or does the crossover work essentially make that a nil consideration? Just curious :cool:

Hi Jon,

Like all things audio, every design is a compromise at some point. I read that *post* over at Hsu's and it is what I like to call a half-truth. Due to a general lack of knowledge, lobing has gotten a bad rap - seems it is always associated with being a bad thing which is only 50% correct. Vertical lobing is a good thing, it is what makes MTM speakers so popular and so successful in the marketplace. A large vertical lobe decreases vertical dispersion which diminishes the effect of ceiling and floor bounce, reducing reverberation which increases intelligibility. (see Ron's un-EQ'd measurements and notice the reduction in the dip at 180Hz as compared to the single speaker measurements, this is floor bounce) Intelligibility of a loudspeaker can be thought of as a ratio between the direct sound of a loudspeaker and the background noise in a room. The less background noise, the more clarity. Same general principle as acoustically treating a room.

Ron's setup should be considered a vertical line array, quite common in the loudspeaker industry and even more common in sound reinforcement applications. The taller the array, the more limited the vertical dispersion becomes. Provided the listener is within the lobe (listening height is not above or below the column), vertical lobing is beneficial. Vertical line arrays also project sound a bit differently than a conventional loudspeaker, with the rate of SPL decrease with reference to distance being about half that of a conventional loudspeaker. For example, at 2 meters away with the same voltage level, the line array will sound louder and cleaner.

In addition to the advantages as described above, there will be major improvements with regards to distortion, headroom capability and dynamics.

Are there disadvantages? Certainly -- if not seated within the vertical lobe clarity will be diminished rather than enhanced. Horizontal dispersion is slightly reduced but this would only become a problem if seated at an off-axis angle of 20 degrees or greater from either stack. In addition, this type of setup is not recommended for extreme near field listening or extreme far field listening where there can be frequency response changes.

Due to the unique phase integration of the woofer and tweeter, which closely emulates single point source radiation up to about 20-25 degrees, the Sierra-1 works exceptionally well in this particular application, far better than our other products.

Ron's requirements were unique... He loves the sound of the Sierra-1 but desired more. His primary requirement was that he wanted the ability for extremely high sound pressure levels while maintaining clarity (a serious problem for many rooms as room effects before more pronounced at higher levels). In addition, Ron seldom listens off-axis and never in the near field. He has acoustic room treatments on the front, rear and side walls but he has a wooden floor and I don't believe the ceiling is treated, thus limiting vertical dispersion became high priority. Considering all of these factors and after many discussions about the pro's and con's, only then did I begin running various tests of the stack. To my surprise, and as I mentioned before, the stack actually far exceeded my expectations.

In addition, the type of line array offers benefits over a typical multi-driver line array.

1. Each woofer is in its own dedicated and damped enclosure. There are no modulation effects between woofers because they do not share the same cabinet volume.

2. Considering all of the individual enclosures and the fact that each of these enclosures are laminated bamboo, cabinet resonance and energy loss will be dramatically less than a typical floor standing line array -- I would wager less cabinet resonance than nearly any floor standing loudspeaker on the market.

3. There are multiple crossovers being used. A typical line array uses a single crossover for all of the driver elements (each driver being directly connected to the same crossover output). With multiple crossovers; saturation effects, distortion and heat are dramatically reduced due to current being equally distributed between all of the crossovers as opposed to a single crossover network. At extreme listening levels (high current) this becomes a tremendous advantage.

Some people who read this thread will see this as a gimmick or even a juvenile attempt to sell a lot of loudspeakers. Nothing could be further from the truth. Ron's solution is what defines acoustic engineering, designing a sound system that meets or exceeds the challenges set forth... With that in mind and from the various comments I have received from those lucky enough to experience it in person, expectations and requirements have been met :D



Look that guy was very condescending. I bit my tongue over there, but I won't stand for that crap if he continues.

Agreed, I say invite him over for a listen ;)


Patronizing while hiding behind a politically correct post is not constructive and sends mixed messages. He just came across very closed minded and elitist to me. Instead, asking questions to open discussion even if one is set in their ways on a subject would've been a better approach than the insulting path he took. Or perhaps give placement suggestions to explore and demonstrate the "physics which cannot be deceived."

Loved that statement, "physics which cannot be deceived". Nobody is trying to deceive physics, quite the opposite actually. I strongly suggest this person do a little research on antenna theory and wave propagation, the actual "physics" of which is well documented...

[GirgleMirt]

Interesting! Thanks for the insight! :)

Btw, in case some are curious, the comments answered were here (http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=6557) (search baron).

[Jonnyozero3]

Dave, that was a superbly detailed response. Much appreciated :) I can't muster more of a response than a "thanks" to that. lol :D

[Mia & Lana's dad]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/shiela-04-ULS-15.jpg

new config!

The new sound anchor stands are awesome. Dead, extremely inert and most important of all - stable & secure! Tremendous upgrade over the mopads on the subs hahahaha. I think they look good too. Dave helped me spec out the proper height for these so that ear position would be at the center of the array. Thanks Dave... you gotta come over now!

oh, here's the latest plot...


http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/latest-complete-FR-07252008.gif

[Blake1214]

Hi Ron,

I no longer see the MBM-12's in your setup. May I ask what you did with them?

Thx.

Blake

[Mia & Lana's dad]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/Sierra-1-MBM-12-rear-stage.jpg

They're in the rear stage now!

[Blake1214]

I feel the bass just by looking at the pictures

you are one S-I-C-K man.......

[buddhadas]

Hi Ron,

If I remember correctly didn't you say you are using GIK acoustic panels? if so, how many are you using? I'm using 14 panels including the corner traps, it looks in your pics like you have 3 times that many!
Have they helped the sound in your space? I know that in my room, the change is dramatically better.

Thanks,

Jim

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Yes, let's see:

Tri-Traps x 4

244 x 2

242 Elite x 6

242 x 9

So that's 21 total. Acoustic treatment is like the Army where it lets your system be all that it can be!

[Blake1214]

Hi Ron,

I'm getting some specs together for Dave to see if I can stack 2 Sierras and how that will effect the sound. I feel my current setup is still lacking some bass and I'm really digging the idea of using 2 subwoofers as my front monitor stand as I will not have room in my room to place 2 subs similar to your old configuration. Was there any drawbacks at all when you had your Sierras on the MBM-12's? Any type of shaking, rattling, or resonance at all? I will however be using either dual ULS-15's or dual PB-13's.

Blake

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Unfortunately, I don't believe stacking two will present the correct ohm load.

The mopads on top of the MBM's were temporary but did okay with a single Sierra. After stacking four, it was not very stable. During demos, when they were atop the ULS-15's they would move around slightly but not very much. The height is what made me nervous, coupled with the woofer side weight bias - the array tends to lean in that direction without a solid platform.

[Mike^S]

Hey Ron, this is xcjago from avsforums. How's it going? Are you still planning on getting 4 more ULS-15s? What are you going to do with the conquest? I think we need to have another listening session soon. :D I'm also curious to see how a single ULS-15 compares to my JL F112.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

yep and unsure what will become of the Conquest. It's just sitting outside the main area. You're welcome anytime, just give me a head's up.

[curtis]

Mike...maybe you could bring over your F112 to compare. :)

[Blake1214]

Unfortunately, I don't believe stacking two will present the correct ohm load.

The mopads on top of the MBM's were temporary but did okay with a single Sierra. After stacking four, it was not very stable. During demos, when they were atop the ULS-15's they would move around slightly but not very much. The height is what made me nervous, coupled with the woofer side weight bias - the array tends to lean in that direction without a solid platform.

how about just having 1 Sierra sitting vertically on top of the ULS-15? Did that create any problems?

[Mia & Lana's dad]

Nope that was okay.

[Mike^S]

Mike...maybe you could bring over your F112 to compare. :)

Yep, that's what I was thinking. It would be nice to take some output measurements just to see what a single ULS is capable of.

[Mia & Lana's dad]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/rear-floor-quad-placements-vs-singl.gif


my room is tough to get clean max output readings due to feedback... I was able to produce this graph though - Quads vs. Single at typical calibrated levels, no EQ - right rear corner - mic placed at center channel. This was back when I was trying to figure out the 12.5hz suckout.

[mrsollars]

what are the subs sitting on???
link???

thanks
matt

[Mia & Lana's dad]

In the front, the bottom ULS-15's have spikes with Sound Anchor cone coasters. The top ULS-15's have felt pads at four corners with earthquake clear gel in the center to keep it snug in place. The rear MBM-12's are on auralex gramma's.

The latest pic of the front stage was shot prior to leveling the ULS-15 spike height, temporarily using gramma's while waiting for the cone coasters to arrive. I've since fixed the leaning subs as depicted.

[mrsollars]

is there any chance that earthquake gel would have any adverse or long term effects if you used them on the Sierra's piano finish??

also....can you link me to the gel you used....i can't seem to find it.

thanks
matt

[Mia & Lana's dad]

I got it at a local Lowe's hardware store, but did a quick search to see where you can get it online:

http://www.safetystore.com/Quakehold-Museum-Gel-Tev22111.htm

I've removed and reinstalled it several times and comes off completely.

[scape]

my room is tough to get clean max output readings due to feedback... I was able to produce this graph though - Quads vs. Single at typical calibrated levels, no EQ - right rear corner - mic placed at center channel. This was back when I was trying to figure out the 12.5hz suckout.

how do you plan on cleaning up the room resonance at 30-40hz? can you play with an eq and level that out? I imagine you probably have a receiver with audyssey/room-correction features...

that's some crazy gel! does it work on non-glass products? smooth surface of say a plastic or metal for adhesion to a smoothly painted wall, or is it just glass-glass?

[Mia & Lana's dad]

keep reading, that's a pretty old post. I've since rearranged subs multiple times as well as recruiting a DEQ2496 to fine tune spots I wasn't satisfied with post Audyssey calibration. I have posted more sub related updates on AVS if you want to check it out in the "new HSU flat to 10hz" thread.

I opted for the gel because it was transparent. It works fine between the satin painted finish of the subs.

[griplimited]

Wow, just wow. Was doing research and stumbled upon Sheila. Amazing setup. Over a decade and half later, how's the setup today?

[racrawford65]

Really? Bumping a 15 year old thread..

[AudioFreedom]

Really? Bumping a 15 year old thread..
Really?
What?
I see nothing wrong with bumping this 15 years old thread.
This thread is extremely interesting and very informative.
Are there rules against bumping 15 years old threads. :confused:
How old is too old in your opinion? lol

I'm glad that this thread was bumped.
Great reading.

[racrawford65]

Not this forum, but most as not to bump old threads, particularly with new posts that don’t add value to the previous discussion, as a courtesy. Some forums lock after 30 days, as a rule. These threads are kept on the forums and can be read for reference.

[AudioFreedom]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll147/MLdad/AVS/shiela-01.jpg

Absolute audio insanity, lol
Wonder what happened with Ron.
I see that His last post here was on:
Join Date 12-13-2007
Last Activity 03-01-2015, 09:21 PM

Wonder if Ron upgraded his stacked Sierras to the latest versions created by Dave?

This is such a great and entertaining thread.
Why would somebody be butthurt that it was bumped, is beyond me. Lol
Jealousy perhaps...lol, yes, it takes few coins to fulfill such a wild audio fantasy...so what!
Good on Ron that he was in that financial position, and good on Ron to push the boundaries...and for Dave to make audio performance dreams come true...

My other wonder is this:
What happened here with this post, that was obviously deleted.
Who was that poster??

But from reading few of the responses it was an obviously some butthurt poster, perhaps jealous that Ron had the coin to reach for the audio performance stars...

griplimited, BE BLESSED FOR BUMPING THIS THREAD...LOL
Ignore the stiff neck haters.
Without you griplimited, I would probably never had a chance to read a story about such an entertaining speaker adventure, taken by Ron.
(judging by the number of clicks that this thread got recently, I'm sure that there are many others who got introduced to this bumped thread).
But perhaps they got scared to post in it for the chance of being...bullied.


Look that guy was very condescending. I bit my tongue over there, but I won't stand for that crap if he continues.


Yeah, he doesn't phrase things well. :( I was being nice.

That said, i'm still curious if there is a tradeoff with lobing or combing. Please DON'T get me wrong - not trying to poop in any cheerios or anything, just want to get a full picture. Personally, as soon as I saw this, I started considering using four-some's of sierra's up front :) I just like to have as much info as possible. Personally, from dave f's comments, and your responses, I'm guessing that the benefits far outweigh the tradeoff's, if any.

So, my pardons if I was being too accomodating to him, but curiousity got the best of me. And I respect your restraint. For what it's worth, it was noted on my part immediately...



Patronizing while hiding behind a politically correct post is not constructive and sends mixed messages. He just came across very closed minded and elitist to me. Instead, asking questions to open discussion even if one is set in their ways on a subject would've been a better approach than the insulting path he took. Or perhaps give placement suggestions to explore and demonstrate the "physics which cannot be deceived."


2676

2677

[curtis]

Wow...old thread. A few of us have been in Ron's room. His home is actually in the neighborhood my family lived in when I was in elementary and junior high. Definitely crazy setup.

Not long after all this I know he started downsizing the system. I know he sold a couple of the Hsu subs.

[griplimited]

Thanks AudioFreedom! Long time Ascend user here, just never been active. I was hunting if there was a way to use multiple speakers and came across Ron's. I threw the idea out of my head though lol. Glad to hear some of you guys got to experience it.

[davef]

I completely forgot about this system, wow - it has been that long. I now fondly recall making the wiring diagram so Ron could properly connect them without dropping impedance to near zero. It was complicated but 100% successful :)

Great memories!!!