Wisconsin GTG discussion

[Sonic Ray]

Something about this thread just reminded me of the scene in Boogie Nights where Cowboy (Don Cheadle) is selling hi fi equipment and demos an 8-track cassette of country music. I'll have to find it on youtube and post when I get home for a laugh.

[billy p]

Wow...another vote of confidence for the Sierra Tower.....I almost see a trend here....

[curtis]

Wow...another vote of confidence for the Sierra Tower.....I almost see a trend here....

A familiar type of trend...that some of us have seen maybe 6 or 7...maybe more, years ago.

[davef]

Guys,

Thank you all so much for the support. Yesterday was not a good day for me and I regret publicly venting like I did. I almost always try to stay quiet and remain in the background - as indicated by my rather poor post count on AVS Forum, only 451 posts in about ten years?

Things I heard in confidence over the past few days, combined with what I viewed as unnecessary disrespect rekindled some old very deep wounds from many years ago. Wounds that were serious enough to cause me to come very close to leaving a profession that I love and aside from a few teenage summer jobs, the only career I have ever known. A few of you were there with me when these things occurred and know how it hit me. It seriously took me many years to once again find my passion in this, as girgle hinted at, completely insane industry.

I feel Brandon and Terry really put themselves out there, trying very hard to accommodate everyone, but things simply got too big. Too many people, too many speakers. For an informal GTG, or a party, as I used to call it many moons ago, – the more the merrier. However, scorecards were handed out and the term “shootout” started to be thrown around -- things then changed. Not for the people attending, but for the hundreds if not thousands of people following the event. The problem is that when everything is posted publicly in an audio forum, there is an incredible amount of hype generated and personal biases build hope that a particular model or brand comes out "on top". When that doesn't happen -- things get out of control, and they always do, be that a speaker or subwoofer shootout. It is human nature to need self-assurance, assurance that "I made the right purchase"...

Years ago, I made it our company policy to stop providing products for "shootouts" like these because it is just not worth it in the long run. It is a familiar trend, if for example, our product comes out on top, the other camp or camps are going to find flaws in the procedures, if our products ends up at the bottom, you can expect the same response from our side etc. I am certainly not saying that any or all of the issues in this GTG aren't real (I have found technical problems with many similar types of shootouts in the past), but technical issues can be found in anyone's personal audio system -- always.

Terry, for example, has put in a huge amount of time and expense into optimizing his system and it is something he is most proud of. I have had many conversations with him in the past and he has very specific tastes as to his performance preferences and he also has very good ears such that he can quickly detect things that don't sound right to him... Problems have now been detected in Terry's much lauded system that he was not aware of.

I spent a good 3-4 years of my career troubleshooting transistor based power amplifiers and if a transistor is bad, you can be well assured that you will hear it, especially someone as critical as Terry. Just this past Saturday afternoon I repaired a bass amp (transistor based) for a friend of mine. I am not saying that there is/was nothing wrong with Terry's amp -- my point is that if the GTG never happened, Terry would have never known. However, if Terry and Brandon were comparing two speakers at Terry's place (which has happened many times), and one speaker did not sound right (perhaps the same reported amp distortion heard at the GTG), the immediate consensus from the both of them would be that the speaker doesn't sound quite right or just isn’t up to par, and as I have learned, these results are shared by way of private messages and absolutely influence purchase decisions. Another example, I remember a while back that Terry brought his speakers over to someone else's house to listen. He did not like the way his speakers performed there, stating possible flaws in this persons system. Which system is actually the one with problems? Might have been Terry's but his system is what he is used to listening to and it appeals to him. Our own system becomes our personal reference standard, flaws and all....

Our Sierra Towers performed very well amongst 3rd party attendees (those that do not own any of the brands) and I am not the least bit surprised by this.

In the $2K - $3K price range, I think many consumers expect one brand to simply crush another. As I believe Jim Salk once similarly mentioned, amongst the top-tier ID manufacturers, this is simply not going to happen, regardless of the hype. Salk, Phil, Ascend, JTR, Seaton -- we each have different design philosophies and goals but we all know what we are doing.

My hope is that a few owners of the other brands will recognize the 3rd party results and while I don't expect them to ever recommend Ascend (I would be floored), but to at least not try to influence and change someone’s decision when they are interested in our products.

Thanks again guys!

[davef]

Something about this thread just reminded me of the scene in Boogie Nights where Cowboy (Don Cheadle) is selling hi fi equipment and demos an 8-track cassette of country music. I'll have to find it on youtube and post when I get home for a laugh.

LOL -- That is one of my all time favorite movie scenes. It is classic! It wasn't just the music, but as I remember it, Cheadle also starts to dance to it a bit.

[Sonic Ray]

HaHa, I have the blu-ray from Netflix --was planning to play that as the first "grown-up's" movie in my new theater room (as I remember a fun, high quality soundtrack), but haven't found the time yet after the kid's bedtime. Just the thought of Cheadle starting to dance a little is making me laugh out loud.

There's also a Judge Reinhold scene where he's an inept hi fi salesman, can't quite remember the movie yet. Dave, you must know all these scenes by heart, yes? (Sorry to be off topic--feel free to move this)

[petmotel]

Guys,

Thank you all so much for the support. Yesterday was not a good day for me and I regret publicly venting like I did. I almost always try to stay quiet and remain in the background - as indicated by my rather poor post count on AVS Forum, only 451 posts in about ten years?

Things I heard in confidence over the past few days, combined with what I viewed as unnecessary disrespect rekindled some old very deep wounds from many years ago. Wounds that were serious enough to cause me to come very close to leaving a profession that I love and aside from a few teenage summer jobs, the only career I have ever known. A few of you were there with me when these things occurred and know how it hit me. It seriously took me many years to once again find my passion in this, as girgle hinted at, completely insane industry.

I feel Brandon and Terry really put themselves out there, trying very hard to accommodate everyone, but things simply got too big. Too many people, too many speakers. For an informal GTG, or a party, as I used to call it many moons ago, – the more the merrier. However, scorecards were handed out and the term “shootout” started to be thrown around -- things then changed. Not for the people attending, but for the hundreds if not thousands of people following the event. The problem is that when everything is posted publicly in an audio forum, there is an incredible amount of hype generated and personal biases build hope that a particular model or brand comes out "on top". When that doesn't happen -- things get out of control, and they always do, be that a speaker or subwoofer shootout. It is human nature to need self-assurance, assurance that "I made the right purchase"...

Years ago, I made it our company policy to stop providing products for "shootouts" like these because it is just not worth it in the long run. It is a familiar trend, if for example, our product comes out on top, the other camp or camps are going to find flaws in the procedures, if our products ends up at the bottom, you can expect the same response from our side etc. I am certainly not saying that any or all of the issues in this GTG aren't real (I have found technical problems with many similar types of shootouts in the past), but technical issues can be found in anyone's personal audio system -- always.

Terry, for example, has put in a huge amount of time and expense into optimizing his system and it is something he is most proud of. I have had many conversations with him in the past and he has very specific tastes as to his performance preferences and he also has very good ears such that he can quickly detect things that don't sound right to him... Problems have now been detected in Terry's much lauded system that he was not aware of.

I spent a good 3-4 years of my career troubleshooting transistor based power amplifiers and if a transistor is bad, you can be well assured that you will hear it, especially someone as critical as Terry. Just this past Saturday afternoon I repaired a bass amp (transistor based) for a friend of mine. I am not saying that there is/was nothing wrong with Terry's amp -- my point is that if the GTG never happened, Terry would have never known. However, if Terry and Brandon were comparing two speakers at Terry's place (which has happened many times), and one speaker did not sound right (perhaps the same reported amp distortion heard at the GTG), the immediate consensus from the both of them would be that the speaker doesn't sound quite right or just isn’t up to par, and as I have learned, these results are shared by way of private messages and absolutely influence purchase decisions. Another example, I remember a while back that Terry brought his speakers over to someone else's house to listen. He did not like the way his speakers performed there, stating possible flaws in this persons system. Which system is actually the one with problems? Might have been Terry's but his system is what he is used to listening to and it appeals to him. Our own system becomes our personal reference standard, flaws and all....

Our Sierra Towers performed very well amongst 3rd party attendees (those that do not own any of the brands) and I am not the least bit surprised by this.

In the $2K - $3K price range, I think many consumers expect one brand to simply crush another. As I believe Jim Salk once similarly mentioned, amongst the top-tier ID manufacturers, this is simply not going to happen, regardless of the hype. Salk, Phil, Ascend, JTR, Seaton -- we each have different design philosophies and goals but we all know what we are doing.

My hope is that a few owners of the other brands will recognize the 3rd party results and while I don't expect them to ever recommend Ascend (I would be floored), but to at least not try to influence and change someone’s decision when they are interested in our products.

Thanks again guys!

Dave, I SOOOO much appreciate your insight, and candor! I understand your frustration, I was truly dismayed to read the comment concerning the implementation of the RAAL tweeter in the Towers, something I could not possibly disagree with more.

Terry and I obviously disagree on a basic concept concerning source material. I suggested using the highest quality source recordings, and he feels that he wants to evaluate not so good material as well, to ensure that flaws aren't overly exposed. I actually could not possibly care less how bad a recording sounds, I avoid those like the plague LOL! I went so far as to bring some of my very best SACDs with me, and asked if we could spin a couple of them after the main course, and was informed the OPPO was in the bedroom system so there was no way to do that!? I noticed several instances of dynamic compression apparent in the tracks played, it made it very difficult for me to try and evaluate what I was hearing as a result.

It was frustrating to me to know what a speaker is capable of, and not to hear it in it's best light, how can anything be evaluated well when the signal chain is compromised?

In any case, I enjoyed the overall experience, and enjoyed meeting, and talking with the other audio enthusiasts. Jim Salk was a fascinating personality, sharing many interesting personal experiences. He was out on the patio, close to where I was at as we took the pizza break. This might well have been my favorite part of the experience, as all of us just got to unwind and get acquainted.

I don't really consider the speaker evaluation sheets that were available to be score sheets, they were more to give the folks that wanted to use them a reminder of parameters of the speakers they might want to consider. Joe printed these out and made them available as a courtesy.

Edit: I suppose with the damaged monoblock, it might well be that some of the unpleasant sounds were amp related, although much of my listening was done from the far right hand side where the dynamic compression was still quite obvious. I was on the right hand side couch basically right inline with the right speaker when the JTRs played, and I could clearly hear the high frequencies "beaming" as I moved from center to off center. I liked the picture of the "redo" button posted, this GTG seems to be taking on less significance as time passes.

Jay

[GirgleMirt]

Dave, I SOOOO much appreciate your insight, and candor! I understand your frustration, I was truly dismayed to read the comment concerning the implementation of the RAAL tweeter in the Towers, something I could not possibly disagree with more.

I was actually a bit surprised As I said, this is nothing new, for the last 10 years this kind of thing has been going on! And yeah, when I first posted I didn't really had read far enough for the bit where the towers had implementation problems or whatever... But even then, I mean, it's really not surprising to see such comments, and I wasn't really shocked about them, just the usual...

The thing is... Audio is crazy. You can have 10 people, sitting in the perfect spot in perfect room in front of perfect speakers with perfect amp/source, each listening one at a time, and get responses like: "Best speaker ever! Unbelievable!" and the 2nd "lifeless, not involving" 3rd: "way too harsh, hurts my ears", 4th: "missing sparkle and high end" 4th: "hated this speaker, bloated mids, singer way too back in the mix", 5th: "speaker has no bass whatsoever", 6th: "bloated bass". 7: "hated the hardness of the cd player, would have sounded so much better with a turntable" 8: "too forward presentation" 9: "not forward enough" 10: "sounded ok but nothing special, need tubes, otherwise it sounds like crap"

I mean, this is the reality of audio, where people all too often have messed up tastes/expectations (to them speakers = subjective, not objective...)... Too much bass = good, perfect bass = not enough bass or too much, low bass response = bloated bass... Man...

Then you have a GTG, where the speakers aren't optimally setup, in a particular room which might play better with certain speakers vs others... People aren't sitting in the sweetspoot, some are standing up with their backs to the rear wall, some on the left, I mean... Each person has its subjective taste and expectations, bias towards certain speakers or types of speakers, or brand, sish... How does anyone expect to have realistic results??? It's impossible...

Trouble is expectations. You can't get objective results from a GTG like that... Impossible!!! Anyhow, I think Dave, no need to get stressed or anything about that... Can't say that I know for certain the motivations of some posters, but I'd like to think some of the comments were just badly voiced and of 'honest' intentions... (ex: Didn't really mean speakers badly implemented, simply, something might have sounded off to them at that time... Which most probably has something to do with them than the speakers themselves... What they're used too..) Just listening to one speaker after another can skew things... Listen to a bright speaker for a while, then a neutral speaker, and the neutral will seem to be missing something... Or listen to the same song 20 times on flawed speakers, that's how you'll think the sound should should, and it'll sound off on other speakers... I mean, weird to say, but the human hearing is just plain bad for evaluating audio... Might sound silly, but that's really the problem IMHO... (and that's without taking into consideration all other issues; room/setup/etc.)

Anyhow, but as said, with the politics, agendas, and all... (products pushed by pm & all of that...) Who knows what the intentions are... In the end, can affect a business (with lost sales), I just don't know what to say on that... I guess just that some (hoping many...) can see through that 'game'...

Terry and I obviously disagree on a basic concept concerning source material. I suggested using the highest quality source recordings, and he feels that he wants to evaluate not so good material as well, to ensure that flaws aren't overly exposed. I actually could not possibly care less how bad a recording sounds, I avoid those like the plague LOL! I went so far as to bring some of my very best SACDs with me, and asked if we could spin a couple of them after the main course, and was informed the OPPO was in the bedroom system so there was no way to do that!? I noticed several instances of dynamic compression apparent in the tracks played, it made it very difficult for me to try and evaluate what I was hearing as a result.

It was frustrating to me to know what a speaker is capable of, and not to hear it in it's best light, how can anything be evaluated well when the signal chain is compromised?

Not just that, the more detailed speakers might be able to reproduce the distortion more accurately than other speakers, and that might simply make them sound plainly worst...

Ex: Like glasses, and someone looking at models: One pair of glasses gives you 10/10 vision, so you see all the flaws of a person's skin, another 9/10 making seem the skin smoother and showing less imperfections... Which glasses are better? The one that shows the model's flaws or the one which blurs everything a little bit and makes it appear like they have smooth skin even if they don't? Maybe the problem isn't the glasses in that case but the model's skin??? (analogy, MP3/source = bad skin, speakers = glasses).

It's just plain stupid to demo speakers with compressed/lesser quality recordings... It's ok if it was say one out of 10 recordings, and it's highlighted: "This is crappy MP3 let's see how it sounds!", but for female vocals use a crappy mp3... I mean come on... Maybe not what happened in GTG, but just another possible issue to add to the list... And that's on top of all the other stuff, about the room, listening positions, clipping amp, loud volumes, etc etc. all the other possible problems with the GTG which makes the test 'invalid' as a shootout... (but that's not new, was always the case)


Some of the silly comments by some individual posters (which are often silly like when someone tries to pretend like they can hear baffle step compensation missing or some other 'flaw' they think they can attribute to drivers/crossovers/whatever) and GTG issues aside, what I took away from that GTG is that the Sierras was pitted vs big ID names, speakers costing significantly more, and they held their own. I think that's what most readers will come away with... No need to stress about what 1 person wrote as it's really of not much importance... My impressions after reading was that the Sierras did quite well... FWIW

[petmotel]

It's just plain stupid to demo speakers with compressed/lesser quality recordings... It's ok if it was say one out of 10 recordings, and it's highlighted: "This is crappy MP3 let's see how it sounds!", but for female vocals use a crappy mp3... I mean come on... Maybe not what happened in GTG, but just another possible issue to add to the list... And that's on top of all the other stuff, about the room, listening positions, clipping amp, loud volumes, etc etc. all the other possible problems with the GTG which makes the test 'invalid' as a shootout... (but that's not new, was always the case)

Just to clarify, music tracks were ripped from disc to FLAC files on a media server, so the resulting tracks were exactly as taken from the source discs. Again, average volume level was comfortable, certainly not unreasonably loud.

I had brought a McCoy Tyner SACD with me to play, a Grammy winner from 2004 titled "Illuminations". How ironic in hindsight .

Jay

[petmotel]

I thought it might be prudent to mention why I made reference to the JTRs in this thread. It was not meant as a detrimental comment at all, just something I noticed, as I was very curious about the high sensitivity HT type speakers. Not sure if this is improper forum protocol, I will be happy to remove this content if so.

I have read several times about the proclivity of large cone/compression driven co-axial speakers to exhibit the "beaming" phenomenon. Being as I was seated about dead center of the right speaker when the JTRs were auditioned, it was a simple matter to move on and off axis. When I heard a noticeable shift in the high frequencies, I thought it would be interesting to see the polar response plots of these speakers.

I had originally entertained the idea of trying the JTRs, and PMd a few different folks whose opinion I trusted what they thought, and came to the conclusion this type of speaker might not be optimal for a system mostly used for music. I have pretty much confirmed this to my own satisfaction, ultimately the intended use of a speaker system is an important consideration.

Jay