200s vs. 170s vs. 340s

[S_rangeBrew]

This may be a totally subjective question, but if there are any objective facts, this should be the forum to find out!

I'm going to have a small, (13ft wide x 16ft long x 8ft high) room in my new house for a home theater. It will have a door, so it can be totally sealed. So that's only about 1700 cubic feet.

I plan on using a nice Infinite Baffle subwoofer to handle the 80hz and below sound.

So my question is this: Since the HTM-200s can go down to 80hz, is there any advantage to getting CBM-170s or CMT-340s? Right now, I'm under the assumption that the sound between 80hz-20khz is the same or close to it on all three of these.

[BradJudy]

There are differences and I think most agree that the difference between 200 and 170 is greater than the one between the 170 and 340, particularly for a smaller room. That, and the fact that the 170s only cost a bit more than 200s, lead me to generally recommend 170s across the front and 200s in the rear if you're looking to save money. This assumes that the size difference is not an issue. I'm sure there will be some other opinions too.

[ClutchBrake]

I'm with BradJudy. If you are trying to get the least expensive setup for your room I'd go with 170s across the front and 200s in the rear. If you wanted to spend a little more money get a 340 center, 170 left and right, 200 rears.

[S_rangeBrew]

I guess I *am* looking at size as a consideration, which is why I'm looking at the HTM-200s. CSW http://tinyurl.com/68nuz has there MC200s which have almost identical specs to the HTM. Probably a good idea to get a pair of each and try them out, huh?

If anyone knows of any other small, wall mountable speakers that go down to 80hz and cost less than $150 each, let me know. I think the Onyx ELTs might fill the bill too.

I'm going to have to live with these for a long time, so I don't mind spending a little time and money trying them out!

[S_rangeBrew]

Also, I read somewhere that Dr. Hsu (you know, the guy who builds some decent subwoofers) prefers the HTM-200s over the CBM-170s. Something about the 200s being more "forward".

[curtis]

Also, I read somewhere that Dr. Hsu (you know, the guy who builds some decent subwoofers) prefers the HTM-200s over the CBM-170s. Something about the 200s being more "forward".

Yup....this is true. I first demo'd Ascends at the Hsu facilities. Dr. Hsu prefers a more forward sound.

[BradJudy]

As you mentioned, the ELTs are another option. They are bigger than the 200s, but smaller than the 170s. You gain a wood finish (and a premium finish extra cost option) but you lose the mounting screw threads that the Ascends have. These trade-offs depend on your decor/tastes and how you wanted to mount them. If you're looking at using omnimount style mounts, the threaded holes are a definite plus.

[S_rangeBrew]

I got the HTM-200 pair and have been listening to them for a couple of nights. They are very "clear" compared to the JBL E20s. The E20s sound like they have a cloth over them in comparison.

However, when I listen to the JBLs, most of the sound comes from in between them. I guess you would say, from the middle of the soundstage. With the HTM-200s, some things (like vocals) come from the middle, but with other sounds, it is very easy to tell which speaker they are coming from. I don't know if I like that right now.

Also, even though I have the crossover set at 80hz, when I use the JBLs, they have more bass than the HTM-200s. Once again, I'm not sure what I like better, and will need to play with the subwoofer level to see.

Right now, the build quality and clear sound of the Ascends makes me prefer them over the JBLs, but the imaging and bass issues need to be resolved. Hopefully some setup tweaks will do this.

Anyway, lots of fun. I'll be listening to them a lot more over the next couple of days.

[davef]

Hi S_rangeBrew,

Sounds like you are having some fun

Just wanted to share some thoughts with you...

They are very "clear" compared to the JBL E20s. The E20s sound like they have a cloth over them in comparison.

This is exactly what we were after with the HTM-200. Very distinct, intelligible and detailed sound. You must keep in mind that this is a true satellite speaker, designed to be used with secondary bass reinforcement (subwoofer etc.). While I do not have any first hand experience with the JBLs you mention, these are a ported speaker and their response is listed (from what I managed to find) at -3dB at 68hz. I suspect that cabinet is tuned to around 60-70Hz which in most cases means that there will be quite a bit of output at these frequencies (bumped up), compared with a sealed enclosure.

Using an 80Hz high pass filter will filter the low frequency response, but it is a gradual filter, not a brick wall, meaning that there is still plenty of information below 80Hz that will be reproduced. In the JBL design, the bump in the bass response will still be heard and while this can most definitely be enjoyable, it is not accurate sound reproduction and can become a distraction over time.

when I listen to the JBLs, most of the sound comes from in between them. I guess you would say, from the middle of the soundstage. With the HTM-200s, some things (like vocals) come from the middle, but with other sounds, it is very easy to tell which speaker they are coming from. I don't know if I like that right now.

This is indeed interesting. In most cases, vocals should come from dead center and other instruments should come from off toward one side. Think about how a concert stage or band is setup. The HTM-200s have wide horizontal dispersion so what you might be experiencing is simply an expanded soundstage compared to a tighter one.

However, there are some factors that can wreak havoc; depending on how close to the side walls and how far apart the speakers are from each other, the HTM-200 can benefit from placing them so their tweeters are on the inside (as opposed to the outside). Also, toeing them in about 5 degrees toward the listening position can help "shrink" the soundstage.

Regardless of which speaker better suits your tastes, have fun!!!

[S_rangeBrew]

Hi S_rangeBrew,

Sounds like you are having some fun

Just wanted to share some thoughts with you...

A lot of fun. My wife is helping out too, and actually seems to have a bit better ear than I do. The fact I'm using mostly music she likes (Sade, Nora Jones) to test helps. She doesn't really understand the SPL meter and test tones. She thinks they are annoying and loud. I cannot argue with that.

This is exactly what we were after with the HTM-200. Very distinct, intelligible and detailed sound. You must keep in mind that this is a true satellite speaker, designed to be used with secondary bass reinforcement (subwoofer etc.). While I do not have any first hand experience with the JBLs you mention, these are a ported speaker and their response is listed (from what I managed to find) at -3dB at 68hz. I suspect that cabinet is tuned to around 60-70Hz which in most cases means that there will be quite a bit of output at these frequencies (bumped up), compared with a sealed enclosure.

Thanks for saving me a lot of typing! I was just about to write as an update pretty much what you just said. The HTMs were clearer than the JBLs, without being harsh like the Polk Studio 30s, (which use a cloth dome tweeter like the HTMs, but if you look at the cloth, the HTM dome looks like a much finer weave than the Polk cloth... I don't know if that makes any sense) which is what I was hoping for. Sade sounded much clearer on the Ascends, but still sultry. On the Polks, she was clear, but harsh. On the JBLs, smooth but muffled. None were *bad*, but the differences were clear. Everyone could hear the same thing as me, without any prompting. What I described as "clear" my wife described as "acoustical".

After listening a lot more tonight, I found that what I thought was better bass on the JBLs was actually sounding like extra "boom"... neat special effect at first, but a bit annoying after awhile. This was confirmed with test tones and a RS SPL meter. I tested each speaker, one at a time, at the same distance (about 2 feet). I can tell you that the manufacturing on both is consistent, as both JBLs matched at all tones, and so did the Ascends. What I found was the curves were pretty much the same for both brands, from 1000hz down to 90hz, then the JBL started acting a bit strange. It dropped off more than the Ascend at 80hz, then started going up again... after the x-over point! Here is an Excel Spreadsheet

Using an 80Hz high pass filter will filter the low frequency response, but it is a gradual filter, not a brick wall, meaning that there is still plenty of information below 80Hz that will be reproduced. In the JBL design, the bump in the bass response will still be heard and while this can most definitely be enjoyable, it is not accurate sound reproduction and can become a distraction over time.

Hit the nail on the head.

This is indeed interesting. In most cases, vocals should come from dead center and other instruments should come from off toward one side. Think about how a concert stage or band is setup. The HTM-200s have wide horizontal dispersion so what you might be experiencing is simply an expanded soundstage compared to a tighter one.

However, there are some factors that can wreak havoc; depending on how close to the side walls and how far apart the speakers are from each other, the HTM-200 can benefit from placing them so their tweeters are on the inside (as opposed to the outside). Also, toeing them in about 5 degrees toward the listening position can help "shrink" the soundstage.

I think I made more of this than it actually is. Listening some more tonight, it really wasn't that big a deal. I will take your advice and try different placement, I'm sure they will be fine.

Regardless of which speaker better suits your tastes, have fun!!!

I'm going with the HTM-200s, even though they cost almost twice as much as the JBLs. (Online. At Best Buy, the JBLs cost the same as the Ascends!) The build quality and the support really add a lot of value, but the most important thing is the sound quality. We are going to be listening to these for many years. If you could put a dollar value on sound quality, then multiply it over time, these things will definitly pay for themselves.