Modded Ascends?

[rajacat]

Has anybody modded their Ascends?

Raja

[Lou-the-dog]

Has anybody modded their Ascends?

Raja


Them is hangin' words around these parts pardner. :eek:

Randy

[rajacat]

Why? Most other "audiophile grade" speakers have forums which discuss possible mods.

Raja

[PLincoln]

what's there to mod? they sound great out of the box

[BradJudy]

I haven't. Perhaps a good question to ask is if DaveF would choose different crossover components if he didn't have to worry about budget (I'm not sure what you want to mod other than the crossover). I suppose you could try different cabinet filler. I wouldn't expect different wire or binding posts to make a difference.

[Quinn]

There is someone around who modded some 170 classics. I've heard mixed reviews from those that have heard them. The one comment I remember is better bass extension but it was at the cost of the usual great Ascend mids.

I'm kind of the opinion of if these modders are so good how come no one has hired them as designers? Or why don't they design their own speakers like Dave F. has?

[Quinn]

Other thoughts-

1. Ascend's market is generally people wanting value. They aren't likely to spend another $300 on their speakers to try to eek out more performance.

2. Ascend designed the drivers and tweeters so modders don't have any experience with them. Whereas many other companies use off the shelf drivers and tweeters. All the measurements of those are readily availible and all a modder would need is to plug the cabinet in to their computer models.

3. Ascend's sales volume. It doesn't make much sense for a modder to spend the time and money on developing an Ascend mod rather than something with a higher sales volume.

[BradJudy]

I'm not sure what the OP intended, but I didn't read it as having a professional modify Ascends, I was thinking he meant replacing components with equivalent botique components or something like that. No measurement, sales volumes, or designers - just people tweaking their own speakers.

[rajacat]

I'm not sure what the OP intended, but I didn't read it as having a professional modify Ascends, I was thinking he meant replacing components with equivalent botique components or something like that. No measurement, sales volumes, or designers - just people tweaking their own speakers.

Yeah, I was curious if any Ascend owners have modded their own speakers, not just sent them off to professional modders. Perhaps there are some simple and inexpensive tweaks that an amateur could do that would improve the already excellent sound quality but David F. could not add to the stock speaker because of cost constraints.

Raja

[GirgleMirt]

This popped to my mind when reading the thread :p

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1158901779668604713&q=volkswagen+commercial
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1948433946923483148&q=volkswagen+commercial
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-822005252129630544&q=volkswagen+commercial

Most ricer ca (http://www.riceboypage.com/)... ahem.. modded cars look ridiculous IMHO vs the original car. The wings they add... Ooops.. wrong subject.

The volks commercial pretty much has it right. Is it possible to tweak the crossover? Sure... But why would you want to do it? Do you really think you could do a better job? If so, then I guess its worth a try, and if you somehow manage to do it, email Ascend with your improvements, I'm sure they'd love to hear about it :p

Some speakers have poorly designed crossovers which could be fixed (ex: http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=RTi28.html), but then if you really wanted to mod your speakers, you probably shouldn't have bought Ascends because but I doubt they need any fixing, just look at their FR measurements...

Besides... What would be left... tweaking the cabinet.. the drivers... all meh. The only worthwhile mod I see would be buying an unfinished cabinet and finishing it yourself... Replacing crossover parts with exotic resistances/capacitators/wires/connectors? Meh... I doubt that would make an audible difference... My uneducated guess is that even if you bought for 300$ of exotic parts to upgrade the crossover parts, you'd be scratching your head trying to differentiate an unmodded pair to a modded pair in a blind test...

[edit] Or maybe... You could build whole new cabinets!!! Yep that might be fun, use a ton of bracing, put two or three layers of 1 inch high density fibreboard for the box and make each one weight in at like... 150 pounds :D (fillable of course!) Again, I'm not quite sure it would make an audible difference, but besides labour and material costs, it would cost nothing, and THAT, would be sumthin! :p

[GirgleMirt]

oh! If you want real 'mod' that works, room treatment. The room makes a HUGE difference. Also placement plays a key role... And placement is free!

[Lou-the-dog]

Why? Most other "audiophile grade" speakers have forums which discuss possible mods.

Raja

Actually your question is a valid one. I just had never considered that there may be a home-mod that would make much difference in sound quality. The most likely tweek to Ascends might be a veneered cabinet like Brad's beautiful 170's.

Randy

[rajacat]

You're right that any comment that might be construed to slight Ascend's in any way might start a war and some sarcastic posts. :eek: However, I was surfing thought the Magnaplaner forum and there is a quite lively discussion on mods and such other tweaks like improving the stands, placement and improving bass response with the addition of a subwoofer. Sometimes upgrading the internal wiring or some other internal tweak might improve the SQ noticeably. I always thought that tweaking your system was part of the fun. :) The better your rig is, the more likely it is to actually hear improvements in SQ with some minor tweak. I was lucky enough to come across a deal on some high end interconnects and speaker cable on a forum and they really made a substantial improvement in the low and middle end on my Ascend 340se's. The difference was not subtle and anybody would have noticed. It was the best $125 I've spent but I'm sure that if you bought those cables retail they would have cost $500+.

Raja

[GirgleMirt]

You're right that any comment that might be construed to slight Ascend's in any way might start a war and some sarcastic posts.
I hope you're not referring to me because I don't even own Ascends (yet) :p :D


I was lucky enough to come across a deal on some high end interconnects and speaker cable on a forum and they really made a substantial improvement in the low and middle end on my Ascend 340se's

Howcome? Were you using defective RCA cables before? Or were you using speaker cable with a too small gauge for their length? Did you make a double blind test or at least a blind test to confirm your impressions?


Sometimes upgrading the internal wiring or some other internal tweak might improve the SQ noticeably
In some instances if the manufacturer is cheaping out and using inadequate parts, replacing that part might make a difference, but if one part is functionning properly, you'll probably endup with no or negligible differences by replacing it with another...


The better your rig is, the more likely it is to actually hear improvements in SQ with some minor tweak.
Its the opposite, the better your rig is, the less you should have to mod and tweak it :) Ex: Great speakers have less potential gain by modding than crap speakers.


The problem in audio is that there's two school of thoughts. There's the realistic and then there's the esoteric... Example, interconects. 100$ "interconnect" vs 2$ radio shack RCA cable. The realistics say that if you measure two RCA cables and they measure the same, they are the same so they will sound the same. The esoteric group instead listens to them for differences and then say (think) that they can hear differences between them. The realistics then say that its the placebo effect because they ARE the same, while the esoterics say they really can hear differences.

So which one is right? Without a blind test, sadly, the esoteric will stay esoterics, and continue to hear differences where there are none. If you look around the web, you can find countless ridiculous tweaks... shakti stone... magic crystals... 100$ dongles to lift speaker wire off the ground... sparkly stickers to put on cds... bullet shaped alluminum slugs to put on top of speakers to improve sound... fancy speaker cables etc.. etc.. There's really no shortage of them... They all have their believers, who sadly never DBT'd them and really think they make a difference...

One of the appeal to me about Ascend is that they really sound like a no BS company :)

To quote the 340's specs:

The heart of our 340 main is its advanced bi-wireable crossover, featuring only the finest crossover materials including polyester-film bypass capacitors, air-core inductors and gold plated binding posts.

Like I said, I really don't think its worth the bother to try to mod the crossover... But hey you never know, maybe David could shine in and give us a list of possible improvements, but my guess, they wouldn't be cost/performance effective, and wouldn't yield any real performance improvement... If they would, I'm pretty sure they would have already been included in the speakers...

[edit]Oh, btw, interesting read about speaker wire (http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm): Check out the part about "Gordon Gow's Speaker Wire Listening Test"

Well actually I don't wanna start the whole RCA cable/speaker wire debate... But my point is that Ascend strikes me as a no BS company which really tries its best to offer the best product they can they for the price. (But maybe its just markerting, I'll have to wait until I hear them :p ;)) As such, and after looking at reviews/measurements/etc, I seriously doubt you could improve their speaker performance by messing with the crossover or by replacing some of their components... Using silver wiring? Exotic resistances? Meh... Be glad they don't advertise they use such things and charge 50% more for the speakers!

[BradJudy]

Well actually I don't wanna start the whole RCA cable/speaker wire debate

Then why did you? Half of your post was giving Raja a hard time about liking the cables he bought.

[S_rangeBrew]

Me modding my Ascends would be like me modding a Formula 1 car. Probably not a good thing. :o

However me modding my turbocharged 4cyl has reaped great rewards... I've gone from 200 hp to over 300hp. That's because it was hobbled from the start... like white van speakers.

Ascends are not white van speakers, they have good stuff in them already.

I'm strongly of the opinion that once you get beyond the Ascend price range, you are dabbling in "percieved" value added. Your ears are not going to notice a big difference. Your wallet will.

Like another poster said, spending your "modding" time on getting room treatments, speaker placement and EQ settings right is gonna make a much bigger difference. Spend the time on that.

[rajacat]

Girgle..... Using your logic that expensive and esoteric parts don't matter then it follows that David F. should have installed the very cheapest wiring and other electronic parts in his speakers to save money because the parts don't matter anyway. Why go for the gold plated binding posts when you could do just as well with the least expensive spring loaded plain steel wire clips?

I imagine you will be always stuck in middle fidelity because of your closed mind and/or substandard hearing. You tell me that the "placebo effect" is responsible any improvement I perceived when I replaced my interconnects and speaker cable with high end cables that I bought for bargain. How in the **** do you know? You are making assumption with incomplete facts. My former cables consisted of moderately priced cable that can be purchased at Radio Shack but definitely good enough for middle fidelity. BTW what is the makeup of your rig? ****?

I do agree that acoustical improvements are perhaps the most cost effective way to improve SQ.

I started this thread with an innocent inquiry that on many other speaker forums would seem entirely appropriate. I'm surprised that you are an Ascend "fanboy" when you don't even own a pair.

Raja

[Jonnyozero3]

easy fellas...

[rajacat]

easy fellas...
Sorry to shake up the tree house. I guess that there are other less controversial topics like comparing one receiver to another. On the other hand don't all amps and receivers sound the same? :D

Raja

[S_rangeBrew]

Girgle..... Using your logic that expensive and esoteric parts don't matter then it follows that David F. should have installed the very cheapest wiring and other electronic parts in his speakers to save money because the parts don't matter anyway.
I don't think he was saying that, he was saying there is a point of diminishing returns. After a certain point, the improvements are small. At what point that is.... well, that's up to your ears to decide.



Why go for the gold plated binding posts when you could do just as well with the least expensive spring loaded plain steel wire clips?
I can answer this one... corrosion resistance. Plain copper actually has better conductivity, but it tends to turn green when exposed to air. Not pretty. A thin coat of gold looks good, doesn't corrode, and does a decent job of condutivity compared to other options.


I imagine you will be always stuck in middle fidelity because of your closed mind and/or substandard hearing. You tell me that the "placebo effect" is responsible any improvement I perceived when I replaced my interconnects and speaker cable with high end cables that I bought for bargain. How in the **** do you know? You are making assumption with incomplete facts. My former cables consisted of moderately priced cable that can be purchased at Radio Shack but definitely good enough for middle fidelity. BTW what is the makeup of your rig? ****?

I do agree that acoustical improvements are perhaps the most cost effective way to improve SQ.

I started this thread with an innocent inquiry that on many other speaker forums would seem entirely appropriate. I'm surprised that you are an Ascend "fanboy" when you don't even own a pair.

Raja

He was just stating a opinion that many of us agree with. Hi-fi cables are snake oil. Simple as that. Don't take it personally. Let's not start with the personal insults. Just because someone has a different opinion, we shouldn't be mean about it.

BTW, I think the original post was appropriate, and the follow ups have been generally appropriate, but need to be worded a little less harshly.

[rajacat]

It's funny but I was a skeptic too when it came to cables and have used various garden variety cables in the past without experiencing any difference in SQ. In this case, I changed my tune because I experienced a VERY noticeable improvement in SQ especially with the addition of the shielded and very stiff interconnects which replaced the middle of the line Monster interconnects

I have come to the opinion that relatively minor tweaks such as new cables will not be noticeable unless the whole system is capable of very fine resolution. It is a Gestalt that we are dealing with in that it is how all the parts interact with each other that determines the outcome. A typical ghetto blaster will not benefit from high end speaker cables.

Raja

[GirgleMirt]

David F. should have installed the very cheapest wiring and other electronic parts in his speakers to save money because the parts don't matter anyway
I've said the exact opposite:
Like I said, I really don't think its worth the bother to try to mod the crossover [...] wouldn't be cost/performance effective, and wouldn't yield any real performance improvement... If they would, I'm pretty sure they would have already been included in the speakers...


Why go for the gold plated binding posts when you could do just as well with the least expensive spring loaded plain steel wire clips?
Well.. 1) Gold plating. You have to look at the purpose of gold plated binding posts. Whats the #1 reason to gold plate? Its that gold doesn't get corroded and corrosion can be detrimental to having a good contacts. 2) spring loaded? Again, its performance vs cost. David chose to go with quality parts instead of cheaping out... But then again, he didn't go for the esoteric stuff, where ONE connector (WBT, Cardas, etc.) can cost like 75$ or more.... Hell, the price for the 8 connectors would be as much as the total cost of the 340s!!!!

Why didn't he do it and use those connectors? Because they're not worth it. I'm 100% sure no self proclaimed golden ears could tell the difference in a blind test... The regular connectors do the job perfectly. So is it worth it to jack up the price of the 340s to 1500$ because of the connectors? Wbt/Cardas can probably explain why they make a difference... And sure maybe in A/B a 'golden ear' guy would be able to tell you what he (thinks he) hears, but the problem is that it pretty much always falls apart in a blind test...


I imagine you will be always stuck in middle fidelity because of your closed mind and/or substandard hearing. You tell me that the "placebo effect" is responsible any improvement I perceived when I replaced my interconnects and speaker cable with high end cables that I bought for bargain. How in the **** do you know? You are making assumption with incomplete facts. My former cables consisted of moderately priced cable that can be purchased at Radio Shack but definitely good enough for middle fidelity. BTW what is the makeup of your rig? ****?
Sorry if I came out sounding offensive... But you didn't answer my question. Did you ever do a blind test to confirm your results? I did. I actually participated in one for interconnects, where the results turned out negative. Existing data conclude the same thing (see here for example (http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_data.htm)). I'm not saying there's no difference between your RCA cables, maybe there is, some cables are actually made to alter the signal (but these are usually VERY expensive, and doesn't really fit the description of 'cable' since they alter the signal) but the only way to make sure is to make some sort of listening test where the placebo effect can be eliminated.

Because in the end, all that matters is the difference it makes on the sound... It might do a measurable difference, but if you can't distinguish it in a blind test, its certainly not worth it to invest your money on it.. (well to me at least...)


I started this thread with an innocent inquiry that on many other speaker forums would seem entirely appropriate. I'm surprised that you are an Ascend "fanboy" when you don't even own a pair.
Now now... no need for name calling :) The only thing I did was give my honest opinion.

The same would have been done with basically any serious loudspeaker. Totem, Dynaudio, BW, NHT, Vandersteen, and the hundreds of others... When you buy speakers of a certain quality, you already bought above minimum quality parts. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see speakers of this level a little bit like a Porche. You're already bought something of above quality. Where someone might buy a Civic and try to mod it to get it to something like a sports car is one thing, but once you get something which has been designed by pros for performance, having Joe Bloe try to enhance its performance is bound to yield limited results.

Sure you can take a Porches and replace its hood by a carbon fiber hood... But whats the point. It'll cost you 5000$ and won't make any significant difference in handling, top speed or acceleration... So might as well put some $ down for advanced driving courses or something... (placement, room treatment, etc)


I imagine you will be always stuck in middle fidelity because of your closed mind and/or substandard hearing
"substandard hearing" Thats funny! :D I do believe there's a hint of truth in your comments though. I try to remain as objective as I can in anything... Last time I went to an audioshop to see possible upgrades, I demo'd some stuff... A fancy cd player (5000$), fancy DAC (5000$), fancy amp (5000$), fancy speaker and RCA cables (500$+?), etc.. I wasn't even sure if it was placebo or I was really hearing differences as the guy was chaging components... I also went to a few audio shows listen to systems costing more than a car...

Then when I get home and listen to my mid fi gear, I don't feel the urge to withdraw 10000$ from my bank account to blow on audio gear... Maybe you're right, maybe I don't have as good ears as others because midfi so far is plenty good for me, so I don't think about blowing so much money on the insanely priced audio stuff...

I just put money where I think its worth it... (cdn$)

350$(used) NAD 541 cdp (bit of a waste of money IMHO)
400$ Behringer DEQ2496 Digital EQ (great! especially for digital out of lappy for HT/music)
450$(used) QSC 1450 amp 280 watts amp (<-- very good!)
1400$ for Totem Sttaf speakers
15$ for your basic optical cables
20$ for your standard XLR cables
30$ for your standard 12 gauge speaker cable.. (replaced my 20$ 12 gauge Reno Depot solid core wire only because solid core is a PITA to use because it doesn' bend easily)

If I ever DID want to put serious $ for some part of my audio chain, I'd like to do a BT before.. To make sure I buy something which actually MAKES a difference and not something I think makes a difference.

While some may take pride in the fact that they got 300$ RCA cables, I take pride in using... well... non BS stuff... Like... You won't be catching me with crystals on my electronics, or painting my cd's, or 300$ worth of Cardas speaker cables, etc.. :D

[rajacat]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear and I was being a little sarcastic when I was referring to the spring loaded speaker terminals. It is hard for me to conduct a BT but I did do A/B over and over and the difference was clear. Even a scientific BT would have to be very well constructed to come to real world conclusions given the variability of systems, environments and the Gestalt referred to above. Also I believe you have to live with a system or tweaks for awhile to appreciate fine differences. Why else would most online speaker manufactures offer 30 day trials. Why not just a 5 day trial?

My system: Computer>stock SqueezeBox3 w/Bolder modded Power One Power Supply>Mhdt DAC>Mapletree line 3A tubed pre>Gainclone 100/ch @4ohms chip amp>Ascend 340SE's ---Omega Super 3 bipole single driver speakers ...used(will arrive next Tuesday)---Onix UFW-10 subwoofer.

Raja

[rajacat]

In my original question I never suggested that Ascends should be be modded but only inquiring if someone had opened them up and performed some tweaks.

On the VMPS forum (Audio Circle) they are constantly trying or suggesting tweaks to the RM30's and 40's and those are $3000+ speakers.

Raja

[GirgleMirt]

It is hard for me to conduct a BT but I did do A/B over and over and the difference was clear. Even a scientific BT would have to be very well constructed to come to real world conclusions given the variability of systems

Here's an easy way. Have someone else switch (or not switch) the interconnect say every 3 days (or 1 week or whatever), without you knowing :D Then write on a piece of paper which one you think you were listening to for that period. After say one or two months, compare both sheats and check out how many % of the time you were correct.

lol :p Thats an evil test because I don't think anyone could succeed at it :D

A/B and BT/DBTs are really different beasts. A/B encourages the placebo effect, BT/DBT eliminates it... Multiple A/B tests sadly doesn't eliminate the placebo effect...

Thats pretty much the reason I don't worry with upgrades. Speaker differences are obvious. Cd players, amps, much more subtle... So when demoing, it can be hard to tell real differences vs placebo... Cables... even worst... So if you have trouble differentiating them... Then its probably not worth it to invest money for it...

Some people claim to hear drastic differences... Well.. Maybe they got better ears than me... Some were even mouthing before the test, when we were A/Bing knowing which one was which, telling us to be careful to hear for this or that, telling us they hear this with IC A, and that with IC B... But they all failed pathetically for our interconnect test, which leads me that their hearing isn't really superior to mine, plus anecdotical evidence makes me believe the opposite but anyhow... Maybe they're just unaware of the placebo effect and the limitation of the human ear, acoustic memory, etc.. Suffice to say it was an eye opener for many of the participants... Though I wasn't very suprised by the results...

The most ridiculous thing IMHO, is that acoustic treatment, speaker placement and listener position, all make SIGNIFICANT differences. Much more evident change than any cdplayer or cable change... And these 3 are probably the most critical and most overlooked part of most systems...

Question: Why do you say: "Gainclone 100/ch @4ohms"? the 340s are 8 ohms, so why list the 4 ohms value instead of 8 ohms? My QSC is like 450 watts at 4ohms, and 800 at 2 ohms ;) (I win! :p)


Let us know how the Omegas turn out and compare to the 340s! For years I've been considering building a pair of Fostex fullrange speakers. The smaller drivers are suprisingly cheap (FE127E is about 125$ for a pair!), easy to build since you don't have to worry at all about the crossover and matching drivers, so all thats left is the box, and if you opt for an MLTL design, well, its a very simple build! The 207 is interesing also, especially for their sensitivity, but the FR is more erratic and they cost a bit more...

[rajacat]

The Gainclone I purchased from a DIY'er on Audiogon and that was the spec. he gave me. I don't know what it puts out at 8 ohms but it is substantially more powerful than the Panny XR55 that I owned previously and has lots more phat. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on AB testing. I believe that for that test to be meaningful it would need to be performed with a VERY good system and with people that are knowledgeable and have good ears. Frankly I believe my ears when the perceived change is substantial and it is not due to the placebo effect. I'll grant you that the placebo effect might be considered when we are talking about relatively subtle changes

Raja

[Lou-the-dog]

Didn't Davef describe a mod where a small piece of felt was applied near the tweeter on the 170's (Classics)? Can't remember exactly why...maybe for dispersion reasons dependant on placement?? Feel free to correct me.

Randy

[bikeman]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on AB testing. I believe that for that test to be meaningful it would need to be performed with a VERY good system and with people that are knowledgeable and have good ears.

We can't get A/B testing published in a peer reviewed journal. At least not to show results. It can be used for other purposes. Properly conducted BT/DBT is published all the time. I've recommended this before so I guess I'll do it again. Go to any school that offers perceptual psychology and take a 300 (or above) level course. It'll change the way ya think about a lotta things. All our senses can be dramatically effected by filters (information). To get useful results, we have ta minimize those filters. We can't do that with A/B.



Frankly I believe my ears when the perceived change is substantial and it is not due to the placebo effect. I'll grant you that the placebo effect might be considered when we are talking about relatively subtle changesRaja
We all believe our senses. Life would be absolutely miserable if we felt otherwise. It's just good to recognize that we all filter information differently. It has little to do with how good our hearing or eyesight are.
I've been in girglemirt's corner for awhile now but I felt as you do for years as well. My hearing hasn't changed dramatically but my filters have.

David

[GirgleMirt]

Well actually I don't wanna start the whole RCA cable/speaker wire debate

Then why did you? Half of your post was giving Raja a hard time about liking the cables he bought.
Yeah sorry I guess its that replacing crossover parts would kinda fall into that category... That is, replacing the wires with exotic wires, exotic resistors, etc.. Then when its done, what's left? Claiming extraordinary improvements just like changing a 5$ IC with a 300$ one? Anyhow, I guess I'm as much curious as anyone else concerning replacing parts, but am already doubtful about hearing about the results...


[1]I believe that for that test to be meaningful it would need to be performed with a VERY good system and with people that are knowledgeable and have good ears. [2]Frankly I believe my ears when the perceived change is substantial and it is not due to the placebo effect.[3] I'll grant you that the placebo effect might be considered when we are talking about relatively subtle changes

[1] Well... Do you think you have all those things? What do you think about my proposed test? :) [2] lol :D The perfect candidate for the placebo effect :) Its pretty much the same thing when a doctor gives a patient a sugar pill, the patient takes it and gets better because of the pill. That's exactly what placebo is all about! :p When you're A/Bing two RCA cables, even if they're the same, you're actively trying to find differences, even if you're purposely trying not to get 'fooled' by hearing differences where there are none, you'll still be doing it subconciously... add the imperfect nature of the human ear, the short acoustic memory, the nature of the test and its not suprising to hear differences where there were none... If only all it took to eliminate the placebo effect was a knowledge of what a placebo is...

You can see evidence of that with a BT.. People thinking they heard something (could identify cable X), but they were simply wrong... Its pretty evident when someone say its cable A, then the cable doesn't get switched, and that same person listening to the same cable says its now cable B. They thought they heard something different. And maybe they actually did! Its the imperfect nature of man. So relying on that instead of hard data is what makes the snake oil industry thrive today.. :( [3] Thanks :) Or are you saying that cable/RCA cable changes aren't subtle?

[rajacat]

So you are saying that quality interconnects make no difference in SQ. It would be very interesting to take some very high end speakers such as the $25000+ Wilson's and rip out the megabucks interconnects and substitute the very cheapest Radio Shack cables and listen for differences. I would be willing to bet my paycheck that there would a marked audible difference in SQ. Since you have been suggesting that I use my precious time constructing involved a/b and blind tests perhaps you should go to a dealer and conduct this relatively simple test yourself.

Another suggestion would be to check out one of the truly audiophile forums such as Audio Circle and inquire about this issue. There are people there who are constantly rotating their equipment and I'm sure are better equipped to address this issue than the members of this forum.

Bikeman, I'm sure that there are filters which account for the inability to perceive differences because of erroneous preconceptions also. How does that saying go? I think "a man believes what he wants to believe and disregards the rest." Perhaps we all want to believe that our economy systems are just as good as the high end rigs because the buyers of the high price spread are just duped by clever marketing.

[bikeman]

Bikeman, I'm sure that there are filters which account for the inability to perceive differences because of erroneous preconceptions also. How does that saying go? I think "a man believes what he wants to believe and disregards the rest." Perhaps we all want to believe that our economy systems are just as good as the high end rigs because the buyers of the high price spread are just duped by clever marketing.
You're not following what I'm saying. If you hear a difference then a difference exists. That's not an issue. "Filters do not exist "because of erroneous preconceptions." They exist because we are capable of learning. Do you have a college or university nearby?

David

[Lou-the-dog]

I'm just thinking out loud here. First off, I have not experimented with high dollar interconnects and such and I'll admit that I tend to think they are snake oil...BUT Raja does have me thinking here. Raja says he hears a difference between the low dollar and high dollar cables and that the difference is quite significant. I guess what I am wondering is why do we tend to throw doubt about someones audio perception when we we will easily accept that same persons perception when it comes to his other senses? An example, if I were to test your sense of touch, I might have you feel a piece of glass and a piece of sandpaper (blindfolded of course). As I swapped these back and forth I'd bet that there would be 100% accuracy in picking which was which. Now let's test the sense of taste. I would have you sample sugar and then lemon. How about smell...fresh dog poop vs the fragrance of lilac?? I admit that these examples are extreme but I don't think any of us here would throw into doubt the sensory judgment of the individual taking those tests. Raja says the cable differences are quite significant. I assume it is more significant than, say, the possible difference in taste from one bottled water to the next...so who are we (including me) to dismiss this as psycho-acoustics, wishful thinking and such? I guess if we are going to question his auditory prowess and attribute any percieved differences to brain trickery then is it not game to question his sense of smell, taste and touch??

Randy

[GirgleMirt]

Trusting your senses? Here's some fun to be had with your senses (http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/ ) :D

Raja. I don't think any audio vendor would be interested in conducting a blind test (actually some did and failed in the list I posted previously :D)... But besides, as I've said I've already participated in a test, I was suggesting you did one not for my sake but for yours... Roger Russell's (http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#thetruth) last paragraph adresses the issues about discussing with people who don't want to hear about it...

There's an whole unscrupulous industry trying to perpetrate the myth about cables. Want to laugh? Read reviews about power cords. Yes thats right. Power cords... :eek: How many pc tweakers do you know who have bought 300$ power cords? Yet, you won't have any trouble finding audiophiles believing in power cords... Why do you think that is?

With audiophiles... Your system isn't good enough... You don't have ears good enough to hear the differences... It doesn't really matter if the physics behind them doesn't hold up, audiophiles aren't up to snuff anyhow and most of them don't even want to hear about it. They hear differences, so there are differences, and thats all there is to it. Most aren't even interested in blind testing... Hell, why would they be? If they fail a blind test, then it means they wasted their time and money, plus they'll get ridiculed by their peers...

RCA cables... speaker wire... As much as some would like you to think otherwise, copper is copper. If someone wants us to believe that a 'special' copper wire has some sort of properties which makes it better than a regular cable for audio, then the burden of proof is on them.

If someone claims to sell somekind of water which is supposedly more revitalizing than your regular water, are you going to taste both to see if thats true? Or are you going to talk to people who have had experiences with many different kind of more revitalizing waters? Until cable manufacturers prove that their (non-broken) cables make an audible difference, I think a safe assumption to make is that they don't. My personal experience supported that conclusion, and so did data and DBT results I've seen on the net...

I guess its in people's natures... Some believe easily, some are more skeptics... I guess I'm more of a skeptic... I've had experiences in audio where my senses were fooled... So now I prefer to stay objective and not rely too much on my flawed senses... I probably wouldn't even try the water, just ask the guy's explanation of what makes it so special...

If you pour two glasses of water from the same bottle, but have someone explain to people what makes the water of the second glass so much better than the first, then ask people to taste both and give the differences they taste, you can bet your ass most people would find differences! But then make a DBT and you'll get results reflecting reality.

[rajacat]

Girgle...No disrespect intended but there are others who have much more experience and knowledge than you that have a different opinion. Much of what you say has an element of truth in it and there is a lot of snake oil purveyed in the audiophile world like the ebony pucks that are supposed to improve SQ when place on, maybe your preamp. However, you probably think that Vino Fino would taste just as good as the most hand crafted Cabernet Sauvignon since the numbers are the same, i.e. the alcohol content might be equal. Of course that doesn't take into account that the Cab might have been aged in real oak barrels and perhaps other steps were taken to extract the flavors from the grapes. In addition the land that was chosen to grow the grapes was carefully tilled and amended adds to the quality of the grapes and the finished product. Numbers only tell part of the story. Some speakers might have a incredibly flat freq. response graph but might sound clinical and dull for other not so easily measurable reasons. Copper wire might have certain sound signature but if you use silver for wire it will have a different sound signature and different mixtures of metals will also have their distinctive sound. There is as much art to the design of audio components as science. :)

Raja

Lou the dog

I don't believe I said that all high end cables will improve SQ or that it was a large improvement. What I meant to say is that these particular cables had an easily discernible effect on the SQ and that effect had a positive improvement on the mid and lower freqs. of my Ascends 340se's. BTW I would have never paid retail for these cables in fact I'll bet that many on this forum have invested as much money on their midfi cables. For $125 I obtained (3) 4' pairs of interconnects and one 15' pair of speaker cables. All of these cables were heavily shielded and had first class connectors installed.
It's amazing the deals you can find on some of the forums if you are in no rush.

Raja

[rajacat]

You're not following what I'm saying. If you hear a difference then a difference exists. That's not an issue. "Filters do not exist "because of erroneous preconceptions." They exist because we are capable of learning. Do you have a college or university nearby?

David

Bikeman,

I guess I'm a little dense. :o In plain English I would think that you are talking about subjectivist school of psychology. We all perceive reality from our own unique perspective which is constantly changing so it is really hard to judge someone's opinion unless you could crawl inside their brain and see their world with their unique sensibility.

Raja

[GirgleMirt]

There is as much art to the design of audio components as science
If by audio component you mean speaker wire, if that's what you want to believe, fine :) If one day you care to validate your your results, a BT isn't that hard to do.

RR's closing statement:

When confronted with the truth, believers do not want to hear about it. They want to remain in the magical world of fantasy where they think they can hear improvements in their wire, often arrived at by making listening tests without adequate controls or understanding of the problems involved. One of the prime tools in creating such a faith for the average consumer is by capitalizing on fear and ignorance as in many other things that aren’t readily apparent. There is fear that the wire currently in use is not good enough. There is ignorance because most people do not have scientific knowledge in this area and lack adequate measuring equipment to prove otherwise.

Comparing taste by going with alcohol percentage is silly. So is trying to hear differences between two copper wires (speaker cables). The problem lies in having people totally disregard physics (flow of electron thru a conductor to the voice coil) and instead relying on flawed senses to try to distinguish differences that woud be so minute that even if they did exist, couldn't possibly detect them with such imprecice instruments... Its pretty much common sens vs esoterism.

See the coloring cd sides bwith green marker... It makes no sens what so ever, yet many have heard the benefits and described the obvious differences that makes. Power cables... Do you really need more evidence that people's senses and perceptions can easily be fooled?

[rajacat]

Its too bad that I can't demonstrate the difference to you with my rig because either your ears are plugged with wax or you would come over to my point of view. Remember I'm not just talking about speaker cables because the component interconnects contributed to the SQ improvement to a greater degree.

Raja \\p.s. I guess we have run this subject into the ground. Next topic: With some speakers a break-in period is necessary before you can accurately judge the quality of many speakers. :D

Raja

on more ps ....Check out this thread for relevant discussion.http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=21118.10

[bikeman]

Bikeman,
I guess I'm a little dense. :o In plain English I would think that you are talking about subjectivist school of psychology. We all perceive reality from our own unique perspective which is constantly changing so it is really hard to judge someone's opinion unless you could crawl inside their brain and see their world with their unique sensibility.Raja
It's my guess that subjective psychology was a building block of modern day cognitive psychology so I believe you're heading in the right direction. Just fast forward several decades and things get a bit more interesting. Modern Technology had added a whole new demension to this pursuit.
I subscribe to the school that says there's nothing "wrong" with our senses. Our senses have only recently been used for listening to music, tasting for pleasure, viewing art and seeing detail in a larger context. Senses weren't designed for these purposes but they're pretty good at it nonetheless. We're just now starting to qualify and quantify the limitations. Wish I had more time to keep up with it.

David

[GirgleMirt]

on more ps ....Check out this thread for relevant discussion.http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=21118.10
Meh.. I registered, read it, and found no significant info there... Any relevant part you want to highlight?

My gripe: People claiming hearing significant differences about cables without having ever done a test which eliminates the placebo effect. I'm not 100% dismissing the idea that cables can sound different, but I'm saying that before anyone makes the claim thay they are, they should verify their results. "I heard a significant difference" isn't really good enough... As mentionned, people hear significant differences where there are none.

You can view a picture of the anechoic room where the Ascends are measured. (And I guess where any particular tweak would tested). If Ascend would like to test some new form of wire which supposedly improves sound, I'm sure their 1st test would be measurements. Then, I'd guess some kind of blind test would be in order if they wanted to verify if the changes were really audible. When testing two components, you want the SPL to be matched. Why? Because slightly higher SPL will falsify the results. Higher SPL will be chosen as 'better', even if there was no differences between the components.

Just something to keep in mind for possible modders.. Perceived differences isn't the same thing as real differences....

[S_rangeBrew]

Question on the x-over on the Panasonic: is it really only 100hz? I couldn't find any references to 80hz. If so that would be a deal breaker for me, as I find 80hz or lower x-overs work best, depending on the main speakers. :confused:

Other than that, I've seen pretty much nothing but good things said about the Panny digital amps. I still think they are whimpy looking, and my 1014 would crush them.... physically, maybe not sonicallly. :D

[bikeman]

The Panny's lowest crossover is 80hz. If they come out with a 60hz, I'll buy it.

David

[boxwes]

Girgle...No disrespect intended but there are others who have much more experience and knowledge than you that have a different opinion.

So Roger Russell doesn't have enough experience and knowledge????

I would take a peak at http://www.roger-russell.com (http://www.roger-russell.com/) and see who he is before I totally disregarded his thoughts.