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Thread: Thinking of adding a second sub

  1. #1
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    Default Thinking of adding a second sub

    Currently, have one E15HP. Mostly music with occasional movie.
    Listening room is 16x12x11 (11 is average height of ceiling as is tiered).
    Opens to left side to den (~22x20x10) and behind to foyer (12x6x11)/dining room (16x12x11).

    As per title, thinking of going duals. Even out bass response and a bit more output.

    Least expensive option is to add a second E15HP. I may need to place sideways, with driver pointing to side wall about 3' away (which I don't think is an issue). Alternately, would need to slightly rearrange furniture/carpet so driver faces room, which isn't a major issue.

    However, due to footprint/placement options, also considering either dual L22's or dual F8's (Dave has posted elsewhere how great these subs are with Towers). If I changed models, I'd either try to sell my E15 or use it (probably only for movies) by moving it behind/aside seats where I can easily turn amp on/off manually.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by racrawford65; 05-29-2020 at 06:27 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Thinking of adding a second sub

    I have a pair of ported 15s and I don't think my space is as big as yours is...

    Going sealed I think I'd want 3 or 4 of them, or at least a pair of L22s. You have a huge area and a sub sees all of the space open to it. You can get a lot more deep bass output going with ported subs, especially around the port tuning frequency and the whole "sealed is better for music" thing is largely a myth. A well designed ported sub can sound just as good as sealed.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Thinking of adding a second sub

    ported subs are bigger due to design, and have steeper rolloffs. Yes, they have more output at the tuning point.

    FWIW, I have a single F15HP, in a 14'x16'x9' room, and it fills it fine. I want a second to even out response, but don't have a good place for one.

    You do have a big room. Do you feel bass is lacking as far as volume is concerned?
    -curtis

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Thinking of adding a second sub

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    ported subs are bigger due to design, and have steeper rolloffs. Yes, they have more output at the tuning point.

    FWIW, I have a single F15HP, in a 14'x16'x9' room, and it fills it fine. I want a second to even out response, but don't have a good place for one.

    You do have a big room. Do you feel bass is lacking as far as volume is concerned?
    You have a much more reasonable room size for a big sealed sub and I'll bet you're benefitting from some room gain too. My main room is ~30' x 18' and open to another room and a hallway on the right side. Vaulted ceilings too. I need the extra oomph.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Thinking of adding a second sub

    Thanks Pogre and Curtis for the inputs.

    I've not directly compared ported vs sealed Rythmiks, but with their technology, I don't disagree that the ported is probably fine for music.

    But, as Curtis noted, the ported subs are bigger. My preference is smaller footprint as more placement options, IMO, and not as obtrusive in an open-concept floor plan.

    I don't feel bass is lacking at volumes I listen at, nor on the occasion I turn it up a bit. Main driver is to help even out bass response, but duals would provide a bit more output.

    I'll probably give Dave or Dina a call, as well, sometime in the near future. This purchase is a month or so down the road as I just picked up a Step Up Transformer to add to my vinyl setup. It should be here this weekend or early next week. Also ordered the needed second phono cable which should arrive next week and a set of NOS Amperex 7308 tubes for my Chinook.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Thinking of adding a second sub

    Just add a sign to the front door, Like the song ; If the house is a Rockin' Don't bother Knocking, Just Cummon on in. :-)

    I'm still playing with my sub settings. I got a Rythmic LV12F (ported) here that replaced a Velodyne 12 (sealed,servo) and It made a HUGE improvement! I too was very skeptical on going ported but i am so glad i did!
    I was older school when they were boomy and muddy, Dina assured me this wasn't the case with Rythmic and it holds true.
    NO regrets going ported here
    Last edited by audiohead; 05-29-2020 at 09:24 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Thinking of adding a second sub

    Quote Originally Posted by audiohead View Post
    Just add a sign to the front door, Like the song ; If the house is a Rockin' Don't bother Knocking, Just Cummon on in. :-)

    I'm still playing with my sub settings. I got a Rythmic LV12F (ported) here that replaced a Velodyne 12 (sealed,servo) and It made a HUGE improvement! I too was very skeptical on going ported but i am so glad i did!
    I was older school when they were boomy and muddy, Dina assured me this wasn't the case with Rythmic and it holds true.
    NO regrets going ported here
    Exactly. Back in the day it was more guesswork/trial and error and there were some very poor ported designs with huge group delay issues. Boomy and muddy, just like you said. With today's computer modeling and advancements in tech and engineering, most good sub manufacturers have taken the guesswork out and made group delay much less of an issue with modern ported designs. What little there is is mostly in the lower frequencies where one could argue it's not even audible.

    Add to that a lot of sealed subs use a fair amount of EQ in the lower frequencies to make up for the earlier roll off, which adds group delay! Again, I doubt it's audible either. Just sayin'. In my opinion, if you have the room, one should always go ported, and pick a good manufacturer! Rythmik is definitely one of those. I've never listened to a servo sub before but I wouldn't hesitate to buy from Rythmik, just based on reputation and some of the measurements I've seen.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Thinking of adding a second sub

    Quote Originally Posted by racrawford65 View Post
    I don't feel bass is lacking at volumes I listen at, nor on the occasion I turn it up a bit. Main driver is to help even out bass response, but duals would provide a bit more output.
    If you're mostly music, I'm not sure how much you would really benefit from a ported sub. I don't think a ported Rythmik would be an audible compromise with music, I just don't see a real benefit especially when the form factor of the sealed clearly works better for you.

    Do you have audible or measurable nulls/peaks in your primary listening space? I'm going to assume you must otherwise why bother. Have you considered tweaking placement and/or room treatments to even out the bass response? This may or may not be an easier than trying to integrate multiple subs into your room (acoustically or aesthetically).

    We have hard floors with area rugs and it took raising the sub about 18" off the floor to fix our room integration issues - don't think I've ever seen a sub this large not resting on the floor before (excepting the isolation platforms which are only a couple of inches thick and do nothing for floor reflections). I found an 18" cube of wood meant to serve as an end table was almost identical in size to our E15HP and made a very attractive and stable stand for the sub. The stack is also similar in size to my stereo cabinet so the equipment grouping works out well. We've been more than happy with a single E15HP in our listening space since we found the right placement - but we were fortunate to be able to locate a "sweet spot" that didn't compromise our living space. That's not always possible.
    Last edited by white_darren; 05-30-2020 at 08:39 AM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Thinking of adding a second sub

    Quote Originally Posted by white_darren View Post
    If you're mostly music, I'm not sure how much you would really benefit from a ported sub. I don't think a ported Rythmik would be an audible compromise with music, I just don't see a real benefit especially when the form factor of the sealed clearly works better for you.

    Do you have audible or measurable nulls/peaks in your primary listening space? I'm going to assume you must otherwise why bother. Have you considered tweaking placement and/or room treatments to even out the bass response? This may or may not be an easier than trying to integrate multiple subs into your room (acoustically or aesthetically).

    We have hard floors with area rugs and it took raising the sub about 18" off the floor to fix our room integration issues - don't think I've ever seen a sub this large not resting on the floor before (excepting the isolation platforms which are only a couple of inches thick and do nothing for floor reflections). I found an 18" cube of wood meant to serve as an end table was almost identical in size to our E15HP and made a very attractive and stable stand for the sub. The stack is also similar in size to my stereo cabinet so the equipment grouping works out well. We've been more than happy with a single E15HP in our listening space since we found the right placement - but we were fortunate to be able to locate a "sweet spot" that didn't compromise our living space. That's not always possible.
    Well, he would benefit from more headroom and output from a sub that wouldn't need to be pushed as hard for the same performance.

    If smaller form factor won't work, it won't work, I agree. However, I suspect a single sealed 15" sub will to be struggling to pressurize the over 7,000'^3 op is working with. That's an enormous space. What it really comes down to in my mind is, what's more important? Sound quality or aesthetics? I lean toward better sound and I'm lucky enough to have a wife who loves music and understands that the living room is a shared space. We both make concessions when it comes to the living room and I think it's only fair.

    Agree that measurements would help a ton if op has the capability. Sub crawl is also a great way to find a spot your room and sub(s) will play nicely together. It's crude, but effective for sure. Proper placement is huge with audio, maybe even moreso for bass.

    Just for the record, I'm not anti sealed at all. In a smaller room you can even take advantage of room gain. That's a huge space tho, and kinda screams for a pair of ported 15"s or 3-4 sealed subs. That said, 2 is still better than one for sure. You should notice an improvement with even 1 more E15HP. If that does it for you then you're good to go. If you still think you might want more, a third is certainly an option. 1 for nearfield might be pretty sweet actually...

    And this just struck me... if you raise your sub 18" off the floor doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of the smaller profile? I'd think it would draw more attention to it, and actually make it quite a bit taller (bigger) than just getting the ported counterpart?
    Last edited by Pogre; 05-30-2020 at 09:24 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Thinking of adding a second sub

    Putting a ported sub in the same space as the non-ported really does nothing to impact nulls/peaks associated with placement in the room. And he has already indicated he doesn't need any more output, just trying to even out the bass response across his listening area thus the relevant feedback is about room integration not ported vs sealed. My point about about the OP not benefiting as much from ported was that port tuning typically allows the sub to dig a little deeper - something that is typically more relevant to movies than music unless he listens to a lot of organ music.

    I can't speak to everyone's tastes in bass levels but I will say that our single E15HP is capable of providing far more bass than we can stand even though it's operating in an open space of 20k cu ft thus we don't even need to use half of what it's capable of - plenty of headroom there.

    As for raising the sub, I was merely providing food for thought by sharing what worked for us with regard to room integration especially since it's an approach that seems a little out of the ordinary. I'm not suggesting that the OP would find the idea of one sub raised off the floor any more/less acceptable than adding a second sub or that it would even address his room integration issues since every space is different. But it might get the creative juices flowing or be relevant to others reading this in the future. The big thing I was trying to highlight is that multiple subs aren't the only way to deal with room integration issues. Often time it is the most practical but that comes at the expense of having to find enough floor space to house them as well the associated cost.
    Last edited by white_darren; 05-30-2020 at 10:16 AM.

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