Best sub for S2EX, Music + HT?

[Qman]

I have been playing with my S2EX for a while, but still cannot get the mid/upperbass fullness I have been searching for. First problem is my room. It's 15x22 and the LP is along the long wall, and the L+R are stuck to less than 2 ft out from the opposite wall and only about 5 ft apart. Sorry, but this is what I am stuck with at the moment due to room and WAF, and cannot add any room enhancements, but there IS a huge sectional that is super absorbing.
I have a older Legacy sub with dual 15's, and it still plays good, but only up to about 60Hz or so. I have a Denon 4700 that allows 2 subs, so i have been experimenting with an old cheapo sub that I had, setting the xover at 90Hz for this one, and about 60 for the Legacy sub, this helped tremendously to fill in the upper bass. It seems that going even higher would help more, but this sub gets nasty above about 90. Running Audessy is worthless, as it always sets fronts to large, and wont account for the subs (maybe im doing something wrong?) and when i try to bump the 125 range on the graphic eq, the EXs cant handle it and get all muddy. I have tried a separate 300WPC amp for the L+R, which helped just a little to get more fullness, but not much.

So, I'm questioning which sub will better mate with the EXs? The L22, or the F8 (Not sure what the FM8 difference is?), thinking the F8 could be used for upper bass, with my old Legacy handling the lows. Or is there a better option? I do realize that the upper bass is directional, but that's a secondary concern behind smoothing out the room response. Want to keep it under $1000.
Thanks

[Pogre]

Phew. Okay, lots to absorb here, lol.

You're on the right track. Some good subwoofage will fill in what you're missing. You just need to get things set up.

First, Audyssey. Audyssey does not set your crossovers or decide whether your speakers are large or small. That's determined by the manufacturer and almost always sets the crossover too low or make your speakers large. I don't know why but a friend has a theory that they don't want to tell their customers their speakers are "small"... lol.

Anyhoo, what it does do very well is correct for phase (distance settings), set levels and try to make your frequency response as linear as possible, and in my experience does pretty well with all of the above. I run Audyssey, use careful mic placement and follow the recommended pattern. Then I go into the settings behind it, set my speakers to small and change the crossovers to 80 hz. Done, and my bass is much better than the "before".

If you don't like what Audyssey does with the frequency response you can turn it off and the levels and distances will still remain. Audyssey and room correction in general can be hit or miss, but it has always done very well with distances and levels for me. If you get the MultEQ editor app you can also limit how much correcting it does too. For instance, have it only correct below say, 400 hz for your subwoofers and it will leave your speakers virtually untouched.

Your subs, you have 2 different models? If they're not similar in performance the weaker one will hold the stronger one back. You said you have 2 different low pass (crossover) settings for each sub, 60 and 80 hz respectively? I would bypass the subs' filters using an LFE input or for older models turn the crossover all the way up and let your avr handle that. Also, if there's a significant difference in performance between them I'd just use the best one by itself.

[Pogre]

Which Legacy sub do you have? A dual 15" implies some pretty beefy subwoofage. Seems odd that it would only play up to 60 hz tho... most subs are capable of a full octave higher than that.

*Edit: Yeah boy, if it's anything like these newer models you already have a really solid subwoofer!

https://legacyaudio.com/products/vie...ations-reviews

https://legacyaudio.com/products/view/goliath-xd

Your wife is okay with a hulking dual 15" sub in the room but not okay with your speaker placement? Lol

Anyway, both of those are easily capable up to 120 hz, and the Goliath up to 150 hz. I'd be shocked if your model wasn't similar in performance. Either way if you're looking at a sub to match with it you'll want one with similar tuning and performance. It doesn't have to be a dual 15", but I'd want at least a single 15", and should also be of the same design. Meaning ported or sealed. I don't know what you have now but mixing ported with sealed is tricky and not generally recommended.

[Pogre]

It pays to be familiar with subwoofer models and when it comes to Rhythmik I am not, lol. I see now that the L22 is a dual 12" subwoofer and quite the monster itself! Yeah, I think it'd work well with your Legacy if it's also sealed. If your Legacy is ported I'd be looking at FV15HP/SE, FVX15 or at a minimum the LVX12.

[Qman]

Thanks pogre, sorry for the late reply.
To answer some of the questions:
I have a Legacy Pacemaker Sub....from the mid 90s. I have a sub transmitter/receiver so it sits in an unobscure part of the room, not near the Main L+R, so this is another reason I do not want to send it very hi frequencies, and no, it does not play anything above 60-70Hz very well, in fact the adjustment only goes to 90!
The only reason I brought in the 2nd sub (pretty crappy) is to see how it might fill in above the 1st sub...and it helped. This is why I want to get a sub that plays higher.
The Legacy sub is ported.
If the Rhythmic performs well, I would likely pull the legacy out of the system. But still, i would not try to overlap upper bass, but use the Legacy for only signals below like 50-60 for extra punch. It seems it would be more critical to mesh with the S2ex...which is ported.

Thanks for the info on the MultiEQ App, I will have to try that.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say " Audyssey does not set your crossovers or decide whether your speakers are large or small. That's determined by the manufacturer and almost always sets the crossover too low or make your speakers large" When I run it, it ALWAYS sets crossover and sets large/small....always sets front to large. And what manufacturer are you speaking of? (Denon?)

I think I would prefer a sealed sub, just based on the fact that they are purported to be more suitable to music vs HT. Again, I can still run my old sub, just manually adjusted to a low xover freq to get the bottom octave.

Thanks again
Qman

[Pogre]

Yes, I mean Denon. Or Marantz or Yamaha. Audyssey is not choosing the crossovers or large/small setting. The manufacturer does that and they always set speakers to large and/or set the crossovers too low. My Marantz always sets my Sierra Towers to "large" (my bookshelf speakers too!) and they are not full range speakers. So I go in after running room correction and change them to small. Then I change the crossovers to 80.

I think sealed subs being better for music is more myth than fact. Tho it's a myth that had some grounding in truth a long time ago, but with advances in science, design and computer modeling modern ported subs have come a long way. Today's properly designed ported subs can perform just as well as sealed for music. In fact I've seen some ported subs with even lower group delay (high group delay is a common criticism of ported designs) than some sealed designs.

I think you might have an integration or setup issue. If your sub is capable up to 90 hz then I'd be using a 80 hz crossover. That would definitely help with what you're describing. I have 3 big subs in various locations in my room, 80 hz crossover and no issues with localization.

What you seem to want to do is set up a mid bass module, which is even trickier to set up than a single or even dual subwoofers. How are you planning to do it? Do you have a mic and are familiar with using REW? I would want a calibrated mic and a program to do measurements with to tackle something like that, still wouldn't expect it to be very easy, and I have a lot of experience with integrating subwoofers.

I think if you get your sub (your current one or a new one) integrated properly you won't need a mid bass. Either way it's strongly recommended to not mix ported and sealed. Either both sealed or both ported. Mixing them can be an integration nightmare.

[davef]

Yes, I mean Denon. Or Marantz or Yamaha. Audyssey is not choosing the crossovers or large/small setting. The manufacturer does that and they always set speakers to large and/or set the crossovers too low. My Marantz always sets my Sierra Towers to "large" (my bookshelf speakers too!) and they are not full range speakers. So I go in after running room correction and change them to small. Then I change the crossovers to 80.

I think sealed subs being better for music is more myth than fact. Tho it's a myth that had some grounding in truth a long time ago, but with advances in science, design and computer modeling modern ported subs have come a long way. Today's properly designed ported subs can perform just as well as sealed for music. In fact I've seen some ported subs with even lower group delay (high group delay is a common criticism of ported designs) than some sealed designs.

This is correct, Audyssey simply provides the measured data and the manufacturer of the receiver decides how to interpret it to determine large/small and crossover points etc.

[Pogre]

This is correct, Audyssey simply provides the measured data and the manufacturer of the receiver decides how to interpret it to determine large/small and crossover points etc.

Thank you Dave.

I just wanna add that room correction in general isn't a magic bullet and results can vary wildly depending on setup technique (proper mic placement, low noise floor, etc), room interactions and the speakers themselves. I keep it limited to bass frequencies, below 200 hz or so, using the MultEQ app editor. I also use it to turn off midrange compensation too, even if just correcting for bass.

I find Audyssey most useful for bass. Specifically the independant sub delay/leveling and to a lesser extent the actual filtering. A lot of folks will limit Audyssey to correct below the Schroeder frequency (generally around 400 hz) where the room is in charge.

Just as a free-to-try experiment I'd recommend a fresh calibration by running Audyssey, use all available mic positions with careful placement, then change your speaker settings to "small" (if necessary) and change your crossover setting to 80 hz. Then just give it a listen and see what you think. Make sure you bypass your subwoofer's internal filters by turning the crossover all the way up or use the LFE input to bypass internal filtering altogether. Otherwise you're double dipping and over-filtering.

As far as your concerns with localization goes the rule of thumb is generally to start with an 80 hz crossover because it's still low enough to be non-localizable for humans.

Now you just knowing where it is can influence your perception and make you feel like you can localize it. I know this because I have one nearfield (that and the knowledge that we're very susceptible to confirmation bias) and I swear I can tell where it is sometimes, but every time I've had someone over they've failed to realize there's a big ported dual 12" subwoofer just inches away, behind my couch.

20210530_102352_copy_1512x2016_copy_453x604.jpg

[Pogre]

Is this your sub?

33234.jpg

It certainly looks like a very capable sub, but it's pretty difficult to find much info on it. Being that it's pushing 30 years old you could be due for an update. Thats a long time for a sub.

[Pogre]

and no, it does not play anything above 60-70Hz very well

If that is true then you likely need to replace that sub. A good sub that still performs within spec should be capable of producing clean bass well above 60 hz. This makes me think there's something wrong with your sub.

But still, i would not try to overlap upper bass, but use the Legacy for only signals below like 50-60 for extra punch.

That "punch" is going to come from higher frequencies than 60 hz and below. This is why I recommend trying a higher crossover. If your current sub can't handle it then I'd replace it and start over.