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Thread: Speaker cables for ELX ribbon

  1. #1
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    Default Speaker cables for ELX ribbon

    Hello dear David/Dina/distinguished forum members,

    I’m a music lover who decided to build a simple and decent 2-ch system. I ended up buying a Marantz 40n integrated and ELX ribbon towers. I don’t wish to go into the virtues of either of these components here; but I’m extremely happy with both and would wholeheartedly recommend them.

    Today I would like to ask you all about cable recommendations. I know it’s unlikely anyone has auditioned this amp/speaker combo with different cables, but I’ve done a lot of research (within the constraints of my scientific understanding) and can share with you some pertinent information that could help narrow it down a bit.

    In terms of the amp, impedance at loudspeaker output is given as 0.1ohms (0.05-0.06ohm, as measured by Hifi News), and damping factor is stated as “over 100”, although Soundstage Network measured it “230, constant across the audio band”.

    In terms of the towers, I will assume impedance and phase curves are known.

    Now, on to cables. Each channel requires 15ft lengths. I currently make use of a pair of the entry level Transparent Audio The Wave 14AWG cables; y’know, the ones that look like they’re digesting a small mouse.

    The sound is fine, but I can’t get over the fact every time I sit in front of them I feel, well, scammed. Me not likes that.

    So I reckon it might be best if I sold them, bought some 10 or 12 AWG Blue Jeans or equivalent and mitigate the loss of $500 while having a better cable, even if only theoretically so.

    Could anyone shed some light on this, based on the data? I would like to determine the best pairing of THIS amp with THESE towers so that not only impedance but also phase and frequency response of these awesome speakers are not inadvertently compromised, risk oscillation issues, etc

    Many thanks in advance!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Speaker cables for ELX ribbon

    Congrats on the new system. I love my ELX V2 ribbon towers (along with all my other Ascend speakers).

    Not data based, but my opinion, is that unless they are really crappy interconnects/speaker wires (e.g. poor finishing between wire & connector, poorly made wire, etc.), it is pretty unlikely to hear a difference in cables.

    Blue Jean speaker wires are perfectly fine. I use them for my Towers & Horizon. Surrounds/ATMOS are Monoprice speaker wire with locking bananas from BJC. I also use both BJC and Audiosensibility RCA interconnects (depending on the component) and Zeskit Maya 8K HDMI cables. All are reasonably priced and well constructed.
    * LG OLED65E6P, BenqHT2050A
    * Anthem AVM90, Rogue ST100, VTV Pascal 7 ch
    * Sierra Towers/Horizon (all ELX RAAL), S2EXv2 surrounds, HTM200SEx4 heights, Rythmik E15HPx2
    * VPI Classic 1+ (VTA & Fatboy Gimbal), PE Eagle/RR, VAS NOVA, Soundsmith Paua, Manley Chinook, Bob's Devices SUT, SugarCube 1 mini
    * Oppo 203 & 103D, EverSolo DMP-A6
    * miniDSP Flex, Audiosensibility & Blue Jeans cables, Symposium & Isoacoustics, GIK
    * For RDJ: Anthem MRX720, Sierra LX, Luna Duo v2 center, CXNv2, TBD

  3. #3
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    Jul 2019
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    56

    Default Re: Speaker cables for ELX ribbon

    +1 on Blue Jeans Cables. I've been a fan of their cables for many years. Solid build quality at a reasonable price.

    My 2.2 channel setup is a mix of Blue Jeans Cables, Monoprice, Worlds Best Cables, and SVS cables. I use SVS for my speaker cables as I like the protective blue & black sleeving. It adds a nice layer of protection if you have cables near a foot traffic area. Just extra peace of mind.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Speaker cables for ELX ribbon

    Quote Originally Posted by laidbach View Post
    Hello dear David/Dina/distinguished forum members,

    I’m a music lover who decided to build a simple and decent 2-ch system. I ended up buying a Marantz 40n integrated and ELX ribbon towers. I don’t wish to go into the virtues of either of these components here; but I’m extremely happy with both and would wholeheartedly recommend them.

    Today I would like to ask you all about cable recommendations. I know it’s unlikely anyone has auditioned this amp/speaker combo with different cables, but I’ve done a lot of research (within the constraints of my scientific understanding) and can share with you some pertinent information that could help narrow it down a bit.

    In terms of the amp, impedance at loudspeaker output is given as 0.1ohms (0.05-0.06ohm, as measured by Hifi News), and damping factor is stated as “over 100”, although Soundstage Network measured it “230, constant across the audio band”.

    In terms of the towers, I will assume impedance and phase curves are known.

    Now, on to cables. Each channel requires 15ft lengths. I currently make use of a pair of the entry level Transparent Audio The Wave 14AWG cables; y’know, the ones that look like they’re digesting a small mouse.

    The sound is fine, but I can’t get over the fact every time I sit in front of them I feel, well, scammed. Me not likes that.

    So I reckon it might be best if I sold them, bought some 10 or 12 AWG Blue Jeans or equivalent and mitigate the loss of $500 while having a better cable, even if only theoretically so.

    Could anyone shed some light on this, based on the data? I would like to determine the best pairing of THIS amp with THESE towers so that not only impedance but also phase and frequency response of these awesome speakers are not inadvertently compromised, risk oscillation issues, etc

    Many thanks in advance!
    Ok - my response is going to likely be controversial. There are 3 characteristics for speaker cable. Resistance, inductance and capacitance. Resistance is not and will never be a factor in speaker cable for a run of only 15 feet. We are talking about milliohms at these lengths so that will never be a factor.

    Inductance, I have never measured any speaker cable to have a high enough level of inductance to have any effect on the transmission of audible frequencies.

    Capacitance, basically the opposite of inductance, ideally - you want low capacitance in a speaker cable, but capacitance is typically measured in the pico Farad range per foot for speaker cables, and for a 15 foot run - also completely inaudible and will have zero effect on your amplifier.

    Some cables designed for musical instruments can be wound in such a way that the produce higher levels of inductance such that they form a mild low-pass filter, gently rolling off the highs, which in turns makes the output sound "meatier", but we are not discussing musical instrument cabling and this is for low-level interconnects, not high-level cabling.

    It is extremely rare for any manufacturer of speaker cable to actually list these characteristics and without that information, one cannot make any determination if one cable is technically better than another.

    My advice to you, go with any stranded and twisted speaker cable you like. You have absolutely nothing to be concerned with for a 15 foot run. Blue Jeans Cable is a good choice.
    .
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Speaker cables for ELX ribbon

    Quote Originally Posted by laidbach View Post
    The sound is fine, but I can’t get over the fact every time I sit in front of them I feel, well, scammed.
    If you spent $500 on speaker cable, that's not an inappropriate feeling. The audiophile world is full of a lot of nonsense, and outrageously expensive cables are high on the list.
    Luna Duo V2 LR, Titan Horizon V2, and Rythmik L22 & L12 in HT, Sierra-LXs in study, S-2EXs and Duo V2 C in bedroom, S-1 NrTs in dining room, S-1s at work, HTM-200s in kitchen. Brother owns CMT-340s and dad has a pair of CBM-170s.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Speaker cables for ELX ribbon

    Thank you so much for all the advice guys. Dave, not so controversial I’d say, but logical.

    To wrap it up, and hopefully gain a better understanding of how the cable might be a synergistic element with the specific components on either side, let me give some specific examples of cables with known specs:

    Cable 1 / Atlas Element 1.25 / £65 for a pair totalling 30ft, terminated:

    Capacitance: 34.25pF/m at 1KHz (308 pF total)
    Resistance: 0.0142Ω/m at 20C (0.13Ω total)
    Inductance: 0.65μH/m at 1KHz (5.85μH total)

    Cable 2 / QED Reference XT40i / £140 for the pair, terminated:

    Capacitance: 35pF/m at 1KHz (315pF total)
    Resistance: 0.008Ω/m at 20C (0.07Ω total)
    Inductance: 0.57μH/m at 1KHz (5.13μH total)

    Cable 3 / Blue Jeans 5T00UP 10 AWG / £133 for a terminated pair totalling 30ft:

    Capacitance: 82pF/m at 1KHz (738pF total)
    Resistance: 0.006Ω/m at 20C (0.05Ω total)
    Inductance: 0.52μH/m at 1KHz (4.68μH total)

    For ease of reference, the amplifier (2x 78W in 8Ω, 2x 128W in 4Ω, as measured) has impedance at loudspeaker output of 0.1ohms (0.05-0.06ohm, as measured by Hifi News), and damping factor is stated as “over 100”, although Soundstage Network measured it “230, constant across the audio band - which sounds a bit weird, but I’m not arguing. In any case, DF always stays higher than 20, so no issues there.

    The ELX towers have impedance ranging from about 3.5Ω (at 100-200Hz) to a peak of 26Ω (at 65Hz) and 17Ω at 2KHz.

    In theory, would it be better to use the relatively low impedance/high capacitance Blue Jeans, or the QED that has comparably low impedance but also lower capacitance? What would the effect of either choice be on frequency response, phase, etc? I do understand that all these might be possibly completely inaudible comparisons, but I would still like to understand the synergy of the components…

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Speaker cables for ELX ribbon

    Quote Originally Posted by laidbach View Post
    What would the effect of either choice be on frequency response, phase, etc? I do understand that all these might be possibly completely inaudible comparisons, but I would still like to understand the synergy of the components…
    "Synergy" would entail that one cable in this application would be better than another. This just doesn't exist.

    As I have tried to explain to you, you are dealing with such low levels of capacitance, inductance and resistance that any effects on any component of your system with any of these cables would not only be inaudible, also not even measurable. In addition, these specifications you listed will continuously change with temperature changes in both the environment and the temp of the copper itself. In addition, how you place the cables will also have an effect on these numbers, but these numbers are practically meaningless. It is like asking someone if adding one single grain of salt on a 16oz steak would make any difference in the taste, or how it cooks vs one grain of pepper.

    Ill give you an example. 1 Micro Farad of capacitance in series with an 8 ohm load will start to create a 6dB/octave roll off at ~ 20kHz. (~40kHz for a 4 ohm load) Even that much capacitance for a speaker would be inaudible.

    As I explained, and as you now know from gathering some cable specs, we are dealing with Pico Farads (a pF is 1/1,000,000 of a uF). Let's look at the BJ cable, where you estimate a total of 783pF for your cable run. (By the way, since each speaker cable is attached to its own amplification stage, you should be using the cable run for that amplifier channel, not the summed total length) But it doesn't matter.

    783pF = 0.000783 uF (micro Farad) Do you understand how small these numbers are?

    783pF will create reactance at approximately 25 Megahertz and above. You need highly specialized equipment to even measure such high frequencies.

    If we were dealing with ethernet transmission, or radar, or microprocessors - then these practically immeasurable differences would be of some importance. We are not, we are dealing with audio amplifiers (a very simple device) and speakers.

    You are drastically overthinking this and you can go with any speaker cable you like without concern.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Speaker cables for ELX ribbon

    Quote Originally Posted by SunByrne View Post
    If you spent $500 on speaker cable, that's not an inappropriate feeling. The audiophile world is full of a lot of nonsense, and outrageously expensive cables are high on the list.
    So true, along with cable risers, exotic fuses, and the like.
    * LG OLED65E6P, BenqHT2050A
    * Anthem AVM90, Rogue ST100, VTV Pascal 7 ch
    * Sierra Towers/Horizon (all ELX RAAL), S2EXv2 surrounds, HTM200SEx4 heights, Rythmik E15HPx2
    * VPI Classic 1+ (VTA & Fatboy Gimbal), PE Eagle/RR, VAS NOVA, Soundsmith Paua, Manley Chinook, Bob's Devices SUT, SugarCube 1 mini
    * Oppo 203 & 103D, EverSolo DMP-A6
    * miniDSP Flex, Audiosensibility & Blue Jeans cables, Symposium & Isoacoustics, GIK
    * For RDJ: Anthem MRX720, Sierra LX, Luna Duo v2 center, CXNv2, TBD

  9. #9
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    Oct 2023
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    Default Re: Speaker cables for ELX ribbon

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    "Synergy" would entail that one cable in this application would be better than another. This just doesn't exist.

    As I have tried to explain to you, you are dealing with such low levels of capacitance, inductance and resistance that any effects on any component of your system with any of these cables would not only be inaudible, also not even measurable. In addition, these specifications you listed will continuously change with temperature changes in both the environment and the temp of the copper itself. In addition, how you place the cables will also have an effect on these numbers, but these numbers are practically meaningless. It is like asking someone if adding one single grain of salt on a 16oz steak would make any difference in the taste, or how it cooks vs one grain of pepper.

    Ill give you an example. 1 Micro Farad of capacitance in series with an 8 ohm load will start to create a 6dB/octave roll off at ~ 20kHz. (~40kHz for a 4 ohm load) Even that much capacitance for a speaker would be inaudible.

    As I explained, and as you now know from gathering some cable specs, we are dealing with Pico Farads (a pF is 1/1,000,000 of a uF). Let's look at the BJ cable, where you estimate a total of 783pF for your cable run. (By the way, since each speaker cable is attached to its own amplification stage, you should be using the cable run for that amplifier channel, not the summed total length) But it doesn't matter.

    783pF = 0.000783 uF (micro Farad) Do you understand how small these numbers are?

    783pF will create reactance at approximately 25 Megahertz and above. You need highly specialized equipment to even measure such high frequencies.

    If we were dealing with ethernet transmission, or radar, or microprocessors - then these practically immeasurable differences would be of some importance. We are not, we are dealing with audio amplifiers (a very simple device) and speakers.

    You are drastically overthinking this and you can go with any speaker cable you like without concern.
    Thank you Dave for taking the time to explain this to me and put to rest the whole matter. It’s a tremendous relief. I think I might as well forget about it, keep the ones I have and go listen to Bach’s oboe concertos with Thomas Indermuhle.

    Best wishes to all from London xx

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