View Full Version : Who uses a separate amp?
Just curious as to whether or not Ascend owners that have a mid-priced or higher a/v receiver use a separate amp and why they do. It doesn't matter 2, 3 or 5 channel amp, I'd like to hear from all owners. I feel that the Ascends are fairly easy speakers to drive and really don't benefit from the additional power. I am also curious and wonder if any Ascend owners went from an A/V receiver to separates and noticed a difference.
Thanx
BradJudy
03-03-2007, 09:28 PM
I use an Outlaw 950/750 combo with Ascends (340cSE and four 170s - fronts SE, rears classic). I bought it largely because I wanted a hefty, reliable amp that I could use for years with any variety of speakers. The combo sounds different than my H/K AVR-520, but it was more than just an amp swap - it was a dedicated pre-pro too. I'd say I can hear some more detail and it's a bit less 'warm', but it's hard to say since this isn't something you can A/B switch (at least not without equipment that I don't own).
Gov - I see on AVS that you mentioned you had an Emotiva LPA-1 and returned it. You heard no difference with the amp?
Well, I did not actually hear any difference in SQ. I believe it did give me some more headroom, but I am not sure. I don't know, sometimes I think I didn't give the LPA-1 more of a chance. Other times, I feel that an external amp maybe is not necessary with the Ascends. I don't really know. I was considering trying out another amp. Would it be fair to say the Ascends are an easy load to drive with a decent receiver? This is why I posted this question, "who uses an amp with their Ascends, and why?"
I had a Pio 1014 and used an Outlaw monoblock on the center channel. I do think it helped a bit with HT dialog. I am now using a Yamaha receiver with the monoblock but have considered the LPA-1.
buddhadas
03-04-2007, 07:24 AM
I have a Denon 3805, and i flip flop with a mcintosh 2505, and a Jbl Urei amp pushing my left and right 340 se's. The denon is supposedly 120wpc, but I prefer the sound and power of the Mcintosh (50wpc) and Jbl (75wpc). I listen to music primarily in 2 channel (pure direct on the denon) Too this old mans ears, it sounds better with an amp, but thats just my opinion.
Thanks,
Jim
I had a Pio 1014 and used an Outlaw monoblock on the center channel. I do think it helped a bit with HT dialog. I am now using a Yamaha receiver with the monoblock but have considered the LPA-1.
Were you having trouble hearing HT dialog without the monoblock when using the 1014? If so, at what levels? Also, were you happy with the 1014's performance at or near reference levels with the Ascends?
No I wouldn't say I was having trouble hearing dialog with the Pioneer and Ascends, just that it seemed more clear with the amp on the center channel. Dialog also seemed more clear when I tried the Outlaw 1070 receiver - which is only rated at 65 watts per channel but sounded more powerful than the Pioneer.
Also, were you happy with the 1014's performance at or near reference levels with the Ascends?
To be honest I rarely (if ever) listen at reference level. Overall I was satisfied with the performance of the 1014tx with the Ascends.
Chas,
Thanks for your input. Hopefully others will chime in on this
RoadWarrior
03-04-2007, 06:09 PM
I was wrestling with buying the Emotiva LPA-1.
Interesting article about whether you can really tell the difference in sound quality between amp and receiver.
Best
RoadWarrior
RoadWarrior
03-04-2007, 06:10 PM
oops..forgot to post link
http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx
BradJudy
03-04-2007, 07:27 PM
I note on that comparison. I participated in a blind A-B amp comparison at the RMAF where a tube amp was compared to a SS amp. The differences were very subtle between them and I couldn't say which was which (one person made the point that he knew which he thought was better, but not which was tube or SS). The volume was kept low enough so neither amp would clip, even at the peaks (as mentioned in the linked article above).
After the A-B, they demonstrated (using a 500W SS amp) that the dynamic peaks of music required about 10x the average power. They had a neat setup with one digital power meter showing an average power level and another that was set up to show peaks. It was cool to see the power output in real-time while you were listening. So, listening at a level that used about 20W of power had momentary peaks of 200W - this level was on the upper end of how loud I listen. When they cranked it to about 30W, the peaks were around 300W, but this was too loud for me.
The demo was done by some really smart technical guys and not an amp company.
oops..forgot to post link
http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx
Good read!! Thanx
"So, listening at a level that used about 20W of power had momentary peaks of 200W - this level was on the upper end of how loud I listen. When they cranked it to about 30W, the peaks were around 300W, but this was too loud for me."
What were the db levels in your examples?
BradJudy
03-04-2007, 08:25 PM
What were the db levels in your examples?
I didn't have a meter there, but I would guess 80 and 90db. I'd have to try some listening with a SPL meter in front of me to get a better idea.
Robert7
03-06-2007, 12:55 PM
In response to the question if there is a difference or improvement in sound with the Ascends with seperates. The answer is definitely yes. You can have a magical (IMO) sound with these speakers. To me magical is very musical (detailed and smooth). I have pushed these speakers with a Marsh A400 and later a Cary Audio Cinema 7 through a Classe SSP30MKII preamp. For movies this was outstanding and for music this was very good. I also owned Dynaudio Contour speaker but they are a level above. I have the 170's as mains and the 340se as center and Atlantic Tech in walls for the back right now. I have had them hooked up with a Marantz reciever which was ok but alittle thin for my taste. I am currently driving them with a HK avr435 and find the sound ok but not with the magic I once had. I am considering replacing it with an Arcam 250 or 300 but am also considering seperates. My ideal set-up would be to to use the Cary Audio Cinema 6 pre and the Primare A30.5 amp. I believe this might bring out the best these speakers can be. At this point I will look to upgrade my speakers.
Rob
Lots of opinions here ....thnx.....I hope Dave F shares his as well....Dave? :cool:
jsotelo
03-10-2007, 09:25 PM
Lots of opinions here ....thnx.....I hope Dave F shares his as well....Dave? :cool:
+1
Any insight Dave? :-)
My 340 order hasn't even shipped yet and I'm already considering upgrading my receiver :D
bikeman
03-11-2007, 04:04 AM
+1Any insight Dave? :-)
My 340 order hasn't even shipped yet and I'm already considering upgrading my receiver :D
I don't think you'll find Dave F. expressing an opinion on this. You'll find folks who are passionate about a particular brand but it's not quantifiable. They're all good and we each have our personal likes and dislikes. If it's not possible to use your own ears to make a decision, just buy from a company with a good return policy on the off chance that the receiver doesn't meet your expectations.
David
I realize this amp thing is all subjective, but what I really would like to know is, are the Ascends that easy for a "THX Select" receiver to drive at or near reference levels for a period of time without risking possible clipping. This is of course a calibrated receiver with an SPL meter, crossed at 80hz and the Ascends set to "small". As you probably already know, I have a Pioneer 1014 and I have listened at near or reference level a few times on music and movies. I know it's loud :D I don't think I have heard any clipping or compressed sound at those levels, but I want to be sure. My receiver, although it doesn't say it, I suspect is NOT considered high current (rated 480 watts consumption) and I realize the importance of that for dynamic peaks through out the frequency spectrum. I have looked at the impedence graph's for the Ascends and they look like they never go below 4 to 4.5 ohms. I guess thats considered good. Anyways, thats why I posted this question in the first place. I feel that maybe I should have a separate amp, so I don't risk damaging these great speakers.
S_rangeBrew
03-12-2007, 05:57 AM
Something to remember is the efficiency of the speaker is just as important as the power of the amp.
The HTM-200s are a few decibles less sensitive than the 340SEs. I was using 200s for my fronts, and managed to blow the left and right mains with my 1014tx, playing loud music... as in over 100db loud... a bit extreme.
DaveF was kind enough to exchange them with 340SEs for me. So now I have three 340SEs in the front, and 4 HTM-200s for surrounds. The 340s take quite a bit less power to drive, and I've had no problems.
I still plan on getting some nice pro-amp overkill in the future, but as long as I don't go to crazy with the 1014TX, I'm not worried about blowing these 340s because they are so efficient.
Something to remember is the efficiency of the speaker is just as important as the power of the amp.
The HTM-200s are a few decibles less sensitive than the 340SEs. I was using 200s for my fronts, and managed to blow the left and right mains with my 1014tx, playing loud music... as in over 100db loud... a bit extreme.
DaveF was kind enough to exchange them with 340SEs for me. So now I have three 340SEs in the front, and 4 HTM-200s for surrounds. The 340s take quite a bit less power to drive, and I've had no problems.
I still plan on getting some nice pro-amp overkill in the future, but as long as I don't go to crazy with the 1014TX, I'm not worried about blowing these 340s because they are so efficient.
How long were you playing the music at that level for?
Where you using "7 channel stereo" on the 1014?
I assume you were "small" crossed at 80 or 100hz?
RoadWarrior
03-13-2007, 06:41 PM
Could someone explain to me from a "Pure Technical" perspective, what makes this $17,000 Krell Amp supposedly sound better than lets say the $800-$1,000 Yamaha RX-V2700 Receiver or $499 Emotiva LPA-1 Amp?
Krell use special circuitry?
http://www.krellonline.com/krell_component.php?id=90&page=FBI
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=451511&CTID=5000300&ATRID=1020&DETYP=ATTRIBUTE
http://www.emotiva.com/lpa1.html
Classpro
03-13-2007, 07:13 PM
Receivers have a lot of crap in them - tuners, tone controls, lots of switches, etc. All of that stuff can add noise. In addition, high-end separates use better parts than main-line receivers. That said, the new all digital receivers are eliminating some of the advantages of separates. I'm not saying a $200 panisonic receiver is going to sound better than a $20,000 Krell, just that the differences may be less than they once were (and may not justify to my ears the difference in price, even if I had the $20K to spend on the Krell, which I don't). I would expect that most of us hanging around the Ascend site are budget minded - the people paying $20,000 for power cords are likely hanging out somewhere else. It would be odd for someone to buy a $20K Krell amp and ascend speakers. Cool but odd.
I read Stereophile, and I think a lot of what they review is madness. It would be a much more interesting magazine if they reviewed more budget-minded equipment and didn't give a similar positive review to everything.
Ascends are easy to drive, as are most bookshelf speakers today. I have a pair of B&W 801s Series 80 (circa 1980s), and they are really hard to drive - I need a 200+ watt amp. Similarly, planer speakers (magnapan) and electrostatic can be really hard to drive - requiring high-power separates capable of dealing with those odd impedance drops. But you should not have any problems with a traditional modern bookshelf speaker. I'm not saying you can't blow them out, but you should have no problem with normal use. Music sounds just as good at normal volumes as it does stretched to the limit. It's bad for your hearing to play at rock concert levels. My wife always complains that I play my music too loud, but I never play music louder than a live symphony orchestra. A 50-100 watt receiver should be fine. Heck, you could probably run the smaller bookshelves with a T-Amp (10 watts on a good day).
curtis
03-13-2007, 07:28 PM
I know it brings up a debate, but I believe Ascends benefit more from a quality front-end than more power.
I know it brings up a debate, but I believe Ascends benefit more from a quality front-end than more power.
But, do you think the Ascends, particularly the 340's, benefit from a separate amp vs a mid priced receiver (under $500)? I am talking about a budget minded amp and I'll use the Emotiva LPA-1 and Outlaw 7125 as an example.
curtis
03-13-2007, 07:54 PM
But, do you think the Ascends, particularly the 340's, benefit from a separate amp vs a mid priced receiver (under $500)? I am talking about a budget minded amp and I'll use the Emotiva LPA-1 and Outlaw 7125 as an example.
IMO, it depends on the quality of the amps. I have no experience with the LPA-1 or the 7125.
Rather than looking at budget minded amps, assuming you are looking at new ones, I would look at used higher end amps.
Robert7
03-13-2007, 09:07 PM
Even though I have 170's as mains and the 340se as center. It is my opinion that either one of these speakers benefit from better (more expensive electronics). But you simply have to hear for yourself. I did an A/B comparison between a Marantz sr8400 (retail 1,600) and a Classe pre + Marsh amp (retail 5,000+). The Marantz was nice but compared to the seperates it was thin and more 2 dimensional. The seperates offered a thicker more three dimensional presentation of the music which to my ears was much preferred. These speakers are amazing at moving alot of air while maintaning clarity. I can blast them and they dont seem to flinch. They don't seem to cloud the sound at all. So the better your electronics the better they sound. It's hard to believe they could sound much better mated with electronics 5-6,000 and above.
ajt976
03-13-2007, 10:00 PM
Is anyone using or have heard the 340SE's with say a Parasound A21 or A23? These are the two amps that I'm looking into. I'm currently running all 340's up front with an HK 635. It does an great job now, but I'm curious to see what the 340's will sound like driven by a decent quality separate amp.
curtis
03-13-2007, 10:04 PM
Is anyone using or have heard the 340SE's with say a Parasound A21 or A23? These are the two amps that I'm looking into. I'm currently running all 340's up front with an HK 635. It does an great job now, but I'm curious to see what the 340's will sound like driven by a decent quality separate amp.
those are suppose to be outstanding amps, but from I have read, can get pretty warm(heat, not sound).
ajt976
03-13-2007, 10:08 PM
those are suppose to be outstanding amps, but from I have read, can get pretty warm(heat, not sound).
Hmm...maybe I'll have to look into some type of cooling system. They've got some gnarly looking heat sinks on the sides though, they run the entire side of the amp.
curtis
03-13-2007, 11:03 PM
Hmm...maybe I'll have to look into some type of cooling system. They've got some gnarly looking heat sinks on the sides though, they run the entire side of the amp.
I am sure those heatsinks will be fine.
Gov - did you end up getting an amp?
Yep....I picked up the LPA-1 and it is working out great!! I mainly got it for more headroom and piece of mind. At times, I really like to push the SPL's up over the 100db mark and I feel better letting the LPA-1 do it.
I spoke to "Lonnie" at Emotiva. He was one of the engineers that worked on the LPA-1. He says it can do some amazing things and was very conservatively rated.
I'm glad you're enjoying the amp this time. Sometimes we second guess ourselves too much and ruin the fun.
Thanks Gov....keep enjoying the set-up! I recently sold my 1014 and really miss it at times.
Sangone
03-22-2007, 09:39 PM
My very first post here. I have been in the "planning" phase of my HT for some time. Our kitchen and the family room (where the HT will be built) were demo'ed two weeks ago and remodeling should be all done by end of April.
After much research, I intend on buying the 340SE's for LCR and hope they fit my needs. They will be paired w/ 2 sets of in-ceiling surrounds (I know they are not the most ideal) and Hsu VTF-3 MKIII powered sub. Up until this week, my mind was set on buying an AVR (Marantz SR8001) but have recently become concerned about some of the issues current owners have been posting.
I was reading on the AVS forum about the Emotiva pre/pro and amps and I'm convinced this will be the direction I will go. I came here to get opinions about separates and more specifically the LMC-1 + LPA-1 and saw this post. The opinions here were very helpful.
Hopefully these components will match up well.
caveman
08-27-2008, 04:33 PM
I just purchased a parasound HCA 855A 85x5.For the most part I'm really happy with my reciever, an HK AVR 240, however,one of it's greatest strength's is also the reason at some point I may have to replace it.Going through reviews I noticed the 245, and 247, although nearly identical to the 240 in other respects, were rated lower for what seemed to be mostly video processing issues (lots of them HDMI related), or so it seemed, for video processing issues.The 240 has no HDMI so the spotlight stayed on it's original purpose......sound reproduction.Seems like there's a lot of this about in general.Because of things like this, format wars, integration of sound and video processing, I've been looking harder at seperate compnents.
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