About to build new system

[tripp1n]

Ive been reading around about Ascend and am getting interested in getting a couple 340SE. Forgive me if i show to much newbness about this but home audio is new to me.
I already have an Infinity PS12, and i was wandering the cost/benefit of spending $600 on these speakers since, its not that easy to dish out that cash ( are they drastically that good over lets say a denon 5.1 home in box theather system?) Anything else to convince me to purchase these?
Also what would be my best bet for a decently priced/good quality reciever as i have no idea differences between all recievers, i have a hd capable tv and an audio optical cable already if it makes a difference.
I will be using this system mostly for music(rap), but as well as many movies and games.
Any other information that can help me is appreciated.

[Mike^S]

Hello tripp1n and welcome!

Ascend 340SE will definitely be a huge improvement over any home theater in a box system. Even the 170SE are awesome.

For receivers you can definitely get by with something in the $300 - $500 range. Something from Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, or Onkyo would be good. And later on you can upgrade that subwoofer. :D

[ebh]

i agree with mike^s--any "real" speaker will beat a home theater in the box by a large margin. i'd much much rather have a stereo setup of the 170s than a htib 5.1 setup (and that's what i had for a long time b/4 adding a sub, center and surrounds). so if the 340s seem out of your range, definitely consider the 170s (or 170s plus a good sub) as mike^s suggested.

as for a receiver, a few of us here have the panasonic xr55 and find it quite enjoyable. it can still be had from a few places for around $200. the xr57 has a few more features and is more widely available, but costs a bit more. both are good bang-for-the-buck receivers.

[Classpro]

I second the suggestion of Panasonic SA-XR 55 or 57. The only downside with the 340s is that the lowest crossover is 80hz. I suspect you lose a significant amount of the benefit of the 340s over the 170s by crossing at 80hz instead of, say 60hz, when you use a sub. If you are using full range without a sub, then of course you will get the full benefit of the 340s. I wish they made a true digital receiver like the Panasonic with a lower crossover point. It is a great sounding receiver.

[tripp1n]

I was actually considering the xr55 before, but i think i saw people bashing it somewhere compared to other recievers before so i forgot about it, anymore info?
Does the price difference between the 170s and 340s really account for the sound quality, anything that can convince me ?
Also i dont understand do you mean that crossover will be lower if i use the xr reciever or with any reciever and what does crossover differences mean(just that itll be more bass??)

[Classpro]

I have two SA-XR55s in my house. My brother has the 57, and several friends have bought them too. Everyone I know who has one likes it a lot. Sound quality using digital input is very impressive. The only negative thing I've ever read is that it's "bright." I don't think it's bright. Very clean, accurate. I'm using it for two channel. It is the best sounding receiver I've heard or owned. I have a higher-end Marantz, and the Panasonic is superior sounding, IMO. Unfortunately, I need a huge amp for that system, and the Panasonic does not have the juice (the Marantz has preamp outs for my big power amplifier). Otherwise, I'd replace the Marantz.

When you hook a sub to the receiver, you have to set the crossover point for the fronts and the sub. The panasonic has crossover points at 80hz, 100hz, and higher. It does not allow you to set a crossover point lower than 80hz. So if you want to use a sub, you will not be sending low frequencies to the front speakers - the low frequencies will be directed to the sub. I think the main advantage of the 340s over the 170s is the added low frequency extension enabled by the two drivers and larger cabinet. Crossing over at 80hz, you will not be getting much benefit from the added low frequency capability of the 340s. Of course, if you were to run the front speakers full range and not use a sub, then there would be a significant advantage to the 340s over the 170s - more bass response.

If you were to go that way, and use a sub, I would think the 170s would be very close to the 340s because of the 80hz crossover limit. Some have suggested that having two drivers makes each work less hard, and so you get a bit less distortion with the 340s even crossed at 80hz. Someone else said the tweeter, while very similar, has a slightly better implementation on the 340. I don't know whether this would be noticeable or whether it would, in your mind, justify the price difference (personally, I doubt the 340's extra cost would be justified with an 80hz crossover point). It would be nice to hear from David F. whether he thinks there is a meaningful acoustic advantage to the 340 over the 170 with an 80hz crossover point.

I have heard the 340SE with the XR55, and was quite taken with the sound. I have not heard the 170se, but I imagine they would have a strong family resemblance. I am not yet an Ascend owner, but am thinking seriously about getting a pair of the 170s. If only the stock market would stop going down! :-)

[Gov]

Well, I always cross at 80hz and I just went from the 170SE's to 340SE mains and the difference was noticable right away. The 340's can definately play louder with less distortion than the 170's. The 170's are GREAT speakers, but the 340's are just better. Also, by crossing the 340's with the 80hz XO using a very capable sub, I don't think you lose anything. I think running the 340's as "large", a 60hz XO may possibly be better.

[tripp1n]

thanks for replies guys,ive learned from this thread already, seeing as how i would like to get the best out of my speakers, and guessing the 340s would be my best buy atm to be futureproof anyone have a link to a good 60Hz reciever they recommend to be paired with them, preferabbly under $400

[boludaso]

I'll throw my support for the panny 55 or 57.

If you do upgrade to the Ascends, you'll have a night(s) like I did where you cant get enough of what you're hearing. Instruments sounds different/better/real, vocals are spot on, etc, etc, ect.

The result will be one or many of the following. Air will smell fresher, living will be worth it again, the sun will look brighter, your wife will go from a 7 to an 8, an 8 to a 9, (you get the drift on that one), you'll step lighter, money will start rolling in because you work happier knowing you have those speaks at home waiting for you, music will seem real, movies will be an event, and you'll just have a rosier view on life and you'll want to name your next-born David/Fabrikant/Fab/Kant/Dave or any other combination you can think of. Oh, and sex will be better too.

it was so worth my money. My wife thinks I'm a bit off my rocker, but she says she's happy seeing me so happy as i sit on my couch flipping from cd to tv to dvd to tuner just looking to hear something i've never heard before from the same old source.

[tripp1n]

im gonna hold you to it bolu!
Ok i guess since everyone here is recommending the panasonic i think ill get it, now does the hdmi that the xr57 offer over the 55 worth the sound quality for $100 extra it costs?
And can anyone else confirm price/quality differences between the 340se and 170s when using it with this reciever.
Hoping someone can push me to finnaly make the right decision so i can get this system up and goin.

[Grayson73]

im gonna hold you to it bolu!
Ok i guess since everyone here is recommending the panasonic i think ill get it, now does the hdmi that the xr57 offer over the 55 worth the sound quality for $100 extra it costs?
And can anyone else confirm price/quality differences between the 340se and 170s when using it with this reciever.
Hoping someone can push me to finnaly make the right decision so i can get this system up and goin.

I have the XR57 with 3 340s and 2 170s. The XR57 can dual amp the mains in 5.1 mode, the XR55 can't. I don't have the XR55 so I don't know how much difference it makes.

Both can dual amp in stereo mode.

I love my set up!

[bikeman]

I have the XR57 with 3 340s and 2 170s. The XR57 can dual amp the mains in 5.1 mode, the XR55 can't. I don't have the XR55 so I don't know how much difference it makes.
I had the 55 till last week. I now have the 57. Dual amp makes no difference in my set-up with either receiver.

David

[curtis]

The "Dual Amp" feature is suppose to double the amount of power available to the respective speaker, right?

I can't see that making a difference unless you are playing at extremely loud levels or have difficult load.

[tripp1n]

so is there really any reason worth it for me to spend the extra $100 for the xr57 over the 55?
what does the hdmi input do on the xr57 i dont understand, provide better sound quality??
im guessing even with the 80hz crossover and 340s and using my sub it wont cause a problem with music being not clear and and to much bass?

[bikeman]

so is there really any reason worth it for me to spend the extra $100 for the xr57 over the 55?
No. It's basically the same unit. Spend the "extra" $100. on wine, women and song. I picked up an open box 57 for about the same price as a 55. That's the only reason I went with the 57.

David

[Classpro]

If you have a TV with only one HDMI input, and you have two HDMI sources, then you can use the HDMI inputs on the XR-57 for switching sources. That's really the only time I think it would be worth the extra money for the SR-57 over the SR-55. Performance is basically the same (although the 57 has a couple of other features of minor importance).

They make it sound like dual amp will double power availability by putting two channels of amps together, but I don't know if it's really true. I have not seen output statistics in dual amp mode.

[tripp1n]

ok sounds like im getting the xr55 to use with my ps12, now if anyone can convince me on which route to go to pair with these either a couple 170s, or 340s, will the extra cash be worth the extra sound quality for the speakers.(sorry if i ask same questions over,really want to be sure so i can order these before i go on vacation in a couple days)

[bikeman]

ok sounds like im getting the xr55 to use with my ps12, now if anyone can convince me on which route to go to pair with these either a couple 170s, or 340s, will the extra cash be worth the extra quality for the speakers.(sorry if i ask same questions over,really want to be sure so i can order these before i go on vacation in a couple days)
The quality of the speaker won't change. The 170 is just as well built as the 340 or the 200. I'd rely on Ascend to let you know which speaker is best suited for your situation.

David

[Classpro]

I suspect this 170 v. 340 issue is important to a lot of people. I have not had the pleasure of being able to do a comparison crossed over at the lowest 80hz point available with the Panasonic receiver. My logic tells me they should be quite similar, but another poster said he had both and found the 340s significantly better. Some guidance from Ascend on the 170 v 340 issue (when, if you're going to use a sub and cross over at 80hz, does it make sense to pay the extra for the 340s) would be helpful.

[Gov]

I have had both the 170's and 340's as mains XO 80hz. Yes, the 340's are noticably better because they can play louder with less distortion. I would say if you never get above 85db or so, the 170's would more than enough. However, if you are like me and really get on them, you would be happier with the 340s

[bikeman]

The listening environment and the distance from the speakers is also going to play a role. In my 9x12 study, where I'm only 6 ft. from the speakers, I can get ear bleeding sound without distortion out of the 200's. When I replaced my 340 Classics in the HT with 340SE's, I put the Classics in my study to see if I wanted to keep them there permanently. It was just overkill.

David

[tripp1n]

one thing i forgot to add is these speakers will be very close to me as i will sometimes use them for my pc. Setup kind of looking like this.
S PC S
Chair
Everything is placed directly from the wall, so since i will be about 2 1/2 feet from the wall and give or take a couple more feet from the chair to the speakers would the 340s just be overkill, or will i just have to lower the volume a bit over the 170s ?
Just to be sure do the 340s produce that good of sound quality improvement over the 170s for music from even a short distance ??
I will be about 7 feet from the wall when watching movies.
So basically what is the recommended distance for optimum quality to be away from the 170 or the 340.
Hoping to make up my mind before Monday.

[drewface]

for best results, you want to have some space behind the 170s (a couple inches) and the 340s (about a foot). if you're going to have speakers right up against the walls, you should go with the 200s, or a front ported speaker from a different manufacturer. also, sitting close to the speakers, the 340s would definitely be overkill, not to mention they are a pretty good sized speakers so you should consider that, as well.

i started my system with a pair of 170SEs and used them in a small room by themselves. they sounded fantastic for that setup. when i changed apartments at school and had more room to work with, i upgraded my system to the 340s to help fill in the sound. from the sound of your setup, i'd say go with the 170s if you can afford a little room behind them, or the 200s if not. if you don't want the 200s, i'd look around at some other brands for closed or front-ported speakers that can be mounted directly against a wall.

[tripp1n]

Ok i would be able to place the two 170se's evenly across from my tv/pc with a few inches behind them. One on the end of my tv desk and the other on the end of my pc desk. With those 2, xr55, and my ps12 should i be satisfied enough. My room size is 12x12x7.5, and possibly in the near future a little bigger.
So basically i ask the same question would the extra $~200 warrant the difference in sound quality with this setup to get the 340s ?
If for some reason i get the 340s over the 170s i would have to place those either on the carpet or on my desks also.
Im looking for a 2.1 system atm and will add a few more speakers in the coming months.
Hope i havent got annoying yet, but i hope someone can respond within 4 hours, thats the time i have to order them.

[drewface]

i definitely think the 170s will do you fine, especially for a 2.1 system in this size room. since you plan on adding other speakers in the future, you can always get the 340s then and use the 170s for surrounds.

EDIT: i keep spelling definitely wrong... tryin' to fix that

[bikeman]

i definately think the 170s will do you fine, especially for a 2.1 system in this size room. since you plan on adding other speakers in the future, you can always get the 340s then and use the 170s for surrounds.

Exactly.

David

[tripp1n]

thanks for all the great support, i finnaly ordered 2 170se's, as well as a new xr55 i got for $204. Cant wait to get this all up and going.

[drewface]

thanks for all the great support, i finnaly ordered 2 170se's, as well as a new xr55 i got for $204. Cant wait to get this all up and going.
congrats. i'm sure you'll be happy with your purchase. let us know what you think once you get everything up and running.

[tripp1n]

Well i got my 2 170ses hooked up to my xr55 as well as my infinity ps12, i firstly tried it by hooking it up to my pc with a simple cable going into the audio port of my pc in the back and a black/red plug in back of the reciever.
The sound of 192 mp3s to me sounds great.
First thing i noticed right off the bat is the xr55 smells like its overheated or something even after a few minutes off use, maybe im not use to the smell of recievers.
A problem i cant fix though is my dvds play at a lower volume for some reason, with mp3s i can have them usually set to 40 and its enough but with dvds i have to have it around 25 to get a feeling. Im connecting my lg511 with a optical cable to the reciever. Thing i have noticed though is when connected in optical cable 1 i can only have it set to tv/stb so i hear sound, and when its in optical2 i can only hear sound when its set to dvdrecorder.
A few questions arrive from all this
1. why is it that i cant just select dvd on the reciever to hear my sound from dvds
2. Why are my dvds playing at such a low volume.
3.When i have my optical cable connected to either port under digital input on my reciever it always shows 6 orange squares(of coure being speakers) and it sais 2ch mix. and under sound mode it sais digital. Ive tried every different setting i could think off to try to change it so it only plays in stereo, im guessing thats how i would make it so my volume is higher because it would know to output all the power to only 2 speakers. In setup1 and setup2 i have it set to only 2 speakers as well.
So hopefully from this long post someone gets an idea of what im experiencing cause i cant wait to fix this.
As well as anything else you guys can reccommend that have a similar setup to a newbie like me from settings to cables or anything else.
Thanks

[bikeman]

hopefully from this long post someone gets an idea of what im experiencing cause i cant wait to fix this.
As well as anything else you guys can reccommend that have a similar setup to a newbie like me from settings to cables or anything else.Thanks
I'm out tonight but if no one else responds, I'll give it a shot tomorrow night.
Even when I cooked my 55, there was no smell. Sorry, got to run.

David

[drewface]

i have a different receiver than you, but many of the same symptoms. the smell thing i'm not entirely sure about, but if it is a very strong smell and continues to exist, i'd give panasonic a call and ask about it.

the connection problems probably have to do with how the different inputs are configured. on my yamaha you can change what input goes to what source if the default configuration doesn't work for you. look through your manual and see if there is anything you can do to customize the input ports. the inputs on the back should be labeled with what source they default to, so make sure you're inputting to the dvd optical input.

dvds play at lower volumes for me, as well. i've played dvds through my receiver from a number of dvd players as well as a ps2. with the ps2, dvds are softer than games, so i assume that it is just how dvd audio is recorded. i wouldn't worry about it much.

if your receiver says it is in 2 channel mix, then it should only be outputting in 2 channels. my receiver also has the pictures of the different speakers lit up even when they're not all being used (i know this from when i only had the front 3 speakers, as well as i still don't have a subwoofer). i think this just indicates what channels are being received from the input, so a digital signal in DD or DTS or whatever you're using will send signals for all channels, which your receiver then downmixes into stereo. if you really feel like you're missing some audio in your setup, ask panasonic about it when you call them about the smell...

overall, your symptoms sound common and you have nothing to worry about, it's just some quirks in how receivers portray what they are doing.

[Classpro]

I don't get any smell with my SA-XR 55s. At least none that I notice, and I'm very sensitive to smell. I would check with Panasonic if it continues - I don't think you should get any smell when operating the receiver.

With respect to the other questions, I think Drewface is right. Since I have a Pany, I'll respond to each question:

1. why is it that i cant just select dvd on the reciever to hear my sound from dvds.

You can tell it which logical inputs (DVD, CD, etc) are assigned to each of the physical digital inputs. In essence, you have to tell it "DVD = Digital input #1" or whatever, so it knows when you select DVD whether to take the analog signal from the physical analog jacks or a digital signal from a digital jack, and from which of the digital jacks. Let me know if you can't find in the manual how to do this, and I'll look it up and post instructions.

2. Why are my dvds playing at such a low volume.

Maybe it's your analog soundcard that is playing at such a loud volume? The analog output may be amplified somewhat resulting in a higher level than the digital input. I would suspect the digital input is fine. You might try turning the volume on your soundcard down on your computer so that the level is matched with the digital input. Then turn up the volume to the appropriate level. Using digital from your computer is another option that would give you much better sound quality (generally), especially with the Panasonic. You can buy a USB sound card with digital output.


3.When i have my optical cable connected to either port under digital input on my reciever it always shows 6 orange squares(of course being speakers) and it sais [says] 2ch mix. and under sound mode it sais [says] digital. Ive tried every different setting i could think off to try to change it so it only plays in stereo, im guessing thats how i would make it so my volume is higher because it would know to output all the power to only 2 speakers. In setup1 and setup2 i have it set to only 2 speakers as well.

Be sure that you tell it that you do not have the other speakers hooked up. Should be set to "NONE" for everything other than the front speakers.

If you are playing a 5-7 channel dolby digital source (like some movies), the receiver has to convert those 5-7 channels of sound to your two channels of speakers. Otherwise, some of the sounds (center channel dialog, surround channels) would be lost. The 2ch mix shows that the 5-7 channels are being mixed down by the receiver. That's what it's supposed to do with a multi-channel input. If you play a two channel CD, it should not say "2ch mix."

Hope that helps.

[drewface]

Maybe it's your analog soundcard that is playing at such a loud volume? The analog output may be amplified somewhat resulting in a higher level than the digital input. I would suspect the digital input is fine. You might try turning the volume on your soundcard down on your computer so that the level is matched with the digital input. Then turn up the volume to the appropriate level. Using digital from your computer is another option that would give you much better sound quality (generally), especially with the Panasonic. You can buy a USB sound card with digital output.not sure if this will help with whatever you were suggesting, but i have both my cd changer and ps2 (which i use for dvds) hooked up through digital optical cables. cds and ps2 games play at "loud" levels while DVDs through the same connections play "soft". pretty sure it's a result of how the audio tracks on DVDs are encoded or something, and not the hardware.

[tripp1n]

thanks for excellent replies as usual.
Ive been really busy with work but managed to mess around with it a little more, and the sound this combo produces is great and very loud.
I now have my tv/pc/dvd player connected to my reciever.
I managed to set it so i can hear audio when its set on dvd while i play a dvd.
Sound being lower on dvds makes sense, so its not a bother then.
It should be processing the audio correctly to my speakers as it shows stereo on everything except my dvd which shows 2chmix.
So just a couple more questions
what is the difference between selecting digital and analog in the xr's options.
Im using optical cable for dvd player, simple red/white connectors for tv, and simple black jack with red/black connectors for pc. What can i do(purchase) to optimize each devices audio quality, and which digital pc sound card would you guys recommend as well as anything else i might be missing.

[Classpro]

"what is the difference between selecting digital and analog in the xr's options? Im using optical cable for dvd player, simple red/white connectors for tv, and simple black jack with red/black connectors for pc. What can i do(purchase) to optimize each devices audio quality, and which digital pc sound card would you guys recommend as well as anything else i might be missing."

First, let's be clear about what we're talking about. An analog signal is a very low level sound wave that is amplified (made louder) by an amplifier. Most amplifiers are analog amplifiers that make analog sounds louder so that you can hear them through your speakers. If you had an efficient enough speaker, you could hear the low level analog signal coming out of your computer sound card (you could hook up headphones to it, for example). It is a soundwave that, by vibrating a speaker cone, is audible.

A digital signal is data, not sound. You need to convert the digital signal into analog sound that can be heard. This is usually done with a DAC (a digital to analog converter) that takes the data and converts it to sound. There is likely a really cheap low end DAC in your computer's soundcard, along with some cheap low quality analog circuitry.

The Panasonic receiver is a true digital amplifier. I don't understand enough about the technical aspects to explain how it works, but it does not have a traditional DAC in it, and it only converts from digital data to analog sound at the end of the chain before outputting to your speakers, maintaining a very pure signal through its circuitry. If you plug an analog signal into the pany receiver, it converts the signal to digital - I believe with a ADC (analog to digital converter) - and then at the end of the chain converts it back to analog for output to your speakers. So analog signals are going through two separate conversion steps in the panasonic receiver, both of which lose quality. That is why a digital signal into the panasonic is so much better than an analog signal. When you add in the generally poor quality of DACS and output stages in most computer sound cards, you can get a huge improvement by getting a digital signal out of your computer and into the panasonic.

There are some inexpensive USB sound cards that will output a digital signal, but unfortunately many have internal upsampling from 44.1K to 48K that, if not done well, can impair the sound. So most people want bit perfect output from their soundcard. Also, windows can impair the sound through it's computer mixer (called kmixer). If you can avoid upsampling and mixing, your signal will remain pure.

I get great digital output using an MAudio Transit to give me a bit perfect digital signal. I also use the ASIO drivers that come with it to prevent Windows from missing with the sound files. It works great with a program like Foobar to manage your mp3 files. Then, of course, it is necessary to rip your CDs to MP3 (or something else like FLAC) properly to obtain the best possible quailty. I am very happy ripping with EAC and using LAME APS for encoding to mp3. APS is a good balance between top sound quality and reasonably small file size. I can hear deterioration with anything else. I don't hear deterioration with APS. APS files are generally less than 1/4th the size of the original wav file.

EAC/Lame Setup is a bit tricky, and it is time consuming to rip, but quality is first rate. All of the software is available free on the internet, and instructions for download and setup are here:

http://www.chrismyden.com/bestmp3guide.php

The cost of an Maudio transit usb sound card is about $80. There are other options: the E-Mu 0404 for example, but it's about $200 (supposed to have far superior analog output, a good headphone output, and some fancy features for recording). Even cheaper options with digital out should improve the sound considerably over most junky sound cards.

So, while I don't know what kind of sound card you have, unless it is a VERY good one you will get MUCH better sound from your computer with a USB sound card that outputs a bit-perfect digital signal into the Panasonic, especially if you rip with the tools that I have suggested. I have ripped all of my CDs, and I never listen to the original CDs anymore. It's much more convenient than finding and flipping disks. The only downside is that most streaming media players do not play gapless, so you get a break between tracks that can be annoying for tracks that are supposed to be connected. If you use foobar on a computer, however, there will be no gaps - foobar plays lame mp3s completely gapless.

I hope that helps.