What the heck is happening with Subwoofers?

[FirstReflect]

Dave? Curtis? Anyone?!

I gotta know! Is Ascend developing their own subwoofer(s)?

I expect great things from Ascend, so if they're venturing into subs, that's something to get REALLY excited about! Could Ascend outdo SVS, HSU and others?

Is it a collaboration? Ascend and HSU have been very close in the past. Perhaps specially made version from HSU to match the finishes of the Sierra-1? Is it something like that?!

Please please pretty please let us know!

Jon

[ebh]

$5 says the answer is, we're working on it, have patience. ;)

[drewface]

i'd like to know, too. or at least some indication on when we'll be hearing more.

[Quinn]

i'd like to know, too. or at least some indication on when we'll be hearing more.

The Sierra 1 wasn't announced until it was nearly ready to ship.

[curtis]

Curtis?

I know nothing more than what has been posted.

But I can speculate with the best of them. If/when Ascend announces a subwoofer, I bet it will go after sound quality rather than output.

[FirstReflect]

Well I'll tell you what I'd absolutely love! I'd love to see a sub that addresses cabinet resonance. I have the utmost respect for HSU and SVS, but to be perfectly honest, I've never been 100% satisfied with the cabinet resonance produced by any sub I've heard, no matter how well it is braced!

To date, SVS's cylinder subs have actually been the best I've heard in this regard. A testiment to the simple choice of using a superior geometric shape in this particular facet. But there is still a problem with them not being massive enough to truly be inert.

Now, I've never heard a Wilson sub. I'm thinking their use of composite and alloy materials may allow their subs to be as close to inert cabinets as possible. But the reason I've never heard a Wilson sub is because the cost is WAY beyond something I would ever consider :p

So it just so happens that Ascend comes along and introduces a new speaker that touts having an extremely inert cabinet :cool:

Now, I don't know if laminated bamboo would work equally well in creating an inert subwoofer cabinet. The extreme low frequencies may cause even laminated bamboo to resonate. But how about a laminated bamboo cylinder? :eek:

Long and short of it - the Sierra-1's have really got me thinking about the possiblities for a subwoofer with extremely low cabinet resonance and an extremely inert cabinet design. Given the focus paid to this particular area in the Sierra-1's design, it seems like a possibility is all :D

I'm all the more excited at the possibility because it might actually be something I could afford! From any other company, I would expect a price so high that I would be stuck with compromising on my true desires. But time and again, Ascend introduces products at prices that are actually below what I expect them to be.

The Sierra-1's are a smash. I haven't heard sales figures yet, but I've got to think they're going to be very high numbers. The Sierra-1's deserve - nay, demand a sub to match their superior design!

Just imagine, that same sort of clarity, accuracy and complete freedom from coloration or distortion, but at the very lowest frequencies where such things are so often overlooked in favor of raw output. O, the thought of true, flawless deep deep bass reproduction without the distortion of seemingly unavoidable cabinet resonance.

Can you tell that I want this? :p

Jon

[Quinn]

So it just so happens that Ascend comes along and introduces a new speaker that touts having an extremely inert cabinet :cool:

Now, I don't know if laminated bamboo would work equally well in creating an inert subwoofer cabinet. The extreme low frequencies may cause even laminated bamboo to resonate.

Review the Sierra cabinet resonance graph(CSD) in the 1st post about the Sierra' cabinet. There is no cabinet resonance below 150Hz in that graph. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showpost.php?p=22500&postcount=1

[curtis]

You have to take into account the size of the panels.

[FirstReflect]

I'm not really sure, but I think what we're seeing in those graphs is the spectral decay that occurs after the initial impulse from a 2 kHz signal. Regular MDF shows some manner of resonant mode activity way down to below 30 Hz, while the V-LAM cabinet has a blip at around 200 Hz (which would make perfect sense from a 2 kHz fundamental tone) and then virtually nothing else.

this bodes extremely well, but it doesn't mean there is no resonance what-so-ever with, say a 20 Hz fundamental tone. In general, you get harmonics with a very low fundamental tone, so it would be very interesting to see how the V-LAM cabinets respond to initial bass frequency impulses.

I'm just picturing a rather stout little V-LAM cylinder. With a very high excursion driver - one with high mass, but rapid response and a large surface area - mated to an extremely powerful amp, the need for a very long port can be somewhat reduced.

In the case of the SVS cylinder subs, the shorter versions, like the 25-31 actually have the cleanest and the most output, but they sacrifice the extremely low frequencies below 25Hz since most of that bass comes out of the ports, rather than directly from the driver itself. The longer effective port area of the taller cylinders gives greater extension to the extremely low frequencies, but this is literally like the effect of speaking into a long rolled tube! You get the increased extension, but you can also end up with a whole bunch of reverberation effects as well.

So to me, a shorter, rigid cylinder would be nearly ideal if you could produce the lowest frequencies with raw power from the driver itself. It seems to me that doing so would create a rather "violent" shaking phenomenon and I actually suspect that this becomes an issue in some designs. For example, the SVS subwoofer drivers themselves could likely respond to more than the 525 Watts of power that is fed to them in the SVS design. But even with a bottom mounted driver and a base plate, the SVS subs still shake when playing really loud. Again, the shorter subs do better than the tall ones, but I suspect there are limits being put in place for the sake of not shaking the poor little cylinder to death! :p

But what would happen with a really inert, really heavy cabinet? Could a V-LAM cylinder be made that would allow for more forceful woofer movement?

I'm just speculating that a whole bunch of possibilities open up with this design. A rather short (say 30") tall cylinder made of V-LAM with an especially heavy bottom could allow for a ridiculously powerful woofer and amp. The end result is a sub with extremely low resonance, extremely low reverberation, extremely high output and excellent extension without having to resort to an exceptionally long port.

Can I have all that? Pretty please? :D

Jon

[Mike^S]

I think that manufacturing a VLAM cylinder subwoofer would be very expensive. You would probably be looking at around $3,000 or more selling price. Have you ever listened to the JL Fathoms? They have a very well braced and solid cabinet with an extremely high performing driver. The F112 is less than half the size of the VTF-3 HO and weighs 115lbs.

[FirstReflect]

$3000 for a V-LAM cylinder sub from Ascend? You know what I would say to that?

"Screw you, budget! Bring on the debt!!" :D

And I would mean that since I would require a minimum of 2 for the purposes of producing smooth bass response for all the seats in my theater - preferably 4 :eek: :p

In all seriousness though, I do wonder what it would cost. From a construction standpoint, each vertical bamboo "slice" could actually be a wedge shape rather than rectangular. That way, as they are laminated together, they will naturally form an arc - and an incredibly strong, rigid and inert cylinder when complete!

I haven't had the pleasure to hear the JL Fathom subs for myself yet. I would like to. There is the whole matter that nothing can overcome basic physics: a larger enclosure with longer ports will simply produce more and deeper bass. But the JL Fathoms do pretty much what I talked about in their design in order to make a smaller enclosure that can still play loud and deep. That is, to make them very massive and then put an extremely high excursion driver in there with a ton of power :cool:

What I'm talking about with a V-LAM cylinder sub though is a sub that takes that kind of excursion and power and then sticks it into a full sized enclosure! When I mentioned a "stout" cylinder, I'm still talking about a 30" tall, 16-18" diameter enclosure. It's smaller than some of the other cylinder subs, but it's still considerably bigger than something like the JL Fathom.

To me, it's always been the compromise - lower power and less excursion but in a big case with a long port and let the physics of the enclosure do the work; or, extremely high power and extremely long excursion but in a small enclosure with a relatively short port - mostly for asthetic reasons - and get around the less than ideal physics with brute force.

I say, why not have the best of both worlds? Extremely high power and long excursion in a full sized enclosure with a full sized, but not overly extended port?

The Sierra-1's a meant to shake up the speaker world. Dave F. said it himself that he'd like to continue to innovate and inspire the rest of the audio community. We've grown accustomed to the "or" approach to subwoofers. So much so that we basically just take it for granted. I say, why not shake up the subwoofer world too? And show everyone out there that design doesn't have to be about compromise if you're willing to innovate and buck the trends of the status quo?

Jon