Anyone do a comparison of the XR-57 with analog receiver?

[badassfajita]

I just hooked the XR-57 up to my 340SE's and was curious if anyone else had experience comparing the Panasonic to a mid priced Yamaha/Denon/HK.

Thanks.

[Quinn]

Eddie here in Houston got rid of his Marantz 5400(?) for a Panny XR55.

Have you tried the search function and XR55/57? THere are a few threads on this forum about the Panny digitals.

[sls7u]

I compared the HK 435 vs the Panny xr55 for about a week in my apartment. The rest of my set-up consists of a 340 classic center, 340SE fronts, 170SE rears and an Hsu VTF3 MK2 sub. Sources compared were the HD DirecTV tivo (the old one) and a Denon DVD player, both connected via optical cables to the receiver.

I'm still relatively new to the whole audiophile scene, so excuse my lack of terminology. Basically, the Panny made the music(SACD and red-books)/movie/TV show sound more life-like than the HK. This was true for both voices and instruments, especially ones with higher pitches (strings, piano, cymbols). The HK was good, and definitely nicer than my 10 year old Yamaha receiver. Also, it has a lot more features, including the room equalization function. But, I thought the sound was truer with the Panny, so I saved my self the $400 and kept the Panny. Hope this helps.

[Eddie]

Eddie here in Houston got rid of his Marantz 5400(?) for a Panny XR55.

yeah, the OP has actually heard my xr55 at my house on my 340 classics. :)

I had already gotten rid of the Marantz by that time though, so he had nothing to AB against.

[badassfajita]

Well I've got the 340SE's, Axiom M22's, a Panasonic SA-XR57, an older Onkyo TX-SR503 (from upstairs system) and I got ahold of a Yamaha RX-2500.

Ok the easiest thing to decide was to put the Axioms back in the box. While at times the top end was cleaner, the Ascends just had *more* throughout the entire frequency range. That was easy. I gave them plenty of opportunity to "win", but they couldn't. At times, the vocals sounded compressed, but only b/c I was A-Bing with the Ascends. Alone, they would be ok.

Now to the hard part...deciding which amp to keep. Unfortunately I purchased the Panasonic from CC a bit early and my 30 day window expires today, so its going back no matter what. If I decide to keep it, I will rebuy from elsewhere on the web.

Listnening impressions--The Panasonic with the SE's are bright--no way around it. I've got the treble at -5 right now and it sounds much better. Thankfully the treble is coming down at 20hz, so the overall sound really isn't affected, just the top end. I listened to the classics before with an XR55 and Eddie had a Marantz CD player hooked up via analog and that sounded good. I've got an optical connection from my cheapo DVD player to the 57. Played loudly with the tone flat, I heard sibilance and I got ear fatigue in 10-15 minutes. But its better now with the treble down -5. Vocals are forward though (I like that!). I hooked up the Onkyo and all the bright treble went away, but so did a lot of the excitement of the music. It just sounded, well plain, but the treble was smooth.

Now on to the Yamaha--with the tone flat, the treble issues went away. The sound was very pleasing and full. Even some of the DSP modes had cool reverb sounds. The best part was the 60hz crossover...some music didn't sound "right" to my ears though--it did lack some of the detail of the Panasonic. Many cool features too--the GUI is very cool and the mic setup worked well. In Pure direct mode, that detail came back, but of course the sub is defeated, so that sux.

So then I just hooked up the Panasonic one more time--the detail is absurd as is the power. It easily sounds more powerful than the 130 x 2 yamaha. The Yamaha can handle its own, but the Panasonic has the edge on clarity.
Well now I am torn between the Yamaha and Panny--The Yamaha can be had used for $100-$150 more than the 57, so cost really isn't a factor to me, especially for the additional bells and whistles that the Yamaha gives.

I'm gonna give one more shot with a HK 635 hopefully and make the final call. Will update soon!

[curtis]

The 340s vs the M22s is really, IMO, a no contest as you have found out. In fact, the 170SE is a much more fair comparison for the Axiom. Somebody else also ask about the 340 vs M22 and said the same thing, but I think the similar driver configuration and costs makes people think they are comparable.

Very interesting read about how the receivers are working for you. Make sure to spend a lot of time listening to each one....at least a few hours each, and level match.

[bikeman]

Listnening impressions--The Panasonic with the SE's are bright--no way around it. I've got the treble at -5 right now and it sounds much better.
Could your listening area be adding to the brightness? I've got the classic 340's with an XR-55 and I'm not experiencing it. Sometimes detail can be expressed as brightness but my first thought would be the room.
Have fun deciding.

David

[Asliang]

The 340s vs the M22s is really, IMO, a no contest as you have found out. In fact, the 170SE is a much more fair comparison for the Axiom. Somebody else also ask about the 340 vs M22 and said the same thing, but I think the similar driver configuration and costs makes people think they are comparable.

Very interesting read about how the receivers are working for you. Make sure to spend a lot of time listening to each one....at least a few hours each, and level match.

Without a subwoofer, the M22 ($460!) vs the 170SE is really no contest either. For music I think it's no contest, the voices are so much fuller--something I don't think a sub alone can fill. Also the 170SEs have much better dispersion than the M22Tis--I can walk around the room and the effect is pretty minimal other than loss of highs; when done with the M22s, listening above and below the listening position or to the far sides, it really sounded localized, whereas the Ascends can really fill a wider area.

[Eddie]

It’s too bad you had such a tight deadline on the Panny, I would have given you the following advice to lessen brightness:

1. Bi-wire the 340s and set the HF Balance so that the woofers are getting much more power than the tweeters.

2. Get a decent CDP and use the analog inputs. That Marantz I have was just under $150 shipped, you can get a used Sony CDP for under $50 that will probably sound better than a cheap DVD player on optical or coaxial.

3. Turn the treble all the way down if needed, since the treble controls are set at 20Hz this will not really screw up the soundstage as it would on most receivers.

4. If #1-3 fail, set your 340s on “large” when listening to music, and “small” only during movies with tons of LFE that you plan on listening at near reference levels.

You did touch on a long-time gripe of mine about the Panny: I wish it had a 60Hz crossover!

(The 2nd biggest gripe is that it doesn’t have a one-touch “Pure Direct Mode” that turns the speakers on “large” for music listening like my old Marantz had.)

[Eddie]

Could your listening area be adding to the brightness? I've got the classic 340's with an XR-55 and I'm not experiencing it. Sometimes detail can be expressed as brightness but my first thought would be the room.


Room conditions are always worth factoring in, definitely.

However I would not be surprised if the SEs are actually more forward speakers than the Classics. Quinn's 170SEs were strikingly brighter than Rysa's 170 Classics, but DF verified that his had a defective tweeter that has since been taken care of, so that was not a reliable result.

I hope to bring my 340 Classics over to the OP's place for an AB against those SEs sometime to find out.

[badassfajita]

Well I got ahold of a HK 635 and I will be testing it in the next few days. Eddie--my "cheapo" DVD player actually is a Sony DV-C80V or something like that - cost me $80 bux a year ago or so. I tried the analog connection and heard no meaningful difference with the optical. I'm not sure if I'm willing to spend another $150 on a CD player just b/c the receiver is bright...I say that now, but 2 weeks from now, who knows? :) Your #1 suggestion is very intriguing--wish I had a chance to do that. If I am not at all satisfied with the HK, then I may get the Panny again from onecall or j&r.

Thanks for the advice. I am hoping the HK will work as its got the best bass management features and that 60hz crossover...

[Quinn]

Room conditions are always worth factoring in, definitely.

However I would not be surprised if the SEs are actually more forward speakers than the Classics. Quinn's 170SEs were strikingly brighter than Rysa's 170 Classics, but DF verified that his had a defective tweeter that has since been taken care of, so that was not a reliable result.



You need to hear my 170SEs again, as they sound a good bit different to me, now that they have been repaired.

[Eddie]

Well I got ahold of a HK 635 and I will be testing it in the next few days. Eddie--my "cheapo" DVD player actually is a Sony DV-C80V or something like that - cost me $80 bux a year ago or so. I tried the analog connection and heard no meaningful difference with the optical. I'm not sure if I'm willing to spend another $150 on a CD player just b/c the receiver is bright...I say that now, but 2 weeks from now, who knows? :) Your #1 suggestion is very intriguing--wish I had a chance to do that. If I am not at all satisfied with the HK, then I may get the Panny again from onecall or j&r.

Thanks for the advice. I am hoping the HK will work as its got the best bass management features and that 60hz crossover...

well I can't imagine anyone NOT being satisfied with the 635, if I were buying an analog AVR that would probably be my first choice. I'm looking forward to the chance to AB the classic and SE 340s!

[Eddie]

You need to hear my 170SEs again, as they sound a good bit different to me, now that they have been repaired.

We should get together with Marc sometime, or you guys could bring both speakers over to my place.

[badassfajita]

We should get together with Marc sometime, or you guys could bring both speakers over to my place.

Whichever you prefer is fine by me--the next two weekends are screwed for me, but I am available during the week as well after 5pm.

[S_rangeBrew]

I don't need to A/B them. There is no way a dinky little digital amp is going to hold a candle to my THX certified Pioneer 1014TX.

Throw a 1014TX at that whimpy little Pioneer and see which one works afterwards. It would be like KITT vs. KARR. Word to your mother.

;)

[Eddie]

I don't need to A/B them. There is no way a dinky little digital amp is going to hold a candle to my THX certified Pioneer 1014TX.

Throw a 1014TX at that whimpy little Pioneer and see which one works afterwards. It would be like KITT vs. KARR. Word to your mother.

;)


LOL sorry to burst your bubble but your 1014 is not really all that. Aside from having more bells and whistles (most of which most people will never use), it suffers from the same old mediocre analog SQ that every Pioneer AVR I've ever heard (except for the pricier Elite models) has. For HT it'll do though.

If/when you muster up the cojones to do an honest AB listen, then we'll talk but right now you're just blowing smoke out your backside. ;)

PS. If you honestly believe that "THX Certified" amounts to a hill of beans then there really isn't much hope. :D

[Lou-the-dog]

I don't need to A/B them. There is no way a dinky little digital amp is going to hold a candle to my THX certified Pioneer 1014TX.

Throw a 1014TX at that whimpy little Pioneer and see which one works afterwards. It would be like KITT vs. KARR. Word to your mother.

;)


Oh yeah?? Well, my crippled up ol' Denon can whup ALL those sissy little recievers you'se guys is talking about WITH all the digital connections tied behind it's back!! :mad: :D

Randy

[badassfajita]

Well, after only about 1 hour listening to the HK, its the clear winner in my book. Clear, full and did I say clear? Geez! I finally understand the hype regarding these 340's. The quality of the highs and the oomph of the source material just trumps the Yamaha and Panasonic. Some may take the differences as subtle, but for me its the difference of being happy and *very* happy. While the Yamaha highs were softer and smoother (which some may prefer), the HK comes out as cleaner and you can pick out more details. Not to mension, the HK has the best crossover flexibility out of the 3.

One thing that does suck is the on screen GUI--the Yamaha is light years ahead. But thats a small price to pay.

I didn't really use the Ezsetup either--i just set the crossover to 60hz and popped in a CD!

Now I see why Ascend sells HK on the website..

Thanks to all for the help!

[S_rangeBrew]

LOL sorry to burst your bubble but your 1014 is not really all that. Aside from having more bells and whistles (most of which most people will never use), it suffers from the same old mediocre analog SQ that every Pioneer AVR I've ever heard (except for the pricier Elite models) has. For HT it'll do though.

Well, I did post somewhat in jest, but I must say, I do enjoy using many of the "bells and whistles" on the 1014. I find the Auto EQ to be quite a nice feature. As for SQ, the 1014 is an Elite model with a different badge. Not that it really matters, if you want real power, you get a pro-amp. Funny, I'm having a hard time finding decently-priced digital pro-amps. Maybe you can help me with that?



If/when you muster up the cojones to do an honest AB listen, then we'll talk but right now you're just blowing smoke out your backside. ;)

PS. If you honestly believe that "THX Certified" amounts to a hill of beans then there really isn't much hope. :D

Actually, when it comes to amplifiers, THX Certified means something. It means the amp can actually put out the power numbers it lists. Many non-THX amps can't hack it. As a matter of fact, it was only recently that some digital amps were capable of passing the THX tests, and those were some quite high priced units. That's not to say there aren't a lot of amps out there that have the ability but just aren't THX certified, but the THX stamp on an amp *does* mean something. If you can't see that.... there really isn't much hope. ;)

[Eddie]

As for SQ, the 1014 is an Elite model with a different badge.

Yes, some people on AVS took the 1014 apart and found it to be visually identical to the entry level Pioneer Elite (40-something model number) but far from the same league as the middle and upper level PE receivers that I was referring to.


Not that it really matters, if you want real power, you get a pro-amp.

Depends on the speakers. I have ABed the Panny and some NAD separates that definitely have more power on my 340 Classics, and the Panny was the hands down winner---much less distortion at high volumes. I tend to doubt that a high-sensitivity 8 ohm speaker like Ascends would really show a huge difference with 400wpc behind them.


Funny, I'm having a hard time finding decently-priced digital pro-amps. Maybe you can help me with that?

In a couple of years, maybe. :D



Actually, when it comes to amplifiers, THX Certified means something. It means the amp can actually put out the power numbers it lists. Many non-THX amps can't hack it. As a matter of fact, it was only recently that some digital amps were capable of passing the THX tests, and those were some quite high priced units. That's not to say there aren't a lot of amps out there that have the ability but just aren't THX certified, but the THX stamp on an amp *does* mean something. If you can't see that.... there really isn't much hope. ;)

Puh-leez! My Logitech Z-2200 computer speakers have that stupid "THX Certified" logo that probably cost Logitech half the retail price, and they still sound like garbage compared to real speakers.

And your Pioneer 1014 still has that fuzzy, music-played-out-of-a-bucket sound quality typical of most analog AVRs that list under $600.

As for putting out claimed RMS numbers, Sound and Vision bench tested the Panasonic sa-xr70 (extremely similar internals to the xr55/57) and found that it does pretty much what it claims:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=806&page_number=1

[GirgleMirt]

I heard it costs mega-bucks to certify something THX, which is pretty much the reason a lot of companies don't go thru the bother. So sure, being THX certified means that the product met their requirements (which can be somewhat vaguely described here: http://www.thx.com/mod/products/performance.html) but it doesn't necessarily mean that its 'better' than another component which isn't. Its pretty much $ and marketing. So its not because "THX certified" is not on a product that the product automatically does not meet the specifications... But it does give an indication of minimum quality..

Some products wouldn't pass certification, doesnt' mean they're not fit for HT or anything... Ex: speakers, "Stray Magnetic Flux", I'm guessing unshielded speakers wouldn't get the passing grade....

[S_rangeBrew]

Puh-leez! My Logitech Z-2200 computer speakers have that stupid "THX Certified" logo that probably cost Logitech half the retail price, and they still sound like garbage compared to real speakers.


Well, there are different levels of THX certification. I agree they have too many levels. The fact they would make a category for cheezy PC speakers cheapens the THX brand image, IMHO. What's next, THX clock radios?

Anyway, in reality, it just cheapens their *image*. The fact remains that THX certification of movie systems is still very good. The Ultra and Select certs are something to look for, depending on your room size. I use the 1014tx in a small 13'x16'x8' room, with 7 HTM-200s and a subwoofer, and let me tell you, the THX demo at reference level, at the start of the Star Wars DVDs is better than any theater I've been in.

As for quality of the sound when it comes to digital vs. analog amps... well, that's for the most part subjective, so I won't get into that. If you think low-end Pioneers sound like ass, that's your call. I guess I'm from the "power is power" camp. As long as the source is good, and the amps aren't not total junk, the only thing I've been able to notice is which amp is more powerful. I found this particularly obvious when trying to drive some nice component car stereo speakers. The difference was astounding when I went to a beefy amp. It made me a convert to high power amps.

Anyway, sorry about the tangent....

Here is a good article on THX certification: (it has some good details, and made me respect THX a bit more) http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/feature-article-thx-1-2006-part-1.html

After reading that, I think you may agree, some THX certification is good. At least they are making an effort.

[Eddie]

Here is a good article on THX certification: (it has some good details, and made me respect THX a bit more) http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/feature-article-thx-1-2006-part-1.html

After reading that, I think you may agree, some THX certification is good. At least they are making an effort.


Nice article, sounds great in theory. Here are my doubts though:

Since it costs manufacturers quite a chunk of cash to get their products tested and certified, how do we know that the actual certification process is really as rigorous as claimed?

How do we know that the THX folks aren't for sale? I doubt they'd be stupid enough to grant THX-C to an obviously *awful* product, but for a mediocre mainstream product that in all likelihood will never be pushed to its THX-claimed limits?

Are there any known models and makes that have applied for THX-C and been *rejected?* I mean, based on what I remember of the Pio 1014 that I heard, I would frankly be *scared* to hear a receiver that THX folks actually gave the thumbs down to.

Also, there is way too much great gear out there that does *not* have THX-C to begin with.

I guess I'd put a lot more stock into this whole THX business if instead of a private money-making company it was a federal agency with a mandate to evaluate all the audio gear that comes on the market, kind of like the FDA does with medicines.

[cyberbri]

I personally wouldn't go with Panasonic, just because I don't like the remotes. My father has one in his old system, and it was a pain to try and do anything with the remote and the receiver itself. the HK remote isn't perfect, but it's got everything I need to adjust any settings.

BTW, the HK 330 (55x7 or 65x2 at 8 ohms) puts out about the same power as that Panasonic xr70 (100x6 at 6 ohms), according to that magazine's tests.

[S_rangeBrew]

Are there any known models and makes that have applied for THX-C and been *rejected?*

I can't find the link, but about a year ago, a THX engineer reported that pretty much all the digital amps they had tested had failed. Just two had passed, and they were some expensive ones. That was a year ago, and I have no idea what level of cert. they were talking about, or how they failed. I really am not putting much stock in it.

[Eddie]

I can't find the link, but about a year ago, a THX engineer reported that pretty much all the digital amps they had tested had failed. Just two had passed, and they were some expensive ones. That was a year ago, and I have no idea what level of cert. they were talking about, or how they failed. I really am not putting much stock in it.

yeah that doesn't make much sense if, according to the link you posted, the way that THX Cert works is that a manufacturer applies for it, is given a technical blueprint of what is required to pass, THEN designs/builds and sends in a prototype to THX for testing. It certainly doesn't look like THX does any uninvited testing independently.