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Thread: Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shazb0t View Post
    Curious, what property of a tweeter do you believe is responsible for this described audio phenomenon?
    This is a good question, and my experience with this is that it is directly related to the piston range of the driver. With a dome that is as stiff as a diamond dome, every audible frequency (to us humans) will be within its piston range. Very stiff domes have this advantage, but - stiff domes will have a bad breakup mode typically in the range of human hearing (often called ringing).

    With the SEAS diamond dome, it is so stiff that it pushes the breakup mode out to a remarkable 60kHz - well out of the range of our hearing. A well designed pure Be dome (don't confuse this with a Be alloy like AlBe) will typically push the breakup mode into the high 20's or lower 30 kHz.

    Testing this is complicated and requires two-tone or even three-tone tests. Since the Klippel NFS is only capable of hitting a speaker with a single tone at a single time, these types of differences will never show up.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mag_Neato View Post
    Dave,

    What would be the main performance gains from having the big RAAL in the monitor? I know it would allow a lower crossover point, and that most likely equates to higher power handling. It would probably provide better midrange clarity since the woofer is not playing as high, right?
    I’m sorry I missed this – lots of information to share regarding this question we get quite often. Might as well provide full detail here so it can be referenced when needed.

    Nobody on this planet has more experience with these 2 tweeters than I do. In fact, the smaller RAAL (the 64-10x) wouldn’t exist without our partnership with RAAL in both the design and overall idea for this tweeter. As good as this tweeter is (and it is exceptional) – it was designed to be a lower priced RAAL, to allow more mainstream listeners to experience this level of performance in more affordable products. This goal was certainly achieved with the release of our Sierra-2 (the speaker this tweeter was originally designed for)

    The RAAL 70-20xram is an entirely different beast. This ribbon has over twice the radiating surface area of the 64-10, and that combined with the huge rear chamber allows the 70-20xram to be crossed at a full octave lower compared to the 64-10. Besides the directivity advantages of lower tweeter crossover points, crossing lower allows more of the critical upper midrange / lower treble response to be handled by the near massless ribbon, rather than a midrange for which this frequency range would typically be outside of a mid’s piston range.

    One of the most critical areas of tweeter design is how to deal with the rear wave. For any tweeter, including ribbons – the soundwave producing diaphragm resonates, producing the same waves towards the back as towards the front. These rear waves are out of phase with the front waves and must be damped/absorbed so that they do not come back out the front. The more of this rear energy that is damped, the more transparent and detailed the tweeter is. In the case of the 70-20xram, it has a massive damping chamber, and the critical out-of-phase energy is completely absorbed.

    Here is a comparison:

    compare1.jpg

    compare2.jpg


    This allows the 70-20 to be more transparent sounding, with greater detail and a more linear overall frequency response, both on-axis and off-axis.

    The ribbon diaphragm itself in the 70-20xram is also not the same as what is used in the 64-10. The 70-20 diaphragm itself is heavily damped, for which the 64-10 is not. I am under an NDA not to publicly disclose the details of this, but the mechanical differences are considerable and unique to the 70-20. This allows the 70-20 to better handle transients and distortion. It basically makes the 70-20 as durable as any dome tweeter by damping transverse waves that would otherwise damage the 64-10 tweeter (a clipping amplifier for example)

    The 70-20xram also has less than half the distortion at 90dB and higher (spl measured at 1 meter) in the usable frequency range of the 64-10 (~3500Hz – 20kHz) . Here are some measurements:

    70-20xram Harmonic distortion (relative).jpg

    64-10x Harmonic distortion (relative).jpg

    The 70-20 also has significantly higher power handling capabilities combined with much higher max SPL. Regardless of crossover point, the 64-10 is not appropriate if you are looking for high SPL capabilities.

    Both tweeters have exceptionally wide and linear horizontal dispersion:

    Here are the contour plots:

    70-20xram Contour Plot.jpg

    64-10x Contour Plot.jpg

    With the 70-20, you can see dispersion starts to slightly narrow compared to the 64-10 starting at about 8kHz. While the 64-10 does have wider horizontal dispersion from 8kHz on up, with the latest accepted research – this type of response is less preferred as we generally want a slightly decreasing upper high frequency response as we get further off-axis. As long as this narrowing is linear, this translates to a less bright in-room response. This is easier to “see” in comparing the estimated in-room response of both tweeters.

    70-20xram Estimated In-Room Response.jpg

    64-10x Estimated In-Room Response.jpg

    Notice the 70-20xram’s estimated in-room response has a gentle and linear high frequency roll off starting at about 8kHz, while the 64-10x is nearly flat, with a slight roll off starting at 11kHz and then flattening out. With an in-room response, this flattening leads to a “brighter” sound.

    You can see further details of this in the horizontal polar response comparison. Note, the 70-20 is as close to having as perfect of a polar response in any tweeter I have ever come across. As off-axis angle increases, the response closely follows the contour of the previous angle. While the 64-10x is good, there are some disparities, including a small amount of “bloom” where energy actually starts to increase at off-axis angles (10kHz range).

    70-20xram SPL Horizontal.jpg

    64-10x SPL Horizontal.jpg

    And finally, with a “true” ribbon tweeter like a RAAL, the only moving mass is the actual radiating diaphragm (the ribbon). There is no voice coil such that the ribbon is the actual conductor of the source signal. Because of this, a true ribbon will present a dead short to the amplifier and a transformer must be used to compensate. The 70-20xram we use has an advanced amorphous core transformer (the “am” in the model number) as compared to the ferrite core transformer used in the 64-10. All transformers have losses and saturation issues but "am" core transformers have considerably less. This translates to improved overall resolution and dynamics in the 70-20.

    As good as the 64-10 ribbon is, the custom 70-20xram we use in our tower and horizon is better in every category, and it should be as it costs over 4x as much. It is simply one of the best tweeters out there at any possible price point.


    *Important Note: all measurements above taken with each tweeter mounted in the same test cabinet and tested with a frequency rage of 3.5kHz to 20kHz, with no high pass filtering / no crossover.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  3. #33
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    Question Re: Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

    Dave,

    Thanks for the detailed pics, information, and Klippel charts displaying the performance gains by substituting the RAAL 70-20XRAM for the 64-10 in a Sierra-2EX, Very Interesting!! Would that then be called a "Sierra 3-EX"?!!

    Curious, what would a Sierra EX with the RAAL 70-20XRAM cost...Inquiring minds would like to know (SWAG method calculation roughly 25% less than the RAAL Towers)?!?

    Ted
    Sierra RAAL V2 Towers, Axiom EP 500 Sub, Morrow SP7 Grand Reference Speaker Cables, Phillips CD880 XLR Balanced Variable Line Output to Orchard Audio Strakrimson 375w/per ch Stereo Ultra GaNFET Amp..... (Dedicated 2.1 Acoustical Music Listening Room)!

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

    Ted,

    Are you asking about purchasing a brand new pair of custom RAAL 70-20 Sierra-EX's, or the cost of having Ascend customize an existing pair of EX's?

    I know those 70-20's are roughly $700/ea. not accounting for any recent price hikes, then you have a custom crossover and the extensive cabinet mods.
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
    * (2) Rythmik F12's
    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

    I don’t want to speculate, but we know the 70-20 is a $700 premium over the NRT on the towers, so I would think it would be in that neighborhood…maybe making them in the $2200-$2600 range?

    Personally I’d love for Dave to add these as a standard offering as I think there’s a market for it. For a long time $1500-2000 has been the “entry” point for real hi-fi. But over the last year we’ve seen traditional offerings go higher (e.g., Kef R3, Revel M106, etc.), so I think people are willing to pay a bit more.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by RMW View Post
    I don’t want to speculate, but we know the 70-20 is a $700 premium over the NRT on the towers, so I would think it would be in that neighborhood…maybe making them in the $2200-$2600 range?

    Personally I’d love for Dave to add these as a standard offering as I think there’s a market for it. For a long time $1500-2000 has been the “entry” point for real hi-fi. But over the last year we’ve seen traditional offerings go higher (e.g., Kef R3, Revel M106, etc.), so I think people are willing to pay a bit more.
    Honestly, I don't know how Dave can still hold the RAAL upgrade on the towers at only $700, but then I do not have insight to his actual costs.
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
    * (2) Rythmik F12's
    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by RMW View Post
    I don’t want to speculate, but we know the 70-20 is a $700 premium over the NRT on the towers, so I would think it would be in that neighborhood…maybe making them in the $2200-$2600 range?

    Personally I’d love for Dave to add these as a standard offering as I think there’s a market for it. For a long time $1500-2000 has been the “entry” point for real hi-fi. But over the last year we’ve seen traditional offerings go higher (e.g., Kef R3, Revel M106, etc.), so I think people are willing to pay a bit more.
    I suppose in retrospect if he goes that way it would be good business and cut some costs.

    I know one thing for certain I am very happy standing on middle ground with nrt domes LR and RAAL for my center channel.

    I know folks marvel at the RAAL for width and depth of soundstage...but for me and I've thought long and hard about this...I doubt me spending upwards of an additional 1k(factoring in shipping + RAAL) would benefit me for a more heavily geared HT application vs. music...the domes give me added bite for watching or streaming action flicks and the clearity, detail of the horizon for dramas and intelligibility in doing so at any volume.
    Last edited by billy p; 01-10-2022 at 10:37 AM.
    Speakers 5.1.2: TitanTowers v2 & STC(RAAL v2), MA CP-WT&CT260
    Sub: Funk Audio 18.0 SantosRW

    Source: Denon X3800H, Oppo BDP 103D, UBK-90 4K & LG B9 65"
    Office 2.0: Philharmonic True Mini(coming-soon), Fosi TB10D via Wiim mini.

  8. #38
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    Question Re: Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mag_Neato View Post
    Ted,

    Are you asking about purchasing a brand new pair of custom RAAL 70-20 Sierra-EX's, or the cost of having Ascend customize an existing pair of EX's?

    I know those 70-20's are roughly $700/ea. not accounting for any recent price hikes, then you have a custom crossover and the extensive cabinet mods.
    Ed,

    My question reference...a New "Sierra-3EX" model!

    I figure compared to the RAAL Tower pair, -$300 (smaller Sierra Cabinets) and -$300 (no mid-ranges) and -$100 (smaller x-overs) and -$100 less shipping cost...(with RAAL and single EX mid/woofer being a wash), between a 20% to 25% lower to-your-door savings over the RAAL Towers!?!

    Dave will have to verify how badly off my speculation is!

    Ted
    Sierra RAAL V2 Towers, Axiom EP 500 Sub, Morrow SP7 Grand Reference Speaker Cables, Phillips CD880 XLR Balanced Variable Line Output to Orchard Audio Strakrimson 375w/per ch Stereo Ultra GaNFET Amp..... (Dedicated 2.1 Acoustical Music Listening Room)!

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by theophile View Post
    Ed,

    My question reference...a New "Sierra-3EX" model!

    I figure compared to the RAAL Tower pair, -$300 (smaller Sierra Cabinets) and -$300 (no mid-ranges) and -$100 (smaller x-overs) and -$100 less shipping cost...(with RAAL and single EX mid/woofer being a wash), between a 20% to 25% lower to-your-door savings over the RAAL Towers!?!

    Dave will have to verify how badly off my speculation is!

    Ted
    I would be curious what that would cost as well. Although the tower's mid would not be a cost, I'm thinking that the EX woofer may cost more than both the tower's woofers combined.
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
    * (2) Rythmik F12's
    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mag_Neato View Post
    I would be curious what that would cost as well. Although the tower's mid would not be a cost, I'm thinking that the EX woofer may cost more than both the tower's woofers combined.
    Iirc...that driver was designed specifically for the S2ex to work alongside with the smaller 64-10 RAAL..in doing so making the S2 redundant.

    I also recall or reading that the curv mid driver would not benefit the towers greatly because of the larger and more internal volume with the tower and use of the 70-20xr.

    A newer tower would be very intriguing idea...thou.
    Speakers 5.1.2: TitanTowers v2 & STC(RAAL v2), MA CP-WT&CT260
    Sub: Funk Audio 18.0 SantosRW

    Source: Denon X3800H, Oppo BDP 103D, UBK-90 4K & LG B9 65"
    Office 2.0: Philharmonic True Mini(coming-soon), Fosi TB10D via Wiim mini.

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