Ascend's with hi-rez music

[stumacdo]

Hi,

I currently have 340's SE's front and 170's rear and utilize my setup for listening to a lot of hi-rez music, specifically SACD. I've noticed that with multichannel recordings where there's a dedicated bass signal, the sound is fantastic. However, many of these SACD's are stereo only and without a specific signal being sent to the sub, the sound seems to be lacking in the bass area. My HK AVR does not allow for bass management on the analog inputs utilized for SACD so I'm out of luck there. I currently have my speakers set as 'large'. Would anyone in a similar situation recommend setting them to 'small' and running the wires from the AVR to the Sub to the 340's ? Thanks in advance.

[tp7539]

I'm about to purchase a 7.1 ascends system, and will use the analog outputs for HD DVD, WMV HD, and DVD Audio playback. So I'm very curious to know how I'm going to be able to manage the bass (since my receiver just offers passthrough with no bass management). I'm going to be running my sources from a new, high pc.......so I'm hoping that a new VISTA operating system will allow me to send some bass to the subwoofer in this situation.

But with no experience with this high rez music and movies over analog, I have no idea how this all works and what settings to use.

I'm thinking that i'll always leave my speakers set to small....but who knows.

[curtis]

Does your SACD player offer bass management? Most do.

[stumacdo]

Does your SACD player offer bass management? Most do.

Unfortunately not (unless it's buried in a sub-menu I've never seen). I've got one of those massive Sony CD/DVD jukeboxes (pretty recent late 2005 model).

[curtis]

Many folks use the Outlaw ICBM for external bass management with great success. Unfortunately, they are discontinued, but you can find them once in a while on Audiogon and eBay.

http://outlawaudio.com/products/icbm.html

[stumacdo]

Would I need to go the route of the Outlaw ICBM or could I just run my speaker wire from the AVR to the Sub to the 340's so that the sub would pick up the lower frequency signals for the 2-channel music ?

[curtis]

Would I need to go the route of the Outlaw ICBM or could I just run my speaker wire from the AVR to the Sub to the 340's so that the sub would pick up the lower frequency signals for the 2-channel music ?
It would not cost much to try it.

Would you still use the RCA connection for movies? I am not sure if you can use the low level RCA connection and the high level speaker connection at the same time.

[stumacdo]

It would not cost much to try it.

Would you still use the RCA connection for movies? I am not sure if you can use the low level RCA connection and the high level speaker connection at the same time.

I would think I'd still use the RCA connection, not only for movies but also when listening to multi-channel surround music via SACD or DVD-A. On those multi-channel discs, a separate signal is typically sent to the sub via the RCA. I would think this would only be an issue if the main 340's were also receiving bass signals. Then again, I'm not sure which is why I figured I'd post ;)

[curtis]

A signal would still be passing through both connections at the same time. I would contact the specific sub manufacturer to make sure.


On those multi-channel discs, a separate signal is typically sent to the sub via the RCA.
Yes...but it is a specific signal that is not created by a crossover. In those cases, the mains could still be receiving bass signals.

[stumacdo]

A signal would still be passing through both connections at the same time. I would contact the specific sub manufacturer to make sure.


Yes...but it is a specific signal that is not created by a crossover. In those cases, the mains could still be receiving bass signals.

I'm trying to think of (oh, the horror !!!) my pre-Ascend days with a Bo*e satellite/sub setup. I know that the satellite speakers went into the sub from the AVR and then out to the sat speakers. I just can't remember if there was a unique RCA running from the Bo*e sub to the AVR.

I'm embarassed to even cop to the statement that I had that system prior to my Ascend set-up :eek:

[bikeman]

I'm embarassed to even cop to the statement that I had that system prior to my Ascend set-up :eek:
I paid more for that companie's speakers 35 years ago than I paid for (3) 340SE's last year. I consider it an educational expense. :p

David

[stumacdo]

I paid more for that companie's speakers 35 years ago than I paid for (3) 340SE's last year. I consider it an educational expense. :p

David

I'm currently selling off bits & pieces of it via eBay. Absolutely amazing to me that people will spend close to $200 for the Center Channel. What did PT Barnum say..... "there's a sucker born every minute". I'm just hoping one will unload it off me so I can upgrade my other sound system with Ascend's. :p

[Classpro]

Bikeman:

I've been reading your posts. We are both in Syracuse, and have both independently discovered the wonders of the budget-worthy Panny SA-XR55 receiver. I believe we also both have Dayton subs as well (mine is several years old, and not that great).

I'm thinking seriously about getting some new bookshelf speakers for a bedroom system. Currently using the Panny with NHT superzeros and a small Athena sub. I'm wondering whether the Ascend bookshelves or the AV-123 Xls would make a worthy improvement (in terms of cost).

I've read that you have both ascends and the AV-123s, and preferred the Ascends acoustically. Can you be more specific about the sonic differences? I'd appreciate your thoughts.

[bikeman]

I've read that you have both ascends and the AV-123s, and preferred the Ascends acoustically. Can you be more specific about the sonic differences? I'd appreciate your thoughts.
My home is ususally open. Stop by and we'll use your ears instead of mine. Let me know what works for you.

David

[Classpro]

Bikeman: I've sent you a PM. That was a very generous offer, and if you're sure I would not be intruding, I would like that very much.

[bikeman]

Greg came by this afternoon and brought some of his classical CD's with him. Greg's been around audio for many years so he was quite familiar with how things needed to be set up he knew exactly what he was listening for. I didn't have to do anything except eat pizza and enjoy some new music.
If Classical is your thing, here some excellent picks for auditioning speakers.

Paul Galbraith
Bach sonatas & Partitas
8 String Classical Guitar

Byron Janis Plays Moussogsky
Pictures at an Exhibition
Piano

Janos Starker
Bach Suites for Solo Cello

I'll be looking into Galbraith. His style and his guitar are unique. Somewhat like a cellist hybrid. I'll post a link when I get a bit more time.

Greg will be posting his impressions. Most of you already know mine so I won't repeat myself. A really enjoyable afternoon. Miserable snowy and windy weather outside and good music inside.

David

[cyberbri]

Check the manual on the Sony changer. If you don't have it anymore, you might be able to find it online. But if you go into the setup and search around, you might find speaker settings somewhere. I assume it has 6 analog outs.


As far as the sonic differences between Ascends and x-ls go, I have 340SEs (170SEs as surrounds), and I'm demoing a set of x-ls right now. So I'll just give my thoughts.

The Ascends have a very transparent, airy (bright but not fatiguing), detailed sound - plus they are very flat.

The x-ls have a bit of a mid-bass hump (good for 2-channel listening) and are a bit laid back or slightly warm or muffled in the highs. They have a big sound and sound very good with acoustic guitars (plucking and strumming).

One sound isn't "better" than the other per se, as it's all subjective. I'd say the Ascends are more accurate. And I personally prefer the Ascends. But the x-ls are a fantastic speaker, and they look fantastic too. I think there are some x-ls mods or new editions coming soon, and with a crossover upgrade they supposedly and should sound better. That may improve (subjectively anyway) the highs.

I suggest you try a pair of both in your own home. It is definitely enlightening.


I said I have the Ascends and am demoing some x-ls. But actually yesterday I had some local friends over and we demoed a bunch more. We had my 340SEs, the x-ls, some Rocket Onix ELTs (great speakers! I liked them more than the x-ls, but the ELTs are discontinued), Mordaunt Short 902s, and GR Acoustics AV1s (very similar to the x-ls, but they sound a bit better). I was watching my 2 1/2yo for most of the time, but got to listen enough to hear the differences and expand my horizons. But surprisingly they all sounded quite similar. The differences mainly become apparent when you listen to them back to back with the same material.

The main differences I heard between the speakers were in the highs with the tweeters, although I didn't get to sit on the couch and do any critical listening there. So I couldn't pay attention to the mids and other areas.

For a bedroom system, the x-ls need about a foot of space behind them or they can start to sound muddy or bloated. They're rear-ported and have a bit of a hump in the bass region. For that reason, something like the sealed HTM-200s with a small sub might be a good choice for a bedroom system.


But hearing them all made me realize there are a lot of great speakers out there for $200~400, way way way better than the cheap HTiB and el-cheapo speakers found at B&Ms. I could probably be happy with any of the speakers we had here. But listening side by side, or back to back if you will, will really show you the differences (how great or little they may be) and let you HEAR and decide for yourself what speakers and what kind of sound you like.

BTW, I have bass traps and side reflection point panels (and a panel behind my center speaker), all from GIK Acoustics. The room isn't perfect acoustically, but it's a good shape, and the panels mean I have better sound from whatever speakers I put in here than most people (who don't treat the room). So I hear more of the speakers' sound and less of the way the room colors that sound.


HTH


-Brian

[Classpro]

Ascend 340 v. AV123 X-LS v. NHT Superzero

I had the pleasure of listening to these three speakers, side by side, at Bikeman’s house last weekend. I have owned the NHT Superzeros since 1994. They are tiny bookshelf speakers – a bit smaller than the Ascend 200s. They were designed to be used with a sub. They have NO low end on their own. The speakers are very well made - extremely heavy, solid cabinet. They have a highly-polished “piano black” finish. For years, I had a great deal of trouble integrating them into an audio system with a stereo receiver. It was only after I acquired a Panasonic SA-XR-55 HT receiver that I was able to get them to blend properly with a subwoofer.

I have read very positive reviews of both the X-LS (which sells for $225 plus shipping), and the Ascend 340 (which sells for $568 plus shipping), and was looking forward to hearing a comparison between the three speakers.

We started with the X-LS, which is a beautifully finished light-wood veneered speaker. It has the look of a much more expensive speaker, that’s for sure, and is much larger than the Superzeros. We first listened to the X-LSes full range, and they sounded quite good. My only criticism was that there was a slight edginess to the mids/highs, especially when pushed.

In order to attempt an apples-to-apples comparison, we then set the receiver to cross over to a subwoofer at 100hz, and then played the speakers with the sub off. This would allow us to compare the sound of the X-LSes with the Superzeros for use with a sub. Of course, both speakers sounded tinny without any low frequencies. But it enabled us to make a proper comparison. In the end, I preferred the sound of my old NHT’s to the X-LSes with the 100hz crossover in effect. They were a little less edgy and had similar detail. Of course, the NHTs would be a very poor choice in a full range speaker, while the X-LSes would work full range quite well.

As a budget speaker, with a beautiful impressive-looking finish, the X-LS is a great buy. I’ve never seen a $225 speaker that looked so nice. Yet, I was disappointed with it. I do not feel that it represents an acoustic improvement over well designed budget bookshelf speakers from other manufacturers, and did not feel that it bested my 10 year old NHTs for use in a sub-stat system. It’s an easy speaker to recommend at the price, but it left me wanting better.

The Ascend 340 was very different from the X-LS in many ways. In the first place, it is not very attractive to look at. It has a spray-painted black finish, and I thought it looked rather funky on its bases. It did not fit together with the base cleanly to look like a real floor standing speaker. To tell you the truth, I think the Ascends look cheap – which they are not. The X-LS finish is far superior. But sound quality is another matter entirely. The Ascends had sweet clean highs without any edginess, a detailed midrange, excellent imaging and transparency, and tight clear bass (although not terribly deep). We were listening in a very small room, quite close to the speakers, so didn’t have a chance to play the speakers very loud, but they sounded awfully good. Ascend has obviously put the money in high-quality components and careful design, and it shows in the very fine sound quality. It’s not a “show off” speaker in any respect. No great low bass to rattle your bones, and a rather natural, laid-back presentation. Of course, the 340s with stands are nearly three times as expensive as the X-LSes, and do not look nearly as nice. But the sound quality was undeniable. Acoustic guitar and piano sounded right and very pleasing. Choral music sounded very good. One could listen to the 340s for hours at a time, without tiring, and with great pleasure.

I suspect we all want a speaker that sounds like the Ascends, but looks and is priced like the X-LS. I’m sure Ascend diehards will deny this – some may even like the cheap looking exterior knowing that it made for a bargain on the inside components and sound quality. But I would prefer a better aesthetic. I was hoping that the X-LS would be the speaker that had it all, but it was not (for me), so I’m a bit disappointed in it. That’s probably not a fair comment on such a pretty $225.00 speaker, but that’s how I feel.

On the other hand, the sound of the Ascends is still singing in my ears. I wouldn’t be surprised if I ended up buying the 170s as replacements for my Superzeros.

I would like to get a pair of floor standing speakers for my family room, but I’m just not sold on the 340s with its funky stands. IMO, Ascend really needs to make a true one-piece floor standing speaker with deeper low-end performance to round out its line. I think that would be a big hit at the $800-$1,000 price point. I know someone who is looking for a floorstanding speaker, but I have doubts about recommending the funky large bookshelf + stand setup that Ascend offers for the 340s. I think he’d love the sound, but not the aesthetics.

There are other speakers I’d like to hear – the new NHT absolute twos, threes and fours, the new Paradigm Atom v. 5, Epos ELS-3, the new SVS bookshelf speaker, and the new PSB Alphas. All are getting great reviews, but how to hear them? With so many new speakers being released, I may decide to wait a bit longer to see if a consensus is generated for any of these new speakers. In the mean time, the Ascends are the small bookshelf speakers to beat.

[cyberbri]

classpro,

I agree with your assessment of the x-ls's and the 340SEs.
Except I like the finish of the 340SEs better than you do, and I think they look very nice on their stands. I would love to have the sound of the 340SEs in a cabinet like the blonde maple color of the x-ls (sitting in my living room now) since it would go well with my furniture, but the 340SEs do very good by me. But I would love to have some 340SEs (or floor-standers) in nice wood finish cabinets. :eek: :D

[bikeman]

classpro,
I agree with your assessment of the x-ls's and the 340SEs.
Except I like the finish of the 340SEs better than you do, and I think they look very nice on their stands.
This is probably the only thing Greg (Classpro) and I disagree on. I like the looks of the 340's and my wife tolerates it because it is understated and dosen't call attention to itself. She's not a fan of real wood veener speakers because she hasn't seen any that work with her decor.
Nice write-up, Greg. We'll havta do it again sometime.

David

[Classpro]

Ok, they are not ugly. Just very plain. If you unhooked them, replaced the Ascend logo with SONY, and put them on the floor at Kmart, no one would give them a second glance. With the grills on, they just don't look like the high-end audiophile speakers that they are.

David: did you get my email with links to various things?

[Quinn]

I'd long ago noticed speaker owners fall into two categories; those of not wanting speakers as the focal point of a room and those who want them to be the eye candy in their room.

[curtis]

What about ear candy?

[bikeman]

What about ear candy?
I don't often get the opportunity but tonight my wife has the late shift and I got a chance to turn the lights off, get a roaring fire going in the wood stove and crank em up to a point where the SPL meter was applying for political asylum. Ear Candy. Yes. :D

David

[Quinn]

I don't often get the opportunity but tonight my wife has the late shift and I got a chance to turn the lights off, get a roaring fire going in the wood stove and crank em up to a point where the SPL meter was meter was applying for political asylum. Ear Candy. Yes. :D

David

I had the A/C on today. :D

[Kpt_Krunch]

Many folks use the Outlaw ICBM for external bass management with great success. Unfortunately, they are discontinued, but you can find them once in a while on Audiogon and eBay.

http://outlawaudio.com/products/icbm.html

Wow - discontinued - glad I got mine when I did. For bass management - the ICBM can take the cheapest SACD/DVD-A player and make it sound like a $2000 machine - only much easier to use (with dial analog buttons).

For the OP - if you can find an ICBM - get it. Well worth the $200 (new - don't know what they are used).