340SE impressions

[cyberbri]

I had a few HT friends over for a listening session yesterday to check out my 340SEs, 170SEs, and VTF-3. He wrote up some thoughts here (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23579). He really knows his stuff when it comes to speakers and sound. My follow-up is the 3rd post there (as cyberbri).

[j_garcia]

Figured I'd post this here too, but looks like you beat me to it :D

[curtis]

Hey John....welcome to the forum.

[j_garcia]

:D I came here a while back, I believe on your urging, when looking for someplace to audition these guys. I didn't find someone here, but inadvertently managed to locate cyberbri right in my area through other channels :)

[curtis]

:D I came here a while back, I believe on your urging, when looking for someplace to audition these guys. I didn't find someone here, but inadvertently managed to locate cyberbri right in my area through other channels :)
OK...welcome BACK then. :)

[Lou-the-dog]

Good stuff John and Brian. Thanks for posting the links.

Randy

[azanon]

I only had 45 minutes or so to spend with my 340se's so far (L/R, no center), but my "first impression" is that the difference between them and my 170 classics are/must be relatively subtle (both are being played with a VTF-2, 2 HTMs in the rear, and on logic 7 mode). I tend to prefer logic 7 mode (H/K proprietary soundfield) over just stereo on my H/K, because stereo just makes the speakers seem too bright, and i like that added bass associated with Logic 7 music.

I"m not saying i dont like them. They sound wonderful, and look great too (cause they're the same height as my LCD) ergonomically. But the downside is that the CMB-170 is such a great speaker, that its hard to improve on "great".

I'm going to enjoy them and i'm glad i got them, but again, my take is the 340's are just an exclamation point, a cherry on top if you will, compared to a 170. I presume the differences are even less subtle with the 170SE.

I realize the way i'm playing them, that it isnt exactly a fair comparison. If i were to cut out the sub, and the rear speakers, i'm sure it would be easier to tell the difference.

Regardless, what a wonderful speaker. A+ on both the 170 and the 340. I"m an ameteur, but gosh my system sounds good!

Azanon

[MikeS]

I spent some time comparing the 340SE and the 170SE a while back. Using test tones and my spl meter I found that the 340SE could play louder with less distortion and less port noise. For example, at 40hz, I could get 86dB with no port noise on the 340SE. Whereas, on the 170SE I got port noise at 81dB.

Even with the speakers set to small (crossover at 80hz) I found that when my Onkyo receiver was set to volume 40, I still got port noise with the 170 with a 70hz test tone. While the 340SE had no port noise even at volume setting 50.


Other than these test tone measurements, I also found the 340SE to have more precise imaging when listening to music, in stereo of course. I generally don't like to use psuedo surround sound modes since they are changing the music into something it's not.

The 170se are still awesome speakers. They actually played flat down to 40hz in my room the same as the 340se. I may get a pair of 170se for my rear speakers.

[azanon]

I did notice the added volume at a given receiver setting, but even that difference was also subtle.

I'm definitely a surround sound junkie and do like soundfields; but i mainly just like the regular ones (not ones like "hall", "concert"). Stereo is so 1950s. Its DPL II cinema/music, DD 5.1, DTS, and Logic 7 for me all the way.

[MikeS]

Well, that is caused by the higher sensitivity rating of the 340SE over the 170SE. The ability to play higher volumes with less distortioni is definately an advantage for the 340SE over the 170SE. Although you may not play at high volumes very often, it is nice to know that you have that headroom if you need it.

[Eddie]

The ability to play higher volumes with less distortioni is definately an advantage for the 340SE over the 170SE. Although you may not play at high volumes very often, it is nice to know that you have that headroom if you need it.

Sure wish I could get my hands on both of the SEs...the classic 170 actually had less distortion than the classic 340 when I ABed them, stayed perfectly composed at above 95db while the 340 started to show some treble break-up.

[j_garcia]

Sure wish I could get my hands on both of the SEs...the classic 170 actually had less distortion than the classic 340 when I ABed them, stayed perfectly composed at above 95db while the 340 started to show some treble break-up.

So do you think that is due to the new tweeter or x-over (and/or combination)? I did hear what sounded like a bit of break up when we cranked it - it was clear the tweeter was not hanging in as well as the midbasses were, but it did not become harsh. I figured this was an issue with power, as we were using a lower power H/K for listening.

[Eddie]

So do you think that is due to the new tweeter or x-over (and/or combination)? I did hear what sounded like a bit of break up when we cranked it - it was clear the tweeter was not hanging in as well as the midbasses were, but it did not become harsh. I figured this was an issue with power, as we were using a lower power H/K for listening.

I'd imagine the new drivers are the main reason. Even a lower-end HK shouldn't have any trouble driving the Ascends' 8 ohm load and +88db sensitivity.

[curtis]

The new SEAS tweeters definitely have better composure at high output level than the older tweeters used on the classics.

Dave posted that at higher output, the tweeter in the classic 340 did display some distortion. This was very high volume levels that I never reached in normal listening.

[j_garcia]

The new SEAS tweeters definitely have better composure at high output level than the older tweeters used on the classics.

Dave posted that at higher output, the tweeter in the classic 340 did display some distortion. This was very high volume levels that I never reached in normal listening.

I've heard SEAS drivers in other speakers and I was quite pleased; in fact one of the brands is a personal favorite of mine and the tweeter was one aspect of them that I was really impressed with. I don't doubt they have great power handling, which is why I'd like to throw a ton of power at them and see what they can do. I was actually surprised at the level the 340s were able to reach with the amount of power provided (stereo only for the H/K, and I know H/K has solid power supplies). When I heard what I felt was a change in the sound, we are talking about very loud levels; definitely above comfortable listening.

[curtis]

I am currently throwing 500wpc at my 340SE's!

[tilt]

Curtis,
What are your impressions at 500WPC instead of the typical 80-100WPC?

[curtis]

Curtis,
What are your impressions at 500WPC instead of the typical 80-100WPC?
Honestly, at normal listening levels, little or no difference. I think it is more of an issue of having quality amplification. I also made the change in wattage about the same time I upgraded to SE's....so tough to tell what made the biggest difference.

I do think that I can play the system louder and cleaner than with less wattage though.

Honestly though, I think the sound of the system is so good right now, I am just trying to find excuses or "reasons" to try different things. What I would really like to have now is a recliner in the listening position. :)

[azanon]

I definitely noticed an improvement in sound quality between my entry level Sony Home Theatre receiveer to my AVR 140 H/K. But i have to wonder if the "quality" can get much better than that. I'm definitely not so much of an audiophile that i'd spend 3K for a Clarion amp or something just so that i try to listen really closely to even tell a difference over a H/K. The specs for the H/K (quality, not watts) are pretty impressive, and are the same for all of their receivers.

I'm also never going to turn my stereo up so loud, that my ears would damage so i just have no need for the massive wattages. I cant even detech a hint of distortion up until the point that the volume starts to hurt.

[j_garcia]

Clarion doesn't make home gear, AFAIK.

YES, the quality can get better than the H/K 140. As Curtis mentioned though, more power really doesn't change the sound, it simply affords you the abiltiy to play clearly at higher levels as well as basically always having enough power at lower levels. Just becusae you don't think you are hearing distortion doesn't mean it isn't occurring.

[bikeman]

Just becusae you don't think you are hearing distortion doesn't mean it isn't occurring.
If it's occuring and we can't hear it, Why the concern?

David

[Quinn]

If it's occuring and we can't hear it, Why the concern?

David

You don't know it is there until you hear the same speakers without it.

I was a big non-believer in amp differences until the Austin GTG a couple of years ago. After hearing the different amps with the same speakers I'm a believer.

[azanon]

(yeah not clarion, some other brand that i'm trying to think of, but escapes me).

Yeah i know it can get better, but 3K better? I just know that the law of diminishing returns applies to speakers and amps like it does so many other things, and for me, a decent AVR with Ascends is definitely reaching the point where one should only go further if they're REALLY serious about being an audiophile and/or are just made of money.

I'd rather just live with the H/K, and build a new PC, buy an HD-DVD player, get a better car, etc..... too many other good alternatives.

Azanon

[Mag_Neato]

It is difficult to imagine what increased power can do without experiencing it. Greater dynamics and control of the drivers will change the sound. With less chance of amp clipping, you will have cleaner sound throughout the frequency range. I had a 60 watt per channel Rotel amp years ago feeding a pair of Vandersteen 1B's. it was a dual-mono design, having two seperate power supplies, and was bridgeable into a 180watt mono amp. I hooked up one 1B to it while bridged to see if the increase in power would make a noticable difference. It was not noticable.......it was dramatic! Besides the things I mentioned above, the most improved quality was the bass. Tighter and better defined, as well as greater extension. I was kicking myself for doing it because there was no way I could swing another $400 for a second amp, and Rotel had already made a model change removing one of the power transormers and going with a single toroidal type.

One day I will have a dedicated power amp again as funds allow.

[azanon]

I'm just glad i'm more easily satisfied. It saves me a lot of money.

I'll just really rough it with my 340SE's and my H/K! * smiling sarcasm *

[Eddie]

Yeah i know it can get better, but 3K better? I just know that the law of diminishing returns applies to speakers and amps like it does so many other things, and for me, a decent AVR with Ascends is definitely reaching the point where one should only go further if they're REALLY serious about being an audiophile and/or are just made of money.

I have to agree with that. I HAVE heard better-sounding speakers (another local Ascend owner has some $3K Soliloquy towers with a velvety midrange that floored me) but could not justify spending that kind of dough unless I made a habit of sitting in front of my speakers for several hours several times a week, intently listening to music. As much as I do enjoy my Ascend setup whenever that urge strikes me, both the urge and the time to satisfy the urge simply don't arise often enough to make the opportunity cost (about the only Economics 102 term I still remember, lol) worthwhile for me.

[DVDIT]

I have been playing with my recently acquired 340 LCR. While I absolutely love this speaker for music I am a bit disappointed its performance with movies. The center keeps letting me know it is there and that the sound is coming out of a box below the front screen. It doesn't do a disappearing act like my other speaker, a Mirage, and place the sound in the middle of my front projector screen. Also male voices have an unnatural high pitch to them. Granted I only watched only one movie, House M.D second season-disc one, episode title "Acceptance". I connected my Mirage back to see if this was indeed how the male voices sounded on the disc but it is not. Perfectly natural on my Mirage. Has anyone seen this movie and confirm my observation, please. FYI, my sub is HSU STF-2 Xo @ 80Hz, amp = HK AVR330. Thanks.

[azanon]

I have been playing with my recently acquired 340 LCR. While I absolutely love this speaker for music I am a bit disappointed its performance with movies. The center keeps letting me know it is there and that the sound is coming out of a box below the front screen.

Due to limitations by my existing entertainment area and my new 40" LCD, i've been forced to just go phantom mode with L/R 340 SE's, and so far i'll have to say i'm pretty pleased with the output. As long as i'm relatively centered with the TV; not too far off axis, the voice is pretty convincingly coming from the TV. Even better, the 340s are exactly the same height as the bottom to top of my LCD, so i have no impression of the sound coming from above or below.

No sound is lost either with a 4.1 setup, because i do have the sub for LFE, and all center channel info is just redirected. Considering ergonomics too, I'm pretty pleased with phantom mode for now.

Azanon

[Eddie]

I have been playing with my recently acquired 340 LCR. While I absolutely love this speaker for music I am a bit disappointed its performance with movies. The center keeps letting me know it is there and that the sound is coming out of a box below the front screen. It doesn't do a disappearing act like my other speaker, a Mirage, and place the sound in the middle of my front projector screen. Also male voices have an unnatural high pitch to them. Granted I only watched only one movie, House M.D second season-disc one, episode title "Acceptance". I connected my Mirage back to see if this was indeed how the male voices sounded on the disc but it is not. Perfectly natural on my Mirage. Has anyone seen this movie and confirm my observation, please. FYI, my sub is HSU STF-2 Xo @ 80Hz, amp = HK AVR330. Thanks.

Very unusual findings. In most cases, if one is happy with a speaker's music performance then ditto for its HT performance but not as often vice versa.

It sounds like you might need to recalibrate your HK. Did you use an Avia disk?

[DVDIT]

In most cases, if one is happy with a speaker's music performance then ditto for its HT performance but not as often vice versa.

Not really. In music, the center is not involved. My compalint is about the center.

It sounds like you might need to recalibrate your HK. Did you use an Avia disk?
I have calibrated my HK with Avia and confirmed with both DVE & S&V. I am not new to this so calibration is not the problem.

[Eddie]

Not really. In music, the center is not involved. My compalint is about the center.

So you don't find the mains to be "bright" then---ah, I see now.


I have calibrated my HK with Avia and confirmed with both DVE & S&V. I am not new to this so calibration is not the problem.

You might want to talk to David F in that case. A local Ascend owner that I know had a pair of 170SEs that sounded much brighter than some 170 Classics that we ABed with, and after doing some diagnostics with David over the phone, determined that the tweeter was defective. He sent them back for repair and says that they now sound very different.

[DVDIT]

You might want to talk to David F in that case. A local Ascend owner that I know had a pair of 170SEs that sounded much brighter than some 170 Classics that we ABed with, and after doing some diagnostics with David over the phone, determined that the tweeter was defective. He sent them back for repair and says that they now sound very different.
Is there any test I can perform for defective tweeter?

[curtis]

Is there any test I can perform for defective tweeter?
swap the center with one of your mains to see how it sounds. While it should be slightly different, it should give you a good indication if there is a problem with the tweeter.

[cyberbri]

I'll have to do that too, since I noticed my center speaker doesn't seem to sound the same tonally in the mids-lows. I thought it might just be placement and the different crossover, but I'll try switching it with one of the mains for a bit to see if the speakers sound any different.

[curtis]

I'll have to do that too, since I noticed my center speaker doesn't seem to sound the same tonally in the mids-lows. I thought it might just be placement and the different crossover, but I'll try switching it with one of the mains for a bit to see if the speakers sound any different.
If your center has EXBAC, it will sound different. Like PLincoln and DaveF said, it is usually because of placement that mids/lows sound different....those are the frequencies that are more easily influenced by placement.

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showpost.php?p=18104&postcount=8

[davef]

Hi DVDIT,

I am sorry to hear of your problems with the center. I doubt that what you are hearing is a defective tweeter (although it is possible) -- my suspicion is that you are hearing distortion in the source material. Our loudspeakers are very revealing of the source material, all the good stuff and the bad (if it exists).

My experience with television source material (even when recorded to DVD) has not been good. Only minor attention (if any) is given to audio quality since these shows are designed for broadcast TV --- yes, hard to believe, but the vast majority of our country still watch TV through VHF transmission, which is subject to bandwidth limitations and compression, much like FM radio. It is also assumed that the soundtrack will be reproduced through the television’s sound system so why should the studio bother with the expense of optimizing audio quality? Things are slowly changing for the better though :)

Just a few quick questions that will better help me assist you with troubleshooting..

1. What is the center speaker's vertical height from the floor? Is the speaker in an enclosure or placed on an open shelf?

2. Which Mirage center were you previously using? Was it an Omnisat?

3. Please try different DVD source material -- such as a modern movie -- something with a lot of dialogue and familiar actors.

4. Try swapping a left/right speaker with the center --- this would be a good test in determining if there is indeed a defective component in the center speaker.

Hope to hear back from you soon and please feel free to email me directly at davef@ascendacoustics.com. Contacting me offline via email directly is more convenient and timely and is easier for me to reference.

Hope to hear back from you soon.

[davef]

Hi Eddie,


A local Ascend owner that I know had a pair of 170SEs that sounded much brighter than some 170 Classics that we ABed with, and after doing some diagnostics with David over the phone, determined that the tweeter was defective.

Actually it was not a defective tweeter. These speakers were a real challenge, the only complaint of its kind since the SE release (and many thousands have been sold). Nothing showed up on response measurements and yet my listening tests did reveal something that wasn't quite right on one of the speakers...

This was a fun challenge for me --- trying to determine exactly what I was hearing and probably what you and the owner heard too. A daunting task that would be difficult and time consuming (time is something I have little of these days). I could have swapped all the components and sent them back in perfect shape but I wanted to know exactly what was being heard.

After some rather intensive measurement sessions and boring sweep tone listening, I noticed something a bit off in the spectral decay plots at approximately 4kHz... using a low distortion oscillator, I confirmed that what I saw in the graphs was indeed audible -- and also corresponded to the original complaint. Turned out that the woofer had a HF resonance outside of its normal operating range, about 24 dB down, but definitely audible under the right circumstances. Because it was within the woofer's passband and so far down in amplitude -- it would not show up in frequency response measurements. In fact, the only way to see this was using CSD plots under anechoic conditions.

Swapping the woofer showed a dramatic change in the CSD plot at 4kHz and my listening tests confirmed this. What I heard previously was now completely gone...

This problem was the first of its kind and bothered me. How could I catch something like this with production line testing? This type of potential defect would not show up with frequency response or normal impedance measurements and taking anechoic CSD measurements on an assembly line in a factory is a practical impossibility. We already test every loudspeaker we ship for frequency response, impedance and sweep tone listening.

I gave this one a lot of thought and actually came up with a way to test for this on our production line. It required me to add some additional equipment but those who know me, know that when it comes to the *right* measurement gear -- I have an open wallet (don't ask me to purchase dinner though, maybe drinks :p )...

A high power impedance measurement revealed the woofer resonance, but at these high voltages, tweeter distortion corrupts the measurement by adding artifacts. By using what is known as a pink filter -- which allows me to send a pink noise filtered stimulus to the speaker (reducing the HF portion which corrupts the measurement) and then performing a reverse pink filter on the acquired data to get the real response --- even the smallest resonances are revealed, for both the woofer and tweeter… Another reason why I have always stressed the need for reference quality measurement gear… The average listener would have never heard this (it even took me quite a bit of time to isolate it) and the more common PC soundcard based measurement gear would not have detected it due to noise floor variances and resolution.

This extremely revealing test is performed in less than 1 second, making it simple to add to my suite of production line tests. I must admit though, since I have added this test I have hoped to at least find 1 woofer similar to the one that was problematic (thus justifying the expense and time spent) but I have not... It so far appears to be an isolated incident. It was, however, quite an intellectual challenge and it had been a while since I was confronted with such a task (reminding me of older slower days when I did these tasks for an employer rather than for my company)

I apologize for the lengthy post -- probably does not belong in this thread but I thought it would be cool to share some behind-the-scenes insight into what I enjoy most in audio, what supplies the fuel and real innovation that has become Ascend Acoustics.

Chris -- You've got some serious listening skills -- hope the 170 SE’s are sounding better ;) They sure sounded sweet to me and gave me a good excuse to familiarize myself yet again with some amazing ladies – Norah and Diana…

[bikeman]

I'm looking at the July issue of AES (Journal of the Audio Engineering Society). One of the articles is "Loudspeaker Motion in Transitional Frequency." I was half able to follow until page 2 when the math started.
I won't be starting a speaker company anytime soon.
Thanks for the explanation without the math, Dave.

David

[DVDIT]

1. What is the center speaker's vertical height from the floor? Is the speaker in an enclosure or placed on an open shelf?
The center speaker is placed on a stand 23" off and 1' from front wall just below my front projection screen.

2. Which Mirage center were you previously using? Was it an Omnisat?
It is a Mirage Omni CC

3. Please try different DVD source material -- such as a modern movie -- something with a lot of dialogue and familiar actors.
I am going to do just that for the next fwe days.

4. Try swapping a left/right speaker with the center --- this would be a good test in determining if there is indeed a defective component in the center speaker.
Don't notice any defect with the tweeter. Thanks for taking the time to help out.

[Mag_Neato]

What other company do you have the "Owner" doing the diagnostic testing and then post the process for us to read? Another company's owner would simply refer you to the contracted designer to answer this type of question.

[davef]

Hi DVDIT,

I wanted to get back to you regarding what you were experiencing with the center channel.

First off – I thought it important to stress that you have been using and are used to listening to a very different type of loudspeaker. The Mirage is an omnipolar speaker and distributes sound evenly in all directions. It is a non-directional loudspeaker whereby our center is a directional loudspeaker. Sound will be projected forward, towards the listening area as opposed to spread out in all directions. There are advantages/disadvantages to either design. The one important advantage to a directional loudspeaker (especially a center) is that it retains the subtle directional cues within a movie soundtrack. Vocals and effects are focused from a source, rather than dispersed.

Also, if you look at the frequency response of the Omnisat, http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/mirage_omnisat_v2fs/

You will notice the treble region averages about 10dB down from the midrange region. This will account for what you are, in reality, not hearing with the Omni center and what you are hearing with our center.

The 340 SE center is a very revealing and detailed loudspeaker – if it is on the source material – you will hear it as intended.

Hope this helps!

[DVDIT]

Thank You, Dave. I have lived with the Ascend for a few days now. While I still prefer the Mirage Omni for HT, I just can't get enough of the Ascends on music playback. They are an amazing speakers. Slowly I am adjusting to the Ascend center. I have played a few tracks that I am very familiar with to see if I am missing any subtle sounds that are present in the Ascends that are not present with the Mirage and so far I couldn't find any. Every subtle detail I hear on the Ascends I hear it on the Mirage.

The one important advantage to a directional loudspeaker (especially a center) is that it retains the subtle directional cues within a movie soundtrack. Vocals and effects are focused from a source, rather than dispersed.
This may be true. But I am not sure how I could tell which does this better as I don't hear any difference here now even though based on their specific design the Ascend may have the edge. BTW, that FR graph is for Omni FS v2 and my speakers are Omni 60s. I have some hard decision to make. If I could afford both system I would keep both. Unfortunately I could only have one system and my listening preference is 90% or more geared towards HT. I will listen some more before I decide which to keep.

[Quinn]

Soundstage measured the Omni 60s too. http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/mirage_omni60/

[Mike^S]

Hey Dave, when do you think you'll be able to put up some spectral decay measurements for the new SE models?

[davef]

Hi Mike,


Hey Dave, when do you think you'll be able to put up some spectral decay measurements for the new SE models?

Thanks for the reminder :o

We are rearranging our warehouse to make space for a large delivery of parts which will arrive in about 2 1/2 weeks and start to prepare for the holiday season. I will soon have enough open space available to take accurate CSD measurements and this is very high on my priority list.. Not just CSD plots, off-axis, listening window, impedance etc. Now that we have finally updated the website with all new SE pics (except for the homepage), my fucus for the website is publishing a full suite of measurements for each product.

Coming soon... I promise :)

[bikeman]

Hi Mike,
Coming soon... I promise :)
Ya can't just have one of the summer interns from the marketing dept. run the numbers? :confused:

;)

[Mike^S]

Awesome! I'm looking forward to seeing them.