iLink

[BGHD]

Is iLink worth the $200-300 premium in the Pio 74txvi over the 72txvi?

[pestosound]

Hi there. I've been happily using an iLink setup for about a year and a half now--Pioneer 55txi w/ Pioneer 47ai, + Ascend 170s/340c and SVS sub.

As to whether iLink is worth a $200-$300 premium, the main questions would be: 1. Do you already have an iLink-equipped DVD player? 2. Do you play a lot of SACDs and DVD-Audio?

If the answer to both is yes, then I think iLink is well worth it. For one thing, my 47ai came with a Firewire cable, so that saved me from buying a set of 6 RCA cables, + a coax/optical cable. If you're buying premium cables, that could easily approach $200. And then iLink has a lot "convenience" factors/gimmicks such as the receiver automatically switching to the DVD player when a disc is inserted...automatically sensing and displaying the numerous formats...SACD surround vs. stereo, DVD-Audio 96k vs. 48k, etc. Bass management/time delay/calibration, etc. are also much more convenient compared to dealing with the analog ext. input.

But as for these new Pioneer receivers, I haven't been following this new development of HDMI-equipped receivers. I notice on the Pioneer site, it states that HDMI handles "Dolby Digital, DTS, and even DVD-Audio". Does the 59avi transmit DVD-Audio over HDMI?? If so, then iLink would really only become necessary for SACD. Any hope of DSD over HDMI guys??


--David

[pestosound]

Hmm, I found this on www.hdmi.org FAQ page:

"Will HDMI support SACD?
The HDMI Founders designed the HDMI specification to be dynamic. HDMI has plenty of extra bandwidth to accommodate future audio and video requirements, and the Founders are committed to evaluating and updating the specification to help accommodate new audio and video formats that may be introduced in the foreseeable future. As an example, since the introduction of the initial HDMI 1.0 specification, the HDMI 1.1 specification supporting DVD-Audio has already been introduced. The HDMI Founders do not comment on future revisions of the spec, however there is no technical reason why HDMI could not support SACD."

I ain't holding my breath... But I guess the main question would be, could a receiver like the 72TXV support some kind of firmware update for a revised HDMI spec?

[pestosound]

Boy, I'm too busy answering my own questions today. Have you seen this?

http://www.hdmi.org/press/pr/pr_20050823.asp

HDMI 1.2 spec, just announced 2 weeks ago.

"Support for One Bit Audio format, such as SuperAudio CD's DSD (Direct Stream Digital)"

Looks like someday soon there'll be no need for iLink... But from what I can tell, Pioneer 59Avi is using HDMI 1.0, while 74TXVi has HDMI 1.1. So no viable option for SACD/DVD-A other than iLink right now. Still not sure about the possibility of HDMI firmware upgrades...

BTW BGHD, if you check out avsforum.com, it looks like there are already some in-depth discussions about all the receivers you mentioned.

[BGHD]

Thanks for the input. FWIW, per a Pio engineer (Chris Walker) that's been answering questions about Pio products in AVS, HDMI firmware will not be upgradeable in the new Pio receivers. Bummer. That makes the decision toughter, esp since I don't already have an iLink-capable DVD player.

[pestosound]

FWIW, per a Pio engineer (Chris Walker) that's been answering questions about Pio products in AVS, HDMI firmware will not be upgradeable in the new Pio receivers.
That's really bad news. Personally, if I were looking into upgrading right now, I'd wait to see how the HD-DVD/Blu-ray issues pan out in the next year (2 years??). With all that research I did into HDMI yesterday, I'm shocked at how quickly the standards change, how easily you could end up with equipment that's HDMI-ready yet not fully compatible.

I'm still not sure how much you're into SACD or DVD-Audio. I was very interested, but the 6-analog-cable route just seemed ridiculous. So the iLink solution was very important to me, and my Pioneer Elite setup has served me well. In any case, it might be a couple years before I even have an HDTV display (w/HDMI), so hopefully by then all these next-gen formats will be more ironed out. I just can't imagine buying a receiver as expensive as the 72TXV, et. al. with the knowledge that its HDMI inputs will never be able to handle the DD+ and DTS-HD audio streams of the future.

But through it all, I expect my Ascends will continue to sound great!

--David

[BGHD]

That's really bad news. Personally, if I were looking into upgrading right now, I'd wait to see how the HD-DVD/Blu-ray issues pan out in the next year (2 years??). With all that research I did into HDMI yesterday, I'm shocked at how quickly the standards change, how easily you could end up with equipment that's HDMI-ready yet not fully compatible.

I'm still not sure how much you're into SACD or DVD-Audio. I was very interested, but the 6-analog-cable route just seemed ridiculous. So the iLink solution was very important to me, and my Pioneer Elite setup has served me well. In any case, it might be a couple years before I even have an HDTV display (w/HDMI), so hopefully by then all these next-gen formats will be more ironed out. I just can't imagine buying a receiver as expensive as the 72TXV, et. al. with the knowledge that its HDMI inputs will never be able to handle the DD+ and DTS-HD audio streams of the future.

But through it all, I expect my Ascends will continue to sound great!

--David
I'm quite interested in SACD/DVDA. The pickens are slim, but as others have mentioned, I've started to listen to more music since upgrading my system (now HT/music 30/70, whereas before it was closer to 50/50). I'm actually satisfied with SACD via analog 5.1, but the prospects of reducing cable-hell and the other benefits of HDMI (at least for DVDA) and iLink, seem like worthwhile upgrades.

After all my research, I've decided to go with the 74txvi. Although it's HDMI 1.1, with iLink, it's a little more flexible for my current/future needs. I can either go with 59avi or 79avi (whenever that comes out) and still have the one-cable audio solution w/ the iLink. Or, can use HDMI with the 79avi or whatever HDMI 1.1 players out there, and use analog 5.1 for SACD only. So, a little added flexibility w/ the 74 over the 72.

And, please correct me if I'm wrong, but sources in AVS continue to state DD+ and other future audio formats will be processed within the DVD player rather than the receiver. So, hopefully my new AVR won't become a dinosaur any time soon.

[pestosound]

And, please correct me if I'm wrong, but sources in AVS continue to state DD+ and other future audio formats will be processed within the DVD player rather than the receiver.
You seem to know more about this than I do! But yeah, I've heard that DD+ or DTS-HD could be converted in-player to uncompressed PCM (24-bit/96k?) and sent to receiver via current HDMI spec. It just all seems like conjecture to me, sort of vague. And in general, the idea of all processing, bass management, etc. happening in the receiver is so much more logical. I'm sure iLink could handle these new codecs as well, but who knows if that will happen...

Anyway, the main thing is to enjoy whatever you get. The pickings are indeed slim, but I've found a lot to love in high-res/surround music. I just hope it continues, whether it's SACD or a new format. But for now, there are still enough SACDs to catch up on to keep me busy for a while.

[MacG]

Sorry, kind of late to this discussion. Got a question regarding bass management in SACD/DVD-A players. If I connect the player to an AVR with bass management, is it necessary to have bass management in your player?

[curtis]

Sorry, kind of late to this discussion. Got a question regarding bass management in SACD/DVD-A players. If I connect the player to an AVR with bass management, is it necessary to have bass management in your player?
Most receivers and pre/pros do not have bass management capabilities on the 5.1 analog inputs. If that is the case with your setup, then you would need good bass management on the SACD/DVD-A player.

Now, if and when connecting via HDMI, since that is in the digital domain, and using the DACs on the receiver/pre-pro, I would think that the bass management will also be done on the receiver/pre-pro as well.

[MacG]

Curtis, thanks for your response. The problem is that I have Denon 3805 which does not have an HDMI input, so I need to rely on 5.1 analog input. I'm not sure if the Denon 3805 has bass management for 5.1 analog input. I need to look into that. I was considering the Pioneer DV-588A-S that CHAS recommended in another thread. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like this player has bass management capabilities. I'm also looking at the Denon 1920, which does have "digital" bass management (fixed 100Hz x-over), but does it do it over the 5.1 analog output?

[curtis]

They don't make this stuff easy to figure out do they?

If I remember correctly, the 3805 does not do bass management on the 5.1 inputs.

[BGHD]

I have the Pio 588. All you can do is set speaker size. No xover or ch level settings. I don't have experience with Pio's iLink, but my understanding is you can do BM on SACD/DVDA digitally. Maybe there's a similar hookup between a 1920 mated to your 3805?

[shane55]

The 3805 has d-link... the Denon version of i-link. It's proprietary unlike i-link, and only the Denon DVD-3910 player (and up) have d-link output.

As for bass mgmt through 5.1 analog input. I couldn't tell you as I've always fed mine a coax or toslink signal.

That said, in the next few weeks I'll be getting a new Universal DVD player (most likely NOT the 3910), and will be hooking it up through the 5.1 analog inputs. If someone doesn't answer before me, I'll surely be able to tell you then about the BM abilities of the 3805 under those conditions. :D

cheers

shane

[BGHD]

I don't know anything about it, but would an ICBM be worthwhile for MacG? Is an ICBM more for setting ch levels or xover points?

[MacG]

Shane, I'll be looking forward to your experience with your new player and the 5.1 analog inputs. I'm a bit disappointed with Denon only offering the D-link on $1000 plus players.

In general, wouldn't you sort of be defeating some of the purpose of SACD/DVD-A if you don't have bass management? I'm sure it still sounds good without it, but are you getting the full potential out of it? I think this is especially relevant when using the non-full range speakers and a sub.

BTW, what is a ICBM?

[shane55]

MacG
While I have not gotten the new DVD player yet (not released until May or June...) I have heard that the 3805 has no bass mgmt. on analog inputs.

shane