Finally pulled the trigger.

[Qman]

Ditto on the speaker stands. Placing them on top of those large Advent speakers is creating a baffle surface which will boost the woofer frequencies which can lead to boominess and muddy sound. Same thing applies in your HT setup. Not to mention the large subwoofer sitting so close to the speaker.

If you're playing the same signal thru the sub as the main speaker, how ca this be an issue? After all, you see tons on people placing their bookshelf directly on top of a pair of subs...which is ideal to me since bass becomes directional as freq rises. And with the exs, i think ideally you really want to cross fairly hi, as im discovering.

[djDANNY]

Folks, ive got some apologizing to do. I moved the ex's back down to the HT and on the receiver. Started playing with the sub settings. I then realized i had the sub dial set to180degrees out of phase! Next, i also realized i had sub set xover set too low. (You can set the xover as low as 45Hz). Night and day. My receiver wont xover lower than 100. So obviously i had a gap. Biggest downside is the bass starts to become directional at higher freqs. Still.lacking some detail, but smoothness is much nicer. Would be nice to have some better resolution in the 150-200 range...a problem for smaller woofers i suspect? Something the Legacy Focus excelled at, given 3 12-inch drivers per side!
Now, onto the duo....i pulled it away from the TV about 2 ft, and a lot of the boomyness disappeared. Strange since these are supposedly wall mountable. Question is, how to position it properly without being in the middle of the room? Something an EQ should resolve i guess! I

Next, is my sources. My excellent Linn multi player died a few years ago. So ive been using 2 different dvd players for cds. But their audio outputs can be set for varios audio effects and surround duties. I wasnt sure i had the proper setting on either one. So now im playing a cheap portable player! I need to spend more $$!
To answer Daves question on amp, i was using my Bryston B60 for 2 ch.
Sorry again.

My guess is you have speaker-subwoofer integration issues. Likely your delay settings aren’t optimized and you have poor response in the crossover region. Given that you have no measurement equipment or auto EQ on your receiver this wouldn’t surprise me. Maybe moving the center out fixed some of the delay issues, but you really need measurement gear to get this set up properly and know what’s going on.

[davef]

If you're playing the same signal thru the sub as the main speaker, how ca this be an issue? After all, you see tons on people placing their bookshelf directly on top of a pair of subs...which is ideal to me since bass becomes directional as freq rises. And with the exs, i think ideally you really want to cross fairly hi, as im discovering.

This is incorrect, soundwave reflection and diffraction from the Sierra-2EX has nothing to do with what frequencies the subwoofer is playing. It has to do with the large physical surface that the subwoofer creates sitting right next to the speaker as you have it. Baffle compensation is not needed in a subwoofer as the wavelengths being produced by a subwoofer are typically a minimum of 15 feet long - far longer than any baffle. What mike is trying to explain is that any large surface like that being next to or below the speaker is going to create a very large reflection, as well as throw off the delicate baffle compensation designed into the speaker, and this directly affects midrange.

This is not the same issue I mentioned about placing your speakers on top of the old Advent speakers, that is sympathetic resonance - yet another no-no.

After all, you see tons on people placing their bookshelf directly on top of a pair of subs..

No, the vast majority of audio hobbyists and professionals do not place their speakers directly on top of subwoofers. It is never recommended to do this for the reasons already mentioned, in fact - the ideal subwoofer location is usually never where the speakers are placed.

And with the exs, i think ideally you really want to cross fairly hi, as im discovering.

Not really, I generally recommend crossing the EX's anywhere between 60-80Hz. Unfortunately, your current receiver does not have this capability as 100Hz is the lowest it offers. And with that, assuming you have your subwoofer properly connected to the receiver using the subwoofer output on the back of the receiver, if you set the crossover in the receiver to 100Hz, the receiver will send 100Hz and up to the speakers and 100Hz and lower to the subwoofer (not precisely, but in theory). This means that the low pass filter adjustment on the back of your subwoofer should be set to the highest setting, thus allowing the receiver to set both the frequency and slope for the sub and speakers.

If you get a chance, please post a picture of the back of your subwoofer - it would be most helpful.

The general science of audio, especially speakers - has changed quite a bit since the old "audiophile" days. Major advancements in measurement technology allows engineers and even hobbyists to visualize what they are hearing and with experimentation, fully optimize speaker and subwoofer locations to achieve accurate sound. It simply can not be done by one's ear.

You would benefit greatly by taking some room measurements to see what is going on and help choose the optimum crossover point (although your receiver is greatly limited in this regard as 100Hz is just too high)

I think making the investment into a modern receiver, one with the capability of taking measurements and applying compensation (Audyssey, DIRAC etc.) would greatly benefit you. This is not about applying EQ to the speakers, it is about measuring the acoustics of your room and your chosen placement, and compensating for many of the various room / placement / sub-speaker integration issues you are coming across.

Most of our Sierra-2EX customers only use room-EQ from the Schroeder frequency and downward (about 200Hz and lower) as proper bass, esp with a subwoofer, is most critical to get right. Too much bass in the room and the speakers will sound muddy, less detailed. Too little bass and they will sound bright, harsh - clinical.

[Qman]

No, the vast majority of audio hobbyists and professionals do not place their speakers directly on top of subwoofers. It is never recommended to do this for the reasons already mentioned, in fact - the ideal subwoofer location is usually never where the speakers are placed.

Great info Dave! thank you. However i fail to see the difference between placing the speaker on top of the sub, and a tower speaker with the sub already in the same box? Plus , as bass (and its harmonics) become directional as frequency increases, its always been said to keep the sub close to, or centered between the stereo pair. Or, when using 2 subs, close to L+R. I understand that sub placement affects room interaction, but i also understand you need a centered soundstage. Even with my sub set at 65, i can tell where it is! (now everyone is gonna tell me i need a new sub) Also to note is that my sub max setting is 90Hz.

[white_darren]

However i fail to see the difference between placing the speaker on top of the sub, and a tower speaker with the sub already in the same box?

One was designed to account for a known baffle interaction, the other wasn't.

Even with my sub set at 65, i can tell where it is! (now everyone is gonna tell me i need a new sub) Also to note is that my sub max setting is 90Hz.

I have my single Rythmik E15HP placed 3+ feet to the left of my left main and crossed at 80. Perhaps not ideal but it works for my room and I can not audibly locate it (although it does start to localize with crossover at 90). The reason you can tell where yours is positioned is that it is playing frequencies at and above 90 Hz which are easily localized. This is due to your crossover setup. Since your receiver crossover is set at 100, it is still feeding the sub plenty of signal above 100 due to the crossover having some roll off instead of being a hard cut. Similarly, even though the sub is set for 90, it's still allowing higher frequencies to pass albeit at a lower level.

[Mag_Neato]

Even with my sub set at 65, i can tell where it is! (now everyone is gonna tell me i need a new sub) Also to note is that my sub max setting is 90Hz.

I always had sub integration issues until I put my Rythmik into the system. The Direct Servo design is definitely a game changer. I had a friend over to hear the system last year. He has a very sensitive ear and can pick out things I believe he's imagining sometimes! Well, He turned his head around at me with his jaw on the floor. He was amazed that he could not differentiate where the mains stopped and sub took over nor pick out where the sound was originating. I use an 80hz crossover.

[tkrae11]

Even with my sub set at 65, i can tell where it is! (now everyone is gonna tell me i need a new sub) Also to note is that my sub max setting is 90Hz.

Don't underestimate the power of the mind-- When you know where the sub is placed because you can see it, the brain can make you think sounds are coming from that direction.

Also, sounds don't usually come from the sub only, but from the main speakers + the sub, the higher frequency sounds that are produced from the main speakers will be localized and can make you think the sub is also in that direction.

Also, your sub could be making noises that it shouldn't and those noises might be localized.

There could be other reasons too, but that's what I can think of.

-Tom K

[Qman]

One was designed to account for a known baffle interaction, the other wasn't.

That WAS one thought i had! So by this logic, as long as you put a (narrow) spacer of some sort between the speaker and the sub, it should be ok?...and it is of sufficient height? Of course i cant do that with my sub because its already 4+ft tall.

[white_darren]

That WAS one thought i had! So by this logic, as long as you put a (narrow) spacer of some sort between the speaker and the sub, it should be ok?...and it is of sufficient height? Of course i cant do that with my sub because its already 4+ft tall.

I'm not quite following your spacer suggestion. The baffle effect is really a function of wavelength (hence frequency) relative to the geometry (shape and dimension) of the surface those waves are bouncing off of. Once the drivers and geometry are set, baffle effects can be minimized through careful tuning of the crossover.

EDIT: hopefully obvious is the fact that the only compensation available for external surfaces such as table tops, shelves, walls, furniture and subs is physical placement (distance and/or angle).

[curtis]

However i fail to see the difference between placing the speaker on top of the sub, and a tower speaker with the sub already in the same box?

Just to address this...
Because some manufacturers put a sub driver in a tower speaker does not mean it is the best practice.
As mentioned before, in a room, the best location for the sub is rarely the same as the other aspects of the sound.