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Thread: Measurements, EQ, and what we actually hear

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Measurements, EQ, and what we actually hear

    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    What I want is to hear a neutral, accurate reproduction of the source signal.
    Then the first thing you need to do is to immediately stop using your ears to determine this. An accurate reproduction of the source material can not be determined by listening to test tones to try and determine how neutral the response of a speaker is in your room, nor can your own hearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    The question we're discussing is how to achieve that, isn't it? For various reasons, it seems that REW measurements show some large-ish deviations from that at a normal listening position.
    To achieve an actual neutral response in your room, you need measurement software James. REW shows large-ish deviations because those large-ish deviations exist, far worse than you can even imagine by looking at some measurements posted here. Doesn't matter what software or hardware you use.

    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I know the "right" answer to that question is the red line, from some reading. And I can understand (at lower listening levels) why the bass boost sounds neutral. But I don't really understand why the treble should be reduced like that - the Fletcher Munson curve shows decreasing sensitivity at lower levels to the treble as well as the bass.
    What I posted has nothing to do with Fletcher Munson.

    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    And, I can see with some of the REW measurements that the sort of average curve is sloping downwards, which would fit the red line. But they also show peaks and dips that I would think should be audible.
    And this goes back to the very beginning of your questions.... You make wrongful assumptions regarding human hearing. It doesn't appear to me that you are actually open to learning anything and you are set in your ways, which is fine. But I am signing off on this until you actually take the proper steps to learn more. You don't even need to use REW, just read some books on the subject.

    In summary, the goal of a neutral speaker is to reproduce the source material neutrally, keeping deviations from neutral linearity to a minimum. Determining the actual accuracy of a loudspeaker can only be done with proper anechoic measurements. Once you place that neutral speaker in a room, where it is subject to room modes and reflections, all bets are off. At that point, how the speaker reacts in your room is characterized by the directivity of the speaker.

    To further complicate things, humans do not "hear" neutrally. When you think you hear one of your test tones at the same amplitude as another frequency, you are then taking into account the response of your room, the response of your own hearing and the directivity of the speaker. If you were to actually measure this, what you hear as being neutral, would absolutely not "look" neutral to you but would to many people on this forum due to having experience in this subject.

    For example, go online and listen to some white noise. White noise is a flat frequency response, or equal energy for each frequency. It is going to sound thin and bright to you, definitely not neutral to your ears. Now go listen to some pink noise, it will sound far more neutral to you, but is anything but neutral with regard to the frequency response.

    With regard to achieving your goal in your room, you already have very neutral speakers. The next step is to deal with your room, and you can't do that without measuring its acoustics. Once you have that information, you can then work on room treatments or add EQ to deal with room issues. Once measurements confirm that you are achieving a decently neutral response, you will need to see an audiologist, have your hearing tested from 20kHz to 20kHz. They will provide with you an estimated frequency response of your own hearing. You can then use the inverse of this to add that as a target curve for your equalization... At that point, you will have achieved your goal.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Measurements, EQ, and what we actually hear

    Well said, Dave.
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  3. #63
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    Default Re: Measurements, EQ, and what we actually hear

    Ok.

    Thanks for the information in the last 4 paragraphs. I'll try to understand and digest it so I can get closer to my goal. The last step seems like it would be unfair to my wife, who also listens to a lot of music - I'm not sure I'd take that one.

    I have in fact done a fair amount of research since we began the discussion in order to learn more about this topic - maybe that hasn't been apparent in my comments somehow. As you've said, it's a very complex subject. Sometimes it's hard to find the right level of information if you want to learn enough, but not have to become an expert in something complex.

    The apparent mismatch between what's seen and heard is counter-intuitive to me and hard to reconcile, but I'll try to work on that.

    I appreciate your taking the time to try to educate me on the topic.
    Last edited by James; 04-22-2022 at 04:55 AM.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Measurements, EQ, and what we actually hear

    Back to REW - it seems like very complex software.

    For those that use it, is there a reasonably straightforward way to measure the in-room response, and correct it to a neutral one?

    I've looked up a lot about it, but haven't found anything like that yet.

    Something like "REW for Dummies" might be good for me.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Measurements, EQ, and what we actually hear

    AVS Forum - Austin Jerry has a great guide. In case you can't find it, I've copied what I think is most recent to my dropbox. There's also a great thread on REW setup & use on AVS, link below.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/88xevdv15v...rsion.pdf?dl=0

    https://www.avsforum.com/threads/sim...#post-61603823
    * LG OLED65E6P, BenqHT2050A
    * Anthem AVM90, Rogue ST100, VTV Pascal 7 ch
    * Sierra Towers/Horizon (all ELX RAAL), S2EXv2 surrounds, HTM200SEx4 heights, Rythmik E15HPx2
    * VPI Classic 1+ (VTA & Fatboy Gimbal), PE Eagle/RR, VAS NOVA, Soundsmith Paua, Manley Chinook, Bob's Devices SUT, SugarCube 1 mini
    * Oppo 203 & 103D, EverSolo DMP-A6
    * miniDSP Flex, Audiosensibility & Blue Jeans cables, Symposium & Isoacoustics, GIK
    * For RDJ: Anthem MRX720, Sierra LX, Luna Duo v2 center, CXNv2, TBD

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Measurements, EQ, and what we actually hear

    One more REW resource...

    https://www.roomeqwizard.com/#
    * LG OLED65E6P, BenqHT2050A
    * Anthem AVM90, Rogue ST100, VTV Pascal 7 ch
    * Sierra Towers/Horizon (all ELX RAAL), S2EXv2 surrounds, HTM200SEx4 heights, Rythmik E15HPx2
    * VPI Classic 1+ (VTA & Fatboy Gimbal), PE Eagle/RR, VAS NOVA, Soundsmith Paua, Manley Chinook, Bob's Devices SUT, SugarCube 1 mini
    * Oppo 203 & 103D, EverSolo DMP-A6
    * miniDSP Flex, Audiosensibility & Blue Jeans cables, Symposium & Isoacoustics, GIK
    * For RDJ: Anthem MRX720, Sierra LX, Luna Duo v2 center, CXNv2, TBD

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Measurements, EQ, and what we actually hear

    Thanks - that second one looks like it might be at a good level for me.

    Do you think that using an equalizer like the Behringer would create problems, since it has AD/DA conversion and my preamp/amp are both analog?

    Man, 132 pages on "Getting Started" - that's going to take a while to get through.
    Last edited by James; 04-22-2022 at 05:40 AM.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Measurements, EQ, and what we actually hear

    Don’t know, honestly. Guess it depends on quality of components in it and how well they implement. My 2 channel is essentially all analog, although I do have a SugarCube in my vinyl chain (generally direct bypass unless an album doesn’t clean up satisfactorily) and a dSpeaker in the sub line for bass EQ

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Measurements, EQ, and what we actually hear

    That makes sense.

    I'd guess that the DAC in my CA is better than the one in the Behringer, and I'd hate to mess that up. But the Behringer is a 24/96 DAC - maybe that would be good enough.

    I'll have to call Behringer, ask them some questions, and maybe just try it, if there's a decent return policy in case it doesn't work out well.

    After we do the next house projects, one of which is somewhat more expensive now than it would have been last year (covid/inflation).

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Measurements, EQ, and what we actually hear

    There's also some very useful video tutorials on Youtube on REW, namely from Home Theater Gurus, but there are a few others if you do a search. The benefit of using REW is that once you have the room measurement it lets you create EQ curves in it, which can then be saved into a file for uploading into a DSP processor, such as the MiniDSP units. I use a MiniDSP 2x4 HD to EQ/calibrate my dual subs. Nothing above 80hz comes out of it so my mains are not getting a reconverted signal from it, just the subs.
    Ed

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