Sierra Towers (RAAL) vs Sierra 2 EX's as front L/R

[Shazb0t]

I am very new here in this forum and just getting ready to own some Ascend speakers, but out of my curiosity, what were your deciding factors to purchase and own Ascend speakers without ASR measurement data? Meanwhile, any reason(s) why you didn't go with other speakers ASR has already reviewed and recommend?

TIA

Well, at the time I was deciding to move into the realm of loudspeakers I began researching how to determine what makes a good loudspeaker. This lead me to Floyd Toole and Harman/NRC research. As for the ASR part of your question, this was before Amir acquired a Klippel NFS and decided to get into loudspeaker measurements and testing. I think that it's now a very valuable resource because it wasn't easy back then to find robust sets of measurements for most speakers.

So, I began by looking at speakers in my price range where the manufacturer provided objective measurement data that could be correlated to the research I was reading. I also was only interested in full size tower speakers which had a matching "full size" center as these would be for listening to music and performing home theatre duty. Harman was obviously a major brand that stood out, so naturally I considered a pair of Revel F208's. I had also seen a lot of buzz about Ascend on AVSforum and I liked that it was an ID company that was publishing speaker measurements with listening windows and off-axis response data. The off-axis response data for the Sierra RAAL Towers showed unusually wide and controlled polar response plots with good controlled directivity. This is something that I believe is important for a high quality speaker. I personally think it's one of the main reasons that the Revel Salon2 has been a yardstick for many for so long.

The Sierra RAAL Towers have a lot of these measurement qualities that are called out in the research and also those that I believe are an indicator of a speaker that most people are going to think sounds great and it does so at a price that undercuts many of these more expensive named options. I also joined this forum and read more about how Dave viewed loudspeaker design and had worked with vendors to create custom drivers specifically for his designs, this intrigued me. The bamboo cabinets, which are a big step up IMO over the cheap MDF/HDF stuff usually in this price category, and the made in America quality were icing on the cake!

So in the end it really came down to a battle between purchasing the F208's and the Sierra RAAL Towers. I kept both on my radar and ended up finding a somewhat local (8 hour round trip) opportunity to purchase a front three Sierra RAAL Tower/Horizon setup for a great price and jumped on it. I've been happy with my choice.

[elan120]

Well, at the time I was deciding to move into the realm of loudspeakers I began researching how to determine what makes a good loudspeaker. This lead me to Floyd Toole and Harman/NRC research. As for the ASR part of your question, this was before Amir acquired a Klippel NFS and decided to get into loudspeaker measurements and testing. I think that it's now a very valuable resource because it wasn't easy back then to find robust sets of measurements for most speakers.

So, I began by looking at speakers in my price range where the manufacturer provided objective measurement data that could be correlated to the research I was reading. I also was only interested in full size tower speakers which had a matching "full size" center as these would be for listening to music and performing home theatre duty. Harman was obviously a major brand that stood out, so naturally I considered a pair of Revel F208's. I had also seen a lot of buzz about Ascend on AVSforum and I liked that it was an ID company that was publishing speaker measurements with listening windows and off-axis response data. The off-axis response data for the Sierra RAAL Towers showed unusually wide and controlled polar response plots with good controlled directivity. This is something that I believe is important for a high quality speaker. I personally think it's one of the main reasons that the Revel Salon2 has been a yardstick for many for so long.

The Sierra RAAL Towers have a lot of these measurement qualities that are called out in the research and also those that I believe are an indicator of a speaker that most people are going to think sounds great and it does so at a price that undercuts many of these more expensive named options. I also joined this forum and read more about how Dave viewed loudspeaker design and had worked with vendors to create custom drivers specifically for his designs, this intrigued me. The bamboo cabinets, which are a big step up IMO over the cheap MDF/HDF stuff usually in this price category, and the made in America quality were icing on the cake!

So in the end it really came down to a battle between purchasing the F208's and the Sierra RAAL Towers. I kept both on my radar and ended up finding a somewhat local (8 hour round trip) opportunity to purchase a front three Sierra RAAL Tower/Horizon setup for a great price and jumped on it. I've been happy with my choice.

Thank you for the thought process. A very well researched path to finalized your speaker choice.

As another curiosity, since there were no ASR measurement data involved in your final speaker purchase decision and you are happy with the result, what prompt you to become an advocate for ASR site out of so many other forums from all over the world?

[MDinno]

If that is what he says, that's more than off-putting. That shows he is very biased or does not have much confidence in his "training". How can you defend someone that doesn't practice what he preaches?

The guy would have gotten a letter from my lawyer a long time ago; and how he flipped with the Denon review shows the guy is a crackhead and that wasn't the only time he did something like that. I wouldn't be so passive about this you have people that don't know any better taking him seriously and hurting your business. That's just my opinion.

[Shazb0t]

Thank you for the thought process. A very well researched path to finalized your speaker choice.

You're welcome. Which Ascend speakers are you considering?

As another curiosity, since there were no ASR measurement data involved in your final speaker purchase decision and you are happy with the result, what prompt you to become an advocate for ASR site out of so many other forums from all over the world?

I'm not an "advocate" for ASR persay. I've just pushed back on the narrative that the Klippel (when used correctly, which I do believe it was in this case) measurements aren't an accurate representation of a speakers sound field. Or that they are less accurate than in-room gated measurements.

I also pushed back on the narrative that not only are they inaccurate but that what's really going on there is a conspiracy against Ascend where they are intentionally posting fake measurements in order to take over the world.. or something! And that we should sue them and get the government to shut down their website. This is of course the plan of action only if Amir doesn't die from his addiction to crack or black tar heroin..

What I am an advocate for is the current audio science research regarding spinorama data, audibility thresholds, listener preference, objective measurement, etc. I post on ASR because I think that fundamentally, that is what is drawing people to that site and the backbone of most of the discussion there. It's very refreshing as opposed to many other audio forums which heavily rely on subjective listening and undefinable descriptors for the "magic" of audio. In the end though I believe you should do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

[Pogre]

I have very mixed feelings about Amir.

I appreciate that someone is putting out detailed, objective measurements for a wide variety of gear. I question whether or not some of them translate to real world listening at the resolutions he's using, but I do believe he's "doing it right".

I think Amir is hyperbolic and makes unnecessary, exaggerated comments. It's the reason I've never actually made an account over there. If I'm curious about something I'll skim through and look at the measurements- with a grain of salt. I much prefer Audioholics or Erin's more professional approach.

I don't think Amir has a vendetta against Ascend. I think he's an equal opportunity douchebag and presents himself like he's the be all end all of everything audio, but he's not singling anyone out that I can tell. He's even got Dennis Murphy redoing crossovers to "fix" things that used to not be issues until Amir. He's measured a lot of Ascend speakers because a lot of folks own them and are willing to send them in for testing. To my knowledge he doesn't request any specific gear, he tests the stuff folks send to him.

I just got caught up on the kerfuffle over the Duo measurements last night, reading the other thread and am not disappointed by Dave's replies thus far. It seems to me he acknowledged and was able to replicate Amir's findings and has been working hard to solve the "problem". I suspect the issue mostly falls below the threshold of audibility unless nearfield, as evidenced by the owner of the speakers in question.

Either way I'm not getting the impression that Dave is blowing it off and making excuses. He's doing his own research, made a massive investment to improve future products and is working on new port configurations as we type.

[elan120]

You're welcome. Which Ascend speakers are you considering?

I am expecting Towers and Horizon with RAAL option as L/C/R, and a pair of S2EX as surround, hopefully around late September or earlier October.

I'm not an "advocate" for ASR persay. I've just pushed back on the narrative that the Klippel (when used correctly, which I do believe it was in this case) measurements aren't an accurate representation of a speakers sound field. Or that they are less accurate than in-room gated measurements.

I also pushed back on the narrative that not only are they inaccurate but that what's really going on there is a conspiracy against Ascend where they are intentionally posting fake measurements in order to take over the world.. or something! And that we should sue them and get the government to shut down their website. This is of course the plan of action only if Amir doesn't die from his addiction to crack or black tar heroin..

What I am an advocate for is the current audio science research regarding spinorama data, audibility thresholds, listener preference, objective measurement, etc. I post on ASR because I think that fundamentally, that is what is drawing people to that site and the backbone of most of the discussion there. It's very refreshing as opposed to many other audio forums which heavily rely on subjective listening and undefinable descriptors for the "magic" of audio. In the end though I believe you should do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

I think the concept of having objective data to back up experience in audio is very nice, and it would be even better if ASR site can help deliver this result all the time. However, it appears ASR is not a site that can consistently fulfill their intended charter to make them a site with reliable results on all product reviews. It may not be the tool or methods they incorporate, it could just be a partial results they are publishing, but if large sum of end user experience cannot correlate with their science based data on certain products, their credibility will drop considerably.

[Pogre]

I am expecting Towers and Horizon with RAAL option as L/C/R, and a pair of S2EX as surround, hopefully around late September or earlier October.




I think the concept of having objective data to back up experience in audio is very nice, and it would be even better if ASR site can help deliver this result all the time. However, it appears ASR is not a site that can consistently fulfill their intended charter to make them a site with reliable results on all product reviews. It may not be the tool or methods they incorporate, it could just be a partial results they are publishing, but if large sum of end user experience cannot correlate with their science based data on certain products, their credibility will drop considerably.

You are going to love your new speakers. I have the ribbon towers and Horizon center and they're amazing. The Horizon is a beast of a center and a perfect timbre match. They can handle some real power too, and maintain good behavior into very high spl.

[Shazb0t]

I am expecting Towers and Horizon with RAAL option as L/C/R, and a pair of S2EX as surround, hopefully around late September or earlier October.

You are going to love your new speakers. I have the ribbon towers and Horizon center and they're amazing. The Horizon is a beast of a center and a perfect timbre match. They can handle some real power too, and maintain good behavior into very high spl.

Agreed, I think you'll be very happy with the Sierra/Horizon RAAL setup!

[elan120]

You are going to love your new speakers. I have the ribbon towers and Horizon center and they're amazing. The Horizon is a beast of a center and a perfect timbre match. They can handle some real power too, and maintain good behavior into very high spl.

Agreed, I think you'll be very happy with the Sierra/Horizon RAAL setup!

Thank you. I am looking forward to have them. It will take a bit of time to have everything setup, but I am sure it will be lots of fun trying different configurations during the setup.

[Pogre]

Thank you. I am looking forward to have them. It will take a bit of time to have everything setup, but I am sure it will be lots of fun trying different configurations during the setup.

The Sierra towers are the first speakers I've had where my wife actually appreciated the upgrade. She's never excited about me getting new gear, but she'd be downright upset if anything were to happen to them. She's been listening to a lot more music lately and sometimes cranks it up pretty loud now.