Best sub for S2EX, Music + HT?

[Pogre]

much like the RAAL comparison above.

And again, there are indeed plenty of objective measurements of RAAL ribbons that explain why so many prefer them. It's not some magic, immeasurable unexplainable mystery...

[N Boros]

And again, there are indeed plenty of objective measurements of RAAL ribbons that explain why so many prefer them. It's not some magic, immeasurable unexplainable mystery...

I’ve looked at the measurements of both the Sierra 2s and CMT 340s. The only measurements that might explain, which were done for both speakers are the CSD plots. Both speakers die out pretty quickly at or around the 0.58 msec mark. But the lower end tweeter exhibits some resonances between 8kHz and 15kHz that linger for about 3 times as long. They are quite low in level in comparison to the original signal though. I don’t think that this completely explains it. I’m not saying that it is “magic”, but this is the only plot that helps explain it a little bit. The full explanation is most likely that the ribbon tweeter has the advantage in transient response over all frequencies, and there aren’t any of those extra resonances in the ribbon tweeter either. Also, I’ve also heard Dave mention that we won’t hear a ribbon tweeter clipping, like you would with a dome. Perhaps this means that even when pushed hard we don’t hear some of the harshness that we would hear from some dome tweeters. Maybe distortion measurements would show this difference, but we don’t have those to look at.

I didn't bring up or recommend HSU or any other brand. Tho I do think HSU make great sounding subs... but then so does Rhythmik and that's what op was looking at so I stayed the course and talked about Rhythmik.

If I were to recommend I'd probably go with Monolith's THX subs. For starters the Monolith 15" THX has lower group delay and lower distortion figures than the FV25.

Not that the FV25 is a bad sub or anything. They're fine subwoofers and the distortion and group delay are still well outside the range of human hearing. I don't think it'd have a negative impact on the sound tho, so I'd never recommend against Rhythmik. They make great subs. Thats why my recommendations in this thread were all for Rhythmik subs...

I only brought up Hsu, since that was my first subwoofer and I recently upgraded to Rythmik and it was quite an upgrade, where the 60 to 80Hz region was clearly handled better with the Rythmik subs.

I too have looked into the Monolith subwoofers, mainly because Audioholics keeps reviewing them and, at least until recently, they seemed to be one subwoofer company seemed unaffected by inflation. In my living room setup, I'm about ready to retire the Hsu subwoofer and upgrade. I've already upgraded in my theater room with Rythmik's. I love the FV15HP's, but my wife didn't want something so large in the living room. I love the price and performance of the Monolith subwoofers and the group delay as you mentioned, but all of the Monolith subs are just massive and heavy. When Audioholics recently did a preview of the ported dual 10 or 12 inch subs, I was excited at the price and performance. Then I looked at the weight and dimensions and the Rythmik FV15HP, as nearly the exact same base, but the Monoprice subs are quite a bit taller and heavier. The Rythmik subs have a slight bit more output from 20 to 40Hz, if I recall, than the dual 12 inch Monolith sub but the two are close outside of that. But the price of the two subs are nearly the same, so I'd still choose the FV15HP over the Monolith M212. I have as larger room, so I definitely want a ported sub, but even the 10 inch ported models from Monoprice are huge. I saw similar trends across the line of Monolith vs. Rythmik. If you don't mind huge and heavy subwoofers, the Monolith subs seem like a reasonable choice, but I think I'm going to end up with a pair of ported Rythmik subs in the living room too.

[James]

I've been curious about subwoofers, so I looked at a number of them (even though it doesn't make sense for us).

Monoprice has a new 8 inch THX subwoofer that looks interesting - it's smaller and lighter than you'd expect:

Monolith by Monoprice THX Certified 8in 150-watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com

It's reasonably priced, and goes down pretty far, although maybe not as far as some would want. They just posted that they're expecting more in stock in 9/22, which might be too long to wait.

One thing I liked is that they have line level inputs and outputs, with a real crossover, which would be what we'd want with our 2 channel system with older equipment. We'd put it in between our preamp and amp.

[davef]

I’ve looked at the measurements of both the Sierra 2s and CMT 340s. The only measurements that might explain, which were done for both speakers are the CSD plots. Both speakers die out pretty quickly at or around the 0.58 msec mark. But the lower end tweeter exhibits some resonances between 8kHz and 15kHz that linger for about 3 times as long. They are quite low in level in comparison to the original signal though. I don’t think that this completely explains it. I’m not saying that it is “magic”, but this is the only plot that helps explain it a little bit. The full explanation is most likely that the ribbon tweeter has the advantage in transient response over all frequencies, and there aren’t any of those extra resonances in the ribbon tweeter either. Also, I’ve also heard Dave mention that we won’t hear a ribbon tweeter clipping, like you would with a dome. Perhaps this means that even when pushed hard we don’t hear some of the harshness that we would hear from some dome tweeters. Maybe distortion measurements would show this difference, but we don’t have those to look at.

It isn't clipping, it is ringing / breakup modes. All dome tweeters exhibit a rather harsh break-up mode while RAAL ribbons do not.

There are basically 4 characteristics that I attribute to why RAAL's sound so go.

1. They are generally about 1/50th the moving mass of a dome tweeter. They basically accelerate and decelerate instantaneously, a near perfect transient response.

2. Extremely wide and linear horizontal dispersion

3. No break-up modes (as I described above)

4. There is no voice coil, no former, no surround - the only moving part is the resonating diaphragm itself, that combined with the extremely low mass = practically zero stored energy.

[N Boros]

It isn't clipping, it is ringing / breakup modes. All dome tweeters exhibit a rather harsh break-up mode while RAAL ribbons do not.

There are basically 4 characteristics that I attribute to why RAAL's sound so go.

1. They are generally about 1/50th the moving mass of a dome tweeter. They basically accelerate and decelerate instantaneously, a near perfect transient response.

2. Extremely wide and linear horizontal dispersion

3. No break-up modes (as I described above)

4. There is no voice coil, no former, no surround - the only moving part is the resonating diaphragm itself, that combined with the extremely low mass = practically zero stored energy.

Thanks!

I've been curious about subwoofers, so I looked at a number of them (even though it doesn't make sense for us).

Monoprice has a new 8 inch THX subwoofer that looks interesting - it's smaller and lighter than you'd expect:

Monolith by Monoprice THX Certified 8in 150-watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com

It's reasonably priced, and goes down pretty far, although maybe not as far as some would want. They just posted that they're expecting more in stock in 9/22, which might be too long to wait.

One thing I liked is that they have line level inputs and outputs, with a real crossover, which would be what we'd want with our 2 channel system with older equipment. We'd put it in between our preamp and amp.

For me that would be a step down in performance. I have an Outlaw LFM-1 subwoofer, which has a 300 or 350 Watt amplifier and a 12 inch driver. I'm looking for a similarly sized ported model with a 12 inch driver, but one that has better detail in the 60 to 80 Hz range, where the Outlaw sub is lacking. I'll probably just go with a Rythmik LVX12 at some point. I'm also kind of waiting for this subwoofer to die, but those Bash amps last forever. The subwoofer is 19 years old at this point and still works great.

One suggestion for you is the Rythmik L12. It is a little bit more money that the subwoofer that you mentioned, but I would expect quite a big setup in performance. Still pretty compact too, where it is just about a 14 inch cube.

[James]

Sure, it doesn't go down as low as yours - I can understand that.

We're not really in the market for a sub, I'm just curious about a lot of audio stuff :-) Our Towers go low enough for us (and I don't hear some of the bottom end as it is, although my wife does), and evenly.

But thanks for that suggestion - it looks like a nice sub for music to me, which is most of my listening.

[Pogre]

It isn't clipping, it is ringing / breakup modes. All dome tweeters exhibit a rather harsh break-up mode while RAAL ribbons do not.

There are basically 4 characteristics that I attribute to why RAAL's sound so go.

1. They are generally about 1/50th the moving mass of a dome tweeter. They basically accelerate and decelerate instantaneously, a near perfect transient response.

2. Extremely wide and linear horizontal dispersion

3. No break-up modes (as I described above)

4. There is no voice coil, no former, no surround - the only moving part is the resonating diaphragm itself, that combined with the extremely low mass = practically zero stored energy.

Right, I've pored over your comparisons between the RAAL and the NrT tweeter and think you make a great objective case for the reasons behind some of the magic of the RAALs. Like everything you mention in this post. There are definitely measurable attributes that explain why they're so preferred.

[Qman]

Well i finally sold some stuff and was able to get the E15. Pretty pleased so far.

[Pogre]

I too have looked into the Monolith subwoofers, mainly because Audioholics keeps reviewing them and, at least until recently, they seemed to be one subwoofer company seemed unaffected by inflation. In my living room setup, I'm about ready to retire the Hsu subwoofer and upgrade. I've already upgraded in my theater room with Rythmik's. I love the FV15HP's, but my wife didn't want something so large in the living room. I love the price and performance of the Monolith subwoofers and the group delay as you mentioned, but all of the Monolith subs are just massive and heavy. When Audioholics recently did a preview of the ported dual 10 or 12 inch subs, I was excited at the price and performance. Then I looked at the weight and dimensions and the Rythmik FV15HP, as nearly the exact same base, but the Monoprice subs are quite a bit taller and heavier. The Rythmik subs have a slight bit more output from 20 to 40Hz, if I recall, than the dual 12 inch Monolith sub but the two are close outside of that. But the price of the two subs are nearly the same, so I'd still choose the FV15HP over the Monolith M212. I have as larger room, so I definitely want a ported sub, but even the 10 inch ported models from Monoprice are huge. I saw similar trends across the line of Monolith vs. Rythmik. If you don't mind huge and heavy subwoofers, the Monolith subs seem like a reasonable choice, but I think I'm going to end up with a pair of ported Rythmik subs in the living room too.

I'd say that's the biggest knock with Monoprice. Their subs are huge and heavy, but they do perform.

I have absolutely nothing against Rhythmik. They're legit and make great subwoofers. I could be perfectly happy with a pair FV15HPs.