New Speaker Cables Now Shipping!

[davef]

I am very pleased to make this announcement. Many people have been asking us for a high quality - affordable, pre-terminated speaker cable...

Here it is :D

Through an exclusive arrangement and continuing with our tradition of offering the highest sound quality at affordable prices, we are pleased to announce that we are now offering true audiophile-quality Ultralink speaker cable. Available in pre-terminated lengths or 14 gauge 4 conductor by the foot. This cable is made in Canada and after a thorough performance evaluation; we are using it exclusively throughout our engineering facilities and auditioning systems.

I personally find the cable to be of excellent quality!

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/cable/matrixspkr.html

Enjoy!

[DavidD]

Sounds good. Just for consistency - your post says made in Canada and the link says made in the USA. I do like the ultra cool carrying case. :)

[curtis]

I was confused at first too.

The Ultralink is made in the USA, but if you click in the bulk cable....that is the 4-conductor wire and it is made in Canada.

The Ultralink is 12 gauge 2-conductor...I think.

[davef]

My Bad...

The pre-terminated cable is made in Canada and the bulk is made in the USA (close to our location)

I believe Ultralink will soon be manufacturing all the cable local to us..

I will fix the site and thanks for letting me know!

G'night!

[BradJudy]

The bulk looks like a good alternative to Canare star quad. I'll keep it in mind.

I'm not sure about the carrying case - I never have to carry cables anywhere and would rather save a buck or two. I've never heard a good justification for having 'signal flow direction' on speaker cables. At least they aren't adding $$$ onto the price for it. :)

[drewface]

i like the looks of the cable (the blue and black is sexy), but the way they are listed reminds me of all the stuff i've read saying cable is cable. i'd be interested to hear what dave or any of the more knowledgeable users on this board have to say about claims like "Advanced internal winding geometery [sic] for extended frequency response, increased dynamic range and greater clarity." (there's a typo there, too, you might want to clean up on the page)

i was sort of surprised to see that listed on ascend's page, seeing as how little marketing spin is applied to the speakers. i know the cable is made by a different company, but it's still surprising to see.

so, can someone (re?)educate me on how "winding geometry" or signal flow direction can actually make a difference in a cable?

[bikeman]

so, can someone (re?)educate me on how "winding geometry" or signal flow direction can actually make a difference in a cable?
"Single flow direction" is actually an economic term. It refers to the flow of a hobbyist capital once they buy into the myth and lore of their particular obsession. :D

David

[Dread Pirate Robert]

I'm not sure about the carrying case - I never have to carry cables anywhere and would rather save a buck or two. I've never heard a good justification for having 'signal flow direction' on speaker cables. At least they aren't adding $$$ onto the price for it. :)

Not that this is a big deal, and I'm sure the cables are of high quality, but this type of marketing does not make a good impression and seems out of line with that of Ascend Acoustics' own products. I'm sorry if I sound like a "wet blanket" here--I'm just trying to help. :)


i like the looks of the cable (the blue and black is sexy),

Yeah, it looks cool, and kind of like a two-headed snake! :)


but the way they are listed reminds me of all the stuff i've read saying cable is cable. i'd be interested to hear what dave or any of the more knowledgeable users on this board have to say about claims like "Advanced internal winding geometery [sic] for extended frequency response, increased dynamic range and greater clarity."

Unless this is in reference to the copper itself, it seems to be a fancy way of saying that each of the wires are individually insulated and twisted around one another--more succinctly, it's a twisted-pair cable. :) I don't claim to be very knowledgeable about audio, but I've always favored twisted-pair because it's an inexpensive way to cancel out much of the interference that a cable might pick up from its surroundings. Without this effect, the relatively inexpensive, unshielded Ethernet cable that people use with their computers nowadays (e.g. Cat-5e) would not work well at all, for example. That said, since most of the interference in a typical case would be at much higher frequencies than would be audible directly (e.g. in the GHz range for Ethernet), the true value of twisting the individual wires in a speaker cable is debatable, although it doesn't add much to the cost of the cable (depending on which one you buy) and provides some peace of mind for the conservative among us.

As for the benefits claimed by the manufacturer, I don't believe it personally, but would like to hear a convincing argument if there is one. It would seem that minimizing resistance and inductance by using thick enough conductor for the length required and not coiling the cable would be sufficient to achieve these benefits for all practical purposes in the home. It doesn't hurt to use exceptionally high quality cable for durability and peace of mind, but as long as one follows the most basic guidelines, speaker cable would seem to be the component that has the smallest effect on sound quality (with speakers themselves having the greatest effect, of course).


so, can someone (re?)educate me on how "winding geometry" or signal flow direction can actually make a difference in a cable?

The notion of signal flow direction is pretty funny, as the current flows in both directions in an alternating manner anyway. Even if that were not the case, I can't think of a physical reason for the distinction, either. Obviously, it's just a virtually free "feature" that does no harm yet has no meaning beyond pure marketing (and in my opinion has no place on this no-nonsense website with its no-nonsense speakers, but that's just me--delete the lines referring to this feature as well as some of the other hype, and it'll be fine).


"Single flow direction" is actually an economic term. It refers to the flow of a hobbyist capital once they buy into the myth and lore of their particular obsession. :D

Yeah, there are plenty of naked emperors in every hobby, but from what I've seen, audio might be the realm of the most exhibitionistic rulers of them all!

[davef]

Hi Guys,

We are offering pre-terminated cable because a very large percentage of our customers have requested it.

The "marketing" terms on the site are from Ultralink's marketing and, like everything else regarding cable; everyone has a rather strong opinion.

Would it be more beneficial if we just added the cable to our site and said "good looking, exceptionally well-made cable with high-quality gold plated binding posts"? Possibly - but quite doubtful.

The reality is this, I personally measured the inductance and capacitance of the cable and it was lower than anything else I have here in the factory for the same length pair. This is especially important when designing a loudspeaker to be accurate, if I am doing ground-plane measurements my cable runs are often in excess of 100ft.

The way a cable is wound and the manner in which it is twisted / braided does play an important role on both capacitance and inductance. A higher inductance cable will have more high-frequency loss, thus making a loudspeaker sound warmer, a higher capacitance cable will have more low-frequency loss thus resulting in a more detailed, perhaps brighter sound. These are the important factors regarding cable -- inductance and capacitance. (and cable manufacturers know this better than anyone, that is why some cables can and will sound different than others, because it is has been specifically designed to do so)

As far as signal flow goes, it is, perhaps, a meaningless feature and I am sure it is just there for marketing purposes. Please understand, a very large percentage of our customers are true audiophiles and many of them approve of such features.

I like the quality of the cable and I like the fact that it has very low capacitance and inductance, resulting in the lack of coloration, which, as you all know -- is everything to me.

We have, perhaps, 3-4 dozen equipment vendors approach us every year requesting that we evaluate and sell their products. Here is one that I found to be of high quality that we are selling at a very reasonable price and it meets my standards of performance (a rather difficult accomplishment)

Understand that we make very little $$ at the prices we are selling it for (it is really a matter of convenience) and if us selling this cable bothers you because of Ultralink's marketing (which we agreed to by becoming a distributor and is really no different than any other cable manufacturer's marketing) -- cool, I will dump the product.

We are not "pushing" the cable, nor is our site filled with promoting it -- it is there because many people requested the cable and we are marketing it as we agreed, using their terms.

We have sold Harman Kardon for years now (often selling a component at a loss) simply because our customer base liked the receivers. The marketing terms we use on the site for HK are the same as HK's, the marketing term's we use for Ultralink are Ultralink's -- These are not Ascend products, I have no control over manufacturer claims, whether I agree with them or not.

You guys know the deal and certainly know how to read between the lines and pass over marketing hyperbole, but unfortunately, this is what the audio cable industry has become. ( I should probably be very careful here… if you all know what I mean)

Selling some cable on our site for added convenience to many of our customers will NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER result in Ascend taking that kind of approach with our products…

[davef]

Here is a fun idea ---

You guys create the marketing copy for the cable page using at least some of Ultralink's terms / claims, watering it down perhaps just enough so it fits into your perception of everything my company represents...

All I ask is that you are serious about this and do not get *too* carried away. Remember, you are not the only one's reading this ;)

I will let you guys determine the "winner" and I will send him (her?) an Ascend baseball hat and have the site updated as we see fit.

Could be fun :D

[drewface]

thanks dave, that was a fantastic response. i had no doubt in my mind that the ultralink cable had excellent build quality, especially with your support behind it through selling it on this site. i also didn't mean to imply i thought the cable's marketing was horrible to see on this site, as i figured it was theirs and there was nothing you could do about it with your agreement. i was merely interested in what you and other more knowledgeable posters here had to say on the marketing terms, as well as any insight on where the claims came from, which you covered more than i expected.

with that said, i think the cable is a fantastic looking product, and i am happy to see pre-terminated cable available on your site. knowing that you ran thorough tests with the cable and fully approve of the product makes me much more comfortable seeing it for sale through ascend. once i get settled in a more permanent location and know what length of cable i will need, i will be taking a look at buying some of the ultralink for my system.

once again, thank you to dave and the rest of ascend for your unparalleled customer service and your willingness to share your knowledge with the rest of us.

EDIT: about the contest: how about you make it a roll of that pre-terminated cable instead of a baseball cap (which i already won one from the baby contest)? :D also, for the time being, you should update the cable listing to fix that "geometery" typo (geometry) ;)

[davef]

about the contest: how about you make it a roll of that pre-terminated cable instead of a baseball cap (which i already won one from the baby contest)? :D also, for the time being, you should update the cable listing to fix that "geometery" typo (geometry) ;)

Doh! That is a much better idea... OK -- you guys create the marketing copy and in a few weeks when submissions stop, we will call a vote and determine the winner. Winner receives a free 12ft pair, which according to my paperwork, has a retail price of about $90.

Didn't notice that typo :o Thanks for pointing it out!

[drewface]

Didn't notice that typo :o Thanks for pointing it out!
no problem! thanks for changing the prize. now i'll actually have to participate... :D

[davef]

Ok--

in typical Ascend fashion...

here are some numbers to crunch and perhaps use in the new marketing copy.

Speaker cable 1 = 12 foot length of the Ultralink we are discussing

resistance at 1kHz .047
resistance at 120Hz = .038

at 1kHz

L=2.6 uH
C=1.5 mF

at 120Hz

L=2.8uH
C=1.5mF

Speaker cable 2 = 12 foot length of pre-wire similar to what we used to sell

resistance at 1kHz .317
resistance at 120Hz = .252


at 1kHz

L=19.8 uH
C=1.80 mF

at 120Hz

L=20uH
C=1.92uF


Notice that in cable 1, the inductance/capacitance ratio is much less than cable 2. This is really the only important aspect of speaker cable performance. In cable 2, inductance is much higher -- in a long cable run, this cable could sound less detailed than cable # 1. It could sound like it has more bass because there will be some degree of high frequency loss.

I often wonder why cable manufacturers don't publish these numbers :confused: ;)

[drewface]

wow. those really are some pretty noticeable numbers. now i gotta go do research about what it all means!

also, as an aside, i just checked out ultralink's homepage and noticed they have bi-wire pre-terminated cable. have you had any experience with that product? i know bi-wiring is a huge headache to talk about and its advantages are often times negligible, but i thought it was interesting to see special cable like that (i had never come across it before).

[BradJudy]

Dave, did you happen to compare the specs of the bulk cable to the pre-made cables? I tend to buy bulk and cut and terminate myself.



I often wonder why cable manufacturers don't publish these numbers :confused: ;)

Canare publishes some of these numbers for their speaker cable. Example of 4S11 - http://canare.com/index.cfm?objectid=ED7479EC-3048-7098-AF06286428706042

They don't list L, but they have R and C in there, as well as frequency response graphs.

[BradJudy]

Here's a quick and simple re-working of the existing text:

Extended frequency response, increased dynamic range and greater clarity are achieved through:

Extremely low capacitance and inductance
Top quality 12 gauge oxygen free copper
Advanced internal winding geometry



Physical features for a flexible, durable cable:

High strand count wire
Flexible, low-friction dielectric
Double insulated


Excellent features:

High quality gold plated banana plugs
Molded Y boots
Ultra-cool frisbee carrying case included



I replaced the directional labels with mention of the molded boots. I didn't know what to do with the carrying case, so I went for silly.

BTW: Dielectric was misspelled too.

[muzz]

Dielectric?

Are they referring to the individual coatings on each of the twisted pair wires to be the Dielectric?
I mean, it IS a sort, because of the reactance between the 2, but I deal with coaxial cable all the time(and used to work with air capacitors and such in RF amplifier building), and the term Dielectric is the spacing between the 2 conductors, be it FOAM, or Air.

Seems strange to call it double insulated(UNLESS there are TWO coatings of vinyl/poly/whatever, OVER the twisted pairs).

Are there TWO seperate coatings/jackets OVER the twisted pairs, or are they calling the individual jackets AND the outer coating?

I'm not sure that I'm going to be understood, LMK if there are any questions.

Thx

m

[muzz]

I am very pleased to make this announcement. Many people have been asking us for a high quality - affordable, pre-terminated speaker cable...

Here it is :D

Through an exclusive arrangement and continuing with our tradition of offering the highest sound quality at affordable prices, we are pleased to announce that we are now offering true audiophile-quality Ultralink speaker cable. Available in pre-terminated lengths or 14 gauge 4 conductor by the foot. This cable is made in Canada and after a thorough performance evaluation; we are using it exclusively throughout our engineering facilities and auditioning systems.

I personally find the cable to be of excellent quality!

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/cable/matrixspkr.html

Enjoy!


Dave, you said 14g in your post here, AND the announcement, but the PROMO/AD says 12g.
May wanna look into that.

BTW, Is it a typo, or are you meaning that you can order the pre-cut lengths of 12g, OR BUY 14g by the foot?

[CraigT]

Less filling...tastes great.
Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
Purtyer than a new set of snow tires.
More fun than a barrel full of monkeys.

[davef]

Hey Brad,


Dave, did you happen to compare the specs of the bulk cable to the pre-made cables? I tend to buy bulk and cut and terminate myself.

No, I have not -- but I will definitely put it on my to do list. It is 4 conductor cable, would you want the 4 pairs wired in parallel yielding 2 pairs?


Dave, did you happen to compare the specs of the bulk cable to the pre-made cables? I tend to buy bulk and cut and terminate myself.

[QUOTE=BradJudy]Canare publishes some of these numbers for their speaker cable. Example of 4S11 - http://canare.com/index.cfm?objectid=ED7479EC-3048-7098-AF06286428706042 They don't list L, but they have R and C in there, as well as frequency response graphs.

That is very nice to see. Perhaps more cable manufacturers will adopt this, but my guess is that they won't.


i just checked out ultralink's homepage and noticed they have bi-wire pre-terminated cable. have you had any experience with that product?

I physically examined the product and it is quite nice but I feel the cost is a bit restrictive (it is expensive).


Dielectric? Are they referring to the individual coatings on each of the twisted pair wires to be the Dielectric? I mean, it IS a sort, because of the reactance between the 2, but I deal with coaxial cable all the time(and used to work with air capacitors and such in RF amplifier building), and the term Dielectric is the spacing between the 2 conductors, be it FOAM, or Air."

In general, the term dielectric refers to any non-conductive material. Its less common usage refers to the insulating material between to reactive components. As you know, speaker cable has a positive conductor and a negative conductor. These would react with each other without the presence of the insulating material, so technically, the term is correct.


Are there TWO seperate coatings/jackets OVER the twisted pairs, or are they calling the individual jackets AND the outer coating?"

There is no coating or foil over the conductors, each conductor has a jacket, the pair is then twisted and then there is an outer jacket. I believe it is a requirement for a cable to be double insulated in order to meet in-wall wiring requirements (CL3)


Dave, you said 14g in your post here, AND the announcement, but the PROMO/AD says 12g. May wanna look into that.BTW, Is it a typo, or are you meaning that you can order the pre-cut lengths of 12g, OR BUY 14g by the foot?

Everything looks about right to me. The bulk cable is 14 gauge 4 conductor (order by the foot) and the pre-terminated cable is 12 gauge of specific lengths.

Nice sumbission Brad!!

[BradJudy]

No, I have not -- but I will definitely put it on my to do list. It is 4 conductor cable, would you want the 4 pairs wired in parallel yielding 2 pairs?!

Yes, that's what I do with the star quad and I think it makes the most sense for most installations. If you've got the time, it would be interesting to see how wiring the quad properly (linking opposite wires) compares to linking adjacent wires. I'm curious if the EM field differences will make a measurable difference the the properties of the cable.

[muzz]

I guess technically it is, but it's not what I am accustomed to.

For it to be precise, the spacing needs to be the same throughout(or VERY close to)though, and I would figure that a bit hard to do through windings.... of course, it shouldn't be hard to be do between the pairs, as that is solid jacket, and they've been doing things like that for Eons (ladder line etc...).

Thx.

m

[drewface]

so... the term dielectric, in this case, is referring to the material the coats around the conductors are made of, right?

[sensibull]

I won't try to better BradJudy's bullet points (mostly 'cause the electrical science is beyond me), but here are two somewhat tongue-in-cheek alternatives for the introductory paragraph:

Slay the Monster

Speaker cable is the boogeyman of the audio world, polarizing listeners into two camps: the believers and the skeptics. Here at Ascend Acoustics, we depend on real world measurements to put some "teeth" into our claims of superior performance. We also strive for absolute neutrality in delivering the audio signal from its source to your ears. To achieve this, we have selected a speaker cable that in-house measurements show to have a significantly lower ratio of inductance/capacitance than similar-grade alternatives. No magic bullet. No mumbo jumbo. Just plain physics.

or

The Truth is Out There

Tired of the speaker cable debate devolving into an X-Files episode full of pseudo science and alien technology? The truth is much simpler: inductance and capacitance are the only factors that really matter, and fortunately both
are quantifiable. Our in-house tests of the Ultralink MX-2 High Performance speaker cable have shown it to have a significantly lower ratio than other "high-end" cables on the market, delivering a clean, clear signal that leaves interstellar transport in the hands of the entertainers.

[BradJudy]

Sensibull - I like that first paragraph of yours - good stuff. Just one small change of some wording other than "audio alchemy" since that was a name of an actual company in the audio world.

[drewface]

Well, here's my shot at re-working the features section:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Features:

Top-rate build quality:

12AWG high strand oxygen free copper
Advanced internal winding geometry
Double insulated with flexible, low-friction dielectric

Extremely low capacitance, inductance, and resistance for extended frequency response*

Capacitance = 2.6uH @ 1kHz, 2.8uH @ 120Hz
Inductance = 1.5mF @ 1kHz and 120Hz
Resistance = .047Ω @ 1kHz, .038Ω @ 120Hz

FREE carrying case included!

* measurements taken with 12ft cables
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I left out the banana plugs part because the fact the cable is pre-terminated with high quality plugs is already covered both in the current intro paragraph (which sensibull offered some nice alternatives to) as well as the listing on the accessories page. Also, i combined some of the other bullet points that seemed to go together. not sure if i combined the double insulated/dielectric stuff right, so if what i wrote doesn't make sense, someone let me know so i can fix it. i threw in the measurements dave posted, since we've all learned they are what really matter in speaker cable. also, i think FREE extras are a better marketing pull than "ultra-cool" extras...

this whole thread has been extremely interesting to me to learn about what actually makes one speaker cable better than another. it's nice to know i could argue with salespeople in stores now and actually know what the hell i'm talking about!

[davef]

Great stuff so far!!!

Sensibull, I agree with Brad, your first paragraph is wonderful!

(I should have you guys redo the entire website ;) )



so... the term dielectric, in this case, is referring to the material the coats around the conductors are made of, right?

It is referring to the jacket or sleeve (the insulating material) around the wires.

[buzzy]

I'm sure it's been said already, but there's no question that the money would be better spent on speakers rather than cables, in terms of audible bang for the buck, for the budget constrained buyer. So the cables are really about convenience, and just the pleasure of having fine gear - from that point of view, they're reasonably priced.

"in-house measurements show to have a significantly lower ratio of inductance/capacitance than similar-grade alternatives. No magic bullet. No mumbo jumbo. Just plain physics." You're welcome to show the measurements that show this difference is audible, especially relative to spending the money instead on an upgrade to the next level of speakers. Until then, you might want to ease up on the last few sentences. And emphasize the value they're really delivering, not the pseudo scientific part. You know better than anyone that you want people to be happy about their purchase well into the future, and not realize at some point down the road that they bought them for the wrong reasons. Sell the benefits they really offer, and that won't happen.

As you say, people want cables, and hooking stuff up is a big hurdle for most people - gear sits in the boxes for ages sometimes because people don't have a day to figure out what they need and how to connect it. So it's not a matter of suggesting not selling them, just suggesting you not muddy the waters by getting behind the ultimately losing proposition with the voodoo acoustics. And staying in keeping with the listener's-interest-first philosophy.

[sensibull]

Clearly you are in the skeptic camp, buzzy ;)

FWIW, I am too but nowhere did I say/write that the difference would be audible, just that the cables are better made than others and that can be proven.

[drewface]

Clearly you are in the skeptic camp, buzzy ;)

FWIW, I am too but nowhere did I say/write that the difference would be audible, just that the cables are better made than others and that can be proven.He's right. I think the whole point of this little competition is to turn some of the seemingly pure marketing spin into stating the facts: this cable is very well made and produced better results than other brands in areas that matter most in speaker cable performance.

[sensibull]

He's right. I think the whole point of this little competition is to turn some of the seemingly pure marketing spin into stating the facts.

Again, I ask: Where did I not state the facts? The only qualitative sentence in my entire paragraph was: "We also strive for absolute neutrality in delivering the audio signal from its source to your ears." and that was based on the following quote from David.


A higher inductance cable will have more high-frequency loss, thus making a loudspeaker sound warmer, a higher capacitance cable will have more low-frequency loss thus resulting in a more detailed, perhaps brighter sound.

It follows logically that a cable with a better inductance/capacitance ratio will be closer to "neutral."

[curtis]

sensibull, I think drewface was agreeing with your post in reply to buzzy.

[sensibull]

sensibull, I think drewface was agreeing with your post in reply to buzzy.

You know I realized that might be the case a few minutes after I posted, but the "He's right" rather than "You're right" (after quoting me) kinda threw me off.

[buzzy]

He's right. I think the whole point of this little competition is to turn some of the seemingly pure marketing spin into stating the facts: this cable is very well made and produced better results than other brands in areas that matter most in speaker cable performance.But the whole point of making those statements is to imply something that isn't a fact: that the cables make an meaningful audible difference, one commensurate with the cost. So that's still marketing spin, don't kid yourself.

Bottom line, I'm suggesting that Ascend not get on the wrong side of this. It undermines everything they've built their reputation on. And it calls into question their credibility on other statements. For example, when they say a product has a triple-chambered deoneodymium magnet, or whatever - are people supposed to believe that matters, or will they think it's more of this kind of stuff?

Sell the cables on their actual benefits. That way the right people will buy them. You don't want people buying 170s and these cables, instead of 340s and standard wire, which is what they should do if they want to hear the difference.

[drewface]

sensibull, I think drewface was agreeing with your post in reply to buzzy.yeh, sorry i wasn't clear. i was agreeing with sensibull
But the whole point of making those statements is to imply something that isn't a fact: that the cables make an meaningful audible difference, one commensurate with the cost. So that's still marketing spin, don't kid yourself.i agree that any sort of statement about a product can be seen as marketing spin. this little exercise is to see if we can present the facts simply as they are with minimal spin. obviously you'll want to make the product you're selling sound good, everyone does that, even ascend. the quote at the top of this page, "reaching the peak of audio purity," could be considered "marketing spin."

there's no way any company selling a product is going to not use some sort of marketing spin. the only way to do this is to simply list something like:
CMT-340 Loudspeaker
Needless to say, that's not going to sell anything. I agree that the initial listing for these cables had a little more marketing spin than i was used to seeing on ascend's site, but that is what we are trying to change to an acceptable level, while presenting the facts.

this argument could go on forever, probably...

[davef]

Great points Drewface!

Buzzy, nowhere on our site or in this discussion has it been said that these cables will sound any better than any other cable. Features and facts have been listed with perhaps more “marketing” than our customer base is used to seeing.

The fact is that I have measured both lower capacitance and lower inductance compared to some other cables. Those specifications are determined by the way a cable is wound and Ultralink puts their own marketing spin on that. Personally, I don’t see a problem – they need to sell their cables in the way they see fit, in a heavily controversial market completely dominated by a goliath of a company that is a master marketer that created this type of marketing.


Bottom line, I'm suggesting that Ascend not get on the wrong side of this. It undermines everything they've built their reputation on. And it calls into question their credibility on other statements.

Point taken, but seriously - let us not get carried away here, these are not our products and no outrageous claims have been made.

[buzzy]

Great points Drewface!

Buzzy, nowhere on our site or in this discussion has it been said that these cables will sound any better than any other cable. Features and facts have been listed with perhaps more “marketing” than our customer base is used to seeing.

The fact is that I have measured both lower capacitance and lower inductance compared to some other cables. Those specifications are determined by the way a cable is wound and Ultralink puts their own marketing spin on that. Personally, I don’t see a problem – they need to sell their cables in the way they see fit, in a heavily controversial market completely dominated by a goliath of a company that is a master marketer that created this type of marketing.



Point taken, but seriously - let us not get carried away here, these are not our products and no outrageous claims have been made.Well, to quote a line from a famous baseball story - say it ain't so, Joe.

Saying "extended frequency response, increased dynamic range and greater clarity" is very definitely saying "that these cables will sound any better than any other cable." - link to Ascend website page (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/cable/matrixspkr.html)

And saying "they need to sell their cables in the way they see fit, in a heavily controversial market completely dominated by a goliath of a company that is a master marketer that created this type of marketing." is saying if you can't beat 'em, join 'em - that is, go down to Monster's level. Well, you know what people think of them, and you're saying you're going to join them. Say it ain't so.

drewface is actually very confused about what marketing is. I think that's partly due to using the euphemism "marketing spin" when we should have just used "total BS". Not to mention going from saying "it's not marketing spin" to "marketing spin is OK" in the space of 2 posts. But he inadvertently did a nice job of proving my point by pointing out another phrase on the site. Once you're willing to make stuff up about one thing, who's to say where it stops? And that isn't marketing - which is about understanding your customer needs and delivering on that.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that.

[BradJudy]

buzzy - I'm curious why you've assumed that the measurements don't make an audible difference.

I don't know if they do or don't, but I wouldn't be calling it "total BS" without any experience. This isn't a situation where a difference isn't theoretically possible, there's a measurable difference in electrical performance that may or may not make a difference in audible performance.


Saying "extended frequency response, increased dynamic range and greater clarity" is very definitely saying "that these cables will sound any better than any other cable."

Actually, this statement implies that they are better than something (the use of relative wording instead of absolute). It's typical marketing phrasing in that they don't give the reference point for the statement (greater clarity than what?), but it doesn't even imply that they are better than any other cable, let alone say it definitively.

I'm certainly not big on fancy cables or their marketing, but
I'm disappointed that someone who is really big on facts has been making arguments based on assumptions and hyperbole.

[drewface]

drewface is actually very confused about what marketing is. I think that's partly due to using the euphemism "marketing spin" when we should have just used "total BS". Not to mention going from saying "it's not marketing spin" to "marketing spin is OK" in the space of 2 posts.marketing is simply buying and/or selling a product in a market. that's what ascend is doing, that's what ultralink is doing, that's what monster and **** are doing. the way i see "marketing spin" is when companies make bold claims about the product (ie "You won't find a better cable for a better price") they are selling without presenting any concrete facts to back up these claims. this is why the current listing of the ultralink cables alarmed me with the line "Advanced internal winding geometry for extended frequency response, increased dynamic range and greater clarity." I'd say 99% of consumers (not users on this board, i'm talking general public) have no idea what that sentence means, but it sounds really good and makes the product sound better.

here's where this exercise comes in. dave presented to us cold, hard numbers to look at for both this product and similar grade cable, as well as gave a quick explanation of what the numbers mean and how the way a cable is wound can have effects on such readings. he then challenged us to rework the bullet points provided by ultralink to make them a little less "spinny." i never said any of the solutions myself or others here have posted weren't spin, but i truly do believe that they come off as having less spin than the current cable listing. ascend likes to show the numbers/facts as plain as possible, as seen by the number of graphs presented for their speakers, and let their consumers decide if those numbers are what they are looking for. sure, that's still marketing, but i wouldn't call it "spin."

[chas]

Here's a link to an interview with a representative of Ultralink - it discusses their point of view on controversial topics such as directionality of wires:

http://www.ultralinkcables.com/guides/Ultralink_20Q.pdf

[drewface]

Here's a link to an interview with a representative of Ultralink - it discusses their point of view on controversial topics such as directionality of wires:

http://www.ultralinkcables.com/guides/Ultralink_20Q.pdfgood read. i skimmed a lot of it, but what i did focus on was pretty interesting! i'll give it another look when i have the time.

[BradJudy]

That's interesting - there seems to be some good items, but I'm always concerned when I reach items I know more about (like IT and wireless technologies) and the content is way off. This always raises a red flag for me to double-check other statements made.

Some things, like the common mis-perception about the velocity of propagation of a signal versus the velocity of electrons is good, but then he brings in a reference to the drift velocity of electrons (without using that term) that just confuses the issue.

While not totally accurate, one can view electrons in wire like water in a pipe. When you turn on the hot water faucet in your home, the water molecules don't have to travel all of the way from the hot water heater to the tap. That's because the pipe is already full of water - similar to how the wire already has "free" electrons (conductive materials have electrons that aren't "attached" to molecules and can move between molecules). The water starts flowing immediately (this is the "signal"). The "velocity of propagation" of your water "signal" would be measured from the source to the destination - in a fraction of a second, the "signal" moved several meters. Did an individual molecule of water move from the hot water heater to the faucet? No. How do you know? Because the water didn't get hot for a while. The actual velocity of the water was much lower than the velocity of the "signal".

Now, there is more complexity here because there's a difference between electron velocity and electron "drift" because the electrons don't flow as directly as the water does, but this is the best basic analogy I know of.

There are other examples of opportunities to "de-mystify" some of the mentioned science (like the mention of "Brownian motion" which is a term that sounds fancy, but generally means random motion) that make me sad. If he really wanted to make these things more clear and explain why they were good, he could have and didn't.

Of course, he's in charge of marketing, not engineering, so I guess I'm asking too much for him to go beyond paraphrasing things his engineers tell him. I'd like to see an EE PhD to answer the same questions (I know some, but I don't know that they'd have the patience to address the items).

[buzzy]

It might be interesting, on a few levels, to look at what SVS is doing on this, as they are fairly similar to Ascend (internet direct, somewhat similar target customer and price point). And of course it's part of good marketing to evaluate how the competition is addressing your target customer.

Link to SVS web page (http://www.svsound.com/products-parts-cables.cfm)
We're not going to say you have to get cables as fine as these for your SVS speakers, or passive subwoofer (such as the CS, CS-Plus, and CS-Ultra)... but if you just dropped a good bit of cash on a great system, and simply want to know you have the best cables we can imagine owning... then these are them. Hot off the boat, you don't find many nicer wire sets than this. We told Better Cables to spare no expense and what resulted are wires that understandably aren't inexpensive, but are so well built and so nice looking you'll want to keep them casually out... say on your home theater front table!

We often tell folks that are on a tight budget to get good quality 12 or 14 gauge wire for their speakers or passive sub packages, and just enjoy the bass. Those that want to spend more, and show off their system in the process, need look no further than the new high-power wires from Better Cables.

[drewface]

Hey buzzy,

i agree, that is a pretty good way to go about selling cables, basically saying that if you have the budget and want the peace of mind that comes from having high-quality components, that those are a good product to get. i think throwing something like that in for the ultralinks would be a great idea.

the only thing about the svs listing is at the end of the second paragraph on the site:
Your SVS products simply can not sound better than they will with these wires. you mentioned that listing features of a cable like ultralink has implies that users will hear a very audible difference in sound quality. to me, this straight-up stating that you will hear a difference is worse. i thought the stuff leading up to this statement was pretty good, though.

also, i think the ultralink looks a lot better than those cables ;)

[drewface]

so... when will a winner be decided? :D

[davef]

Hi Drewface,

Sorry about the delay... This is high on my priority list right now but I have something else that I must complete before I get to the cable. Please allow about 2 more weeks...

Thanks!!!

[drewface]

Sorry about the delay... This is high on my priority list right now but I have something else that I must complete before I get to the cable. Please allow about 2 more weeks...no worries! take your time.

[AndrewM]

buzzy - I'm curious why you've assumed that the measurements don't make an audible difference.



Fantastic point.

In this day and age, some people just rather disagree for the sake of disagreement. Without ever actually evaluating and deciding for themselves. And the fact remains, one person's decision may be the exact opposite of another's purely based on the fact that no two people are exactly alike, ie, hear the same things, have the same equipment, same room, same tastes etc etc etc.

To be negative is just some people's place in life, for one reason or another. Do I think $500 cables will make a truly audible difference compared to $25 cables, probably not... compared to say, spending that $500 on more power, room acoustics etc, however that isnt to say that it makes NO difference.

In addition, there is illustrated and scientific fact making the cables Dave is offering better... whether that data makes any difference to your home, is your decision to make.

[buzzy]

Do I think $500 cables will make a truly audible difference compared to $25 cables, probably not... compared to say, spending that $500 on more power, room acoustics etc, I can't argue with that.

[sensibull]

so... when will a winner be decided? :D

When people stop ordering Sierras :D

[drewface]

When people stop ordering Sierras :Dyeh... i'm perfectly fine waiting for such a good cause! its just too bad i can't afford a pair for myself at the moment :(

[sensibull]

Sorry about the delay... This is high on my priority list right now but I have something else that I must complete before I get to the cable. Please allow about 2 more weeks...

Should I go ahead and uncross my fingers? :) (Daddy needs a new pair of speaker cables).

[davef]

Congrats Sensibull :D

Looks like you can now uncross those fingers ;)

Site was updated yesterday with the new information regarding the cables. Great Stuff!

Thanks to everyone!

Sensibull -- please send me an email to verify your shipping address.

[sensibull]

Very cool! :) Hope that last post didn't come off wrong. I was merely hoping to be in the running (and not so subtly nudging a decision), not trying to suggest a winner. Jazzed to contribute, though.

[JohnMichael]

sensibull you will love the cables. I own many different pairs by some well known cable manyufacturers and the Ultralink beat the others with my Ascend CBM-170 SE's. A great value in cables and improves on the CBM 170's strengths.

[davef]

Very cool! :) Hope that last post didn't come off wrong. I was merely hoping to be in the running (and not so subtly nudging a decision), not trying to suggest a winner. Jazzed to contribute, though.

Hi Sensibull,

Oh no -- not at all... I think what you wrote was spectacular and puts into words my entire philosophy on the matter -- something that I often have difficulty with (expressing it in writing) I can't thank you enough, but now that you've won, expect more "work" coming your way ;)

Cables will ship on Monday...

Have a great weekend!

[drewface]

aw, bummer, i didn't win... oh well.

congrats sensibull! hope you enjoy your new cables.

[watsonusn]

The pre-terminated cables, is it a set, ie the 8ft pair for $xx is for one or two speakers?

[davef]

The pre-terminated cables, is it a set, ie the 8ft pair for $xx is for one or two speakers?

The cable is priced and packaged as a pair ( for use with 2 speakers )

Take care!

[Asliang]

LOL. I shoulda read this thread before I made my order; mistakenly ordered 2 pairs (I was thinking this price was horrendous!).

Thanks to Dina and Dave this got fixed promptly and also aggregated my two orders--cable and Sierras. Btw the cables look so much better in person than in the photos!